I'm not sure if PWT best quality will shine with DACs other than the PWD. I thought the main selling point for the PWT was its mating with the PWD via HDMI I2S connection. A recent review by a British mag showed its SPDIF and USB were inferior to the HDMI connection. Seems like you need to compare the PWT/PWD combo as a unit, lest you lose the synergy. |
thanks for the info Roger. i've got the duo incoming with only a short in-store demo under my belt. was wondering why you wouldn't do a comparison of the PWT with the PWD?. i'm pretty close to a know nothing regarding alot of this stuff, but have read almost everything regarding the PSA duo. just finished the owners manual today. the recommended way to run the PWT is with the PWD via the I2S cables, then directly to the amp. pre-amp is ok if you must (Mr M called it the best way in the video).
again....knowing little about dac's and transports in general, i might have missed something here?. PSA itself might share some of the blame too?. they have made statements implying "it's fine" to hook these piece's up in a variety of ways. however, from what this newbe has gotten out of all his PWT/PWD research is this. as of release, the PWT and PWD are made to work together in a pretty specific way. super high res DVD recordings, native and memory playback, I2S connection, asynchronous clock, digital filters ect...all working together. we'll have to tune in later for additional compatibility (bridge, FLAC, folder access ect...). right now it seems very proprietary to me at least. if the point of this comparison was to prove/disprove PSA's claims of compatibility/versatility ....then i understand the set-up and reason behind it. your judgments are very likely spot on imo. no doubt in my mind that at this point when compared by itself, the PWT couldn't out-shine the Forsell.
it does seem that the set-up available didn't let the PWT "do it's thing". to do so it would need to be hooked up as recommended. that's how my demo was set-up and it went fantastic. plan on hooking it up the same way when mine arrive (with the PSA hdmi silver I2S-12).
kinda like trying to re-create a dream.
wish me luck.
cheers
Lev |
If the PerfectWave transport can only 'shine' if it is connected via I2S to the PWD, why then did PS Audio separate the two and sell them separately for $3k each? I have evaluated the transport for what is is against another unit with the same intended funcionality and I think this is fair. The fact that PS Audio has chosen not to give more emphasis on the quality of the PWT's S/PDIF and balanced digital outputs is unfortunate, but it is what it is.
Yes I will also evaluate the hi-rez DVD-R music material and try to borrow a PWD before I will come to a final conclusion.
And Levy, you may be very happy with the PW combo when you integrate it optimally into your system (as you describe). All I am saying in my post/comparison is that the PWT itself does not sound as good as a high-end transport like the Forsell.
Good luck and share your impressions when you have the combo at hand. |
Hello Roger,
Thank you very much for your experiment. It provided the best assessment of PWT capabilities. The Forsell Transport is one of the best around
Thank you again
Regarding cry that it was not fair - because PWT was designed to work together via I^2 - its pure bull s...
1 - as you said if that would be the case then PS Audio should ethically to sell PWD separately as well as PW Player (i.e. P+D togeter for about $4.5k).
2 - Assuming that in PSA implementation by I^2 provides no or minimum jitter one can extrapolate that results would be better with I^2 - but by how much??? Day/Night? I doubt. Everybody who dealt with digital clocks will tell you that better clock improves sound and noticeably and that's all.
3 - I am not familiar with DACs you used in this experiment but I will assume that they are on the same level as Forsell. If so then
a)Their jitter suppression must be superb thereby futher reducing the possible difference between I^2 and S/PDIF inputs.
b) their power supplies, their analog output stages would be much, much better then relatively cheap PWD output stage and therefore sound should be much better too.
4 - This is my pure speculation and I could be wrong. If I^2 is so much superior to other methods of digital signal transmission then why only PS Audio, company with so far mediocre ("non remarkable" more polite word if you wish) products - as compare to the level of Forsell product - exclusively introduces it. Why not Wadia, Esoteric and few others - accepted leaders for decades in digital world. Must be a good reason and its not the cost, nor technical expertise nor luck of experience. I don;t know the answer but this fact bothers me a lot
Thank you Roger again. Wonderful experiment with multiple observers.
Rafael |
i agree Rodger. if they're gonna sell them separate and make marketing statements regarding alt set-up's...your comparison was 100% fair/valid imo.
just wasn't the camparo/information i was looking for specifically. not knowing alot about transports and dac's in general, i was hoping to see some real world comparisons with the duo against other similar set-ups.
btw...funny you mentioned the transport sound when opening/closing. that was the single biggest negative i remember from my demo.
thanks again for taking the time to report
cheers
Lev |
Just got my PWD last night, and here are my initial impressions.
I have two source connections, a Sony Viao laptop (via USB) for playing a small handful of hi rez files I have and a Cullen Circuits modified Sonos (via Coax) with a 96k upsampled output for all my redbook content. Previously I was using a PS Audio DL3 with Cullen Circuits Level 3 mod. The Cullen Modded DL3 reached much deeper and was much more detailed/cleaner than the stock unit. I preferred it by a wide margin to the Benchmark DAC 1 (too analytical sounding for my tastes) and the stock Slim Devices Transporter (lacking in energy for me). I'm using Nordost power and speaker cables, Transparent Audio interconnects, ProAc 1SC speakers, and a Manley Stingray integrated.
Right out of the box, the PWD is immediately even deeper and wider than the moded DL3 - a bit of a surprise, but a welcome one. The accuracy and detail impressed me too. There were things I was hearing in some of my favorite recordings that I knew were there but wasn't hearing on the DL3. Thinks like the resonation of a drum hit or the pluck of the bass string that got muddied or covered previously was there now. of course, this was especially evident when I went to my hi rez recordings via USB.
The thing that has me the most excited - and was not something I expected - is the lack of fatigue. On first listen, it seemed more laid back than the DL3 and I was worried it wouldn't be lively enough for me. But the more I listened the more I realized it is just a higher quality sound. I listened for about 4 hours with almost no fatigue - something I could never do with the DL3. In retrospect, I think I was interpreting the brightness of the DL3 as the vivid sound I like when in fact I just lacked quality. Because I could hear more, I felt more involved with the PWD than I ever did with the DL3. Assuming that trend holds, I'll be very happy to be able to have more extended listening sessions.
I didn't mess with the filters much, preferring to just let the auto filter do it's thing. However, flipping around them I can clearly hear how someone may find a preference for one over the other to suit their tastes. One rolls off the high end a little quicker, one does a little better job of knocking down the clutter you get with a lot of instruments in the mix, and so on. I might even end up developing a preference based on the type of music I'm playing. Let's face it, I listen to acoustic jazz for different reasons than I listen to pop, prog rock, or classical. And yes, I listen to all of them.
I'm looking forward to eventually replacing my Sonos and Laptop with the Bridge when it comes out. It will probably help me eliminate the last bit of glare and hash I get from the Sonos. And I've never been able to get the AISO driver properly configured for my laptop, so I'm always wondering if I should be getting better there as well.
All things considered, I'm extremely happy with my first few hours. Talk to me in a month and hopefully I'm still giddy. |
who's crying Rafael??. the only times i saw the word "fair" were in rodger's and your post??. i certainly didn't use it or even imply it. sounds like you got a little chip on your shoulder Rafael. it appears you have found the comparison results you were hoping for =)
if you really want to use word "fair" and or "unfair"...that's fine. while the reference set-up in this comparison was configured as recommended or near optimally, the PWT was not. i didn't/won't use the word unfair but will say it was not a *good* comparison if one hopes to find out what the PWT/PWD can do. other then that....i had no problem with the comparison. what i do have a problem with is you saying me or anybody else is crying here. talk about BS! |
Roger; does anyone have experience connecting the PST transport via hdmi into the new Meridian 621 switcher; which claims to have its new aphodizing filter incorporated; then running that back out into a digital Meridian processor. PS Audio's web page states that their hdmi interface is proprietary; and may only work on their DAC unit for optimal sound...
I am using a G-98 into the 621 switcher via hdmi; and noticed a nice improvement; but want to soon audition the PST; and want to figure out best way of incorporating it...hard to use external dacs with Meridian gear; as their processors convert most all signals back to digital anyway...thanks. |
Hello Levy3,
Roger concluded: "...PWT itself does not sound as good as a high-end transport like the Forsell"
In response, you wrote: "...as of release, the PWT and PWD are made to work together in a pretty specific way. super high res DVD recordings, native and memory playback, I2S connection, asynchronous clock, digital filters ect..."
However, transport part of this "specific way" was replicated in Roger experiment in full except the signal was transmitted not by I^2 as recommended by PS Audio. Even if I^2 would be implemented then result for PWT, at best, could be slightly better... nothing more
If my characterization of your objection of stepping out from PS Audio prescribed protocal (as of release, of course ;--) then my deepest apologies.
As self characterized newbie try to distinquish very few, almsot impeccable observations like Roger did from bazzilion of other like above where someone stated that he examined a hansful of hi-rez file using regular USB port which is capable of 16 bit 48 kHz max transmission.
As you can see I am not looking for the budies here but accurate information which Roger provided and this fellow did not. His (probably accurate) observation I attribute in large degree to his faulty methodology and thus almost worthless. I am saying "almost" because others who use noisy computers with non-dedicated UBS port or Sonos as the source and compare to... other PS Audio DAC ( improved by Mr. Cullen or not) should be very clearly happy with his results, and its important and its useful.
All The Best.
Rafael |
no problem Rafael....my original post stated that roger is very likely correct. nothing wrong or unfair about his statements. the only way it could be considered unfair is if PSA was not marketing them as being "fine" hooked up to other equipment in alternative ways. they clearly are so roger's test is as fair as any. as i stated in reply, the PSA duo is very proprietary at this point imo. this in and of itself is a negative thing for many i'm sure. i agree with your idea that selling them as a set would be the best way to go. unfortunately business's don't always do what is best for the consumer. they're after our money for the most part.
regardless of how PSA chooses to sell/market them, i think they were/are made for each other and should be paired to hear their full potential. not doing so leaves alot on the table in my eye's. at my demo, the dealer briefly hooked up an alt connection and i heard a substantial difference instantly(forgot which connection he used...sorry).
in the end....i think we are in agreement. i by no means think either PSA piece's are "the best". with my limited experience.....i couldn't even tell you what the best transport or dac would sound like. those kind of determinations are better made by folks with alot more knowledge then i(like rodger. you and many others around here). i am smart enough to know my own limitations ;-).
i just took offense to your "cry" comment. not a big deal really but here is what i was looking for in a transport only comparison. 1st...use the PSA duo together with the I2S connection and hi res audio. then take the reference transport and plug it into the PTD and do the same. this way....you would be comparing the PWT and the reference transport(forsell) in their corresponding, recommended, optimal set-ups. again...this is only what i personally would like to see/read/hear. not saying it's more fair or a better comparison. that's how i'm buying them so that's what i wanted to see.
shazam- what are your thoughts on the various media types?. have you had a chance to compare redbook, reg cd's, high res dvd, ect... thanks for the write up. look forward to more of your input.
cheers
Lev |
Hello Levy3,
".....use the PSA duo together with the I2S connection and hi res audio. then take the reference transport and plug it into the PTD and do the same. this way....you would be comparing the PWT and the reference transport(forsell) in their corresponding, recommended, optimal set-ups."
Sure, you are absolutely right here. Since I do not own PWD then for me (and people like me) the choice of the DAC has academic interest only - as long as its qigh quality obviously. For people who have or will have PWD, your idea will be much more interesting and more importantly, very relevant. Agree with you - 100% Sorry for miscommunication again.
All The Best
Rafael |
Mribob,
I also have the Meridian HD621 audio processor hooked up to the G68 pre/pro. So I would have loved to run the signal from the PWT into the 621 to use the Meridian's apodizing filters and the upsampling (downsampling for 24bit/172 kHz DVD-R recordings) capability, but the HDMI-type output of the PWT carries an I2S signal that is not compatible with HDMI processing. So this connection does not work. I had spoken with Scott McGowan at PS Audio a few days ago and he confirmed this incompatibility.
Today the DVD-R (HRx format) from Reference Recordings with 24bit/172 kHz music came in and I tried to play it with the PMT. Neither the Audio Synthesis nor the Meridian G68's dac could process this hi-rez signal coming through the PMT. So unless you invest the additional $3k for the PWD or you have a dac that can handle such high resolution formats (are there any out there at this time?), one cannot 'play' HRx material with the PMT.
Interestingly enough my Dell PC's (T7400) drive and sound card together with the Media Monkey player software played the hi-rez DVD-R just fine. Unfortunately the little PC speakers I have connected to the PC do not allow me to appreciate the sound quality of this $45 HRx disc. Maybe I can stream the wav files from the HRx through a Logitech transporter so it downsamples them to 24bit/96kHz and sends the signal to the Meridian pre/pro. Have to try this another time. |
Hello Roger,
"Interestingly enough my Dell PC's (T7400) drive and sound card together with the Media Monkey player software played the hi-rez DVD-R just fine.. "
Whar sound card did you use? There are not too many around which can handle hi-rez files without first downsampling them.
"..you have a dac that can handle such high resolution formats (are there any out there at this time?)"
There are number of them: To match level of Forcell try MSB Technology (price range from $7k to bazillion) or Berkeley Alpha. I am sure there are more but I mentioned once I know that they will do this job...well.
If you will buy PWD (with optional Bridge, it can also work as relatively inexpensive music server of rather high quality - lets give credit where its, as seems to be, due) please post your impressions.
Good Luck.
Rafael |
others who use noisy computers with non-dedicated UBS port or Sonos as the source and compare to... other PS Audio DAC ( improved by Mr. Cullen or not) should be very clearly happy with his results, and its important and its useful. I should point out that my use of the Sonos and laptop are temporary until the Bridge is available - which is the main reason for using the PWD. Because I just plain don't listen to disks anymore (other than vinyl, of course), I decided not to invest in the PWT too. If not for the bridge, I probably would have gone with a Wavelength because their asynchronous USB DACs are the best I've ever heard. I was mesmerized by one at the RMAC last year and spent a good 2+ hours in that room. shazam- what are your thoughts on the various media types?. have you had a chance to compare redbook, reg cd's, high res dvd, ect... thanks for the write up. look forward to more of your input. I have a few albums on both redbook and what I've been able to rip from my DVD-A collection (24 bit, either 48k or 96k). I'm still getting used to the superior redbook sound I'm getting now, so I haven't done a lot of comparison, but what I have done there are some noticeable differences. I notice more resonation with certain instruments for sure. I think what made the biggest impression is the sense of a much bigger and "clearer" stage. I haven't listened enough to pinpoint what is creating it, but it noticeably is different (in a good way). I'm looking forward to collecting some good classical pieces in hi rez - where I believe (hope) it will really shine. Cheers! |
just got my pair hooked up this morning. been running them for about 7 hours now and they're sounding phenomenal. using the high grade PSA IS2 ac-12, silver hdmi and 2 PSA PW AC-5 power cords. the PC's are running to my PSA Quintet which in turn is using a PSA PW AC-10 power cord going to a dedicated 20A line. have 5 XLR IC's to try out but currently have Tera Labs RSC Air 2 connected. other 4 to be tried are Cardas GR's, Acoustic Zen Silver Ref II's, Audio Art IC-3SE and AudioQuest Colorado's. Krell S-300i integrated is what it's all going through. aerial 7b's and velodyn dd12 sub is where everything ends up. it'll take me a while to sort out which IC sounds best.
DAC is set to native and auto filter mode per PSA recommendation. testing music is a wide variety of stuff but mostly rock but some jazz and classical too. hi res dvd in 24/88 and 24/96 was jazz and classical only.
units were packaged nicely and a snap to set-up. went with the silver exterior finish and it looks good. got a laugh out of the white gloves and liked the soft cotten PSA bag each unit was wrapped tightly in. i'm not a huge fan of touch screens. prefer old school buttons but the touch screen's will work fine imo. no flickering and easy to read at least. was glad to hear my transport drawer didn't have the kinda cheap sound the unit i demoed did. opens and closes nicely with a solid sound.
any comments i make regarding the sound need to taken with a grain of salt. i'm new to hi-fi and have very limited experience with other DAC's/Transports. my comparisons were done against a Consonance Turandot CDP that imo....is a decent/nice sounding player(standard cd only).
right out of the box the duo sounded good. i could hear it start improving/opening up after about 3-4 hours. not sure how much "better" it will get but even if it stays right where it is....i'll be plenty happy.
regulare CD's.
biggest difference i noticed right off the bat was soundstage. it is huge!. very tight/extended bass and incredibly smooth top end. mids are crystal clear and without any harshness. the most un-digital sound i've ever heard coming from a digital source. outstanding tonal balance and imaging with great detail as well. at the risk of sounding cliche-ish, i'm things i've never heard before.
high res DVD-RW 24/96 and 24/88
Note: i have no frame of reference what so ever here. it's the first time i've ever played downloaded hi res stuff on my system. again....more grains of salt please.
was totally blow away here. have no clue where to even start so i won't. i'll just say it sounded phenomenal in every sense of the word. have never been exposed to anything like this so i'm speechless. i would have guessed that this was a completely new/different system.....not just a source (and connection) upgrade.
no doubt most of you veterans will need to look deeper then my basic/rudimentary comments. wish i could comment further but again...a mans got to know his limitations =). debates regarding what's ultimately "best" or "better" will be left too those of you who know what "better" is(i don't). this much i can tell you.... when compared to my Consonance cdp, it is MUCH better. i'm in heaven and couldn't be happier
unless something unforeseen comes up....i'm now in a very happy place. need to finish up my IC tests but that's about it. put a fork in me because i'm done for a while. plan on upgrading the krell integrated too separates next year but that's still a ways off. for now...it's time to enjoy the music for me!
cheers
Lev |
Thank you Lev for sharing your observations. I am glad that you like the duo.
Enjoy!
Rafael |
I have just taken delivery on the PW DAC (not even unpacked yet). I will use it for a computer based system, probably with a MacBook. If anyone is trying a similar set up, and has thoughts on implementation (cabling, iTunes or alternative, etc.), I'd be very interested to hear them. Thx! John |
What tweeks have you early owners tried? Power cords (Perfect Wave power cords), audiophile fuses, hdmi cables, cd mats, isolation products? So far I'm very impressed with what I'm hearing as it breaks in. |
i'm hooked up with the PSA I2S-12 solid silver hdmi. did a quick a/b compared to $15 hdmi's i had laying around. as i expected, the I2S-12 added some detail that was fairly obvious right from the get go. didn't go much further into it then that.
also using 2 PSA PW AC-5 power cords connected to a quintet, then an ac-10 power cord to my dedicated 20A line. did not bother to do any testing with the oem cord so i can't comment any further (other then they look really cool =) ).
mine have been running for about 3 days now. noticed a nice change/loosening up the first 24 hours. very subtle changes after that....a touch of added detail and a slightly smoother midrange. |
Jdoris - make sure to get a decent USB cable and try to avoid going over 15 feet (the length USB begins to drop data). Kimber makes a very good cable for about $50 U.S. (6 foot). I haven't listened to a lot, but I didn't really hear much difference between the Kimber and cables in the $400 range. Rip your CDs using Exact Audio Copy (EAC) if possible (PC only), and try to use a player that supports FLAC since it is the most used hi rez format out there (iTunes does not support it). ComputerAudiophile.com has lots of great info for everything you may need.
Sgr - I'm using Nordost cables and an Isotek G2 mini-sub power conditioner. I haven't tried other cables with the PWD but went through a handful with my other DAC. I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting and feel no need to upgrade (yet anyway). I am considering a battery pack power upgrade to the DAC if I find someone who does them with good results - the AC in my house/neighborhood is just atrocious. I'm investigating an all battery powered system at the moment and trying to find the right amp/pre-amp before I jump in with everything else.
One thing I have noticed is that the shelf I have the DAC on is getting a lot of low end reverberations. The PWD is a large unit and when I put my hand on it, I can feel the top of it vibrate with the music and wonder what affect that is having. Obviously, I need to get my components moved to a less vulnerable spot. But I'm going to get some Vibrapods or other isolation disks and make sure the shelf isn't transferring vibrations as well.
I'm having fun experimenting with hi rez files (from my computer until the Bridge is available) and I really like what I'm hearing - especially vocal jazz and classical. I love the convenience of HD Tracks ($15 for 24/96 albums - sweet!). I so hope more stores, labels, and artists follow suit and start releasing their back catalog in digital hi rez. There's little reason to not have it as an option these days.
Have a music filled week-end everyone! |
Has anyone tried plugging the PWT/PWD into a PS Audio powerplant premier or other power conditioner like Shunyata? |
Thanks Shazam. The Mac route seems to present serious software limitations: looks to me like JRiver, MediaMonkey, and Foobar are not readily implemented on a Mac platform. But I've been a Mac person as long as I've been using a computer, and I'm not especially tech-adept, so a change would be pretty difficult. Wonder if I am then stuck with iTunes? I like using it fine, but I've heard concerns about sound quality.
On the USB cords, PSA says as short as possible, but it would be nice to have a bit more length. Have you experimented with lengths? Cryoparts makes a 10 footer for 100 bucks or so (http://www.cryo-parts.com/usb_cable.html). Have heard good things about Locus Design and Ridge Street, but they are pretty dear, esp. as I'm not sure how the setup will look if I upgrade to the bridge.
On a less complicated note, I'm presently using the PW as DAC with a Jolida Underwood Level 1 as transport, and it sounds very appreciably better than the Jolida alone and the Musical Fidelity Underwood Level 2 I traded in on the PW. Since both players sounded pretty good to me, I'm very pleased with the PW, so far.
John |
For what it's worth, I've used both "Itunes" and "Play" software on a Mac. I couldn't detect a difference. I use both toslink and usb connnections. I also cannot tell a difference switching between the two. I use Wireworld Ultraviolet High Performance USB Cable ($56 with shipping) and a Van Den Hul Optocoupler mk. II toslink cable ($119 with shipping)connected to an Airport Express. |
Thanks Develyn50. I'm going to have to make iTunes work, I reckon. I seem to have heard good things about the Wireworld usb cable. J |
Have others using the PW DAC noticed a bit of a "shadow" image on the touch display? I get a sort of half reflection of the volume slider beneath the actual slider. No idea whether this normal (eg, a lighting artifact) or not J |
Just had a chance to test and hear the new large gauge Transparent Audio USB cable. It is awesome! It comes at a standard length of 5m which makes the setup of the units easy and flexible. It is said that it can be run up to 50 feet without loss of sonic quality. The 1-m cable sounds better than the acclaimed Belkin Gold Series and is quite affordable ($90/m). |
Jdoris, the touch panel of the PWT that I had for evaluation was flickering slowly from the get-go. I also saw halos around the images that you might have experienced as "shadow" images. When I returned the unit to PSA I mentioned those observations with the hope they will be addressed in future releases. |
Thanks Rogerwalk: I'll put Transparent on the list, along with Ridge Street, Cryoparts, Locus Design, and Wireworld. Is it my imagination, or do people think upgrades in USB cables tend to make more audible difference than other cabling changes? Certainly lots of strong language on the relevant threads.
Not crazy about the idea of a touchscreen on audio equipment (reminds me of a microwave, or something), but the PW is a handsome piece. I'll try to talk to PSA about the image issue.
John |
one week in and what i don't like about the PWT/PWD. gotta say i'm really enjoying this set-up but a couple of things do rub me wrong.
have always not liked touch screens and i still don't. wouldn't mind it as much if i had a vertical rack and the PWT/PWD were close to eye level. positioned close to knee/thigh level makes the touch screen a p.i.t.a. imo. gimme some good ol fashioned buttons please!
my touch screen did not flicker at first but now, i do notice something akin to a slow fade-out then fade back in. i guess it can be called a flicker but it's in slow motion.
my unit does not like DVD-RW's. it does read them but i get a vary faint transport motor hum. can only be heard during silent portions but it is there. usually goes away after a few songs but i'd rather it not be there at all. was told it has to with the required speed of the transport when reading RW disc's??. it is flawless on regular DVD-R's though.
small grip here but it does take a while to cue up a hi-res dvd. i timed 12-15 seconds which isn't terribly long but something you need to get use to.
a couple of new plus's have also surfaced in the past week.
one thing that is really appealing to me now is the memory reading ability. it's really nice to eject a disc and put in a new one while the music keeps playing. when your cued up to start the new disc is when you can stop the previous one. seamless music playback is kinda nice. it also helps with my wait time mini-grip from above. you can keep listening to a disc while it reads the new one.
the native playback and auto filter mode seem to work best a vast majority of the time (90%) but certain disc's really step out when manually adjusted. these disc's were crap recordings to begin with so it's nice to hear them sound good for once.
just a few observations/opinions i though i'd pass along.
cheers
|
Levy,
We you say "grip", do you mean "gripe(complaint)or a suitcase(used by "oldtime" Jamaican's when speaking "Patois")? |
oooops. i really should preview/proofread my posts first
yep....grip was supposed to = gripe = complaint =)
thx for teaching me a new word too Tab....."patois" (had to look it up)lol! |
Touch Screens flickering: The screen on the units has a light sensor that tries to adjust the brightness of the screen to best match that of the room. I only notice it when I get in front of it to change something and I'm shading it from the light of the window. It doesn't flicker or change any other time for me that I've noticed.
I agree with Lev though - I have the unit on a low rack and like any LCD, it's hard to read at extreme angles - it forces me to bend down to read the settings. I'll be happy for a friendlier remote (iPhone app anyone!) so I don't have to mess with the clumsy current remote or do it by hand. |
i'm not in love with the remote either shazam. specifically, the eject and stop buttons are too small/close to each other for my fat stubby fingers.
one thing i was glad NOT see was another super heavy metal remote (like my s-300i came with). got about 5 dings on my coffee table because of the krell remote. fell on my bare foot a few weeks back and man did it hurt!. you can do some serious damage with these things!.
just went and tested your flicker theory and i think you're right?. even moving the shades a little caused it to fade down and back up. did the same when the dog walked by. will keep an eye on it but i think you're on to something here shazam. thx |
I'm sure the metal remote that came with the original(and sexy)Lens/Genesis amps would've been perfect. |
AFter a two week trial, I am frustrated by the remote. The main problem being the buttons are two small, (you have to turn the lights on to access many functions if you are not sitting close to the touch screens) and it has a very cheap feel for a $3000. component. I'm still evaluating the sound, while breaking it in. Unless there is a big breakthrough, the units do not come close to my reference transport and DAC. |
outstanding system Sgr. love the levinson equiptment!. my pair has been running for 7 days now. haven't noticed much of a change for the last 2-3 days. i'm thinking break in is over but we'll see?. are you still noticing some change/improvement two weeks in?
would love to hear additional comments comparing the PSA Duo to your killer reference set-up.
are you using the I2S connection?
have you compared different formats and resolutions?
any other thoughts/opinions would be fantastic. |
hi sgr:
why do you prefer your reference dac and xport to the ps audio gear ?
do you perceive subtractive or additive coloration coming from the ps audio gear ?
what is your reference dac and xport ? |
Right now, the PS Audio PWT/PWD does have a very relaxing and involving sound (it is fun!), and it continues to improve. However, the Levinson Reference combo seems to have a way of resolving the details better. I here more tones and shading to instruments. So far, (and I don't want to say, it can never have these attributes, as I am still trying new power cords, interconnects, etc) the Levinson sounds more delicate, has better timber and nuances, a leaner but true to the music bass.
I would attribute these differnces to the expense and over engineered Levinson power supplies, a superior transport system, and DACS that are still highly regarded today, even though they are not as fancy or modern as today's era. I guess I would call it execution on the Levinson side.
The reference products were and are something special.
I propose that if a company used the Levinson standard for engineering along with the ideas invented and pioneered by PS Audio, something special indeed might happen in the audio world. However PS Audio wanted a product that many people could afford and the Levinson combo retailed for over $20000. I believe.(which was out of my reach if I hadn't purchased it used). I am using the I2S connection via a Nordost HDMI cable suppled by Music Direct.
I am a fan of the PS Audio combo. I do like it . . .a lot.
Is it a contender for best in the world . . . not sure, still experimenting and evaluating.
Thanks for the compliments on my system, and wait to you see the Helix, I'll be posting new pictures soon! |
Hi Sgr:
What a system! You are a man that have obviously built your components around your room and I can imagine the results.
Patience is a virtue and after all the years, hard work and experience that you have spent your system posted on Audiogon is paying you back the pleasure.
I have been observing and reading all the forum threads about the magic and the dynamics of the sound and how PSAudio PWD/PWT "New Wave" was promising to take the way we listen to music to another level.
I also have been doing this for 30 years and was waiting for some of the dust to settle now I find it interesting and not surprised such comments and testimonial attributes are now surfacing.
Whom better to test true results of components of this nature in the real world obviously the room that you have engineered and developed probably IMHO observes garbage in garbage out. I am saying this in a matter of respect and not in a derogatory way. Example, I have also have been victim of cheap label recordings that sound as described.
Thank you for being directive with Audiogon members and sharing your observation up to this point on the issue. Please give us more feedback, I am sure 2-3 weeks however should be enough patience's critiquing on your fact finding mission.
Congratulation on your other master piece.... Great system!
Enjoy music.
Harold |
thanks for the input sgr. the reason i asked was that i've read the PWT/PWD can run with the big dogs but personally found that very hard to believe. having no experience with super high end stuff (like your awesome system), i wouldn't/didn't have a clue how it would stack up. having paid 4k for my pair (with trade in program), i can't see how it could sound "as good as" stuff in the upper teir's of audio that cost many times more.
in your opinion...does the PWT/PWD have any business at all being compared to your levinson stuff and the like?. your "not even close" comment makes me think they don't.
not to take anything away from PSA, as this is the best sound i've ever owned/experienced. i'm very happy with the purchase and have no regrets what so ever. just wondering if all/some of the hype surrounding the product is true or not.
btw...having a levinson based system would be a dream come true for me. someday i hope!
thanks again |
I am really not trying to dissuade anyone from not liking the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Transport. I like it alot and enjoy listening to it very much. I've read people's comments and reviews and agree with what they say about the sound and feature set. There is another thread on Audiogon where the reviewer compares the PWT to his Forsell transport and I believe he makes some interesting points as well. I think a fantastic system could easily be built around it. I would be willing to bet it sounds better than some of the other highly touted gear. And of course the sound a new piece of gear is system dependent. I am puzzled as to why I'm not hearing what others have claimed. I just assumed that something as well thought out as the PWT/PWD are would more than give my equipment a run for the money. I'm investigating obtaining the new PS Audio HDMI cable and Power Cords to see if that makes a difference. I'm wondering what a difference the PS Audio Power Plant Premier would make?(I've heard rumors that there will be a new power supply available latter this winter that might make it better.)
I'm also breaking it in with care before I finish my evaluations although I did think it sounded great after just a few hours of warmup.
Levy03,
I believe "not even close" in retrospect was a poor choice of words. I'm sorry that my words could raise doubts about your purchase. I would own these two pieces with pride and they may indeed find a "home" in my system yet. I really like the idea of a hard drive based music system and have followed the Perfect Wave developent with great anticipation. You've done a great job building your system and it has taken me more than a few years to develop mine to this point and sometimes I still have doubts if I've made the correct audio choices.
Good listening to all and I'll keep you informed of my findings. |
no apology needed sgr. your candid thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated. i don't think you are dissuading anyone either. you can only tell it like you hear it. as good as the pet/pwd is or may be....hi-fi gear like levinson cost what it does for a reason imo. i've always believed one gets what one pays for (for them most part). if you want a source that sound like $10-$20k....buying something at $4-6k usually won't cut it =)
look forward to hearing more comments from you as things move along and/or come to a conclusion.
thanks again |
This is a good discussion and I think we do need to start setting some reasonable expectations in the community. The PW technology is a 'next gen' approach that is highly convenient and likely represents where a majority of manufacturers are heading. That said, I think a fair label would be that the PW duo may represent the best bang for the buck digital front end for under $10-15k.
However, when you start talking about more than that kind of money, there's some seriously refined engineering going on that we shouldn't expect the PW to compete with. For those spending that kind of money, odds are it's part of a $100k+ reference system with carefully matched components tailored to the way that person listens. Where is that financial and performance divide actually at? I'm guessing it will clear up fairly soon as the reviews begin to emerge.
So, all things being equal, there surely are better combinations out there than the PW duo for many people. But things (money) are never equal and PS Audio is going to satisfy a whole lot of us I think. It certainly is for me. |
agreed Shazam. i've been asking how it stacks up against big money gear out of curiosity.....not expectations of equality.
my pair continues to impress. still in awe of the sound coming out. just got my first 3 DVD-A's and was further blown away by what this duo can do. between these new DVD-A's and all the 192, 96 and 88 downloads i've burned.....my PWT/PWD is exceeding every expectation i had going in. but then i had realistic expectations to begin with.
agree on your value proposition too...getting this sound for 4k (using trade program) is a *huge bang* for the bucks spent imo. |
I should hope that anything costing three to eleven times more would sound better. Just how much better can digital sound though? I just hooked my PWD up and it is incredible right out of the box via coax. Once the Bridge is installed via internal I2S it should sound even better.
I can understand why the newer (latest) and pricey digital gear might sound better - considering the newest technology (i.e.: new filtering systems that specifically address "pre-ringing" - such as Meridian/s new apodising filter; and the newest technology designed to address jitter issues). What I can't really come to believe is how anything with older technology can (or should) sound better (even if they were once the proverbial kings of the hill) - there have been some comparisons to really great - but older (antiquated), gear here. That the new PS gear is only listed at $3,000 (each) is truly something to be very excited about. |
same here I run over 100 hours on DAC and I'm using cheap OPPO player as transport, difference between Cullen's DLINK III and new DAC is huge and you could tell right away without comparing A and B.
I've had many different DACs and CD players before including some exotic Esoteric SACD players etc and I really like what I hear from PS AUDIO Perfect Wave DAC.
I even try USB connection and was playing high res files at 96 point not 48 like someone stated early and they sounded great.
I'm waiting for bridge to see how that would work for me since eliminating transport would probably improve sound a lot.
I never try DUO just because I think bridge will be better option here and it would make great Christmas gift.
I hope that would be available soon. |
I could not imagine anyone who has the funds to fuel hi resolution recordings to pass up the PS Perfectwave Transport and DAC. I'm sorry, but Forsell be damned, it doesn't get any better than this. This combo is as sterile as Kanye West is humble. I have a bunch of fine gear and on the heals of a Modwright Platinum Trasporter and Cary CD player it wouldn't change my bottom line recommendation which is to find a way to hear this pair-- again, If you've got the bucks to feed the habit. Hi resolution and an apodising filter are mesmerizing. I'm honestly guessing a little Forsell repping going on here. "( the Forsell presents voices and instruments more solid in their position"?) Swear to god I'm not a paid political announcement. |
Hello,
I am joining this discussion, because I have recently tested the PWT, and my findings are similar to that of Sgr, but with a different frontend .
My system is: EmmLabs CDSD SE + DCC2 (non-SE), BAT VK600SE, Eben X4 Speakers, ISOTEK Sigmas AC Filter . The cables are AQ Sky balanced interconnect, AQ Everest speaker cables, and AQ NRG-5 power cables for all the equipment.
I have tested the PWT versus the CDSD. The CDSD used the standard 3-glass-fiber ST's, the PWT was connected using Wireworld's SuperNova 5+ V2 glass-fiber TOS .
I was impressed by the PWT. Let's not forget it is a $3000 unit. It has a different presentation than the CDSD: it has slighlty more bass, but is less nuanced. It also lacks some of the atmosphere , some instruments shading and decay .
I started comparing the 2 transports using 2 identical Reference Recordings HDCD discs - Eji Oue's "Mephisto" compilation . I listened to mederate levels. The PWT appeared somehow more "precise" , with a little more bass (but less nuance) and with less ambiance. The images were also smaller.
Since I own the disc "Exotic Dances" from RR in both HDCD and 24/96 from HD_Tracks, I thougt that it will be more interesting to do a shootout with the PWT playing the 24/96 wav's and the CDSD the redbook disc. This time, I listened at wall-shaking levels. On Rimsky-Korsakov's "Dance Of the Tumblers from the Snow Maiden", the differences were not small. Unforunately, the winner was still the CDSD. Yes, the PWT was more precise than it was on redbook, but the precision was not its problem. Compared to the CDSD it lacked authority, it was somehow congested. The CDSD was more relaxed and with more shading, atmosphere and instrument interplay (all this on redbook !!) .
It is the same result as I got comparing the 2 transports on various redbook opera discs.
So as much as I wished to like the PWT because of its ability to play HR files, I am still trying to figure how to make it work properly, since it is blown away by my CDSD . |
I don't want to get involved in a debate about relative sound quality, but I would respectfully suggest trying any other method than Toslink for the digital output from the PWT. It is generally regarded as the worst among all of the provided connection types. |
Actually the PWT/PWD sound best when hooked together with a HDMI cable in native mode. |
