Lewm, Yes that is exactly what I was referring to. I noticed that the new Telos tonearm base is made out of stainless and is very substantial. There must be something to it. Also on the NVS they started with wood armboards then switched to stainless later.
Sean |
Dear Lew&Sean, I have no idea what the best material for an
armboard or armpod is. I am totally innocent reg. any mechanical knowledge. My role or part in this thread become rather intermediary because I know Vidmantas very
well and am in the position to ask him any question you or
other members like. He is a mechanical engineer and inventor with many patents on his name. He used the expression 'acousticaly dead' so I 'translated' this in cork and acrylat because steel- and granite layers are certainly not 'acousticaly dead'. If however stainless steel is indeed 'ideal material' for the purpose he is (pre)supposed to know that I assume. Besides it would be for him much more easy to produce an armpod from steel than to construct and produce this complex sandwich from different material layers. However when I asked Lew if I should ask Vidmantas about those and other issues his answer was: no need to do that.
Regards, |
Dear Nikola, As I recall you asked me whether I wanted you to inquire about Vidimantas' test results using aluminum or carbon fiber arm wands. I did not think it was important enough for you to go to that trouble.
I took my cue from the Kenwood L07D. The Kenwood has a very substantial brass and stainless puck-shaped base into which the vertical shaft of the tonearm is inserted. Then the shaft is gripped firmly into the brass and stainless puck by a ratcheting mechanism. The whole is also permanently affixed with the bearing cup by a very substantial steel girder. This is a subjective judgement, but I believe that one can hear the benefits of this structural strength in the way the L07D plays music. Note that other vintage Japanese tonearms also provided ways to achieve a solid heavy anchor for the tonearm in a material that resembles the tonearm structural material, e.g., Fidelity Research accessory base B60, SAEC accessory "stabilizer", and Micro Seiki stabilizer. There must be something to it. |
Dear Lew, I have no pretention to know much about the
question in casu. But by 'accident' , as you already know,
I also own Kuzma Stabi Reference with an considerable
armbase made from slabs of acrylat and aluminum. I have
no preference for any kind of sandwiches but am not sure if
this apply the other way round. Anyway I think to know that
you have high regards for Kuzma. 'There must be something to it' ,
in those 'sandwiches'.
Regards, |
Nandric, I don't pretend to know what is best either. I was just commenting on what some successful designers are using. I have played with constrained layer design in my plinth and armboard and I believe it works well. That said I am sure the Reed pod should work quite well. I personally prefer not to use arm pods because its too easy to knock them out of alignment unless the pod and TT are super heavy. If I were to use a pod I would notch out holes for the feet of the TT and arm pod in the TT shelf to stop them from moving around relative to each other.
Sean |
Red cedar, Pernambucco and Panzerholz measure well in accelerometer tests but all of the hardwoods offered for the Reed arms measure fairly close to each other. To my ears, the different hardwoods I have compared sound essentially the same. The Western Red Cedar measures the flattest of the woods tested. Does that make it the best choice? Depends what you like. The cedar does sound a little softer. The sound most likely comes from not only having a different dampening factor but cedar has less torsional rigidity. In some systems, that would work fine. I personally think the hardwoods deliver more of what is in the grooves. The other factor to consider is effective mass. If you need a low efective mass arm, the cedar could be your perfect choice.
Aluminum armwands color the sound and IMHO, are a poor choice for an armwand. The aluminum tubing is a good conduit of the vibrations from the cart and the noises from the plinth/armboard mount. You have a super highway there. Of course there are different types of aluminum but most ring like a bell without prodigious amounts of dampening or other forms of regulating energy transfers. We have enough Band-Aids in our hobby. Why not do it right in the first place?
I have heard several other armwand materials and so far, wood rules, at least until we can find a 12" long cactus needle...
Armboard material is a subject for a book, or at least a full chapter in the book of audio. The big question is, what is the armboard connected to? How toxic is the mount? By that I mean how contaminated is the armboard mount with outside and internal vibrations? Aluminum can be tolerable if it is mounted to a "clean" surface but one can do better. If the mounting surface is noisy (toxic) then metal would not be my first choice. If the mounting surface is clean, then a good metal is stainless steel. Bronze and gun metal are also quite good and depending on other factors, could be excellent. For most applications, a medium hard wood is difficult to beat. Panzerholz could very well be the best overall choice for most real world situations. There are several other great choices that most would be surprised at hearing, again depending on to what it is mounted. Back to the salt mines for me.
Sean is right, the base of the Reed is stainless steel. |
Dear Sean, There was no other option with my Kuzma and back then I got my first Basis Exclusive with 2 independent phono-pres. Nobody want to embarrass himself but back then I thought that an armpod (aka 'turret') was much better solution than a 'simple' armboard connected with a 'trembling thing' like LP-12 which I owned before my Kuzma. Every time that I approchead the arm-lift I was 'trembling' myself begging the Almighty (as a pragmatic atheist)to have mercy with my stylus. There is btw no way to decide anything without some premiss which one hopes to be true. Not the deduction is a problem but those damn presuppostions.Anyway I was very
glad to find the Reed and even more so when Vidmantas agreed to 'build' both 'instruments' for me. I am still happy with 'both' but my armpod is more 'durable' then the
tonearms; my 2A is my third. BTW never 'knocked out' the armpod nor the alignment in 'all' those years. You may consider some other hobby with your character(grin).
Regards, |
Nandric, Which hobby should I consider? How about stamp collecting? No, I may get those wet from crying about having no music. ;)
I'm glad you're having success with your setup. Maybe I'm over thinking it too much.
I'm also really enjoying my Reed 3Q alot. Very easy to setup and adjust. It's not to picky about cartridges and sounds great. If the 3P sounds as good as Vetterone says I may have to give one a try.
Sean
|
Gents,
you can see the video for 3P azimuth adjustment on the fly here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaLd7p4HoM
Looks pretty cool! |
Wow - that video is short but perfectly clear. Extremely clever engineering.
Regards, |
I can easily see that to. But they seem to be pivoting the arm tube vs the cartridge/headshell...so is the geometry right here? While my TriPlanar is a manual (not on the fly and not while a record is playing!) it's also pivoting the arm tube.
So is this the best method and can you hear the geometry issues (if true?)? Seems like Reeds other arm does it better and arms like the graham phantom supreme... |
I have a 12" 3P on order. From what I understand the only thing affected by azimuth adjustment on this arm, albeit slightly, is VTA. Now I can tell you in my experience adjusting VTA is no big deal. I'll be happy to post my impressions when I have this finally set up but as of now I'm not too concerned. The Talea is another arm with azimuth on the fly, also not at the headshell, and I haven't heard much debate on that so far. Mountain from a molehill? I'll find out soon enough but I'm not too worried. The other thing to consider here is the bearing on the 3P which is different from the other Reeds and should be a significant advancement. |
As the oldest customer ( in both sense) by the Reed I feel
pretty embarrassed to admit to have just 'discovered' how
ingenious the headshell actually is. Embarrassed also because I made some 'technical suggestions' to Vidmantas about the headshell. My idea was to make the headshell exchangible and adviced Vidmantas to look at the SME 12 and Kuzma for 'inspiration'. He never responded to my suggestions so I thought that his pride as engineer was
'damaged'. Ie technical suggestions from a lawyer...
I now think that he wanted to be polite.
Well the headshell is, so to speak, 'composed' such that
one can use the azimuth part (or do without) and remove
the existing 'cart holder' and put the other one instead.
I just ordered one extra 'headshell' so I can install my
both carts which are intended for my Reed 2 A in advance.
With the azimuth provision on the headshell one can adjust
the azimuth as good as possible and than 'fine tune' by
ear with the azimuth on the fly. Or so I think in a pure
'abstract' way. I wish I owned the 3P already.
Regards, |
well that solves the "mountain out of a mole hill"...sounds like he got it "very" right... |
Nandric,
That sounds like a great plan. If the on the fly is only fine tuning I would guess the other concerns are almost a nonissue. I'll have to admit I've never been one to agonize over azimuth. I usually get it close and just go with it. This arm will make it easy to see the effect of small changes. It may turn me to an azimuth snob. We'll see. |
Dear Jfrech, I am not sure how your comment is intended.
Anyway my own assumptions should not be attributed to Vidmantas. BTW I wrote to him and asked for his comment if my 'interpretation' is wrong or need some added explanation. The azimuth provision on the headshell is optional but on the 'cart-holder' there is, uh, provision for this provision. The headshell 'composition' has 3 parts. One can buy extra 'cart-holders' for other carts and simply exchange carts without the troublesome adjustments. I only recently bought the second cart for my Reed 2A so I had no need to 'study' the headshell earlier. The 'light' was switched on when I 'inspected' the Reed site and noticed the headshells as separates. I had no idea that the headshell was exchangible.
Regards, |
Dear Sonofjim, I am, I think, even worse. I adjust my carts only once ( troublesome enough) and don't bother further about any, uh, parameter. But when I buy an tonearm
I want all the extras. Asking for the reasons in our hobby is only a way of speaking...
Regards, |
Nandric, I was not aware that the headshells were interchangeable. From looking at my 3Q there are two screws to undo the headshell. One that adjusts the azimuth and one that attaches the pivot point. I would think that the screw that goes through the pivot point would be critical. I have not removed the headshell before but if its not installed with the right tork then I'm guessing the sound may be affected. Does Vidmantas specify a tork setting for this screw?
Azimuth adjustment at the headshell is nice but I'm personally more concerned with overall sound quality than the method of azimuth adjustment. If the 3P sounds better then thats what counts to me.
Sean |
Dear Sean, I was also to slow to to see the 'light'.
But you need to unscrew just one screw to exchange the cart
holder. The Allen keys are everywhere obtainable. The azimuth part is a separate option and has no connection with 'cart holder' exchange. You may but do not need to use (or order) the azimuth part. The long screw which keep the cart-holder connected to the armwand needs a very small Allen key. I own many of those because I am a tonearms addict.
Regards, |
Hi nandric, it is sincere. If u can adjust at the headshell, that seems best. And fine tuning by ear can never hurt.... |
Dear Jfrech, For my other tonearms ( the Triplanar and the
Reed 2A are 'fastened' to my Kuzma S.R) I always buy headshells with azimuth adjustment. One never knows in advance how the stylus of some cart is glued or fastened to the cantilever. The cantilevers are also not always as
they should be. So the azimuth provision is a kind of precaution in my opinion.
Regards, |
Vidmantas informed me that my 'reading' of his azimuth construction is correct. His intention was to make 'fine tuning' by ear possible for all parameters. However by
looking at the pictures of the 3P I discovered that not all headshells are 'equal'. Only the 'cart holders' which are fastened to the armwand by the (long) screw are exchangible. Because the azimuth provision on the headshell is optional there are also 3P's with 'one piece' headshell (the other is 'composed' from 3 parts). One should pay attention to this fact when ordering and mention if he wants exchangible kind.
Regards, |
Nandric, Yes after closer examination it's just one screw that holds the headshell on. It appears that the azimuth adjustment screw is in a channel that just slides off after removing the horizontal screw.
Good to know that the azimuth adjustment at the headshell is an option on the 3P. I'm not that worried about it myself though.
Regards,
Sean |
Wondering if anyone has received their 3P yet? |
Sarcher,
Not yet. I did double check to make sure it was actually ordered and indeed it was. Production seems to take a while. I have a Mint tractor specially made for the 12" version ready to go. It seems like orderring any specialty audio product requires a great deal of patience. Still waiting on an Audio Desk cleaner to become available as well. I think both should be worth the wait. |
I saw one at my local dealer. Looks great but have not had a chance to listen to it carefully yet. A friend has one on order as well. Recently I mounted Graham 12 inch on my TW Raven AC-1 and wondered if I should have order 3P instead. At least for my taste, I prefer my 3Q with Air Tight PC-1 Supreme over Graham/Air Tight by quite a bit but I only have Graham installed about 2 weeks ago and the phono cable is new as well so hopefully Graham will continue to improve over the next few months. |
Sonofjim, Vidmantas is actually 'one man company'. So each
tonarm is hand made by him. The only helpt he gets is from his daughter in law who answers the e-mails and helps with accounts. Deed anybody try a second headshell btw? I am waiting for my for two months now. BTW Yip from Mint tractor should be back from vacation at 28-7-12. |
Whether he is a 1 man operation. Or not I think he is pretty efficiency. Bought mine 2P about 2 years ago and recently accidentally damaged thr arm lift & without hesitation he sent me 2 arm lift ( not 2 happy with the 1st replacement ) and he responded promptly without hesitation . 1st class service & very helpful to answer enquiries |
I have one on order as well. I was told mine is in the second batch of orders so I was hoping someone had received theirs allready.
There is a review of the 3P in a German magazine. I was able to translate it with Google translate. Most of the review is spent explaining its features. There was no direct or indirect comparison to any other arm. Maybe about one paragraph talking about sonics. The conclusion was that the 3P is among the best available. Personally I prefer more in depth reviews of audio gear but what are you gonna do?
Sonofjim, I have an Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner and it makes spinning vinyl alot less hassel. It also cleans very well.
Sean |
Sorry to those that have ordered the new 3P Reed. If I had not insisted on a couple of serious changes to the prototype you all would have had your arms by now. Credit to Vidmantas. He fought me for a while but went ahead and humored me. He had to rewrite the programs for the CNC machines. An involved process to say the least when you add in all the testing. I received the first five production arms last week. To sum it up, the wait was and will be worth it for future owners. Listening to one right now and I could not be happier. |
Hi Steve, can I get a email address? I thought I sent you a note via reed's website but I guess it never made it. I live in Austin and heard Arnie's set up (very very nice analog front end!)
I am curious about ordering one of the 3p arms, but have a few questions with table and cabling needs off the arm...
Thanks |
Hi John,
No, I did not receive any forwarded email from you. Sorry. You can reach me
at xactaudio@gmail.com or 208-860-9559
Hope this is not against the rules... |
After some delay, my 12" 3P is here. Mine is in the cocobolo/ruthenium finish. It's a beautiful site to behold. One of the prettiest tonearms I've ever seen. Worth the wait on that ruthenium coating.
I've only had a few mornings with the arm so far but performance looks to be on a reference level as well. Currently I have a Benz LP-s mounted and it controls the cartridge beautifully. I have a couple other high end arms that met their match with the LP-s and couldn't keep it from jumping out of the groove. No such problem here. I really don't know if the LP-s is the ideal match for this arm but it's sounding great and I can finally use this high end cartridge that previously had been set aside.
I'd love to hear impressions from others as well as preferred cartridge matches. I'm not the most apt reviewer. Suffice it to say so far I really love this arm. |
Sonofjim,
I have exactly the same TT (Technics SP-10 MKII), arm (SME 312S and the cart. (Dynavector XV-1S), and am looking at Reed 3P as well.
I just bought a second TT- Verdier La Platine Granito, but haven't installed it yet.
I would love to hear your impression of Reed vs. SME
Thanks |
Hi Sonofjim, Glad to see you at last got your Reed 3P. Coincidentaly I just got the Benz LP S but my objective was to substitute the Ruby 3 S in my Triplanar VII with the LP S. My Reed 2 A got the Miyabi Standard already as 'upgrade' from Phase Tech P 3 G.
I hate those carts changes and adjustments but because you are so happy with your 3P / LP S combo I will try both combinations. For those who are reluctant to mess with cart changes and adjustments such report as yours is a kind of encouragement.
Regards, |
Both arms are well engineered. The 312 s is very easy to set up as I'm sure you know. The lack of a slotted head shell has it's downside too though especially if you want to use a Mint tractor which has to be cartridge specific. The lack of VTA on the fly adjustment is also a slight knock on the SME. It's performance with the PC-1 Supreme is hard to fault but it is one of the arms that had trouble with the LP-s. To be fair, I didn't add the accessory counter weight which would have allowed the counter weight assembly to be moved closer to the pivot and may have stabilized things. I knew the Reed was on the way so waited for it.
The Reed certainly wins the beauty contest.(I do like the more industrial finish of the SME too though). It handles the LP-s right out of the box. In addition to VTA on the fly, azimuth on the fly( which I haven't messed with yet) makes tweaking much easier. I'm still getting this arm dialed in but it's on par with the SME already.
The "new toy" factor is in effect currently but if I could only keep one arm it would be the 3P. I'm fortunate to have them both though and don't foresee parting with either one. |
Hi Maril 555, Coincidentaly I also own the SP 10, mkII and installed one of my FR-64S on the TT. I use this combo as my second system in order to test all those carts that I still buy on ebay. The removable headshell as Henry pointed out is the pre-condition for such adventures. I also use 6 different headshells by which one can regulate the eff. mass of the arm. This way I can 'mess' with whatever carts and their compliance. Fantastic! Thanks Henry! |
Dear Nikola,
I am so convinced by the advantages and flexibility of removable headshells......that only the Copperhead (out if my six tonearms)......does not have this feature.
I notice that the new DaVinci Vertu tonearm now features a removable headshell thanks to Thuchan I believe? |
Dear Henry, There is this Aristotelian teaching reg. the distinction between 'essential' and 'accidental' qualities in objects. You are of course familiar with this obsession
with rigidity by tonearms. I was aware that this teaching was totaly wrong but I also bought only tonearms with fast headshells. The experts and the 'ignorant' you know. But now I can (pre)adjust 6 carts in 6 headshells and switch between them in 4 minutes time. I want mention the 'minimalist' approach reg. the number of soldering 'points' in the tonearm wire. Some even avoid the preamp connectors and solder their ( the best there are) wire in the amp. |
3 years later anyone can comment on REED 3P "12 Cocobolo + ZYX Premium 4D (SB2) combo ? Anybody use that combination ?
Effective mass of "12 Reed w/cocobolo arwand is 19g.
Zyx Premium 4D compliance is 12x10-6 (vertical) & 15x10-6 (horizontal) @ 100Hz (Japan)
Dealers told me it would be a good match but at the same time i've seen other people use the same Reed with Miyajima Kansui which is a totally different cartridge with lower compliance 7x10-6 @ 100Hz (Japan).
How come two cartridges (Zyx & Miyajima) with different compliance can be ideal for one tonearm if their compliance is so different (from 15 to 7, both at 100Hz) ?
Anyone can explain me ?
|
Yes- or for that matter Reed tonearms in general.
Ease of use, sound, QC...? Thanks in advance! |
I can only say I really enjoy my 3P (12 inch cocobola). I use it with the Benz LP-s. Not sure if feedback on that combination helps anyone but it's one of the best I have. I find the 3P to be a beautiful arm and a joy to use. It's actually the only one I have that was able to control the LP-s which IMO is way too heavy for its compliance. Once you keep the stylus in the groove the cartridge really sounds great though. In this price range there are many great arms out there (Kuzma 4 point for one). Anyone who goes for the 3P won't regret it IMO. (Still, I'd love a 4 point in addition). V-12? Lots of great arms out there. |
Thank you Sonofjim for your comment.
I assume people love this tonearm, there are not so many Reeds turns up for sale used (unfortunately). After few years of using EPA-100 on my SP10mk2 i'd love to try something better. Preffer "12 arm for my sp10mk2 in big teak wood blinth (i use thomas schick "12 as a spare arm). It's impossible to google more than a few pictures from sp10mk2 owners showing Reed tonearms on their decks. But very often on Kodo The Beat or Artisan Fidelity versions. Anyone on here use Reed on stock Sp10mk2 ?
Another question is about cable difference:
Standard or C37 Cryo Copper w/Eichman RCA
Do you guys think the Cryo worth 250 price difference?
And main question is about ZYX Premium 4D SB performance on Reed 3P "12 Cocobolo, 19g effective mass, anyone? I've described my consern above (kansui vs. zyx on reed). |
Not much more discussions about these arms. I’m looking for another tonearm for my TW-Acustic AC3 to fit a Miyajima Infinity mono cart. Choice could be between Schroeder CB and the Reed 3P.I could also install the VDH Colibri on the Reed or Schroeder CB and the Miyajima on the SME 3012-R.
Any opinions please ?JY |
barbapapa, I think you landed on two of the best tonearms made. If you have multiple cartridges and swap out frequently the Reed 2G is the arm for you. It is a significantly better design than the 3P and more closely matches the Schroder CB. If you use one cartridge and swap infrequently than the Schroder CB is the way to go. The CB is a better design than the SAT arms and this is not IMHO. The CB's vertical bearing is in the plane of the record minimizing warp wow and it is a neutral balance arm which means it does not change VTF with changes in VTA. It Has a friction less magnetic anti skate mechanism. The SAT's vertical bearing is way up in the air. It is also a neutral balance arm but it uses an archaic pulley and dangling weight for anti skating. The Reed 2G is very similar to the Schroder but is more elaborate with a detachable arm wand and adjustible VTA on the fly. |
Thanks Mijostyn,
I don’t swap cartridges frequently. Do you think Reed and Schroeder are in the same league for sound quality ?
|
