Hagerman Trumpet MC (12AX7 Tube Suggestions)

Sovtek 12AX7LPS are said to be excellent and available. Nothing wrong with Sylvania, etc. TFK are the best but there are many counterfeits. I’d replace 12AU7 with 12FQ7 if the Trumpet has a 12V filament supply or with 6FQ7 if a 6V filament supply.

I have rolled Amperex 12ax7's and RCA Black plates in my Trumpet. I have gone back and forth between those and the "Stock" Mullards. When I put the "old" tubes in compared to the "new" sometimes I say "ah that's fantastic", but I also say the same thing when I roll in the new mullards.

I did roll some old RAM 12au7's that have stayed put. 

Currently I am running the Amperex in the "2nd" position and the New Mullard in the first. Does it make a difference? Not 100% convinced, but that's where I stopped....for now.

Also I seem to think that Jim Hagerman has done extensive testing not only of his gear but of what tubes make his gear sound best. That's why the Mullards keep sticking around for me. They are a touch more noisy than the Amperex but that's splitting hairs at a loud, late at night bourbon drinking level. (Not advised to be testing like that :-) Soundstage seems to be the same for all sets of tubes.

Also I have read the Mullard 12ax7 is a "better" tube than the Sovtek LPS. By better I mean same tube just better specs. I may be wrong on that but I got down a pretty good russian tube rabbit hole a few months back and that stuck with me. 

All that to say I have also rolled a set of RCA 5751 in the Trumpet. Was not bad. Didn't floor me. Definitely had to turn it up a notch.

Have fun, its a great hobby :-)

db

Can’t go wrong with Amperex, the older the better. (As long as the test good)

I have two old Dynaco branded Telefunken black smooth plate 12ax7’s, two old Dystrom branded Mullard Blackburn 12ax7’s, and two old CBS Hytron black plate 12au7’s.

Sounds great. A wonderful mix in the Trumpet after trying a few.

The 12au7 choice makes a difference with your 12ax7 choices.

Wonderful comments everyone and Much Appreciated.

I should note that I only buy from Trusted Sellers that can Identify and actually Test and Match Pairs for me. Been there and done that on Ebay and it was not a great experience.

@lewm Ironically, I am using a Quad of Sovtek 12AX7LPS that were purchased from a Trusted Seller eons ago as Spares for other Gear. I am running the Trumpet now with Tungsram 12AU7’s and the Sovteks. I am quite pleased with the sound but I would like to try some other variations.

@photodusty I loved your Post and Thank You for taking the time to write. On the Supplied Mullards I have to say that I was confused since they were not banded as Matched Pairs and the Four Tubes were just placed in a Bag in the Shipping Box. I actually left them in the Shipping Box knowing that I will be trying the Sovtek’s noted above first. With what you are saying I should have used the new Mullards first before the Sovtek’s.

Your comments on the Amperex were enlightening since I have a Quad of Holland Amperex’s coming. I am fond of them due to my previous experience with them in other Gear.

Thanks for your comment on the RCA 5751 also. I have also reached out to Jim Hagerman recently regarding using a 5751 but have not heard back yet. With your comment quite possibly I am wasting my time exploring this.

@bkeske I reviewed your previous Posts extensively on the Hagerman before purchase. Thank You! Telefunken Smooth Plates are so expensive now from the Trusted Sellers to avoid Counterfeits so the Holland Amperex might be the end of the line for me since they were not cheap. I would like to try a USA variant also and I do not mind keeping some Spares in a Box. I am going to paw around the entrance of the Rabbit Hole but I will not be performing a Complete Dive into the Rabbit Hole regarding the Tubes.

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Telefunken and Mazda (silver plates) 12ax7 are great if you want to amp up detail. The smooth plate Teles are warmer; ribbed plates are a bit more dynamic but also touch brighter. Mazda silver are the best omg - but a tad bright and expensive! The Trumpet MC is warm overall so it’s very accepting of these tubes, more than most.

I don’t have much for 12au7 in my collection but I do have British Mullard CV4003 in there now (warm) and the result with brighter more detailed 12ax7 is quite nice.

Modern Russian production tubes are really quite good too. The Mullards are quite warm. The Tung-Sols give you a bit more detail and energy up top and I like them in the Trumpet MC. The overall tonality/balance of Russian Mullards and Tung-Sols actually tracks pretty well with their vintage counterparts.

Teles are expensive from “trusted” sources but they’re really quite common. So many of these were imported to USA, e.g. in Fisher gear. No need to overpay for Teles. Find a few “used tests strong” pairs and keep the best. Of course this works much better if you or a friend have a tube tester.

I’m not really a fan of RCA tubes but they’re OK, sometimes. GE triple mica black plate 5751 are much better than RCA 5751 but I haven’t tried a 5751 in the Trumpet MC yet. It’ll certainly work, but not sure how the sound will be.

@mulveling

Teles are expensive from “trusted” sources but they’re really quite common. So many of these were imported to USA, e.g. in Fisher gear. No need to overpay for Teles. Find a few “used tests strong” pairs and keep the best. Of course this works much better if you or a friend have a tube tester.

Agreed. I have had good results from rebranded Teles (and Mullards). If you know what to look for, you can get good deals vs factory labeled tubes. Being willing to try some some from other than "trusted" sellers with good track records can also bring your cost down significantly. I think I got all my vernerable old tubes in my Trumpet for about $400~450ish total. For 6 great old tubes, that is actually a pretty good deal.

For my ears, well worth the extra cost in the Trumpet, and my mix transformed the sound significantly in a good way, to me. Heightened detail with smoothness, warmth, and good weight. But, we all have different subjective tastes.

Tube rolling is a subjective sport.

You guys all do realize that a 5751 affords less gain than a 12AX7.

@mulveling I also reviewed your previous Posts on the Trumpet extensively before purchase. I was especially struck that you compared it with the Herron VTPH-2A which I also own so I wish to Thank You also.

You made me look at the modern Tung-Sols and this warning was on the Viva Tubes Site; " These tubes are great for linestage preamps, but generally not phono stages where a very low noise floor is required ".

It looks like with your comments and bkeske's comments that I have to search and pony up for the Telefunkens.

@djohn

Awesome! So glad you’re enjoying it :)

Just this past week I’ve been playing the Trumpet MC with Plantinum grade gold pin Tung-Sol (Russia) 12AX7 from Upscale Audio - no noise problems there. Maybe Viva just doesn’t like selecting them for this role ;)

But certainly, a good set of Teles will be amazing. I need to dig them up again from my stash. I ’ve been playing with lot of gear the past few years; now trying to settle things down a bit - the ARC Ref 3SE is sold to a friend, the VAC Renaissance SE reigns again in the now all-VAC main rig with Tannoy Canterbury GR, and the new fun 2nd system at my girlfriend’s home is anchored by a really nice set of Tannoy Glenair 10 and this Trumpet MC.

I just went through my photos and see that a couple years ago, when I was really enjoying the Trumpet MC in the main rig (it holds up extremely well and is still probably the best I’ve heard my Benz LPS), I had it stocked with a quad of Tele ribbed plates. So it can use the extra detail and dynamics of this variant (versus smooth plates) without getting too bright - but I also had those warm Mullard CV4003 (12AU7) to balance them out a bit. Shame that Upscale finally ran out of those :(

As @lewm points out, 5751 has a lower mu than 12AX7 - 70 versus 100. But most tube circuits are quite flexible for this. By math 20 * log (0.7) - this is a 3dB difference. However, this assumes an infinite load and in practice it is usually less than this (~ 2dB?). Subjectively, 5751 have a different "kind" of sound. I find them to have tighter, sharper, smaller imaging. They sound very clean and precise. Whereas 12AX7 have a bigger, bolder, more dynamic sound - but with a potentially more "grungy" cast to the sound. But again, haven’t tried 5751 here yet. The GE TM BP are a good go-to for a classic 5751 sound. The "holy grail" 5751 are supposedly Raytheon windmill getters or Sylvania triple mica black plates (TM BP) and I haven’t been lucky enough to snag either. The later 1960’s Sylvania gray plates are awfully bright and lean. Sadly that has been my experience with later make Sylvanias across types - you really want to stick to the 1950s and earlier.

One more note on the 5751 tubes tangent - the absolute sweetest sounding of the GE 5751 TM BP are a specific variant only produced between 1953 and 1954. This variant has unusual silver colored metal "clips" crimped over the plate "ears" that normally poke through the top & bottom mica spacers. These "ears" are normally left bare (not just 5751 - all tube types). For some reason GE saw fit to clamp them down extra tight in this case. And for whatever reasons, this version sounds sweetest :)

From Jim Hagerman the Designer;

Yes you can use a 5751, but the tonality (EQ) will change.  Probably a bit darker.

I will be sticking with the 12AX7.
 

Picked up my second Trumpet over the years a few months ago. Brent Jessee over at Brent Jessee Tubes recommended NOS Amperex BB's. I can't quite remember what tubes I rolled in my previous Trumpet iteration, but it sounded wonderful no matter what. Great thread, btw!

The quote from Mr Hagerman about the 5751 may indicate that the 12AX7 it would replace is involved in the RIAA correction filter, as well as adding gain. Since the 5751 might change slightly the output impedance of the stage, it might also affect RIAA, resulting in a sonic coloration that has nothing to do with the brand or vintage of the 5751 chosen.

Well I actually tried a pair of 5751 in the 1st 12AX7 slots. It sounds great - this is an improvement over the Russian Tung-Sol gold pin 12AX7 I had in there, for sure. Sweeter midrange, a little more 3D - as is often the case going from Russian to good vintage tubes. Excellent clarity. It did NOT shift the tonal balance to darker. It’s just nicer, overall. It did lose a dB or 2 - that’s noticeable and easy to adjust for.

These are just RCA TM BP 5751, since I have very limited tubes available here where my "B" system is located. Also the "B" system is something I just recently put together, haha. So at some point I’ll bring over a bag of vintage 12AX7, 5751, and 12AU7 and go to town as I continue to familiarize myself with the B system and refine it (basically it needs a better turntable). We'll see if 5751 hangs with the better vintage 12AX7. 

But 5751 in that first slot is good! No worries if you want to try it there. I guess I should also try the 2nd slot next.

The B system:

• Tannoy Glenair 10 speakers
• VAC Signature 200 iQ stereo tube amp
• Rogue Athena tube preamp
• Hagerman Trumpet MC
• Fluance RT85 w/ Ortofon 2M Blue - this will be replaced with Clearaudio Innovation Compact in a week - but it’s kinda neat how good it sounds through a downstream which far outclasses it.

Sure I get the concerns about 5751 subs affecting the RIAA EQ. That’s why I’ve shied away from using 5751 in phono stages in the past. But sometimes you just have to try things. There can be a lot of variance in measurements between 12AX7 tubes, too.

@mulveling Fascinating story on your 5751 Trial.

@bkeske I have listened to both of you since I found a Seller of some Telefunken 12AX7’s with a Great Track Record on USAudioMart and Ebay. Fully Tested and Guaranteed to function to my satisfaction in the Trumpet MC. Cheaper than the main Tube Sellers also.

They will be the Rebranded Tele’s as bkeske has suggested.

Thanks for the assistance on this.

So I had a channel imbalance yesterday. The investigator in me found one of the “new” mallards was the culprit. 
after reading @mulveling post about the 5751’s (mine are also rca black plate) I  have them in the front and the amperex in the second. So far it’s sounds great. No imbalance 😎

I’ll keep playing. @djohn please update us when you get them in and settled. (Seems this might turn into the Hagerman trumpet tube thread).

db

@djohn

Thanks for the assistance on this.

Not a problem. I think you will like what the Tele’s offer. More detail, more air, and increased smoothness. Not ‘gritty’ in the least like some of the newer tubes.

I was running 4 smooth plates, but then tried a couple CBS Hytron black plate 12au7’s, and they offered even more detail and transparency. They replaced some old 12au7 Brimar’s.

But, it soon became clear the 4 Tele’s and 2 CBS Hytron’s were too much of a good thing, but I like the Hytron’s a lot so did not want to put the Brimar’s back in. Thus, decided to combine 2 old Mullard Blackburn 12ax7’s with 2 Tele’s, and that was the ticket. The Mullard’s brought back some warmth and weight without giving up detail, in the mid’s and lower mids especially. Just balanced everything out.

Have fun. I find the Trumpet is very good at allowing a tubes ‘signature’ to shine through. Then it’s a matter of finding a combo that sounds good to your ears.