Gustard R26

@soix

The good news is just trying running an Ethernet cable from an extender is pretty cheap to try out, so why not?

i think this troll would rather come here and type his garbage ... probably an april fool’s day joke, and the joke is on us... so he has awesome mesh through his house, can even recommend the best mesh to all here reading... but doesn’t have a lan out for his dac... sheesh 🙄

@soix I have used more extenders in the past than I can count some where better then others. As it turns out I have a very robust mesh wifi setup in my home; Asus RT-AX88U as the main router link to my modem and three RT-AX86U Pro's mesh chained around my home incredibly robust I highly recommend the Asus AiMesh system one of the best I've come across pricey but worth every penny.

Thank you for the insight.

A wireless input is going into the extender, so where is the logic of the lan being superior using a wifi extender? It simply is not so.

@balooo2 There are many here who use an extender to provide a wired connection to the streamer and find it superior to using Wi-Fi — and yes, I was skeptical at first too for the same reasons as you, but here we are.  Maybe @ghdprentice can chime in here as he uses an extender with his very expensive streaming setup.  Some people say using a mesh system is better than an extender, but it’s also a bit more expensive.  Sometimes things in audio don’t seem to make sense on the surface yet still provide meaningful improvements.  The good news is just trying running an Ethernet cable from an extender is pretty cheap to try out, so why not?

@jjss49 Nah I’d rather not move on, I’ll just hang out here and rattle your cage 😀

One would think you owned Gustard...Just here to discuss the Good the Bad and the Ugly and why one would consider a purchase or pass, again this is an open forum; If you can’t handle that YOU should move on.

Do you have any first hand experience regarding the performance and ease of use of the R26 streaming function?...If so please do us all the honor of your enlightenment, if not what do you care what I think? I'm not banging on the R26 as stated I came close to buying one, merely saying it is likely in my opinion they will release a version without a streamer at a lower price point and that would work best for me and I'll wait for that version,good grief

I did’nt know this was supposed to be a rah rah session for those who purchased an r26.

i don’t follow, this is a discussion thread on a ’flavor of the month’ dac, getting lots of internet push, seemingly a decent performer, if one accepts the reviews

competing as they are in this crowded field, they try to offer good performance and a compelling feature set, so bundling in streaming capability is no doubt viewed by the maker as something a buyer/user would likely positively value or they wouldn't have done it ...

but as i read what is here, this ain’t no rah rah here about the r26 (and i ain’t got no horse in this pony race)

but if it doesn’t work for you, then move on, lotsa fish in the ocean...

I sent a friend of mine a Matrix Audio I-3 mini Pro almost 3 years ago. It was only yesterday that I setup this DAC with a headphone amp and headphones at his place in Florida. He did not want to figure out how to put it all together.

He really does not have wired in either his home or office, just WiFi. The Matrix is maybe the most flexible DAC for streaming. It has Wifi support along with BlueTooth (via an iPhone for him). We were able to get music playing in minutes and have his musical experience improved from his prior iPhone speaker to a pretty nice headphone setup. I told him the way he was using the new setup was like putting 87 octane gas into a Ferrari, but it was still better than what he was doing before.

I owned the Matrix mini i-3 Pro at one time and I tested it out the Wifi. I was amazed at how good it sounded when it WORKED. When it did not work I had to restart the DAC. I think this was related to the WiFi’s inherent quality at my home. It will be interesting to see you it works for my friend.

Wifi has some advantages (no wire into the DAC carrying noise) that I would expect it to sound good. I have 3 different Fibre Optic streamers so I know what a decent setup sounds like.

@jjss49 And I am discussing the Gustard r26,most reviews I’ve read state they did not test r26’s streaming capabilies because they don’t stream via lan.In fact I have not encounted much commentary regarding the streaming experince (none on this thread either) only SQ. I almost pulled the trigger on r26 last week when it was on sale knowing i would not use the "streaming" function but decided to trust my gut and wait for a revised version and not pay for something I will not use. I bet most folks who purchased one use it solely as a dac,I did’nt know this was supposed to be a rah rah session for those who purchased an r26. I’m simply offering my perspective about the r26 just like everyone else that commented.

@sgreg1 No offense taken,no worries. What I find odd about your best sound perspective via lan is you stated  "What is hard about plugging in a wifi extender. Run a piece of cat 6 to the R26" Ok... what is the source feeding the wifi extender? A wireless input is going into the extender, so where is the logic of the lan being superior using a wifi extender? It simply is not so.Additionally the lan you have signal is highly dependent on the quality of the internet service and last mile/ feet installation to your modem. I know a little about this and I've seen some off the charts internet noise in congested areas (and non congested areas with poor install) a quality wireless router cleans a lot of that up fact, but thats for a different topic. My point in this case is lan does not guarantee a better signal for music streaming especailly if your lan was poorly installed and or the componets in the wall and box are old and degraded...food for thought. I have a fiber optic high speed servce which gives a consistant 100+ Mbp safe to say I'd put my wireless setup against any lan that was installed 4 years or more ago; one last thing to consider do you KNOW what cat wiring is in your walls? I'll bet its not cat 6.

there are many streamers and streaming dacs that use wireless and even bluetooth input... amazon and alibaba are littered with them, many dirt cheap, there are also some more pricey ones, with rather higher sonic aspirations

but this is a thread about the r26 from gustard, and it needs a hardwired network input for its streamer feed... 

@balooo2 

I did not intend to come across as being critical sorry you took it that way. Wireless will never give you the same sound quality as lan. Most people who will buy the R26 are chasing the best sound they can achieve with their system. I my self will not sacrifice quality for convince. Enjoy the music!

@sgreg1 I never knocked on the coax,usb,spdif nor Bluetooth connections or complained about lack of nor their function you are putting words in my mouth.
“What more do I want?” A truly wireless streamer makes more sense for me if you are happy with your purchase buying the r26 good on you. I,me, myself don’t want a streamer that is not wireless.I’ve got enough wires and noisy stuff going on. My entire internet world in my home is wireless,I like it like that…I’ll save my $$$ and wait for the non”streaming”version or a true wireless one which is sure to come along soon. The r26 requiring a lan connection is not for me, simple.I don’t want pay for a feature I don’t want and will not use I expect the non streaming version to be less expensive and can wait for it.
Different strokes.

I’m sorry but a “streamer” that can only be connected via lan these days… really? No thanks.

funny, this is the only kind of streamer i am interested in.... courses for horses, eh?

@balooo2 

A streamer you can’t easily use! What is hard about plugging in a wifi extender. Run a piece of cat 6 to the R26, download Jplay and you are up and running using a lan port that sounds fantastic. If you don’t wan lan R26 has Bluetooth, usb, coax, spdif what more do you want?

I am going to wait for the non streaming R2R Gustard that will surely release in few months after they’ve drained our pockets for the R26. I don’t want to pay for a capability I cannot easily use. I’m sorry but a “streamer” that can only be connected via lan these days… really? No thanks.

Additionally don’t doubt for a minute smsl isn’t in the basement developing a $1,000-1,500 r2r that will likely be the flavor of the month soon. Dacs and ddc’s is where the $$$ is these days the level of performance is going to skyrocket for good value dacs etc.(it already has really). I could be wrong…but I don’t think so.I’m enjoying my popcorn.

@arafiq Point taken and totally get and respect that.  I’m not a fan of the Gustard’s look either, especially in silver.  Yuck.  But I do think getting something that performs at the level of the R26 that also looks good will cost multiples of its price — think along the lines of the Denafrips Terminator, etc.  Ouchee!

@kereru Thanks for the wonderful feedback. Since I already have the Bluesound Node 2i in my second systems, I'm debating if I should go with only a DAC (e.g. Denafrips Pontus 2), or get the R26 and sell the BS Node. I like the fact that you can use a DDC with both DACs, i.e., R26 and Pontus.

@soix

and in the end it’s what’s on the inside that counts unless you’re an insecure audiophile who needs the bling to show it off to friends. I’m not one of those.

I don’t think it’s fair to assume that audiophiles who care about how the equipment looks are necessarily driven by the need to ’show it off to friends.’ Many audiophiles, myself included, care about the way our equipment looks. If I’m listening to my music I also tend to look at the speakers, amps, racks, etc. At least for me it adds to my enjoyment if the view is equally pleasing to my eyes. I’ve put in a lot of effort to make my listening room aesthetically pleasing (to my eyes). It is important to me that the equipment fits in with the overall vibe of the room. But I can assure you, it has nothing to do with showing off to anyone else.

@kairosman Nothing more exotic right now alas. My only point of comparison was a head-to-head with a similarly priced and since returned SMSL AK4499 VMV D2 DAC last year, which the R26 beat handily. Oh and a Topping E50 they both destroyed. R26 & D2 were using the Zen/U18, Roon/HQP and an Ock-1.

All I know is that my R26’s sound has improved out of sight since then with network chain improvements, better external clocking and signal grounding (I can’t recomment Quartz Acoustics Premium grounding boxes highly enough). If the ’stock’ I2S input R26 YT reviewers compared favourably with R2Rs up to maybe the level of the Pontus/Venus and the Spring 3, then I reckon (he says, perhaps a little optimistically) in my more optimized setup it’d now surely soar well past them, if perhaps not quite as far as your Baltic 4...

@kereru thanks for the info! Out of curiosity what other DACs have you got to compare the R26 to?

@arafiq I use the R26 streamer with Roon and HQplayer, faultless operation and sounds great. I use HQP upscaled PCM768 & DSD512.

I prefer the sound of the R26 internal streamer to my Ifi Zen Mini (+ IFI Power X) > Gothic Audio pure silver Outsider USB cable > Gustard U18 DDC > BJC FE I2S > R26. I actually found using a USB direct connection from my server to the U18 (albeit with the Holo Titanis USB regenerator plugged into the server) to be better than the Zen > U18, and closer to but still some way behind the R26 internal streamer. With an external clock in play the gap widens.

That said I know of a few folk with better streamers (like the Ifi Neo Stream) or servers (such as with $2k JCAT USB & ethernet upgrades) who prefer I2S and/or USB connection to the internal streamer. 

@Kairosman - from my reading the conventional wisdom is most DACs when fed sources like I2S, s/pdif and AES that contain a synchronous word clock will use that embedded clock signal untouched so theoretically at least a master clock connected to the DAC wouldn’t be used to reclock the stream so would be of no benefit. And that conversely with asynchronous sources like USB and ethernet they are of necessity reclocked by the recipient DAC/ streamer and so if the DAC/streamer is being slaved to a master clock you’ll get the benefit of its greater temporal precision. Indeed from memory Gustard’’s R26 product blurb that appears on vendors’ sites is consistent with this referring to the USB and Ethernet inputs being reclocked.

So far so logical. But then it gets rather less clear cut with:

a) a clarification Gustard provided over email to a Headfi member (copied verbatim below, ambiguous punctuation and all) that suggests - depending on how you read the punctuation - that all the R26’s inputs benefit from an external clock with NOS & DSD DIRECT OFF (ie over sampling ON) but with NOS/DSDD ON only the asynchronous inputs, USB and ethernet, benefit; and

b) at odds with a) my observation from careful testing that there is a satisfying audible benefit of toggling an EXT Clock ON for I2S and s/pdif regardless of the NOS/DSDD setting. Fairly sure a number of other Gustard *26 owners who use I2S and NOS/DSDD also find a good benefit with an external clock. As to the mechanism of action/benefit from the external clock if these synchronous inputs are not buffered and reclocked (which would seem unlikely), your guess is as good as mine!

It has become apparent there’s substantial language barrier/translation error risk factor with any comms with Gustard, so a pinch of salt with all their comms and publications especially on nuanced technical points is wise. Eg. They accepted the manual had a translation error re DSD processing.

Credit to HF member MMWMM:

This is an answer from Gustard regarding the use of a 10Mhz external clock with the R26 and when its clock signal is used to reference the internal K2 synthesizer and when is not used.

“When playing PCM

1. PCM NOS: OFF
The improvement provided by the external clock applies to all R26 inputs.

2. PCM NOS: On
The improvement provided by external clock applies to USB and LAN inputs, IIS AES coaxial optical Bluetooth does not apply.

When playing DSD

1.DSD DIRECT: OFF
The improvement provided by the external clock applies to all R26 inputs.

2.DSD DIRECT: ON
The improvements provided by the external clock apply to USB and LAN inputs, IIS AES coaxial optical Bluetooth does not apply.”

@arafiq Yup, I hear ya man — looks like straight-up ChiFi, but I trust the guy who wrote the review, and in the end it’s what’s on the inside that counts unless you’re an insecure audiophile who needs the bling to show it off to friends.  I’m not one of those. 

@soix Thanks for the reference. I need to read the review by stereonews.net at some point. One thing I will say though is that Gustard can definitely take a design lesson from the likes of Denafrips or Holo Audio. The R26 looks like a cheap VCR from the early 90's. I know, I know ... it shouldn't matter as long as it sounds good. But still ...

Wondering if anyone compared the streamer section to standalone streamers in this price range.

The guy at stereonews.net compares the R26 favorably with the MUCH more expensive Denafrips Terminator 2, so by association it’s superior to the Pontus ll. 

... also, has anyone compared it with Denafrips Pontus II? Since I already have a BS Node 2i, I can probably use it as a streamer with the Pontus. 

I'm seriously considering the R26 for my second system. I previously had the Denafrips Ares II that I liked but had to sell it when I sold off my second system to take care of other unexpected expenses. But now I'm back at putting together the second system in my home office once again. Since it's a second system, I don't want to spend more than $1500 on the DAC. I have two questions ...

1. Does the R26 provide meaningful, noticeable improvement over Ares II? I know it's all subjective but still want to hear from someone who has compared the two.

2. I think the R26 can double as a streamer as well. How would you compare it to Bluesound Node (the streamer aspect only) or other streams in the sub $1000 range? Is it Roon-enabled? For some reason, Gustard doesn't highlight the streaming function as much. Is it because it's more of an afterthought or do you guys think it can compete favorably with similar priced streamers?

usb connection allows the receiving dac unit to provide the clock timing

spdif transmission is just the reverse, clock signal is sent by the sending unit as ’master’ and the receiving unit can only be the ’slave’

lan standards can vary, but timing info is usually part of the packet data sent -- of course the receiving can reclock the data once received

@kereru sorry my mistake for misconstruing what you said. BTW I've heard from more than one person that LAN and USB are clocked in the DAC while SPDIF AES I2S are clocked by the streamer/server. I have yet to come across a clear, precise and comprehensive description of a DAC's operation, have you?

@kairosman With respect I didn’t say the R26 uses an external clock to reclock its DAC section only with the LAN input selected but that when the LAN input is used it also reclocks its streamer/renderer section. So it’s just there’s a there’s a dual benefit in my use case.

I’ve verified through careful AB’ing (ext clock on/off toggling) that the R26 does audibly benefit from an R26-connected external clock when fed I2S or S/pdif from the SU6 or U18, irrespective of whether DSD Direct or PCM NOS is on or off. From recollection others on Headfi found the same with the R26 and the other Gustard *26 DACs that share the K2 clock synthesiser.

@kereru understood, but why would Gustard only have the LAN input fully utilize a Masterclock signal? What is the logic of that? So the I2S is simply slaved to the DDC's clock and ignores the Masterclock I spent $700 on? 

Enjoying my r26(stock)  recently paired with inuos pulse mini for streaming. 

Sounds better for most everything, but still like the delta sigma sound for certain types of music.

And now that I have the pulse mini, it os easy to switch between the two dacs. (And qobuz/tidal/stored)

Hi guys, first post here.

@kairosman I have the R26 and recently became one of those guys with a couple of inline switches. I found inserting a modestly priced Netgear GS108E (albeit Alpha Audio recommended) upstream of my already very good LHY SW-8 gave a nice improvement in soundstage focus and tightened up the bass of my R26-based system. I have yet to try FMCs but have found the R26 LAN input / renderer (I use its HQPlayer NAA) very sensitive to and able to resolve all upstream ethernet chain improvements I've made. This includes for e.g. adding Quartz Acoustics grounding boxes on my server, switches and router. I have a couple of Ifi LAN iSilencers (galvanic isolator & USB regenerator) on order to further optimise things after some early very positive feedback from a few folk with already well sorted systems.

I concur that adding a decent clock like the LHY OCK-2 to the R26 lifts it to another level, particularly when used with a high quality clock cable like the 50 ohm Harmonic Technology DC III or better. When the R26 LAN input is selected I understand a connected masterclock will be used by the R26 to clock both its renderer and DAC sections. This may explain in part why I find the sound of R26's HQP renderer superior to that of DDCs I own like the U18 and SU6, even when the U18 is also externally clocked.

The majority of R26 users using lan connection are finding nice improvements adding a fiber media converter run off a lps. You can add this all in under $200 very much worth the try. If you don’t like what it does for your dac mover it over to a lan tv set up.

I was looking at the Audio-GD DI-20HE DDC. Will look at the Musician Leo as well. Will reach out to Esoteric. Thanks so much.

@zeusodin Im sorry, I’m not familiar with your DAC so I can’t say.  I’d certainly reach out to Esoteric and ask them what input is best and go from there.  If they say their DAC works best with an i2S input I wouldn’t hesitate to get a good DDC, but at that level I’d be looking at the Denafrips Hermes or Musician Leo given their better clocks.  If i2S is the best connection according to Esoteric, then hell yeah I view a DDC as mandatory. 

@soix I was given an amazing opportunity today to purchase the Esoteric Grandioso D1. So I did so. Do you think a DDC is still necessary?

Most folks with a R26 find that it sounds the best with the LAN connection.

There is a huge thread over on head-fi:

Head-Fi Gustard R26 Thread

and an interesting master clock thread:

Head-Fi Master Clock Thread

@soix is correct. It's rarely mentioned in these discussions that I2s specs say no longer than a 10cm (~4 inches) cable.

A friend of mine is an integrated circuit designer specializing in network products for decades. I asked and was told that the main thing that happens when chaining switches is that you add latency (bad). So the sound probably changes. One of these audiophile situations where any change is perceived to be good.

Some guys actually have MULTIPLE switches because they believe reclocking the signal multiple times BEFORE a DDC/clock/DAC stack yields benefits - in this crazy hobby, I wouldn't be the least surprised if that is true lol!

@zeusodin Yes, very. 
 

Wireworld Starlight 7 Ethernet cable > iFi Zen Stream (w/ iPowerX PS) > LavriCables Ultimate Silver Dual USB cable > Denafrips Iris DDC > 6” Monoprice HDMI cable > Musician Pegasus R2R DAC

It’s important to keep the HDMI cable as short as possible as i2S wasn’t designed for distance and will degrade quickly, which is why I got the 6” Monoprice cable as it was the shortest I could find — and also a very cost-effective way to dip my toe in the water.  I’m surprised by the level of performance so don’t feel a rush to upgrade the HDMI cable although I probably will at some point.  I’ve heard from others that the HDMI cable doesn’t seem to make a dramatic impact on the sound, so there’s that. You could still add a separate clock later as most DDCs have clock inputs, but you might not feel the need after hearing what a DDC can do.  Anyway, hope this helps at least somewhat. 

@soix Thanks for the suggestion. I will take this seriously. Are your connections similar to kairosman’s post above? Thank you.

I want to replace with the same streamer with a 50 MHz clock input and get a new DAC with 50 MHz input as well. Or simply forgo SoTM altogether and replace with the Gustard R26 streamer / DAC in one unit.

@zeusodin If going with the R26 I’d suggest getting a DDC (Denafrips Iris, Musician Pisces, Singxer SU-6, etc.) as in addition to re-clocking they also allow you to provide an i2S connection to the DAC, so you’re getting two significant benefits in one.  I added the Iris and using the i2S made a huge difference from running SPDIF without the Iris.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.  

Understood. I have Legacy Aeris speakers and a distributed bass array ala AudioKinesis. I decided to go with 2 REL 212/SX in front and 2 Rythmik E22 for the rear. So it's possible that my hardware might improve from additional tweaking. Another audio friend came over this past weekend and said Don't spend another dime on anything before treating your room. I live in a large loft with concrete / brick walls and hardwood floors. So it echoes. That's my #1 priority now. When that is done, I will look into the DAC / streamer / clock issue. I think I will replace the SOtM with a  version that has the clock input and then look at a used Esoteric Grandioso D1.

Did you consider spending the purchase price of the R26 only on a DAC since you are not using its streamer? Just curious. But if you have a Lampizator as well, you have DACs in rotation which is a beautiful thing! Lol. A friend sells the Lumin line of products. They are truly amazing.

Thanks so much. I might reach out again after finishing treating my room.

@zeusodin the LHY makes a significant difference. To me in my system EVERY tweak so far has yielded positive results (including good cabling) although I must say the most audible tweak was switching from copper to fiber optic from the switch to the server/streamer.

Here is the digital source chain:

Melco S100 (fiber optic)->Lumin P1->Singxer SU-6->LHY OCK-2->DAC

But my system is $60K and very resolving so the results of tweak components like clocks and linear power supplies etc. can be heard. BUT I can’t say whether these tweaks would make the same kind of difference in your system. One thing to keep in mind is I haven’t used the R26's streamer module but word is that it’s better than the USB input and almost on par with the I2S (the input I use).

The R26 is a great buy and I will keep it in rotation. Right now I have a Lampizator Baltic 4 in the system, a tube DAC, and in most ways I prefer it, but then again it’s $7K so it SHOULD be better.

Is the Gustard R26 the most capable DAC coming out of China? Anything else considered top of the line? Has anyone connected a 10 MHz master clock to the R26? I have a SoTM sms-200 neo ultra without clock input. I am trying to decide if I want to replace with the same streamer with a 50 MHz clock input and get a new DAC with 50 MHz input as well. Or simply forgo SoTM altogether and replace with the Gustard R26 streamer / DAC in one unit.

@kairosman How are you liking the LHY OCK-2? I was thinking of getting one of the CyberShaft master clocks.

this is definitely the dac flavor of the month, going by internet/youtube over-exposure etc etc

seems like another decent candidate for yet one more high value dac offering in the crowded marketplace

Hello,

Just a few hours with the Gustard r26, and realy convinced it’s a very good partner with my system (and ears). The r26 matches with my Luxman 595 axII. I use it as dac for my Naim cd player, for my Apple mac book pro (usb).