The Gilmore Audio speaker have finally been photographed for the world to see: Gilmore Audio
Disclaimer - I'm a dealer for the Gilmores, though at this point I'm still awaiting my first pair, as they haven't begun shipping yet.
The Gilmores push the edge of the envelope for planar technology in several areas. Innovations include an extremely thin (3 mil) Kapton diaphragm; bass extension to below 20 Hz; easy 8-ohm load combined with 92 dB efficiency (you can drive 'em with Atma-Sphere M-60's!); and maximum output level in the mid to upper 120's.
Designer Mark Gilmore is the webmaster of the Atma-Sphere Owner's Group website, as well as of the Sound Lab Owner's Group site. He's been around for a while, but this is his first commercial loudspeaker design (to the best of my knowledge).
I haven't heard 'em yet so can't comment on the sound (I know, that's all that really matters after all). I'm expecting a pair before the end of the year, and will post comments then.
Sound involves the actual movement of air molecules.
The air molecules only vibrate. Each individual particle of the medium (air) is temporarily displaced and then returns to its original equilibrium position.
Waves can be divided into two categories: mechanical and electromagnetic. The very nature of this classification is that electromagnetic waves can propagate in a vacuum. You are correct that sound waves are not like light waves, although we lost the "ether" some time back ;-), but they are waves, and share some fundamental characteristics.
Another categorization of waves is into longitudinal waves (such as sound waves), transverse waves (where the disturbed particles vibrate perpendicular to the direction in which the waves move), and surface waves (where the particles undergo circular motion).
Let me give you another example of a wave to demonstrate that the individual particles don't in fact move. You are at a big football game, and the "wave" is started by the boisterous beer drinkers in section B. They jump up, hands in the air, and sit down. Observed by their neighbours, who at the right moment jump up ... and so it goes. Watching from the Goodyear blimp, we observe the wave travel around the stadium a few times until it dies out through boredom. But the lads in section B are still there. They didn't run around the stadium with their hands in the air, did they? No, they have to stay in the cheap seats.
Whoa, guys, we've got some real wacky science being bandied about here. FYI, movement of molecules from high concentration to low is diffusion, not sound. A jet stays up because of thrust and lift; a boat floats because the volume of water it displaces has more mass than the boat, itself. Have no idea how the speaker sounds, but would love to hear it and price it. Although I must point out that the WAF for the L&Rs is only a little bit lower than for the Center!!!!
FIrst, let me thank you for your kind words. But I need to respectfully disagree about the science you are espousing. Sound involves the actual movement of air molecules. It is not like light waves propogating in ether. It is the movement of air molecules due to pressure differentials that are created by sound waves -- the movement of molecules from areas of higher concentration to lower concentration.
Please bring your SPL meter to the CES and THE-expo to see for yourself. Sometimes paradigm changes are hard to accept. That is what we are looking at.
You seem like a smart guy. Let me say a few things.
You need to lighten up a little bit. "We'll see what the future brings" comment was meant partially tongue in cheek but also out of respect for future technologies that will take a very different approach to sound reproduction. Of course membranes themselves will never be lighter than air -- you can just look at the periodic chart to figure that one out. But in fact, the claim that we are making, which Soundlab essentially makes also as well as other respected manufacturers that use ultra light membrane technologies, is that our membrance is very light and that that fact is important -- because lightness improves responsiveness and reduces distortion. SO this is a critical issue and the fact is that most drivers are relatively very heavy and don't move more air mass than their own mass. Ours do and that is significant This is hardly snake oil and hype. This is a critical distinction that can be measured. It is interesting to watch a small piece of our .3mil kapton membrane stay afloat for quite a while in a room, buffeted only by the normal air currents found in the home. In any case, we invite you to visit us at CES and THE-expo so you can see for yourself what we are talking about.
Sellerwithintegrity, your answer to my question is somewhat evasive. Are you saying that the speaker can produce a 127dB signal level from 17Hz all the way up to the speaker's upper frequency limits at the recommended seating distance? Is there absolutely no output compression until 127dB is reached? And yes, it is hard to believe that a sixty inch ribbon (the width is unspecified, but doesn't appear to be more than 2 inches wide) can produce a 127dB output level. It will be interesting to see if any independent sources can verify you bold claims. BTW, 127dB is about as loud as jet takeoff on the runway. It's really, really LOUD!
But you do agree that the membrane can be lighter than the total mass of the air it moves.
A confusing statement. In a longitudinal wave (such as a sound wave), molecules of "air" are displaced from a median position by varying amounts producing regions of compression (as the membrane moves forward) and rarefaction (as the membrane moves backwards) along the axis of propagation. The molecules end up where they started once the wave has passed. The wave moves - the air does not.
The very basis of a wave is the transmission of energy without the transport of matter.
I agree that it is desirable to have a membrane with as low a mass as possible without sacrificing stiffness. The thickness achieved in the design you are referring to is amazing.
No, I don't agree with your lame conclusion. By that same logic your furnace is lighter than air too. Read your first post where you state that this particular ribbon isn't actually lighter than air but the next one will be. High end audio is filled with this type of marketing hype. Call it what you want but to me it's snake oil sales tactics. Again, these may be great speakers (we'll see) but this is an over the top claim which promises to bring snickers from anyone with a small amount of scientific knowledge. My guess is that you'll get beat up pretty badly in your own showroom if you stick with this pitch.
Neat stuff. We'll see what the future brings. Roger West's M1's membrane is .1 mil (point one mil) thick. A very reasonable target to shoot for. But you do agree that the membrane can be lighter than the total mass of the air it moves. You agree with this, correct? Also, it would take a lot of helium to get those 180 lb a piece Model 2's to liftoff.
This is not a sensitivity measurement. I am sorry that you are having difficulty believing this claim, but very simply it is true -- compression has to do with when, despite the fact that you are adding power, the speaker doesn't get any louder. This "compression point" on the Gilmore AUdio speakers is 127dB.
Yeah, but better yet, let's use Hydrogen. Seriously, here's the explaination:
"It's probably not possible to make aerogel any lighter than this because then it wouldn't gel," Jones said. "The molecules of silicon wouldn't connect. And it's not possible to make it lighter than the density of air, 1.2 milligrams per cubic centimeter (.00004 pounds per cubic inch), because aerogel is filled with air." To change the density, Jones simply changes the amount of silicon in the initial mixture.
Plus, I don't think the aerogel would make a good ribbon.
Anyway, I look forward to the day when speaker cables are also used as tie downs. Again, these may be great speakers but this claim is so outrageous that it cannot go unchallenged. Heavens, if they could develop such a material, the last engineering use for it would be in audio.
Interesting looking speaker, but what does the statement "compresses at 127dB (dynamic range)" mean? Are you really saying the speaker will output at 127dB? At what frequency? With what input? At what distance? Frankly, it doesn't sound plausible.
Please, rethink your remark about some speaker manufacturer making ribbons that are lighter than air. It isn't going to happen. Here's some reading for you:
May 7, 2002 - A new version of aerogel, the particle-collecting substance on NASA's Stardust spacecraft, has been recognized by Guinness World Records as the solid with the lowest density.
Dr. Steven Jones of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., a materials scientist who created the aerogel used by Stardust, also created a lighter version that weighs only 3 milligrams per cubic centimeter (.00011 pounds per cubic inch.) The team received the official certificate yesterday.
Guinness World Records approved the new aerogel's application for the least dense solid in March. Astronomer David Hawksett, Guinness World Records' science and technology judge, decided that Jones' aerogel beat out the previous record holder, an aerogel that weighed 5 milligrams per cubic centimeter (.00018 pounds per cubic inch.)
Aerogel is pure silicon dioxide and sand, just as is glass, but aerogel is a thousand times less dense than glass because it is 99.8 percent air. It is prepared like gelatin by mixing a liquid silicon compound and a fast-evaporating liquid solvent, forming a gel that is then dried in an instrument similar to a pressure cooker. The mixture thickens, and then careful heating and depressurizing produce a glassy sponge of silicon.
What remains is sometimes called "solid smoke," for its cloudy translucent color and super-light weight. Surprisingly, this seemingly brittle substance is durable and easily survives launch and space environments.
"It's probably not possible to make aerogel any lighter than this because then it wouldn't gel," Jones said. "The molecules of silicon wouldn't connect. And it's not possible to make it lighter than the density of air, 1.2 milligrams per cubic centimeter (.00004 pounds per cubic inch), because aerogel is filled with air." To change the density, Jones simply changes the amount of silicon in the initial mixture.
Stardust will use aerogel to capture particles from comet Wild 2 in 2004. NASA used aerogel for thermal insulation on the Mars Pathfinder mission. It will also be used on the 2003 Mars Exploration Rover, and may aid a proposed fundamental-physics testing mission and the Mars Scout Program.
They showed a front view, and then a side view, I eagerly scrolled down for a rear view and was appropriately disappointed:(. I'd like to see the back side of the speaker too:).
I run Glacier Audio and let me address a few things.
First, Duke thank you for the heads up but I want to make sure that people understand that the ribbon is point 3 mil thick -- not 3 mil. This ribbon is not at all a Bohlender-Grabner element. It uses proprietary technology, has many enhancements and is Kapton based. The statement that has been made is that it is lighter than the air it moves -- it moves a lot of air and if you took the mass of that air, it would be heavier than the ribbon. The ribbon itself is not lighter than air (future versions may be).
In terms of there being nothing new here, I must respectfully disagree. Everything is new. Mark will be the first to admit that he is indebted to Carver's past efforts for inspiration. But the following performance numbers are real -- they don't happen because of magic -- they happen because of good engineering and a lot of thought and analysis and experimentation by the creator, Mark Gilmore, who is one of the most knowledgeable guys in audio that I know of.
For model 2 -- Freq response: 17HZ to 26 KHZ Compresses at 127dB (dynamic range) Corian panel is essentially resonant free in audio frequencies Linkwitz-Riley Crossover using highest quality components including air-core inductors (for lowest DC resistance possible) and non-polar capacitors. 92 db efficient. woofers are hybrid planars -- they are flat-faced like planars with a topology that matches the ribbon for exceptional coherence (a first) with the ability to move in and out like a dynamic speaker and thus move tons of air -- thus bass with great authority -- and clean! Being a dipole cuts down on the efficiency -- if the speaker were in a box, it would be at least 3dB more efficient, probably more like 6db -- but there is nothing like a well constructed planar dipole for emulating the real musical experience. And having dipole bass helps reduce standing waves since there is averaging which occurs from reflections.
As I mentioned in AudioAsylum, I am a proud owner and dealer of soundlabs (I have M1's. Rennaisance 4's and MB1's). Roger West's M1's when paired with Ralph Karsten's MA-2's (and signature magnan speaker cables by the way) changed my life. (that's why I sell them). The Gilmore speakers are the first that rival the electrostats for transparency, purity, coherence, elegance, delicacy, while delivering what up until today electrostats have had difficulty doing -- bass with authority, dynamic range and lack of resonance (although the U1's largely solve this problem). SO one of the readers has expressed exactly the promise that these speakers fulfill -- the wonderful mids and highs of the electrostats coupled with the commanding bass of dynamics. But the GIlmore bass has a coherence that I have never heard from any dynamics.
I hope that you will find this information useful.
Reminds me of a computer manufacturer quite a few years ago, who photographed their product on a mountan top with a scantily-clad babe. This apperared in their magazine ads. However, there was another version of the photo, with limited distribution. Use your imagination.
The computer was not so hot, and the company is long gone.
Hi Duke, yes I agree with Tom. Pretty aggressive marketing but it does catch the eye....and the model is "something" also. But kidding aside the open back is a question, isn't it? Anyway...I am interested in hearing your comments on this speaker compared to the Soundlab M-1's. I figure by the time this speaker is introduced and the bugs are out I will have my toy car (just got a Miata) paid off!! Then we can take a serious look at both of these speakers. BTW, I would love to fax over to you the floor plan of my living/listening room to see if the space is compatible for the M-1's.
Looks like a modern version of the Carver Amazing speakers to me. But the Carvers were very inefficient and needed a lot of power to play loud. Genesis used the Carver ribbons in some of its larger models. From what I hear, the Carver ribbons had irregular response in the high treble and that's why they were crossed over to super tweeters in the Genesis designs.
Time will tell if this new version can fulfill the ambitious promises of its proponents. There is some growing competition in this market right now (ribbon hybrids) so hitting the right price points could also factor heavily into this eqation.
I'd like to see shots of some of the other finishes and that center channel could be dressed up/down a bit too, come to think of it...
I spoke with Gilmore extensively at HE2003 (I think we talked a combined 6 hours or so). He told me about these speakers, and I sort of just noddeb my head politely, heh heh.
Anyway, it is cool that these speakers have come to fruition. Gilmore made them sound UNREAL. 92db efficiency and able to play 120db or so... Planer speakers just do not do this sorta thing normally...
What appeared in the photos as a possible "center channel" with those long legs and two huge "woofers" looked pretty good to me! I'd definitely go for a 30-day trial period with her!
Oh,back to the speakers. What speakers?! Oh yeah, those things on each side of the model. They looked pretty cool too. Could be great, could be another "product of the month". 17Hz is pretty low for an open back dipole radiator, don't you think?
Color me skeptical but when I see that 60" ribbon floating I'll believe it is indeed lighter than air. Sometimes marketing statements turn me off regardless of the merits of the product being offered.
Duke, This loudspeaker looks very promising. Most planar owners crave the dynamics of conventional drivers and most box owners crave the clarity of the planars. Maybe Gilmore has come up with the best of both worlds.
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