There will be additional pictures on the website before the day is over, including a rear view. |
Hello Again,
If you don't mind, I will use this opportunity to repeat what I have said on another forum, which I hope will be helpful to all the participants.
Thought I would take a moment to shed some light on three subjects.
First, our 127dB compression claim.
1) If you put the power necessary into a traditional woofer and try to push it to 127db, it would probably blow-up long before it got there. But we don't have one driver -- we have four to share the power.
2) We actually used a set-up that could generate at least 4000 watts to test the speaker's compression point. We wore ear-plugs too. We used pulses because we didn't want to kill our neighbors, cause a brown out and also because we were trying to emulate musical peaks. Yes, running our drivers under several kwatts of power continuously would not be tolerated politely by the drivers. They couldn't survive that. But music is "dynamic" after all, hence the term "dynamic range".
3) At around 127dB and around 4000 Watts, compression was noted -- 1 watt = 91 dB; 10 watts = 101 dB; 100 watts = 111dB; 1000 watts = 121 db... you get the idea.
So our whole point again about making this claim is two-fold:
a) The speakers get to the threashold of pain long before they compress. So they will play loudly.
b) More importantly, they will handle dynamic peaks of MUSIC very nicely indeed (as sound reinforcement speakers do) and very cleanly (as top planar dipole speakers do), thus effectively emulating the live concert experience.
Second, and somewhat related is the skepticism concerning the ability of our woofers to move sufficient air to accomplish authoritative bass. Cone excursion of drivers on some of the sites referred to are as little as 6mm. We are able to attain big excursions, cleanly -- plus or minus 2 inches! So our four woofers move a lot of air. To do this, "you can't use no ordinary woofer", as my grandmother would say. Not surprisingly, we haven't. It is a very unique, proprietary planar driver with a surround that allows it to function much like a dynamic speaker -- on steroids. The magnets and supporting structure are very robust. As a result, we have a woofer that is very responsive (it moves fast) while remaining very compliant (it tracks the wave form very nicely). It has a very high QTS. The four drivers share the load so they "run cool". Even reasonably high spl levels can be maintained without loss of performance. We think you'll like what we have done, unless your the jealous type.
Third, this is not a Carver facsimile. Again, Carver's Amazing speaker (second version in particular) served as a marvelous inspiration and we have tremendous respect and gratitude for what he has accomplished. We could replicate the Carver speaker for much less money. But then it wouldn't do what the Gilmore speaker can do or sound the same either. Essentially, when compared with the Carver Amazing, every component is different.
1) The panel is Corian and essentially non-resonant. Each wieghs about 80 pounds alone.
2) The ribbon membrane is 10 times thinner and has much different topology.
3) Woofers are very different as you can see.
4) Crossover is in another class altogether as we have described earlier.
5) Even the stand, that is made especially for us by Sound Anchor, is very special.
We don't agree that we are engaged in hype and hyperbole and that our goal is the elicitation of cheap thrills. We know that these speakers are expensive compared to most, but few speaker manufacturers aspire to the same aesthetic, even though they claim that they do . For those that do sincerely aspire to achieve greatness, we believe that our speakers represent an exceptional value relative to other top quality offerings. These speakers in our opinion represent a paradigm change -- that is perhaps why some of you find the claims hard to believe. Most of you are open-minded enough though to accept the possibility that what we have created may in fact be exceptional and we thank you for your graciousness. Those who know Mark Gilmore personally know that he is respected universally for his integrity, generosity, self-effacement and knowledge. We invite you all to visit us as CES and THE-expo. Along with that we ask one favor -- for those who have so far chosen to condemn publicly a product they have not heard and don't understand, I hope that you will be able at least to listen to the speakers with an open mind and in turn be as forthcoming with your praise if you feel that it is justified.
I hope that you have found this helpful.
HB |
HI,
I run Glacier Audio and let me address a few things.
First, Duke thank you for the heads up but I want to make sure that people understand that the ribbon is point 3 mil thick -- not 3 mil. This ribbon is not at all a Bohlender-Grabner element. It uses proprietary technology, has many enhancements and is Kapton based. The statement that has been made is that it is lighter than the air it moves -- it moves a lot of air and if you took the mass of that air, it would be heavier than the ribbon. The ribbon itself is not lighter than air (future versions may be).
In terms of there being nothing new here, I must respectfully disagree. Everything is new. Mark will be the first to admit that he is indebted to Carver's past efforts for inspiration. But the following performance numbers are real -- they don't happen because of magic -- they happen because of good engineering and a lot of thought and analysis and experimentation by the creator, Mark Gilmore, who is one of the most knowledgeable guys in audio that I know of.
For model 2 --
Freq response: 17HZ to 26 KHZ
Compresses at 127dB (dynamic range)
Corian panel is essentially resonant free in audio frequencies
Linkwitz-Riley Crossover using highest quality components including air-core inductors (for lowest DC resistance possible) and non-polar capacitors.
92 db efficient.
woofers are hybrid planars -- they are flat-faced like planars with a topology that matches the ribbon for exceptional coherence (a first) with the ability to move in and out like a dynamic speaker and thus move tons of air -- thus bass with great authority -- and clean!
Being a dipole cuts down on the efficiency -- if the speaker were in a box, it would be at least 3dB more efficient, probably more like 6db -- but there is nothing like a well constructed planar dipole for emulating the real musical experience. And having dipole bass helps reduce standing waves since there is averaging which occurs from reflections.
As I mentioned in AudioAsylum, I am a proud owner and dealer of soundlabs (I have M1's. Rennaisance 4's and MB1's). Roger West's M1's when paired with Ralph Karsten's MA-2's (and signature magnan speaker cables by the way) changed my life. (that's why I sell them). The Gilmore speakers are the first that rival the electrostats for transparency, purity, coherence, elegance, delicacy, while delivering what up until today electrostats have had difficulty doing -- bass with authority, dynamic range and lack of resonance (although the U1's largely solve this problem). SO one of the readers has expressed exactly the promise that these speakers fulfill -- the wonderful mids and highs of the electrostats coupled with the commanding bass of dynamics. But the GIlmore bass has a coherence that I have never heard from any dynamics.
I hope that you will find this information useful.
Thanks |
Yes, but it doesn't make a very good speaker membrane. It's not quite as responsive as .3mil Kapton. |
This is not a sensitivity measurement. I am sorry that you are having difficulty believing this claim, but very simply it is true -- compression has to do with when, despite the fact that you are adding power, the speaker doesn't get any louder. This "compression point" on the Gilmore AUdio speakers is 127dB. |
Neat stuff. We'll see what the future brings. Roger West's M1's membrane is .1 mil (point one mil) thick. A very reasonable target to shoot for. But you do agree that the membrane can be lighter than the total mass of the air it moves. You agree with this, correct? Also, it would take a lot of helium to get those 180 lb a piece Model 2's to liftoff. |
You seem like a smart guy. Let me say a few things.
You need to lighten up a little bit. "We'll see what the future brings" comment was meant partially tongue in cheek but also out of respect for future technologies that will take a very different approach to sound reproduction. Of course membranes themselves will never be lighter than air -- you can just look at the periodic chart to figure that one out. But in fact, the claim that we are making, which Soundlab essentially makes also as well as other respected manufacturers that use ultra light membrane technologies, is that our membrance is very light and that that fact is important -- because lightness improves responsiveness and reduces distortion. SO this is a critical issue and the fact is that most drivers are relatively very heavy and don't move more air mass than their own mass. Ours do and that is significant This is hardly snake oil and hype. This is a critical distinction that can be measured. It is interesting to watch a small piece of our .3mil kapton membrane stay afloat for quite a while in a room, buffeted only by the normal air currents found in the home. In any case, we invite you to visit us at CES and THE-expo so you can see for yourself what we are talking about.
Thanks. |
Please bring your SPL meter to the CES and THE-expo to see for yourself. Sometimes paradigm changes are hard to accept. That is what we are looking at. |
FIrst, let me thank you for your kind words. But I need to respectfully disagree about the science you are espousing. Sound involves the actual movement of air molecules. It is not like light waves propogating in ether. It is the movement of air molecules due to pressure differentials that are created by sound waves -- the movement of molecules from areas of higher concentration to lower concentration. |
One clarification: Total excursion is 2 inches or plus or minus 1 inch.
I don't know what to tell you and your friendly "expert" when you say that the cone doesn't go "in and out by 1 inch each way", except that you are wrong. Very simply, it does. How you can determine from a web-based pitcutre with resolution around 72dpi that "obviously it doesn't" is beyond me. The fact that you are so self-assured yet wrong should be embarrassing to both you and your "expert" friend. So I guess you are calling us a liar publicly. Then I expect a public apology from you personally and from you on behlaf of your "expert" when you see the physical proof that you are wrong.
You have an interesting strategy -- deny what we say is true as possible based on manufactured evidence and then use that newly acclaimed "fact" as refutation.
In terms of your other silly comment concerning the high QTS and weakness of the magnet, what does that have to do with anything? The magnet is exactly as strong as it needs to be given the open baffle design (no back pressure) and the responsiveness and compliance that is sought. This is called good engineering. Who cares that it doesn't match someone elses specs -- what does that have to do with anything? Heavy magnets require lots of power to make them responsive. Ours is as "heavy" as it needs to be given our design objectives.
Finally, our bass drivers on the model 2 operate from 200 Hz to 17Hz
(-3db at 17Hz, full output at 22Hz). And in terms of your claim that there is "no way 4 -12 inch dipole drivers will come close to (moving) the volume of air talked about" -- well congratulations, you are wrong again. At least you are consistent. |
Your questions seem to be mostly in the form of statements, most of which are somewhat off the mark. Let me begin.
What makes you think that in order to be a "line source" that something needs to go from "floor to ceiling". What home speaker that claims to be a line source goes from floor to ceiling? If you want to see some examples of how folks create line sources in the pro audio world for live sound, go to www.meyersound.com. A line source in one sense is anything that is greater than a point source. But you are chastising us for something that we do better than any other ribbon based planar that we know of -- so your complaint is hard to answer. This is quite true of your other comments. But I will try to proceed one by one.
Vertical dispersion starts at 60 and 40 inches respectively and horizontal dispersion is 60 degrees.
If I am a reasonable distance back from the spekaer, I get a very full soundstage from the model 3. The sound doesn't truncate somehow above 40 inches --why would it?
We tilt the speakers back to increase disperson slightly but mainly so the speaker doesn't fall over -- and thus for aesthetics -- this way we can have a cute stand in the back instead of clunky feet on the front and back.
Whatever comb filtering effect is created by our topology, it is less than anyone elses -- not more because of it.
I want to clarify something with Mark concerning the doppler distortion and I will get back to you. I know that it is not a factor and I want to confirm that my understanding as to why is correct.
There are binding posts on the woofers (we are using Cardas) and if you are not seeing them, it is because of the perspective of the shot. The crossover is in a separate box that weighs sixty pounds and rests on the floor behind the speker. We are thinking about having a see through top so you can enjoy the view -- its quite impressive.
I agree with your statement that "I guess the proof will be in the listening."
Concerning the "center channel" and Mark's purported relationship to her:
No, its not Mrs. Gilmore. Mrs. Gilmore is 6'4" tall, weighs 300 pounds and has killed both of her former husbands with her bare hands for their indiscretions. Consequently, Mark has had incentive to concentrate on audio research and development and not stray or be distracted. As a result, marital bliss and his personal well-being have been sustained and therefore he has a lot to smile about. The woman in the picture is an alien from the planet Xenon. She is the latest version of their Humanoid Replications Program HRP. Given the advanced technological sophistication of her alien society, she has been an invaluable asset in helping Mark develop the special technology he is using in his speaker. As a token of appreciation, Mark has allowed her to participate in the photo shoot, thus helping her realize one of her lifetime dreams. It's nice to know that some alien societies share many of the same aspirations as us humans, thus providing a framework for cooperation and peace. These photos are as much a tribute to that cooperative spirit as they are a tribute to the fine example of advanced audio technology epitomized by the Gilmore Audio Model 2's and 3's.
Hope you found this helpful. |
Two points:
1) Doppler distortion:
Re ribbon: Doppler distortion, which results in intermodulation distortion, doesn't really go into effect until around 180Hz. We crossover at 200Hz for that reason among others, so it is not a factor for the ribbon.
Re woofers: Yes, doppler distortion is a consideration, but there is minimal doppler distortion from our planar hybrid woofers because of the actual technology employed. This is linked to how the planar membrane itself is constructed and excited -- I can't say anything else because to do so would reveal proprietary intellectual property. Also, remember, any distortion is shared among 4 woofers -- overall distortion will be perceived as less for that reason vs a single driver topology. Finally, the fact that the woofer's excursion is 2 inches maximum doesn't mean that it is out there flapping around at the limit all the time, if ever. Most of the time, even at very impressive spl's with very demaning source material, the 4 woofers are cruising along at levels way below maximum performance levels, thanks to their synergistic design. At very high spl's, there is of course increased distortion, but the signal to noise ratio saves the day -- when the distortion is relatively high overall, it is still not relatively high compared to the signal. The Gilmore speakers, especially the model 2's, can play bass louder and cleaner than any other dipole or planar for sure and any home audio dynamic speakers we know of.
Concerning a forum participant's concerns that these speakers should not be called planars -- I think that the silliness of this perspective has already been pointed out by other forum participants. Let me add three other considerations. There is no box,the panel is flat and the radiating elements are all on the same plane -- thus the term planar.
Thanks again. |
Yes, there was a typo. Total excursion is 2 inches, which is plus or minus 1 inch, not plus or minus 2 inches. It's as simple as that. A number of people on the forum figured that out by themselves. I wanted to make sure that it was clear. That' what people with integrity do -- they admit when they are wrong and stand firm when they believe that they are right. |
Yes, that pricing is correct. Sorry, but I was not permitted by the moderator to state the price. I tried to answer the forum earlier. We are able to offer that price because we will be selling them predominantly through home-based showrooms, rather than through the traditional dealer network -- otherwise they would have to be priced even higher. We hope to have a national network of these home showrooms in the near future. Eight should be open before Christmas. |
If you go on ebay, you can see the reports on me as "buyerwithintegrity". A perfect record with over 600 transactions. I took this name on audiogon several years ago before I even met Mark Gilmore. I took this moniker because I believe that integrity is one of the most important qualities that anyone can have in their business dealings. And I believe that I set a standard when it comes to doing business with integrity. I have been that way my whole life. I hope that you will have the opportunity to meet me so that you can look me in the eye and see for yourself. Fortunately, some of you have seen the satirical tone in the ads. A big part of audio for me is having fun. One of the most fun things in life is being involved with beautiful things. I have been involved with music for most of my life -- still play with some of the best guys on their instruments in the world. I have dreamed my whole life of having the finest musical reproduction system in the world. And when you think about what very serious audiophiles spend, what we have to offer brings the "best of class" within many more people's reach. I am sorry that we can not sell these speakers for 1/4 the price. That would make me very happy. My father was one of the founders of the discount store industry in this country -- discounting is in my blood. But I can say without reservation that these speakers are well worth the money relative to those offerings that aspire to be the best.
Some of you know that Duke and Albert Porter are serious folks and well-meaning folks. WE have a lot of such people assoicated with us: Mr. Tri Dung from Tri-Planar; Mr. Roger West from Soundlab whose speakers changed my life; Ralph Karsten from Atma-Sphere, winner of more Golden Ear Awards than any other company as far as we know; Donna and Kirk from SOTA turntables; Bob from Sound Anchor; the Magnans from Magnan Cables; All wonderful people, trying to do the right thing, with a great passion for music and music reproduction.
We are for real...and we respect healthy and respectful skepticism. We have no problem proving ourselves to the audiophile community. We feel confident about our ability to gain the respect of those who are sincere and knowledgeable. The product in our opinion speaks for itself. The claims we make aare as we see it, measure it and hear it. I hope after hearing and seeing Mr. Gilmore's creations that you will agree that it is special. |
I do not know Mr. Errivera; but it is obvoius that he has first-hand experience and has some important insights for all to read. Mark GIlmore has a set of modified Amazings in his living room. As I said before, Mr. Carver's speakers were a wonderful inspiration to Mark to reach even higher -- to achieve something even more remarkable. The efficiency issue has been solved and the GIlmore speakers offer many other enhancements. I appreciate Mr. Errivera's comments. Thank you sir. |
One more try:
At 60 degree horizontal dispersion, it is 3dB down. Considering that bass is not directional, 500 HZ is when this becomes significant (directional); below that things are pretty much omni-directional.
In terms of the vertical dispersion, what I can tell you is that it is enough. You stand up, you sit down, nothing really changes. That's why we really haven't bothered to measure it. There's another neat thing about well constructed line sources -- they are often louder at 3 meters than one meter, even though we measure sensitivity at 1 meter because every one else does.
Isn't life grand? |
WE are done with you. You don't know what you don't know and it is clear that you don't want to learn either. You clearly have no conception about what we are doing because you are blinded by a paradigm which is totally irrelevant to our speake. In turn your arguments totally miss the mark. We are very familiar with Mr. Linkwitz and his marvelous work and I dare say, we understand it perhaps a bit better than you .. among other things. FInally, we don't need any machine to test our excursion. You can push the planar woofer with your finger and measure it. Now its just a matter of getting enough power to make it move that far -- which someone couldn't stand to listen to anyway.
BYE for good. |
Hello Brentslone,
Yes, from the picture, this True-tone replica looks like our Gilmore Audio driver (the dynavox may actually still be made by True-tone). But if you had the two to compare side-by-side you would see quite a difference physically, which translates into dramatic performance differences.
Our aluminized surface is made from a totally different material that is much thicker, yet the overall mass of our driver is considerably less -- thus it is much more responsive with much less distortion (about an order of magnitude less -- it can take 10dB more power before achieving same distortion level).
Our frame is die cast -- theirs is stamped. Ours is essentially non-resonant -- there's rings like a bell.
Magnet structure, venting, heat sinks are in a totally different realm. Our woofers don't get hot when they are pushed. In fact, there is almost no obvious increase in temperature, thus performance parameters stay constant.
Again, we make our own (as we do the ribbons) and they are the result of years of development. They have much less distortion and are much more responsive than any woofer we know of; they can take incredible amounts of power and remain cool as a cucumber; they go lower (about 5Hz lower). So they play louder and with much more authority, have much lower mass so they respond much quicker, have much less resonance so they play much cleaner, and as a result of both of these have much less distortion. And they go lower. Other than that, they are the same.
The Carver legacy was a starting point and a fine one. Mark was able to understand the potential in that design -- a potential that was yet to be realized . The Gilmore Audio speakers represent a dramatic improvement in every performance parameter -- Dramatic! In this sense, the Amazings are a very distant cousin. Every component needed to be redesigned in order for these improvements to be achieved -- stand, panel, drivers, cross-over. These were not simply upgrades and tweaks -- these were major redesign initiatives. The result --the best home audio speaker that ever was in our opinion. They will be ready for shipment to end- users by the beginning of April and will be in the Glacier Showrooms and affiliated dealerships around the country just before then. So soon you will have a chance to hear them firsthand and judge for yourself. |
