All that I am convinced of with the HiFi Tuning fuses is that the logo is always in the same direction. Of course, we really don't know which direction the arrow should go. If the hot lead goes into the circuit and the neutral comes out, presumably the arrow should go from the hot IEC lead into the component.
Mapman, yes data hopefully suggests that the null hypothesis is rejectable and thus that something is going on between the variables. The hypothesis is tentatively supported.
I don't think we are near to stating a hypothesis much less testing it properly. Rather we are not even engaged in assessing a hypothesis, we are dealing in an anecdotal world, such as wine tastes, etc. All that am saying is that it is ridiculous to a priori reject that any variable can be found that contributes to the sound of a fuse. |
"All that am saying is that it is ridiculous to a priori reject that any variable can be found that contributes to the sound of a fuse."
I would agree if reworded slightly.
"All that am saying is that it is ridiculous to a priori reject that any variable that might be found contributes to the sound of a fuse."
That would include the user thinking he heard a difference, not just factors with the electronic equipment. That can clearly be a factor. |
Bryon, you and Al think there are NON-QUALITATIVE reasons to believe fuses/direction can have audible effects? That's very interesting. Do you mean psychological reasons? Please expand. |
Bryon, you and Al think there are NON-QUALITATIVE reasons to believe fuses/direction can have audible effects? That's very interesting. Do you mean psychological reasons? Please expand. My statement of Al's views in my previous post was based on the same information you have access to -- what Al has said in this thread. So I cannot speak for him beyond what I already have. Speaking for myself, the answer to your question is no, I wasn't talking about "psychological reasons" when I used the phrase "non-quantitative" (not "non-qualitative," as you wrote). I was simply talking about ANECDOTAL evidence, which is typically non-quantitative. But we've been through all this already. On 4/28, you wrote... B C - not sure why you use the word intuition, that appears to be your way of saying this whole thing is psychological. To which I replied... As far as my own view, I made it clear that I DON'T believe that fancy fuses are nonsense, though I acknowledge that it is a possibility. So you could put me down as a Tentative Believer. That is a far cry from saying the whole thing is psychological. My view has not changed since then. Bryon |
Geoff, I would put it that all of the technical rationale, technical data, and technical speculation that I have seen offered to explain the claimed benefits of expensive fuses, and Bryon has done a particularly noteworthy job of unearthing much of that, has been shot down on technical grounds by me, Roger, and others.
What remains is anecdotal evidence. What I have said regarding that is that I suspect that SOME (but not all) of that evidence is the result of either failure to recognize and control extraneous variables, or system dependent effects that in other systems may make either no difference or a negative difference, or misperception.
The reader can (and will) make his or her own decision as to how to proceed.
Regards,
-- Al |
Almarg, you said!
"What remains is anecdotal evidence. What I have said regarding that is that I suspect that SOME (but not all) of that evidence is the result of either failure to recognize and control extraneous variables, or system dependent effects that in other systems may make either no difference or a negative difference, or misperception."
I'm not sure what you refer to as "anecdotal evidence" can be so easily dismissed. I'm referring to evidence that the aftermarket fuses work, not how they work. The aftermarket fuses from Hi Fi Tuning, Furutech, Isoclean and perhaps others have been thoroughly reviewed in the press, usually with rave reviews. Every important audio magazine has reviewed them. There is also the evidence of many users of aftermarket fuses who have posted on the subject on a number of forums over the years. Could this really be mass hallucination, placebo effect, expectation bias, or some sort of tweak frenzy? I tend to doubt it. |
Yep. No doubt it could be. Nothing has been proven as best i can tell. |
Mapman, you said,
"Yep. No doubt it could be. Nothing has been proven as best i can tell. "
Nobody is saying there is proof or there even needs to be proof. But there is evidence, and plenty of it. This is all a little bit like the last holdouts in 12 Angry Men - "You can't prove he didn't do it," and "You can throw away all the other evidence." |
It is very possible that the reported observations regarding benefits of certain fuses are biased. |
Mapman, Of course there's such a thing as bias, nobody would disagree with that, but bias can be eliminated. You don't really think that all the positive reviews over the years, by experienced reviewers, and all the audiophile reports, also by experienced listeners, were the result of bias, do you? If so, you get the gold star for Skepticism. |
With the resistance they measured being as low as they say it is, these fuses would most likely have the least influence on the sound as mentioned earlier in this this thread. The resistors, including those right in the audio signal path, have a measurable resistance tolerance difference (for even single resistors) alone, is a lot higher than this.
Then, if anyone can hear this minute resistance difference, what could they hear if these are used in the primary side of the power supply? The primary is 60 cycles AC. With these fuses having more more resistance in one direction, that may give some kind of problem with half of the AC cycle. This resistance difference may possibly cause it to resemble something like AC ripple, that results from using a half-wave rectifier instead of a full-wave rectifier.
That extra resistance in that one direction, of every 60 cycles, might even possibly introduce an odd new 30 cycle noise, since it is fighting more against half of the 60 cycle current flow, in that one direction. If this different value measured that can influence the sound to the point it could be heard, then possibly this new noise may be introduced by this new fuse also.
Still, after all of the possibilities I'm thinking of, I don't think this minute measured value is going to change anything we can hear, no matter where these may be used. I still discount it as too little to be heard anywhere it it is used.
Again, way too little of resistance to even think about, especially when you think all all the other components, that have a lot more resistance that varies so much more, in so many more parts. And, these parts vary a lot more than this from one amp, to another of the same brand made side by side, include matching mono-block amps. The same would go for any stereo components resistance variance, between the left and right channels.
Don't forget to consider how many times the electric traveled through this fuse, power switch, cord, house wiring, and the wire (possibly aluminum) to the transformer, its connectors, through all of the transformer's secondary wiring, and back through that little fuse again. This makes the fuse even more insignificant, if you take all of this into consideration.
|
Tbg,
You indicated a preference for slo blow fuses.
The main function of a fuse is protection. Are you sure use of slos blow fuses is recommended for your gear? They may be more conductive than thin filament types but may not be appropriate always as a substitute. |
Is fox news biased?
How about cnn?
These are major providers of news to millions.
So yes it is quite possible. |
Mapman, you say, "That would include the user thinking he heard a difference, not just factors with the electronic equipment. That can clearly be a factor." Sorry, I cannot agree to that as you are making an a priori judgment. I don't "think" I heard a difference, I did. You perhaps only think you did not hear a difference.
I only use slowblow fuses in amps normally but IsoClean only makes slowblow fuses. Surge current is the reason to use slowblow. I guess were you to have a massive preamp power supply one might be needed there. |
Mapman, you said,
"Is fox news biased?
How about cnn?
These are major providers of news to millions."
That is an excellent example of a Strawman Argument. It is illogical to argue that because a news station is biased that all tests of an audio device or component are biased. I suppose that is a skeptic's wishful thinking. As I already pointed out, nobody is saying (expectation) bias does not exist in audio, it's just that bias can be eliminated as a culprit (by care in testing). Besides, the type of bias that appears to apply in this case is actually negative bias, since most skeptics like yourself and others are predisposed to believe the fuse cannot possibly work. You won't hear it because you psyched yourself out. Lol |
Geof,
As a vendor of controversial tweak audio products, is it reasonable to think that you might be biased?
When i start my audiophile fuse business and bring the funky little fuse to market, i will likely become a member of that club also if you would have me. |
Actually, I am not biased, not in the sense you mean. I am actually quite objective and scientific. I have a sneaking suspicion you're not quite ready to be a member of that club. |
Hifitimme, all of what you say maybe true, but it may be that it is "significant." Why do fuses sound different? That is the real question with which you should focus. As they sound different, what is wrong with people buying what they prefer? Would you argue that all wines differ insignificantly and that people should buy the lowest price ones? |
There is nothing wrong with people buying what they want but surely nobody can object to getting the facts straight as well? |
Hifitime, you make some excellent points regarding the measured resistance of the fuses. The same arguments can apply to be made to the measured noise as presented in the HI FI Tuning data. But I think this was really the point of the data - to show that the electrical characteristics, at least the two obvious ones they measured, of a fuse are not symmetrical (i.e., they are directional) and that the (very small) measured differences are NOT stufficient to account for the difference in sound, as Hi Fi Tuning is careful to point out. Essentially, you are agreeing with Hi Fi Tuning.
Next up for consideration, Things that are Too Small to have any impact on the sound. That should be fun! |
Twilight Zone!
Where's Rod Serling to explain these things when you need him?
Seems to me the two possibilities (not mutually exclusive) are the differences in fuses do make a noticeable difference in sound or the listeners think they heard a difference that they attributed to the fuse but in fact they were mistaken. |
So based on the measured data provided, I'm still leaning towards that the electrical effect of the fuse is in general too insignificant to matter.
Maybe someone else will come up with some new measured data to contradict? I will not discount hearsay as data categorically but it will take a lot of that from a lot of people that I trust to sway my opinion. |
Hi Mapman - It seems like there's a growing consensus that IF fuses and/or fuse direction have audible effects, it must be as a result of fuse parameters that are either unmeasured or unmeasurable. If that's true, then the only "evidence" available for deciding whether fuses have audible effects is personal experience and anecdotal reports.
Recently I joined the ranks of those who believe they've heard differences among fuses (but, in my case, not fuse direction). By the end of this week, I will have fuses from each of the major manufacturers - Isoclean, Furutech, and Hifi Tuning. So I should have more to report by the weekend, FWIW.
Headed deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole. I hope I can find my way back.
Bryon |
Bryon,
You are a brave man!
Will look forward to your findings.
Remember that the primary function of a fuse is to provide protection against current surges. If a fuse sounds great but fails to blow when it should, that would be a no go for me.
Also I would be interested in value proposition as I am with all audio gear. IE is the cost justified? Is the cost of "audiophile fuses" justified compared to similar fuses sold for general use?
Also how can you determine if the same fuse will produce similar results in different designs, or at least reliably positive results in all cases?
THose are my questions. I don't expect you to answer them all for free, but might as well get them out there. |
All good questions, Mapman. I won't pretend to know the answers. I'm just trying to do my part to keep the streets safe! ;-)
bc |
Bryon, Imagine that you listen to your system at 5:50PM to establish a baseline and again with new fuse at 6:00PM. At 6:00PM radio stations cut power in half according to FCC regulations - you detected improvement. Now you test other fuses. You already know that original stock fuse was not as good as expensive fuses, therefore you believe in differences between them. Once you believe there are likely differences (or perhaps wife keeps adjusted dimmer switch) you will hear it . It is difficult to eliminate all influences including movement/position of cables during fuse replacement, not to mention placebo effect. You move your amp to change fuse direction and cables got better contact - improvement in sound. Now when you change direction again placebo effect is much stronger since you already heard improvement one way. |
Yes, good point Kijanki!
I tend to shy away from a/b tests likely involving subtle and unpredictable differences because it is so hard to control all variables that can affect sound in subtle ways.
Now when I hear a consensus that clear major differences can be heard in a predictable manner, I tend to take more notice.
BE careful Bryon. Those streets could be slippery! |
It's humorous to read this sort of thing, people getting all stressed out about a simple test. Why it's almost like superstition. I guess if you hear about placebo and expectation bias and unknown variables enough it'll psych anyone out.
Faint heart ne'r won fair maiden.
;-) |
"It's humorous to read this sort of thing, people getting all stressed out about a simple test. Why it's almost like superstition. I guess if you hear about placebo and expectation bias and unknown variables enough it'll psych anyone out. "
Not everyone..... |
"Now when I hear a consensus that clear major differences can be heard in a predictable manner, I tend to take more notice"
I'm also wary of small tweaks, since my hearing is perhaps less than perfect, but I have to admit that some small tweaks worked for me in the past, including more consistent sound without clapper. |
Kijanki and Mapman - For my little experiment, I will take care to control as many potentially confounding variables as possible. For example, I will... ...conduct the experiment late at night. ...turn everything electronic outside the system off. ...turn off all the house lights. ...disable the computer modem. ...move the audio equipment only once to access the fuses. ...take care not to touch anything else when swapping fuses. ...clean all the fuses with the same contact cleaner. ...minimize the amount of time the amp is powered down for swaps. ...give the same amount of time for the amp to warm up after a swap. ...keep track of which direction the fuses are pointed. ...use the same 2 pieces of music to evaluate. ...never never never touch the volume control. ...ask the wife to leave the room (nicely). ...ask the dog to leave the room. ...strap on my tin foil hat. ...put on my listening ears. While that hardly ensures a foolproof procedure, it may assuage some of your concerns about the validity of my methodology. But perhaps the greater concern is not my methodology but my psychology. Wait a sec, have you been talking to my wife? Like I tell her, my psychology is what it is, so it's better to adjust your expectations downward. Having said that, I'll try not to let my psychology destroy the validity of the test. I have at least one thing going for me... A common criticism of audiophiles who buy expensive toys of questionable value is "You paid WHAT for it? Of course you're going to hear improvements from it!" No doubt that is true for some folks, but I think this is one form of self delusion that I am fairly resistant to. In other words, I doubt my judgments about sound quality will be influenced by the price of the fancy fuses. When I go to a restaurant, I eat what's on the plate and I say, "That was good" or "I'm never coming back here." I don't adjust my feelings about the food when I see the bill. The meal could be $15 at Fat Matt's Ribs Shack in Georgia or $1500 at Louis XV in Monte Carlo. The food at Fat Matt's was awesome. The food at Louis XV sucked. I didn't let the fact that Louis XV cost 100 times more than Fat Matt's change my opinion. Perhaps that won't be much reassurance, but it's all I've got. Bryon |
How about listening both with hands cupped behind the ear and without in each case?
That's the cheapest and consistently best tweak that I know of! :-)
Also just to be sure, you have no financial interest in expensive audiophile fuses/tweaks right?
Seriously, that would be a killer for me. When I launch my funky fuse business, my 100% pure unbiased opinions will be shot right down the drain I fear.
Funky fuses. $$$$$$$s! |
Bryon, be sure to turn OFF and UNPLUG! Do test with preamp (regulated supplies) as well. Good luck. |
05-16-12: Mapman
Also just to be sure, you have no financial interest in expensive audiophile fuses/tweaks right? Me? No. But my wife does. Her financial interest is that I stop buying them. 05-16-12: Kijanki
Bryon, be sure to turn OFF and UNPLUG! Do test with preamp (regulated supplies) as well. I just received an Isoclean fuse for the preamp, so I will be A/B'ing the preamp as well as the amp. In my earlier tests, I've been turning the amp off, but not unplugging it. Am I asking to get fried? bc |
To add some fuel to the fire... I found at least one amp designed by a well regarded manufacturer that includes fancy fuses: Spectron's Musician III Mk2. Spectron's Senior Engineer, Simon Thacher, weighed in on the value of fancy fuses a while back, right here on A'gon... It is my firm opinion that HiFi Tuning fuses are very synergistic with our amplifiers, Spectron Musician III SE. For my ears they clearly and without any question remove "gray noise" across the Spectron from high frequencies to low - making sound much more "liquid" and involving. FWIW. |
"Me? No. But my wife does. Her financial interest is that I stop buying them."
Bryon, you are too funny!
"For my ears they clearly and without any question remove "gray noise" across the Spectron from high frequencies to low - making sound much more "liquid" and involving."
Well fuses are not supposed to act as filters I think, but whatever.
I like any fuse that any particular qualified designer recommends for their gear.
Its when I have to decide for myself or when tweak mongers tell me what works or not that I tend to think twice. |
He also says:
"I do not hear more clarity, increase in soundstage or other things many people claim"
He also mentions:
"we made arrangement with the distributor for some Spectron discount"
which sounds to me like marketing ploy.
"Am I asking to get fried?" - Yes, you do!
|
Does anyone remember Peter Aczel, the Audio Critic?
Way back in my audio salad days he said the fuses used to protect speakers were degrading the sound of the speakers.
He never explained why or how just that they did.
Most folks with Maggies like me tried omitting the fuse and yes the sound was better.
I used to use romex snipped to size with exposed tips.
Very easy for the fuse skeptics who own fuse protected speakers to give this a try, Just don't be foolhardy, act with caution, they are your speakers afterall.
Well I had no bad luck, even when I bypassed speaker protection fuses in some of my tube and solid state power amps.
When the Iso Cleans came out I tried them because I already had expereince with how degrading fuses can be.
The treat would be better sound WITH protection.
Yes the upgraded fuses were less veiling than the stock fuses, very similar to bypassing the fuse altogether.
Some may say that just the action of inserting fuses is akin to plugging and unplugging interconnects for example, that you're cleaning the contacts.Also how old are those fuses you've been using?
But it's esy enough to swap old for Supremes back and forth and have a listen, but you have to listen to specific instruments,like cymbals(my choice).
Are they more solid, or tinny,is there more or less sheen and shimmer? Is the decay longer and more pronounced?
You need to learn how to listen for differences.
If you don't know how to listen critically and get lost up in the music, you'll have a hard time hearing any improvement.
Also have you done all that you can with your gear and the power going into it so that differences can be more noticeable?
Too many times people get frustrated and write off things like fuses, power cords etc,because they either expect a single fuse or power cord to transform an entry level system into a High End one, or they just haven;'t learned how to critique the sound of their system.
You have to wear two hats in this game.
Sometime you don the cap of the music lover ,but other times you need to separate the music from the gear and fixate on the gear.
Don't worry if someone calls you a gear head.
Sometimes to get the most music out of the gear you have to do more than turn the stuff on.
Don't expect the "Magic" to happen if you don't do your part.
The "magic" begins when you start to clean up all the loose ends,get rid of the weak links, and tune your ears as well as the gear.
If you roll tubes and like to upgrade caps in old amps because it makes them sound better,a fuse upgrade should be your cup of tea. |
05-16-12: Bryoncunningham
I found at least one amp designed by a well regarded manufacturer that includes fancy fuses: Spectron's Musician III Mk2.
Spectron's Senior Engineer, Simon Thacher, weighed in on the value of fancy fuses a while back, right here on A'gon...
It is my firm opinion that HiFi Tuning fuses are very synergistic with our amplifiers, Spectron Musician III SE. For my ears they clearly and without any question remove "gray noise" across the Spectron from high frequencies to low - making sound much more "liquid" and involving. Hmm. Just speculating, of course, but given that Class D amplifiers can be expected to have a significant amount of RF noise running around inside them as a result of the high speed switching processes that are going on, perhaps the material used to enclose the body of the HiFi-Tuning fuses lessens the amount of that noise that is picked up by the conductor within the fuse, compared to a glass body. Or perhaps the frequency content of the noise that is picked up is at least altered to some degree. That would seem kind of far-fetched, considering other opportunities that undoubtedly exist nearby for that noise to couple onto the AC wiring, but who knows? Of course, there would be no reason to expect whatever significance that kind of effect might have in a Spectron Class D amplifier to have much if any applicability to other components, especially if they are not amplifiers, and Class D amplifiers in particular. Re unplugging, if you can insert the fuse into the cap of the holder prior to inserting it into the component, and then insert the fuse + cap into the part of the holder that is mounted on the component WITHOUT TOUCHING ANY METAL on the fuse or any part of the holder, you'll be ok. If you were to first insert the fuse into the part of the holder that is mounted on the amp, intending to subsequently insert the cap over the inserted fuse, you would not necessarily escape unscathed. Re the Louis XV menu, OMG! 145 Euros for a little over 3 ounces of 2002 Leoville Las Cases, which is probably many years away from being at its peak. Makes $80 fuses seem like a bargain :-) Best, -- Al |
Unplugging a component from the wall and plugging it back in often results in a noticeable degradation of sound, if you're paying attention to such things, until such time as the contact between the plug and the wall socket has a chance to "reestablish" itself, which can take a few days or longer. In fact, Disturbing cables or power cords in any way should be scrupulously avoided IMO, especially during tests.
Geoff |
Haven't done the math but would not surprise me if a fuse directly in the signal path in a speaker like Magnepan is more significant in terms of resistance than in an amp say and would therefore have a better chance of making a discernible difference. I might buy that and be willing to give it a try. But I would still argue that the better fuse still need not cost much more than the standard as anything labeled "audiophile" typically does. But if the results were consistently repeatable and significant enough, I would likley then be willing to pay more.
$30 for a fuse is outrageous but won't send anybody to the poor house I suppose if they are already running a big buck system.
It works from a business perspective for the audiophile tweak makers to make their case based on possible vague benefits associated with the unknown. As opposed to clearly identifiable benefit with an easy money back guarantee perhaps. How do you know until you try? Can't try until you buy! What a racket! |
Bryon, Be sure that you don't have any DC on power line. Electrons in the fuse wire don't move with AC (vibrate in place) but with DC they will very slowly move (called "drift velocity") from your expensive fuse into home wiring.
Don't let expensive electrons, that you paid for, drift away! |
Oh, as long as the fancy expensive fuse does not sound WORSE than the standard, most are not likely to return it even if they can. Its a $30 insurance policy essentially. No problem. Except the seller made a huge profit for nothing. Everyone's happy but especially the guy who made a huge profit on a cheap placebo tweak. |
Kijanki, LOL! :-)
Best regards,
-- Al |
Mapman, you're right. It is law of proportions - I wouldn't pay $100 for the fuse for my $1k DAC but wouldn't hesitate with $10k DAC. Buyer's remorse would be quickly replaced by buyer's denial so strong, that even fact that these fuses have not been tested or approved by any agency, wouldn't matter. |
"Everyone's happy but especially the guy who made a huge profit on a cheap placebo tweak."
Frankly, I don't think I would be happy at that point knowing that the fruit of such dealings was now in my signal path, even if it sounds just fine. |
"fact that these fuses have not been tested or approved by any agency, wouldn't matter."
The buyer should get the fuse for discounted price compared to standard then since fuse might not even do the thing it was designed to do properly, which is blow when there is a current surge to protect your gear.
SO a risk is that if fuse does not function correctly to protect gear as it should, damage to other parts of your equipment may occur and sound actually deteriorate before you realize it. I doubt that will sound better to anyone! |
05-16-12: Almarg
Just speculating, of course, but given that Class D amplifiers can be expected to have a significant amount of RF noise running around inside them as a result of the high speed switching processes that are going on, perhaps the material used to enclose the body of the HiFi-Tuning fuses lessens the amount of that noise that is picked up by the conductor within the fuse, compared to a glass body. Or perhaps the frequency content of the noise that is picked up is at least altered to some degree. I had roughly the same thought, Al. My preamp is filled with digital circuitry, so maybe I will hear benefits from one of the fancy fuses in it. 05-16-12: Kijanki
Bryon, be sure to turn OFF and UNPLUG!
05-16-12: Geoffkait
Unplugging a component from the wall and plugging it back in often results in a noticeable degradation of sound, if you're paying attention to such things, until such time as the contact between the plug and the wall socket has a chance to "reestablish" itself, which can take a few days or longer. In fact, Disturbing cables or power cords in any way should be scrupulously avoided IMO, especially during tests. Great, now I have to choose between experimental validity and experimental survivability. Hmm. Think. Think. Got it... Is anyone here available this weekend to assist with my fuse swapping experiment? You do the swapping and I do the listening? Being minimally conductive is a plus, but not a necessity. Bryon |
05-16-12: Kijanki
Bryon, Be sure that you don't have any DC on power line. Electrons in the fuse wire don't move with AC (vibrate in place) but with DC they will very slowly move (called "drift velocity") from your expensive fuse into home wiring. Don't let expensive electrons, that you paid for, drift away! No need for concern. I've installed a Dark Energy Electron Regulator of my own design. It works through a proprietary technology called Quantum Sequestering,* in which Higgs Bosons are suspended in an electromagnetic field through Superconductive Supercolliding Supersymmetry. This revolutionary technology is almost exactly like the Large Hadron Collider, but considerably smaller and with no moving parts. The Dark Energy Electron Regulator (D.E.E.R.) will be available in the fourth quarter of 2012 at a special introductory price of $4,999 for the standard edition. The Special Edition, which is $6,999, is treated with quark-gluon plasma for two weeks before it ships. Terms and Conditions apply. Terms and Conditions: No home trials. No refunds. Opening the Dark Energy Electron Regulator voids the warranty, and may result in the temporary reversal of space-time, leading to what we call the "Benjamin Button" effect. We strongly discourage customers from taking any such risk. If the D.E.E.R. is opened, it is likely to trigger an instantaneous antimatter collision, so that the box will appear empty. *Patent Pending. Well, Patent Applied For at least. Actually, they told me to stop writing the patent office, but I think they were joking. Accepting all forms of payment, provided it is mailed in cash to my P.O. box in Burkina Faso. Address available on request. Bryon Cunningham, PhD |
Hopefully, there are some who will dismiss the rhetoric and try different fuse and fuse direction. |
