fuse damage

Haven't seen one story here of a failed fuse toasting gear in the four and a half years I've been around.

raindog031:

I am glad you contacted the manufacturer and got their advice. Gryphon makes wonderful equipment. I am not aware of anyone having an audiophile fuse damage any equipment. In fact just the opposite has been reported- An audio grade fuse blowing in a circuit that on replacing the fuse the equipment worked normally. This seems to happen most often when changing out fuses in already warmed up equipment. I have had this happen when rapidly comparing two types of fuses in a warmed up CD player. I am not aware of an audio grade fuse failing to blow when it should.

I am a big believer in the sonic benefits of upgrading a stock fuse to an audio grade fuse. I have used Isoclean, Furotech, and Synergistic Research. I am the most happy with the Synergistic Research fuses. I find their sonic changes to be the best and they offer a 30 trial with full refund. 

I think it is an educational and worthwhile audio experiment.

David Pritchard

Roger Modjeski of Music Reference and RAM Labs received one of his excellent RM-9 Mk.II amplifiers for repair. The owner had installed in it eight Tuning Fuses, and they had failed to perform the main task of a fuse, resulting in damage to the amplifier. Roger inspected the fuse, and to his utter amazement discovered that it does not possess "high-breaking" construction, absolutely essential in a fuse installed in a power amplifier. In his contact with a Tuning Fuse principle, Roger became aware of the fact that the man was unfamiliar with the concept of the high-breaking characteristic of fuse design and construction. Read Roger's discussion of the fuses in the Audiocircle Music Reference Forum, in the "Tuning Fuses" thread, and install a Tuning Fuse in an amp at your own risk!  

Yes...not very encouraging to hear that...but thats the aspect i was interesed to...just from the technical point of view...every fuse will give this or that  sound signature (as any component change inside amp) but does every manufacturer do his job by the standard...according to bdp24 post obviously not...thanx you guys on your responses...im sure there will be more "victims"...actually "tuning fuses" where on my list to tryout so this info is very valuable to me and im sure to a lots of folks...i hope that Red Synergistic Fuse, Audio magic beeswax super fuse and Furutech fuse dont make trouble cuz there on my shortlist too...

That's actually second hand information.  The witness is not here to cross examine.

Geoffkait youre right that is second hand information (i asked for first hand) but dosent mean that is a lie...maybe someone from here knows someone who isnt on this forum but had a bad luck with that case...if someone is lowlife and lies about it...well shame on him and hope he gets debunked...but you got a point...it would be nice to share some evidence if possible...

I'm not accusing anyone of lying.  You cannot find out what really happened unless you do some digging.  It could be for example that the amp owner installed a wrong value fuse in one or more locations.  It wouldn't be the first time.  There is also the possibility that the manufacturer has it in for aftermarket fuses.  Difficult to say without actually well, being there. It's a lot of who shot John at this point.

150+ views and one claim (found on a different forum) that a fuse didn't do its job.  That pretty much says it all.

Use the right value its no problem. 

Not to beat a dead horse but HiFi Tuning has been around longer than dirt and as far as I know is the only aftermarket fuse manufacturer to have their fuses tested by a third party and actually publish those test results on their web site. The tests included HiFi Tuning fuses of various types, other manufactures’ fuses, measurements of fuses in both directions and measurements of fuses with and without cryogenic treatment.

I was using HiFi Tuning fuses when only game in town YEARS ago.  One time I ran into a bad batch of KT88's in my high powered tube amp, 8 KT88/6550 per mono, that lasted ~300 hours.   The stock and HiFi Tuning fuses exhibited the same behavior when a tube blows.   Fuse blows and sometimes take out bias resistors.   

I can understand companies warranty position on after market fuses, power cables ...  It's wide range of potential experimental products so they have to protect themselves.    HiFi Tuning, Synergistic ... have been around for a LONG time so would be out of business if their product is flawed.  Instead of a shrinking after fuse market, it's growing with new players.

Every time a fuse damage experience is requested, we get the same ONE 2nd hand story.   Google and other search engines are broken can't locate any 1st hand negative experiences ... should never host classified material in a San Jose bathroom.   IMO, it's a possible amp design flaw and designer blaming the fuses which would not surprise me.  It's your $$ so decide for yourself!

It doesn’t take much effort to find and read what Modjeski has to say about the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses he examined, and on the design and construction of fuses in general. And after having done so, one is free to dismiss or disregard Rogers findings and opinions. There is no design flaw in the Music Reference RM-9 MK.II amplifier that would result in it being damaged by insertion of the fuses; a Google search will prove that to any skeptics. Again, what harm can come from reading what a very knowledgeable and highly-regarded electronic circuit designer has to say on the subject? I realize Modjeski is not a 'high-end darling" designer (he does not "believe" in audiophile speaker wire), but ya'll do at least acknowledge he is an expert in his field, right? Just one more source from which to obtain information to consider, right? Unless one simply doesn’t want to hear anything that contradicts one's own opinion, or even the widely-held common wisdom, on the subject of "audiophile" fuses!

The following are Roger Modjeski quotes from that bastion of audiophile wisdom, Audio Circle.  

Roger Modjeski wrote,

"Perhaps you are recalling my post about burn-in where I questioned: If burn in is real, how come it wasn't discovered in the 1950s? I can only suggest that people weren't searching so hard to make something out of nothing. I recall Enid Lumely and her little tweaks, one of which was to put the cable against the wall and then put pine boards angled at 45 degrees to cover them. The good thing about people like that is they eventually go away. However if they start to make money from it, that takes longer."

"I am constantly amazed at the willingness of some to try a modification (tweak) that cannot possibly work. That is the whole point of this post. A fuse cannot be microphonic no more than pigs can fly."

"It is a thankless effort (perhaps a fools errand) to explain the science of things to un-scientific people. Yet these people should realize that the best products come from good science. I would not be able to design good sounding equipment using the pseudo science that is bandied about in the industry. Has anyone noticed that the makers of these modifications (previously called tweaks) for the most part make no real products. They do not know how to make an amplifier and many of them cannot even explain how one works yet they feel they can make it better with their "discovery"."

Having taught the scientific method at both the undergraduate and graduate levels, I don't know how "good" science might be defined. Using invalid measures or inappropriate analyses might be part of this. Usually, peer review is used to weed out poor methodologies.

But engineering is the use of science findings to make fullest use of those findings. But science often ignores many issues, such as magnetic wave generated by signals in those cables, or how vibrations interact with them to distort the true signals. I left EE because its myopic view. Physics was more open to discovery.

Geoff (and anyone else who feels Modjeski’s views on the topics Geoff quoted renders his opinion of the Hi-Fi Tuning Fuses questionable, if not downright invalid), allow me to suggest that even if Roger is "wrong" about any other topic (as I feel he is about acoustic room treatment, specifically bass traps), that does not necessarily mean he is wrong about the fuses. It’s easy enough to read what he has said about them, consider what he has said, and make of it what you will. I realize his opinion of some of the "sacred" audiophile beliefs calls into question amongst audiophiles his credibility---if he doesn’t hear evidence of burn in, for instance, how good can his designs sound? (very good; read Michael Fremer's review of the Music Reference RM-200). It reminds me of the reaction owners of the Audio Research SP-3 had to Frank Van Alstine---himself dismissive of "tweaks"---when he dared to find fault in that pre-amp and offer a mod to correct what he claimed were it’s design weaknesses. Bill Johnson was held in far higher esteem by 70’s audiophiles than was Frank. Yet Frank was proven to be correct, and his mod did indeed improve not only the bench test results of the SP-3 (it’s linearity, RIAA equalization accuracy, overload margins at low frequencies), but it’s sound as well. That’s right---a traditional conservative, non-audiophile approved electronic engineer improved on a design by the at-the-time undisputed king of audiophile designers. Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day ;-) !

More Roger Modjeski quotes on Audio Circle, from a thread on aftermarket fuses.

1. "Quote from: *Scotty* on 14 Jul 2014, 05:29 pm
Did you also test them for suitability as AC mains fuses or speaker fuses?
Scotty

I did not. I have done all I can to inform the public that they are not suitable for tube fuses and that their claims as to microphonics and improved electrical performance are specious. I have no interest to do further tests unless they want to engage my services as a consultant."

2. "There are very few instances when a fuse is right in the signal path. If people hear a difference there I am fine with it and it is explainable. The bulk of these fuses are used in power line and tube fuse applicators where I cannot imagine them making any difference. I would like to hear your thoughts on those applications."

3. "Most likely a design choice for short circuit protection because electronic protection (current limiting) is often a problem with difficult loads. As long as the output devices are protected from shorts I prefer a fuse to current limiting. If it has any effect it is far less than current limiting. It takes twice as many fuses to put them in the power rails outside the signal path, but that is a good place to put them.

The one place a fuse might be audible is in the speaker output. This is widely known and perhaps the reason that premium fuses got a foothold in other applications. It is typical of people with limited knowledge to paint something with a broad brush or generalize. In this case since a fuse in a speaker might be audible then fuses in all applications might be audible. With proper knowledge of the situation one can be more specific."

The Roger Modjeski quote in which he explains what he means by the term, High Breaking, which apparently is the issue he is all hung up on.  Now, please correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't his definition mean he has heartburn about ALL GLASS FUSES including stock fuses or ANY fuse that's not filled with sand?  HEL-loo!

"I have previously defined these terms, however I will again as those posts have been Quarantined. We currently have more posts in the hospital than any other forum.

You are correct, the fuse must not allow plasma to form. It is therefore filled with sand or some other material to fill the space when the fuse element vaporizes. It is not so much about voltage rating. I think 32 volt fuses are made differently from 125 volt fuses so as to have less loss at low voltages as they typically have elements that are wide at the ends and narrow in the center thus reducing resistance which is important in a low voltage circuit. Given that I feel 32 volt fuses would be a good choice for speaker fuses where high breaking is not an issue at all.

I get more questions about the voltage ratings on fuses than any other parameter. In actuality it is the least important parameter.

The responses from vendors and manufacturers have displayed no knowledge of these requirements at all. The respondents have missed the target entirely."

Rodger Modjeski only reccomends using a hardware store fuse in one special location- the tube protection circuit in one of HIS designed amplifiers. I can not find other reports of audio grade fuses failing to blow.

In fact there are multiple reports of using the correctly rated fuse and having it blow due to the circuit's normal energy use. So if anything the fuses are more protective than hardware store fusses. I have blown two audio fuses while fuse rolling in warmed up equipment and popping fuses in and out for quick comparisons. So do not do that!

I have three different audio systems to maintain. Three tube amps, three subwoofers, two solid state SACD players, one solid state DAC.

I have never had a component damaged by using an audio grade fuse.

I do hope everyone reading this forum will audition at least one audio grade fuse in their system. I found the sonic improvements to be significant in every system I own.

I especially like the Synergistic Research Black fuse for it's sonic qualities and the fact it comes with a 30 day money back policy. But the bottom line is the use of ordinary fuses are a major impediment to maximum music enjoyment!  Try an audio grade fuse. I think you will be glad you did.

David Pritchard

I think installing a single fuse in, say, a pre-amp, would be worth the $50 price, even if it were not returnable. Installing eight of them in a power amp running eight output power tubes, at a cost of $400 (!), maybe not! But if one can audition them with a money-back guarantee, why not? I would insure the tubes have no shorts before doing so, that's for sure!

a fuse that does its job can not make a system fail,. a fuses only purpose is to protect the unit.
Keep in mind that it is not only a matter of value but there are fast and slow type fuses, this is very important and should always be specified by the manufacturer

I have tons of experience with fuses a steel fuse has 7x more resistance then a Silver fuse ,a standard steel fuse can vary in  accuracy over 15% which is a lot .
A Hifi tunjng fuses for example is accurate within 1%. This is why many times 
A fuse would pop is exactly the same depending how close the MFG goes with a fuse. I usually go up slightly if possible if fuse blows with aftermarket fuse.

In no way will a Hifi tunjng fuses damage a Amplifier. Any proper built piece of electronics should have a minimum 20-25% over voltage protection built into it 
For protection. Gryphon is a veryoung good product. Go with the fuse the recommend sonicly after about 75 hours thd fuse will be runin inner detail as well as low level detail will be improved.