Thinking about addinfg a 2nd system next year, Trying to figure out best full range fora 845 amp i plan to purchase. Thoughts on , 1)SEAS Exotic/w xover. 2)Seas cheaper line of FR 3)Japenese Full Range offered on ebay., which are less than 1/2 the price of the Exotics, and are cool looking. I listen to classical /voice/chamber/orchestra. FR will be 8 inches, no ribbon, no tweeter.
I would look at the Mark Audio paper composite full range drivers (such as the Alpair 12P, which I think is their best driver). They are excellent, sound very natural and have a very flat response. The gold/grey metal Mark Audio are nice too, but tend to have a bright edge to the sound due to the breakup distortion of the metal cones.
I do not have direct experience with the Seas full range drivers, but they all tend to have upper frequency spikes and increases in sound that need to be addressed with crossover notch filters and such. Also, full range drivers that have the wizzer cone in the middle tend to have horn-type signature (can be slightly shouty and have a slight echo in the high frequencies). With a properly applied notch filter, these may be really nice. Seas makes excellent drivers and have strong magnetic motors, but I would probably not choose them because of the wizzer cone.
The Seas Exotic will play lower in the bass due to their lower free air resonance, but will have spiky and wacky response above 2KHz, like many other woofers do. The Seas Exotic will also take more power and have a larger maximum excursion.
The Mark Audio are very flat and can be implemented without any special crossover notch filters or anything (just connect wire directly between speaker and binding posts. It's extremely hard to design and make a full range driver that does everything right. It depends on what area is important to you.
This is the kind of testimony i am looking for, as i have no experience with FR, only know that FR's have *some issues*. No I really did not want a xover, and the Exotics are a bit out my price range at $700'ea USA dealer, but I can get them at $500/swedish dealer. I will now take a close look at the Mark Audio Fr you mention. The amp layout, late next yr, is taking most of this 2nd system budget. I already havea Jadis Defy 7 + about to add a cayin SC6 tube pre, and will upgrade my SEAS Thors with Mundorf silver oil along with 2 massive Gold Silver i bought off ebay,,madisound will build new xovers employing all new parts, so my 2020 budget is about blown on that project + I plan to upgrade caps in the cayin and jadis. ...in fact,,i may have to push the 845/FR dream 2nd system off to 2021. I'm in research mode right now. Thanks for this important testimoney to help in the decision. ...
I have no knowledge of the brands you mention, but do have first hand experience with another maker of full range speakers. You owe it to yourself to look at Omega Speaker Systems, designed and hand-built in Connecticut.
https://omegaloudspeakers.com/
Omega has a full range of monitors and floor standers. I have been a very satisfied 4+ year owner of a pair of their Super Alnico Monitors which employ a 6-inch full range driver. I also listen to classical chamber/voice/ and orchestra, and can only say these speakers are amazing.
It's the first in a series of videos where Mark Fenlon (MarkAudio) talks about the design of his full range drivers. There are 6 parts (6 videos) total in this lecture.
~~~~I;m back~~~ In 5 minutes~~~, Not sure how i missed these Mark Audio on madisound, as i looked over nearly everything FR on Madisound,,,,carefully,,,or was it a case of tunnel vision, as i am a huge fan of SEAS only, and could not consider anything other than. The Mark Audio Alpair 12P8 is really interesting, and this will be my choice, and the clincher here is, well affordable, making ~~The 2nd Dream System~~~ a closer reality.
As soon as i dump my cayin MT and chinese pre, both at a 50%+ loss, i will regroup and get the Mark Audio 8 inch,,,play around with that on my jadis Defy. I see the MA is rated 90 db,,not too efficient fora FR. But if as you say,,all the funny things with whizzers and break up is not there with the MA, this will mean no xover, just straight muisc. I mean, we have cd players/pre/amps,,,then xover in a FR??? The FQ;'s are being pulverized to a mush. I may end of liking the FR over the SEAS Thors...will bea good shootout. Thanks for your suggestion, would have certainly overlooked this fantastic looking Mark Audio 8. No I do not plan to push the vol of the Defy, nor do i listen to harsh rock. This will get very interesting,,hopefully YT has some vids on this MA 8. Thanks paul
Mark Fenlon is british, I really hate all american and bristih products,,across the board,,,cdp's, amps, speakers,,, In this YT vid, when asked which lab he most respects,,stubbornly he comes out with another brit lab,,wharfdale,,i hate that speaker,,, sorry, but I am SEAS die hard, The Danes are the kings in speakers, and i'm going back to my original idea, staying with SEAS..Now i will admit, the whizzer has to g,,,, need to ck which FR/no whizzer avalibale in SEAS and also the japenese offerings on ebay. again appreciate your imput as it helps me to xout some, and focus on others. My plan is to hit a grand slam on 1st purchase.
I wouldn’t take his opinion of Wharfedale as an indicator of what his products are like. In the full range arena, he does an excellent job. And he also just states opinions on what he "knows". He may not have access to or know the labs from vendors such as Focal, B&W, Wilson, etc.
There are a multitude of youtube videos with Mark Audio speakers. However, there’s only one with the 12P and it uses a very mild recording from a turntable. Not really the best to showcase this speaker.
I used the 12P and made a center channel speaker. Being a full range paper cone, it was slightly soft in the very high frequencies. Using Cardas rhodium binding posts and Furutech rhodium disconnect clips helped tremendously with the high frequency extension (also removing those connection extenders on the MarkAudio speaker). The result is a very excellent, accurate and revealing speaker. I also recommend using a solid-core type of speaker cable for internal, such as Audioquest Rocket 44/88.
I did go on to engineer and build a replacement set of speakers because the Mark Audio was slightly soft in the highs (this was before I switched to rhodium binding/clips -- I originally had gold-plated connectors and binding posts). I used a variation of the Seas Thor speaker. Used 7" Seas Excel magnesium cone woofers and the Seas soft dome tweeter. It did do very well in the high frequencies, but the magnesium drivers have a bright breakup at around 5khz that needs to be handled with a notch filter.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a huge Seas fan. They make excellent drivers. However, I have heard a lot of full range drivers and wizzer cones. While some may like them and they do full range well, the wizzer cones all come with compromises and problems. Additionally, a woofer designed to play well down low will always have problems in the upper frequencies (such as above 2khz). Look at any Scanspeak woofer and you will see a really bad response above 1-2khz. However, they are awsome between 50 and 900 hz.
In the end, I would rather listen to the Mark Audio 12P instead of a higher priced over engineered driver such as the Seas. I think the Mark Audio is just going to sound more natural and "real" than the breakup and wizzer cones of the Seas.
FEASTREX FR bid on ebay, best sounding speaker inm the world, bar none. Open bid $7K. well worth it. Ck out the YT vid on the sound of that FR. super unreal, just how i like it, super crystal clear, tons of timber and glistenings on the top, mids bright and lively.
Yes, well i can get the Exotic 8 froma swedish dealer for $500. madisound wants $800. ,,,anyway,,i figured out my speaker for System Two. Guy on ebay sells a clone of the scan speak neo Illuminato tweet, Best tweet in the world, Neo magnet makes speakers sing like no othermagnet, ck out the YT video on neo magnets' strength to draw power away from amp to the driver, Truly a revelation. If it does not havea neo mag, i am not interested,,,well although my SEAS Thor has been champs for these past 18 yrs, Richard Grew down here in New Orleans soldiered the xover wires back in 2002,,,,time to move on. No I've not herad the scan Illuminator's vs the Excel Millenium's, which have been champs in all tweets past 15+ yrs,,seems this Scan Neo tweet, Illuminator will most certainly give SEAS a run for its FQ's...My hunch is Scan speak will shoot out the SEAS at 1st pop. Now for the lower FQ's, Going witha japenese FR, 6.5, same seller that offers the SCan speak clone. Has a whizzer,,,I don't like the FR w/o the whizzzer,, and the FR 6.5 is the limit,,the 5 is the IDEAL size/, but the 6,5 has the neo magnet. I need a xover for this pairing. anyone know who makes xover designs? Other than madisound, as i am not purchasing the drivers from them. Only the xover parts. The Scan tweet is the Beryllium BE which i am refering to. has the neo.
I will need a xover design service for this pairing. Something very simple,,,madisounds' xover for the Illuminator kit looks to me wayyyyyy over done. For a 2 way, thats alottttt of parts. More parts = more interference with the driver's intentional voicing.
Check out Schmidtlambrixaudio.com Awesome use of Alpair 12p with absolutely transparent sound with gorgeous cabinet finishes. I demoed these and hated to leave them!
Yes the ebay seller is Davidlouis, , He has some very nice drivers, I was going to go with this as a 2nd system from his site 6.5 FR NEO magnet at $279.88/pair + Beryllium BE Neo Flagship tweet @ $215.88/pr.
But after researching all night, since last post,,,YT vids by the dozens, going betwix SEAS site, Madisounds site, YT and thinkin,,thinkin,,,figureing out,,,hummm, heard some Scan Spaeks, of course not their Illuminato tweet,,just their Illuminato Mid bas,,,got to thinkin...honestly, I've always been a SEAS fan-atic and most likely will be to the end. Don't get me wrong, Scan are world class drivers, But then,,,so is SEAS. So back to SEAS it is,,,now here's one no one brought up,,,, ~~~Coaxil~~~~ Yep, The old car speaker we all remember from the 70's...well i see SEAS offesr a home model ~~C18EN002/A. its a 2nd gen speaker, There is no midbas, its classed by SEAS a low midrange/indepentent tweet,,, here's the clinger...has my Neo magnet. Besides its really cool looking... ~~~ so tahts seals the deal. Going with the SEAS Coaxil C18EN002/a. Now i havea Cayin pre on Santa's wish list,,well actually , it'll come early 2020...has 2 pre outs,,so i can have the Jadis defy to the C18EN Coaxil and the other pre out to the dayton sub amp/Cerwin Vega 10 inch picked up off ebay cheap/single/sub cabinet all 3 like under $200!!!!!, so finally i will have some low fq's comming in, with my classical orch muisc, finally!!!!. OK, so the Coaxil's carry the 200-20K fq's, the Cerwin Vega the 20hz-300 hz. Sound like a winning game plan?, I think the coaxil eliminates all the issues/hangups one encounters with the so called *full range*. The lower fq's tend to break up the cone resonances and drowns out the low mids,,muffling, jumbling, mixing, mashing, pulverizing all the fq's up in one big south louisiana gumbo. So now we have ~~~Speaker system Two~~~ figured out,,,opening the door for a 845 amp i am looking at,,,late 2020...back to ~~~Speaker One Sytem~~~ The 18 yr old thors,,can't forget those gems... OK, Madisound rebuilds the xovers,,,I will send thema pair of Mundorf Gold Silver 10 uf caps i snaged off Ebay,,, they are GIGANTIC,,and super heavy, really surprised me,,the other caps in the xover will employ Silver Oil, abd mundorksm R Resist resitors. , Low bass driver in this MTM design gets Mundorfs cheaper line the Supreme,,,low bass needs no pizzaz of silver in the caps. Plus, lets get rid of the low bass W18 and add the newest of the Excel, The Graphene 8 inch, the W19,,,hummm, not sure as they go for $500 a pop
OK, SEAS offers a speaker kit, for the coaxil/paired witha 12 inch aluminum sub...which i do not need, however on the page you can see the xover needed to make the coaxil work. has 3 caps, C1 3.9 C2 12.8 C3 6.8 cking Madisounds prices on Mundorf Silver Oil 10uf $139 ea + 2 uf @ $49/ea + 3.3 uf @ $39/ea + 8.2uf @ $119?ea,, ,,so where are we at on the budget,,,hummm, 140+50+40+120 =,,,,^^lets see,,,thats 200,,,90...60...call it $400 ea as we will need coils/resistors etc etc ,,,ETC!!!!!, so,
~~~so $500/ea coaxil + $400/ea xover = $900,,,i like to round out my numbers in thsi hobby,,,= $1K/ea,,not including cabinets,,which is quite easy, /cheap, get any old cab at the thrift store, pop in the coaxil..waaaalaaaaa. X's 2 = $2K. ...hummmmm, maybe we should all rethink this design/idea. My budget was no more than $1K. ....has to be Seas, i am not going for those super nice looking japenese *full* range. I need a SEAS design that superior's the Thors, MTM.
Now lets add a tweeter, I am going to stay with the Millenium,,,no we already have that tweet in the Thors,,,hummm, OK, lets utilize SEAS latest creation. the Beryllium/Neo magnet tweet.
T29 OK someone add up what we have so far W19Graphene + T29 beryllium/Neo magnet. ,,,my guess is we are at near $1K,,and we ain't even got to the xover....,,,hummmm, tell you what, lets put this ~~~Dream~~~ 2nd Speaker System~~~ on the Santa's wish list for late 2020. What I need you guys to do is watch for any used W19Grap/T35Beryllium units to pop up on ebay, used/cheap, make the offer, buy it, i'll give you a finders fee. I'll talk with Madisound's designers and find out what we will need in the xover. SEAS has a gold mine of opportunity, but they just sit there and test drivers all day..,,,they should stop testing and start connecting the drivers in a kit. .I mean, a W19 graphene married to a Beryllium T35, no speaker could touch the sound. Heck, that combo could draw so fast at the shootout, like GunSmoke, knock 10 speakers off even before they get a few FQ's out the box. Surely gonna put my Thors out. been researching all day since 6 am,,,finally, 12+ hours later,,,we got the design. Thoughts/opinions welcome~~~~
@audioabyss - I checked out the Schmidt Lambrix website. I would agree that those speakers would be excellent sounding, since I know what the 12P sounds like, but I think they are charging way too much. $4500 for a pair of speakers with $160 drivers and a 8" woofer where the drivers aren't even flush mounted?!?!? I mean, come on! I flush mounted my 12P when I built my center channel using double-thickness plywood (1.25" for the front baffle). Yeah, don't get on me for using plywood. It was high grade plywood and I don't like using MDF because of the pain of veneering.
I've heard quite a few full range drivers used both in single driver systems and use as a wide range driver in multi-driver systems. Used as single driver, most systems do not deliver enough low and mid-bass for the sound to be full and rich enough to satisfy my taste for all sorts of music (orchestral and choral classical, in particular, do not sound that good). As a second system, however, where less favored music can be played on another system, I can see going with a single driver, full range system. The exception to this general observation, are single driver full range systems which are used in quarter wave back-loaded horn enclosures. I've heard some decent implementations of that, particularly the Charney Audio system and I am completely satisfied with the bass from their systems.
Full range drivers used in two-way systems are a different matter. They retain most of the purity of single driver systems because the crossover point can be placed well out of the sensitive midrange and the crossover can be a simple, purer sounding affair (e.g., 6 db/octave 1st order). I like quite a few full-range drivers used that way.
The full-range drivers I've heard include several Feastrix drivers, the best being a field-coil driver a friend uses in an Onken cabinet. It did not deliver much bass, but it was quite decent sounding. I wish I could hear it in a back-loaded horn configuration.
I really like the AER 8" drivers--very detailed and clear without being as peaky sounding or harsh like Lowther drivers can sound. I like the Voxactiv drivers I heard, but, not as much as the AER bd2, or bd3, or bd4 drivers.
GIP Laboratories makes full range replicas of Western Electric drivers. I like the 12" field coil version I heard, but, I much preferred its sound when it was coupled with a tweeter.
I really like the 13.5" field coil Jensen/ERPI M10 driver. I've heard these employed in open baffle (actually a full cabinet with an open back) with a tweeter crossed in around 10k, and the sound is magnificent. This is an early 1930 design, so it sort of shows that not much has improved over the years. It has become quite pricey because its sound quality is not a secret.
I love full range drivers and have at least a half a dozen in my house at any given time. I had some markaudio designs over the years including the Alpair 10p which are nice but my favorites by far are the Omegas. Just remember the cabinet design is very important as well. Both the driver and cabinet are important to the overall sound.
With the 300b tube, I would plan on adding a powered subwoofer (now or perhaps in the future after listening a while in the space).
So, if full range, or any other speaker design, low bass is less important than you would think. The space often reinforces low bass, beyond printed specs.
I would still go for efficient speakers with low to mid power tubes.
@ Elliott Yes I was aware the 300B has its limitations on low , deep bass, , at least on most speakers,,,92db+ is my guess best for 300B tube. I am thinking to add a 845/300B amp, Either the Line magentic 517, big brother to the 217 @$2K or the Cayin 845/300b @ $3K. I am hoping either will drive the highly INEFFICIENT Thors rated 87 bd. I would hate to adda 845 and the sound is anemic/dull/flat in full orchestra, As that amp can not be shipped back to china fora refund = both weigh in at over 60 lbs. and I would hate to attempt to sell the amp on ebay ata 30%+ reduction. Shipping, as you know has gone wayyy up with FEDEX.~~~ 70 lbs = $275 ship. I've never heard livea 845, only via YT. Most of the 845 vids on Yt have horrible sounding speakers,,,speaking of which,,,have you guys seen the JADIS room YT upload ata LV show??? Jadis has the worst sounding speakers IN THE WHOLE WORLD. Also there is a YT upload with the Jadis 200 monos, + Jadis' 4 chassis pre,,,what a most horrific/disgusting sound,,,not sure if it is the speakers or the jadis. Calss F sound. No wait its the Jadis 500 monos, each weighing in at over 120 lbs each (a bit exxagerated , but only bya few ozs = yeah i am bashing jadis, although i do know they make the worlds best sounding intergrateds, yet very expensive)
Look I am trying to take all newbiews and the old timers, up to CLASS A. have you ever heard of
~~~~DISCRETE OPAMPS~~~~ No? Well neither have thousands of others..I JUST TODAY made the discovery, You need to go count all the 2 cent opamps in your CD player, takea pic, with #'s to ~~~SPARKOLABS~~~~ He will match it up to his inventory,,either singles or better duals. I have just order 6 singles for my state of the art ~~~CLASS A~~~~ Cayin 17, made 2003...Mark 1,,,the new Cayin 17 Mark 2 is out, sells for just a few bucks over what I paid. Built like all Cayin, has dual top line of the line trans. Weighs a hefty 20+ lbs. = a beast. With new opamps, + new Mundorf;'s = class a
I have had some experience with FR designs, and many have a lot to offer. Most however have a shout in the midrange at about 1K that I cannot listen to! Round and round I went to find a driver that satisfied my preferences. The Mark Audio came very close with the 10P model, but I wanted more bass. This driver was used in a small back loaded horn design. I want to build another in the future but with the 12P driver instead, and in a larger cabinet. Audio Nirvana drivers (the classic series, w/o whizzer cones and alnico magnets) have a good overall sound including bass, but are slightly recessed in the upper midrange. I have also tried an interesting design by Deware audio that uses a unique open baffle design with a Hemholtz resonator for the lower cabinet. Truly, the choice of drivers matter here. The FRX2 drivers sold by Decware are great sounding, BUT just know that they are voiced for tube application. Their prices may stop you in your tracks at 600 ea. too. These drivers are quite unique themselves by using a special transformer to deal with the shout issue, and to tame some of the phase response anomalies of this driver.
If it’s not too late. I’m a Mark Audio FR fan. In fact, I’ve not built with much else. I made some monitors using a vented box and some 7MS (metal cone) drivers. These are used every day in my son’s studio - but they do need a sub really. Then I built Woden Design’s Avebury using Mark Audio 12ps. These sound fabulous to me. Truly full range, wonderful easy room-filling sound yet great precision too. So easy to set up. In my room I need to control some of the bass using Roon’s DSP. Next project is a 2x9 driver line array... The great thing about self build using FR drivers is the simplicity and the resulting sound value for money.
I came across a pair of Audio Nirvana Super 8" with the alnico magnet. I run them in free air with a sub around 80. Amp is a Moon i3. I'm no expert, but I will say, for me, it's the best combination I've experienced thus far. The free air setup goes against a lot of different beliefs about cabinets, OB and such, and I had no idea how it would turn out. Personally, I'm beyond pleased. I listen to mostly jazz and small ensembles, and it's magic. God I love this hobby:-)
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