@sampsa55 , Thanks for enriching my tonearm collection with FR-64 fx. I own both 64 S kinds in the sense of silver and copper wire. I also own Ikeda 345 . Alas not FR64 fx. But I need to start with my Sumiko 800 (''the arm''). The arm is designed by physicist David Fletcher and (hand) made by his master machinist Demian Davidson from 160 parts. The curious things are: The arm looks like a Breuer twin but while Breuer refused to make any additional counterweight for his customers Fletcher designed 6 different counterweights for his Sumiko. The reason being to provide the right weight for the carts from 6- till 25 g. This way each individual cart could be adjusted such that the counterweight would be as near as possible to the pivot. This seems to be relevant for both: arm mass as well for the inertia. Lew is very fond about Newton while ''mechanics'' is the best established physical science. As lawyer I need to pretend to know everything otherwise nobody would be willing to hire me. In this forum and ''among friends'' I don't need to pretend. So I hope ''our Lew'' will explain ''the mechanics''. This would be more in accordance with his eloquence then his modest contribution about silver oxide versus copper kind (grin). |
just a note...I paid $150 probably 25-30 years ago |
@invictus005 IMO, silver is actually better when it comes to tonearm wire because of the low fragile cartridge signal. Good copper has lower resistance than silver: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/cg1003808 Anyone paying $1000-$2000 for an FR64 variant, should really stop and think about what they're doing. For that price one can get a brand new SME 309 or a used SME V. I'm not making a claim about the relative quality of the tonearms in question, but neither of those SME models would actually be able to use the FR7 or SPU cartridges that for instance @nandric is intending to use with his FR64fx. |
IMO, silver is actually better when it comes to tonearm wire because of the low fragile cartridge signal. Tonearms with silver wire sound significantly more alive, dynamic, and louder, but without sounding bright. My favorite wire to use is actually van den Hul MCS150M. Great stuff.
Anyone paying $1000-$2000 for an FR64 variant, should really stop and think about what they're doing. For that price one can get a brand new SME 309 or a used SME V.
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As indicated by others, $150 for FR64fx is a steal. For these older tonearms and other older products, silver is probably better. For current products, I products I prefer high-quality copper. @mulveling I currently have a Graham Phantom Supreme 10" ($6.7K new) and Clearaudio Universal 12" ($6.5K new) mounted; I expect this FR64fx should easily compete with (if not beat) them. I really like my FR64fx, but is it really comparable to >$6.5k tonearms? I'm interested in your findings. |
@nandric (Slightly off topic) One should use the weight which can be moved nearest to the pivot. The least inertia is the result.
Is this actually true? As long as what you're balancing doesn't change (i.e., the cartridge & headshell stay the same), doesn't the force on the counterweight side also have to stay the same? So if you use a heavier weight and get it closer, the end result is the same as using a lighter weight further out. In other words, inertia is the product of distance & mass, but you're changing both in order to balance the same thing on the other side. |
yeah...luck o' the Welsh.
...mulveling,I saw a post of yours on audio karma circa 2011
regarding this arm..you're getting around.
I must say,I'm always impressed with the level of knowledge
on Agon,as well as other sites. For people of lesser smarts
like me this knowledge is so useful even if much of it eventually
trickles out the other ear. I did get a 96 on my social studies
Regents though .
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@offnon57
I bought the Pink Triangle for $150 locally in Hicksville LI back in the days when you could find stuff in Newsday classifieds almost everyday.
The guy I bought it from kept his arm but hooked
me up to another guy for the Fidelity Research, for another $150
Amazing, nowadays they are up to 2k on ebay |
Magnesium is the best. SME is the best. That's pretty much that. |
If anyone missed Fremer’s SME tour: https://youtu.be/usXKl8p6kukFast forward to 31:23 to watch Brian Laker (service manager) talking about new and very old SME models. They use magnesium for arm wands on the top models. |
@chakster , Your Lustre 801 has only the (thin) armwand made from steel. The same apply for the SME ''R'' kinds. The effective mass by FR-66/64 S depends from the used headshell and counterweight. I never used any of the FR headshells because I consider them all as worthless. For the FR 66/64 series 3 different counterweights are made: standard, 170 g and 250 g. One should use the weight which can be moved nearest to the pivot. The least inertia is the result. The worst headshell is S3 ( 19,5 g). The other are to short for the usual headshell wire length. So the effective length is not easy to adjust (stylus ''distance'' to the pivot). I prefer headshells made from magnesium with ''movable 4 pin connector''. This kind make azimuth adjustment possible as well the added space for the stylus adjustment. |
@offnon57
Well at $150 on the 64fx, you got an absolute steal. That arm should go for $1K+, easy, if in good/clean condition with original counterweight and silver internal wiring. More if you have the original head-shell. Plus for most low-ish compliance MC cartridges, it’s hard to imagine any $1K used arm options, and new arms sub-$5K (!), matching that FR64fx in performance and build quality.
I need to get a Clearaudio arm board cut so I can use mine again, especially since I have an extra Koetsu to pull out. It was a joy to use; silky smooth action. I currently have a Graham Phantom Supreme 10" ($6.7K new) and Clearaudio Universal 12" ($6.5K new) mounted; I expect this FR64fx should easily compete with (if not beat) them. |
Why are you guys guys interested in these super high mass tonearms? Synergy with vintage carts (as mentioned), and of course heavier modern carts (Sensitive Sound for example at 20-23 grams). Not to say heavy = good by any means, but it happens to work well in some cases. |
I posted because I have the 64x, mounted on original Pink Triangle.
But they both sit languishing on sidelines for several years and
I'm contemplating to keep or sell. I miss playing records but am
happy to spin cds for now and not sure if I'll ever get off my ass
and dust off the Pink and all my records .
chakster...it's definitely the 64x,black, and marked "silver inside
leads " on the barrel. I bought the Pink Triangle for $150 locally in Hicksville LI back in the days when you could find stuff in Newsday classifieds almost everyday.
The guy I bought it from kept his arm but hooked
me up to another guy for the Fidelity Research, for another $150
I think,and Grado cart. for $100. Not that I know a whole lot more
now,but I didn't really know a thing then, but got lucky with everything
I bought ,all used. I had bought a pair of Quad 57s(also via Newsday) from a guy
in East Meadow who turns out to be Mr.Tennis here on Agon,Roy
Harris,who also wrote for Audiophilia ,and used to occasionally
write letters to The Absolute Sound ,strongly opinionated letters
that made an impression on me as a newbie. Anyway,I digress.
The insertion of the Pink Triangle w/ FR arm made a big splash
and set me up for great music on the Quads. Long story later, Quads
long gone and belt not holding on to turntable,I dropped out for
awhile until getting started with cds. And that's where I'm at now.
I think if I could wake up tomorrow and my turntable would be all
set up like a good dream I'd be playing those lps again, so maybe
this dialog will inspire me . Glad to hear your responses..... |
@invictus005
Why are you guys guys interested in these super high mass tonearms?
For low compliance cartridges mainly, in my case it's FR-7f and SPU Royal G MKII. But the 64FX is not so heavy as the 64s, but still on the heavy side.
Technics EPA-100mk2 Boron/Titanium is the one for my high compliance cartridges. |
Stainless steel is very heavy. Magnesium, Titanium, aluminum are all much better.
Why are you guys guys interested in these super high mass tonearms? |
@nandric what is the benefits of stainless steel ?
I use inexpensive stainless steel PANs when i'm cooking on gas and i love it, but why it's better for tonearms? Just more weight?
My Lustre GST-801 also made of stainless steel, i believe. It was easy to rewire it with brand new discovery toneam copper wires (the original silver wire was broken and does not impressed me much, too old).
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nandric with SME 3009 and 3012. The first version was produced from steel the later from aluminum.
Quite true and perhaps the reason for the fondness of the early model. I think the later R series revised the steel tube material as an homage to the original? |
And copper oxide is a poor conductor. Whereas silver oxide conducts about as well as pure silver. |
The FR 66/64 S (''S'' for steel) were produced from hardened steel and become to expensive to produce. That is why Ikeda decided to produce FR 66/64 FX made from aluminum which is more easy and much cheaper to produce. Curious but true the same happened with SME 3009 and 3012. The first version was produced from steel the later from aluminum. Copper or silver question need to be put in the context of time. As function of time copper corrode so after all those years (80is)one need to check copper wire version. My FR low impedance SUT output wire was black from corrosion. |
@offnon57
Fidelity Research FR-64x.....(with silver wire )
Do you mean FR-64s ? But the "s" is not necessary silver wire, it can be copper wire. When the wire is silver there is a sticker on the art "silver wire inside" or something like that. I bought FR-64fx toneam (the black one) with heavy counterweight W-205. We will see how it works with my FR-7f cartridge. I'm gonna try my FR PMC-3 cartridge as well, but maybe i will need a lighter counterweight which i don't have (looking for one). I'm not a fan of the silver wire, in my opinion copper wire is always better. |
This is a terrific pickup arm - I used for one years on an Oracle and it sounded wonderful. When I upgraded to an SME V, I sold the Oracle and FR to a friend, who uses it still. And it still sounds great. Please note that one of the self-appointed turntable gurus here has an extreme distaste for the FR, to which of course he’s entitled. But it’s really just a prejudice on his part. I’ve heard the FR arm sound fine in a number of different systems.
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Yes indeed! I am a fan of FR arms and cartridges. Have owned several FR1 mk3F's and a MC201. Presently have two of the older arms: FR28 and FR54. All high-quality products! |
Yes, very good arm, especially with the silver wire. Top notch build quality; still makes most of today’s arms look & feel like toys (compare to a VPI arm, lol). I have the non-silver version and it sounded excellent with Koetsu cartridges and the Ortofon Kontrapunkt "c" (older version of Cadenza Bronze). It also did very good with medium-compliance models like Benz Glider/Wood/Ref and Ortofon Windfeld/Jubilee, but it seemed to gel best those lower compliance carts. |
