Which do you prefer; S.E.T. Princess 300B Carbon Plate or KR 300B WE Clone?
I've only experienced NOS 40's/50's WE so my expectations are pretty high. Which do you think captures the essence of the WE most closely? I'm trying to keep the cost down as much as possible so EAT is not an option, as much as I was blown away by their KT88. I considered current WE but they're not in production until Spring 2011.
Tvad: Seriously. Enough already. It's relative. You don't know me or my situation. Take your righteous crusade somewhere else. And please get your facts straight; they were $450, not $525. I tried to find used ones.
Well Sakahara, you impress me as being a very astute listener with a keen sense of value. So I followed your lead and purchased the same Sophia tubes. That means that if I don't like them, it's your fault. :-)
In Seriousness, being the clod that I sometimes am, I just kicked and broke one of my 300b tubes which necessitated a spontaneous decision. You know, this might sound strange but I'm actually happy it happened, otherwise I would have been torturing myself for months longer. Luck to both of us.
Gsm18439: RAM Labs and Tube Audio Store are one in the same. There are only two EML US dealers I am aware of.
Phaelon: I think you'll be satisfied. I'm confident I will based on my dealers insight. I used Sophia 274B in the past and they were very impressive, even against some revered 40's/50's NOS 5U4G's.
I'm sure the EML, KR, and EAT have something to offer as well. I read some very positive comments in the past about the EAT 300B. Just beware of tube specs/amp compatibility.
Update: It's still early to judge, but I like what I'm hearing. I thought I would. Only one problem; there was a noise issue with one tube so Sophia generously replaced with a free upgrade to the ceramic base. And unfortunately to my astonishment that pair seems to have an issue also (one channel is louder then the other, or possibly the other is lower in volume). All I know is that the loudness is unbalanced between L&R channels and it follows the tube when switching between monoblocks. Sophia wants me to give it 100 hrs and hear if it changes. Otherwise, replacement #2.
I ordered a matched quad. Setting the bias of my amplifier to its minimum setting, I still can't achieve the amplifier's recommended bias. Sophia said they are willing to test for lower emission tubes to meet my amps specs, but that these tubes will actually be more satisfying. I'm trying to do a little research that will aid in my decision.
My amps have no manual bias control. Did you order the Black or Ceramic base?
I want to add that Sue at Sophia has been most gracious and accommodating. If this were KR or another I think the situation would be quite the opposite. ;-)
I wouldn't judge KR bad so fast, unless you have had that experience already...
May I ask you which Sophia's did you buy? Thing is, at least with TJ's, where Sophia's are coming from, that the less expensive pairs aren't that good with keeping the bias and that's very well known problem with them, however Sophia's suppose to have much better quality control. I owned ceramic based Mesh plated, but the most expensive from their line with 1 year warranty and never had any issue with bias or unbalanced L&R. I sold them and probably will never buy again, KR and AVVT's are my reference now. My next pair, probably, will be KR Balloon 300B, which seems to be better than reissue WE's and they are USD 525 a pair with 2 years of warranty http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductDetail.aspx?CatID=13&ProductID=3
Dont get me wrong guys, but most Chinese tubes are trash and the very small production line, which are also very expensive, are one to get, but than again, even Sophia's so called Mesh aren't really Mesh at all. I say, buy tubes from manufactures who developing and producing good quality tubes, support them instead of some who don't develop a single thing and just re-brand and re-sell.
Maxmad, You raise an interesting point, there`s a big difference in quaility (sonically and built) between the lower/mid price chinese 300b and the premium models. This is why earlier in this threat I`d strongly recommended the Shuguang Treasure Series or the TJ Full Music SE 300b. Yes they`re more expensive but are far better sounding and also extremely reliable. The KR tubes sound very good, but for a number of audiogon users(read previous threads on this topic) have been unreliable. My amp`s(Coincident) builder Israel Blume stopped using these tubes(he liked the sound)due to poor support by the company for replacing bad tubes, I hope your experience is different. Audiogon member Montejay formerly used both the TJ carbon plate(Sophia) and the KR balloon 300b and reported the Shugaung Treasure tube was an upgrade YMMV.
Thanks for your replay, no argue here, cos I know about KR issues in that regard, but also you have to be sure which tubes you are putting in your equipment, cos they may not sound that good as you may expect. Result of this is the necessary tube rolling, which means spending money, lots of it. When I bought my Cary CAD 300SEI it came with full house of Sophia's and I was really pleased until I tried KR's, AVVT's, but more important differ driver and input tubes, cos Cary benefits a lot from them, some say even more than 300B rolling, but I believe in a good total match instead. Now I use full house of ECC33 Mullards, which to me are everything you may need from tubes. But than again, depends on speakers or else you are using... Thats why research and lots of reading, before actually purchase, making more sense up here. Chinese, in general, trying to produce that sound clone of WE's in many differ ways, while for example Svetlana from Sensor in St.Petersburg like 80% of the WE sound sig, but for like USD 260 - 320 a pair, which is known for a very long time. They did have some quality issues in the past, but seems that now its all over. They are also on my list, but first I want KR Balloon's.
About the service of KR's. TJ's US dealer stopped importing their top notch carbon, cos of the same problems, to many broken tubes and to many issues with replacement, so, its not just KR.
Hello, Maxmad, Srajan Ebaen(6 Moons.com) during his reviews of 300b tubes was surprised to discover that in the amps he used the driver tube changed the sound character more than swapping the various output tubes. Grant Audio is the North American distributor for TJ Full Music, I was`nt aware they`re having any problems with the higher end SE 300b tubes.
Sakahara, I ordered the ceramic base version. I also found Sue very pleasant.
Charles1dad, I wish there was a way that I could have auditioned the Treasures to hear for myself, but as I stated on another thread, a manufacturer, who has an extensive history of using 300bs in his push-pull amps, told me that the Treasures were disappointing when used with his PP circuitry.
Well, there was nothing wrong with quality, but there were just to many that came broken, at least thats what Grant Audio stated on their website. You know, I am in the tube hobby for some time now and strange thing about the tubes is, if you pack them well, they just dont broke, but if they are bad, they just bad:-)
Anyway, here is some nice article about Svetlana's http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1199/sv300b.htm
I don't have experience with KR 300B but I think there's enough customer complaints to support my little jab at them. I'm sure it's a good tube and I might even try it sometime given the experience so far with Sophia (I thought they made their own, or at least separate production at a factory). Maybe I should have bought KR, or EML as I'd originally planned, but the Sophia was based on my amps dealers personal experience with both EML and Sophia. He didn't care for Sophia years back but found the latter production to sound better then EML. The amp designer hates Chinese tubes, only recommending NOS WE, otherwise EML is used/supplied. Most customers buy NOS WE. I feel the same way with current Chinese tubes, also Russian made. But I have no other choice if I can't afford NOS WE. I seriously regret selling them. Now I'm considering returning the Sophia because of the issues and trying EML or KR. Maybe I should have just got the Shuguang Treasures. There's no way to know for certain what will work or be reliable until you try one no matter how many opinions are offered.
Thanks for your replay. I am very sorry to hear that you having this issue and believe me, not trying to convince you to do anything, all I wrote is my opinion only. On the other hand, its very good/cool that you share your situation, cos folks should know about this, imo. I would say, take your money, never look back. Even I never have had any issues with Sophias Princess Mesh 300B/N with white ceramic base, which are top of their list and sells for USD450 with 1 year warranty, still think we dont have to support their kindness, no, we have to suport the quality of the product in the first place. If nobody buys their cheaper lines, it will disapear. Well, just forget it, dont want to people think I am Chinese hater or something. If you are looking for WE sound sig I would go for Svetlana's, but than again, personaly I never tried any, so, thats where we have to believe this enjoythemusic guy. But the most important thing, buy from the trusty source where you can get your full deposit back if you will have some issues with them. This enjoythemusic guy also tested top TJ Carbon's that been mentioned already, but they were like USD 695 a pair and sounded better than WE's, but later same guy tested these KR Balloon's and ended up with them, where TJ's took 2nd place and WE's 3rd. Why I stil telling you this? Simply because you seems to want WE's really badly, but you wouldnt find any of WE's sound in general line of KR, EML or Treasure, cos all of them having so called modern kind of sound and thats true. Personaly, I found a lot similarities between KR and AVVT's I own, but thats not that strange, cos KR and AVVT guy were working together in the beginning and AVVT guy left KR and started his own company AVVT. He also have had some issues, but after 1999 its been over, so, anything before that will be to risky. Same goes to KR's, where they also have had some problems, but this particular Balloon pair comes with 2 years of warranty, which to me is a lot. Of course you should ask them about their warranty policy first, so you know before you buy. At the end, if you cant go for more expensiver lines of any been mentioned, Svetlana's, which are still in production, will be your only choice here or check the used market for other mentioned brands, however I wouldnt do that either, to much risk, imo. By the way, WE supose to restart their production around May of this year, but than again, this is not sure yet, but also they, probably, will cost like USD 900 a pair at least.
One more time, many thanks for sharing with us and keep it up, its very important.
Who sells the Svetlana 300B? I can't find it, not even on their website. I've heard of AVVT but not familiar with tubes.
Fact is, none of these current 300B's are real (WE) 300B designs, nor can they be. Different time, manufacturing process, materials, design. There wasn't carbon/mesh-plate, globes, XLS,..etc. This is why many customers experience premature failure with their tubes because they don't match the amp. They want extra power, giant globes,..etc and end up burning them out due to incompatibility. I want the closest thing to WE 300B w/o all the glitz.
I feel very sorry, but not for you, for Sophia's "service".
Thanks for sharing this, man, thats sucks, totally. So, tell me, do you still like their kind attitude? Are you kidding me?! No good means full refund, no questions ask, thats how it must be, period.
AVVT is the one man company, which do not in the business anymore for many years, but this guy Alesa Vaic was/is an genius, who couldnt handle the business part, but developed one of the finest modern tubes out there.
You can buy Svetlana's from jacmusic.com, I believe, just send Jac an e-mail, he is one of the best to deal with it, imo.
Like I wrote, if you want WE's, just buy WE's, period. If you cant do that, just compromise, so, maybe KR Balloone's after all?
I agree. The right thing to do is offer customer choice of refund or another replacement. Sophia has been more helpful then most though, but still no excuse. This experience makes me reconsider EML, KR, and Shuguang Treasure. It's a gamble with any current production tube, especially power tubes in my experience. I've had better reliability from 1940's-1950's NOS tubes. And as mentioned before; I can't afford NOS WE 300B now. Had to sell my pair to help get by.
Are you aware of the fact that Sophia introduced a new flagship? For USD 1200 only you will get the best of the best, but if you hurry up for USD 999 its the best deal ever.
I just hope that WE will be in production soon again.
I can only imagine that as tube merchants see the thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars being spent on the tube amplifiers that their tubes will be used in, and knowing how much influence that the tube has on the amplifier's sound, that they want a piece of that action.
I received a replacement set of Sophia Carbon Princesses that were tested for lower emissions. They are biasing just fine. I wish I could make more appropriate comparisons, but for now, all I can say is that they are significantly more detailed, extended and dynamic than the Golden Dragons that they replaced. That's right out of the box. I was told to give them a hundred hours to break in.
Good to hear that, keep us informed about the sonic changes, if any. I never tried their carbon's, so, nothing I can say here, but seems that they are less upfront than Princess Mesh's and also warmer?
Hoping that Sakahara gets his good replacements soon, so we may read his impression as well.
Third pair is the charm... so far. I can't comment on the sound at this time because I'm still sorting out which music server to use.
I think the first pair may have been fine but I can't be certain. I replaced another tube along with the Sophia 300B pair and everything sounds stable now. But the second pair definitely had an issue with one tube being at a much lower volume (stayed with tube when swapped between mono blocks).
I just noticed that $1200 Royal Princess. Everyone wants in on the high-priced 300B tube market. Each brand trying to out do the other. The EAT 300B is also $1200. Wasn't the VIAC AVVT also?
Good to hear Sakahara, hopefully you will be pleased with them for a long time.
Its difficult to say the last about the 300B market, but from USD599 for top of the line pair to USD1200 is a huge jump to me. You know, not every person on earth owns USD10k+ SET amp, but a lot of folks appreciate music, where the most are simply like we are, trying to complete our systems with acceptable demage, if you know what I mean. And at this price range, at least for me, it simply ends, no matter how good these babies are.
EAT was not cheap from the start, but others, like KR, AVVT and EML were and still are on the acceptable side. We can get EAT's for EUR 700-750 a pair here, but like EUR500-550 for a pair of AVVT's, KR's or EML's. So, basicaly they are, almost, at the same price level, where EAT still step ahead. Not sure, but from the info I could find so far, they were not that expensive back in the 1997 when all that modern production were starting, but their quality was also less from the start. After couple of years some were gone, AVVT, but some came in the market, EML, and some just keep going, KR and EAT, so, the stronger survies, I guess.
The huge problem is the mega influence from Asia, mass production, which been suported by many high end manufactures, they just dont suport own brands, like WE and all others I mentioned. The only amp maker I know that were selling their 300B amps with WE's was Air Tight, but even they are not US or EU based. Another amp maker, such as Leben, which is also Japanese, sold their models with NOS Mullards at the time. Maybe there were more, but I dont know that, but I hope you get it what I am trying to say. When original TESLA factory were making their tubes, which cost nothing compared to so called NOS from US or EU, nobody, simply nobody wanted them. After the German wall failed, they couldnt make it in the market, were broken in parts and there you go, EAT were born plus others, who trying to do their possible best, using what left or re-building new.
Anyway, thats how I see things and they may change in the future, but I am definitely done with some brands.
I am currently using the new Sophia Royal Princess 300B tubes in my Woo Audio WA5LE. Wow, what a tube. I have compared it to WE, Sophia Mesh, Sophia Carbonplate, Shuguang Treasure, and EML Mesh. It tops all of them. Yes, it is pricey. I think it is the best currently available.
Rgurney, Would you elaborate a bit on the Royal Princesse's improvement over the Carbon Princess? The Carbon Princesse's have so thoroughly trounced my Golden Dragons that comparison seems silly. In addition to the improvements that I was expecting in detail, dynamics and extension, there is better separation of instruments in a more believable space. Voices are striking in their naturalness. I live within walking distance of a small club that regularly features Patricia Barber, so I always use her CDs as a reference. Until now, I've been convinced that her CD's were on the dark side of neutral. Now, they sound so much closer to the real Patricia. Same for Keith Jarrett, who I try to hear whenever he's in town. There are many great 300b tubes that I haven't heard, so I'm really intrigued by the new Royals.
Phaelon - The Sophia Electric website posts some helpful User Reviews/Feedback for each type of Princess. I agree with their assessments. Depending on your system and your musical tastes, a particular kind of 300B(mesh vs. carbon plate) may be used to better advantage than the other. The new Royal Princess somehow seems to magically combine the strengths of each kind of Princess - Mesh and Carbon.I say 'magically' because from outward appearances, the tube looks like a Carbon. Yet it has more of the air and extension of the Mesh, while keeping the dynamics and naturalness of the Carbon, with perhaps an intermediate seating position in the hall. I've tried all the 300B tubes except EAT and this is the best for me.
Rgurney: NOS or current production WE 300B? And EML,..etc are less then half the cost of Royal Princess so I hope it's twice as good sounding. I would have tried the EML and KR were it not for Sophia Carbon. Still may some time in the future.
Maxmad - Yes, that is correct. All meshplate tubes, as far as I know, including Sophias, are NOT drop-in replacements for solid plate 300B tubes. They require a decrease in dissipation, as stated on the jacmusic website. Yes, the Woo is designed to handle meshplate 300B tubes without over-driving them.
I like Sophia's Princess meshes or more accurately, "perforated plates" :-).
I have them plus some EML solid, KR and WE's. I would love to try the EML "true" meshes but was also warned to be careful of what amp I put them in.
I have never had a problem with the Sophias in my other 300b amps (Art Audio Symphony II and a custom one). I recently got some new Cary 300b monoblocks. They came with their own Cary branded/made to their spec 300b's which are mesh/perforated. No problem with their tubes in their amp. When I rolled the Sophias, within 5 minutes I had a orange spot developing on the plates. These particular Cary's run the tube real hard and you can't adjust it. Over 400 volts and 80 mA of current. Yeah, that gets you around 15 watts out of a 300b but at what price? Way shorter lifespan for sure and I don't think they sounded as good as my 7 watt and 10 watt 300b amps (those run in the 300's voltage wise, and maybe 50-60 mA's). I had a tech add a resistor to the Cary's to drop the bias down to 65 mA and the Sophias still developed an orange spot. The Cary's are now gone.
To someone interested in meshes, I would recommend contacting the maker of your 300b amp and asking them what voltage and current they are running the tube at. Even though a solid plate can dissapate more heat, it will have a shorter life if it's ran hard. Short of finding out those specs, I would guess you would be safe with the meshes if the amp is rated at less than 10 wpc and safer yet, 7 wpc. Hope this helped.
01-21-11: Rgurney I've tried all the 300B tubes except EAT and this is the best for me.
Although I meant every word I said about the Carbon Princesses improvement over the Golden Dragons, curiosity got the better of me and I upgraded to the Royal Princesses. These tubes take me to the music venues in a way that I havent experienced. Soundstage, imaging and depth are significantly more realistic than before. Inner detail improved, and not just marginally. The big shocker is the improvement in the base. I believe that this is the best Ive heard from tubes. All instruments and voices are more natural and present. I dont have the 300b experience that some have, but I find it very easy to believe Rgurney.
Hi Charles1dad, I sent the Carbon Princesses back. I should have compared the two more closely. All I can say now, is that no differences jumped out.....until I plugged them in.
This from the Sophia website: "From the outside, the Royal Princess 300B tube looks similar to Carbon Plate Princess 300B (share the same glassware enclosure), however, the design philosophy is quite different and the internal design and material is different as well."
Thanks Phaelon, I`m very happy with my Shuguang Treasure tubes, but these top Sophias seem quite special. I wish you many long and satisfying hours with them.
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