I believe Auntjenof2 getting AVVT 32BL's, correct me if I am wrong.
If yes, congrats, fantastic tubes and please take a sit before you open up the package, because they are hypnotising, so, be careful:-) |
@Ladavid
Probably quality of material, process and control procedure, but also the quantity. For example, Shuguang, TJ and maybe EH manufacturing like 500 valves a day, maybe more, but KR, EML or EAT manufacturing like 500 in month, all hand made, from start to the end, that's the difference.
As for the sound, I never tried any cheap Chinese or Russians so far, so, nothing I can tell here. |
Cheap Chinees, such as TJ's or other's have problems to keep bias at the level, they just don't, so, if I were you, I would buy from trusty source and the high quality only. I have read a lot about 300B's and many of them just dont have the quality level, however they may sound pretty good, but like many already said, if they will be dead in a short time, why bother?
Go for EML's or KR's, but tubular, earlier production type. I own a pair and they are very good. |
The problem with EML's Mesh, they cant be used on any 300B amp, bad, very bad, cos I am very interested in them. My amp is Cary CAD 300B SEI. |
I ment, ON EVERY 300B amp, sorry guys... |
There is a huge difference in quality control between cheap TJ's or others and say Sophia's. Even they both comming from out of TJ factory doesnt mean they are the same quality or even construction.
I have had Sophia's Mesh Princess and my expirience with them is nothing but good. Sound sig is something else and thats where your own ears must tell you what ever you like them or not, but technicaly they were good, kept the bias at the level, every time I checked.
As far as my 300B tubes rolling goes, got the feeling that there are no perfect tubes around, otherwise who would buy others. Another thing is, what they call Mesh, all Chinees makers include Sophia's, arent real Mesh and the only real thing are EML's, but like I wrote, damn thing about them is that they can not be used on every 300B amp ( cos of plates voltage differences, I believe ), so, before you do that, just check with official dealer about your amp specifications. I own Cary CAD 300B SEI and, according to the EML, cant use them and thats my huge freaking frustration, cos I think, possible, they are the best Mesh's around.
Another option could be EAT, which are slightly expensiver than EML's and much more expensiver than Sophia's, but from a very good source I understood that they are very, very good. |
You can try jacmusic.com, Jac is the man to deal with, however not sure if he going to sell outside of EU, but you can try.
From things I read/heard EML's are not WE's, but thats doesnt mean a bad thing, however depends on amp / set up you use. So far, I am pretty settled with KR's tubular type and AVVT's 32B CL, which I believe would be close to EML's, but not 100% sure about it.
From things I read about the WE's, they are sweet, but modern production tubes, except TJ Globe Mesh and Sophia's Mesh, arent sweet. They are punchy, articulate/tight, with more nutral ( some call flat ) mids, extended with great 3d image and great deep bass. If thats what WE's are, well, you got the winning ticket:-)
I own Cary CAD 300SEI and use full house of ECC33 Mullards Brown base as driver and input and the results are very good. But when I use some other tubes, such as RCA Grey coated, Sylvania Bad Boys or TS Mouse Ears the mids are showing some "weakness", at least in my system. By the way, I use ECC82 Mullards in my CDP as well, all NOS 50's production, so, no muddy stuff here.
One of my hobby mates using EAT 300B's and he is very impressed, but these are like EUR800 a pair here in EU, not particular cheap, but if you are looking for WE replacement you may not going to find any, however most CARY 300SEI users, include me, thinks that Sophia's Mesh are way to go if you are looking for close replica, but than again, in your amp it may be differ sounding. |
I just checked with my buddy and he wrote that EAT would be very close to my AVVT's, so, not sweet baby either. |
I just forgot to mention KR 300B Baloon type, seems that they are very, very good, put them on my list now.
Here some impressions http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/kraudio300bballon.htm
Congrats on Sophia's, let us know what you think of them. |
Would be interesting to read some of your impressions.
THX |
@Sakahara
I wouldn't judge KR bad so fast, unless you have had that experience already...
May I ask you which Sophia's did you buy? Thing is, at least with TJ's, where Sophia's are coming from, that the less expensive pairs aren't that good with keeping the bias and that's very well known problem with them, however Sophia's suppose to have much better quality control. I owned ceramic based Mesh plated, but the most expensive from their line with 1 year warranty and never had any issue with bias or unbalanced L&R.
I sold them and probably will never buy again, KR and AVVT's are my reference now. My next pair, probably, will be KR Balloon 300B, which seems to be better than reissue WE's and they are USD 525 a pair with 2 years of warranty http://www.kraudioproducts.com/Kr/ProductDetail.aspx?CatID=13&ProductID=3
Dont get me wrong guys, but most Chinese tubes are trash and the very small production line, which are also very expensive, are one to get, but than again, even Sophia's so called Mesh aren't really Mesh at all. I say, buy tubes from manufactures who developing and producing good quality tubes, support them instead of some who don't develop a single thing and just re-brand and re-sell.
Thanks for sharing and good luck. |
@Charles1dad
Thanks for your replay, no argue here, cos I know about KR issues in that regard, but also you have to be sure which tubes you are putting in your equipment, cos they may not sound that good as you may expect. Result of this is the necessary tube rolling, which means spending money, lots of it. When I bought my Cary CAD 300SEI it came with full house of Sophia's and I was really pleased until I tried KR's, AVVT's, but more important differ driver and input tubes, cos Cary benefits a lot from them, some say even more than 300B rolling, but I believe in a good total match instead. Now I use full house of ECC33 Mullards, which to me are everything you may need from tubes. But than again, depends on speakers or else you are using... Thats why research and lots of reading, before actually purchase, making more sense up here.
Chinese, in general, trying to produce that sound clone of WE's in many differ ways, while for example Svetlana from Sensor in St.Petersburg like 80% of the WE sound sig, but for like USD 260 - 320 a pair, which is known for a very long time. They did have some quality issues in the past, but seems that now its all over. They are also on my list, but first I want KR Balloon's.
About the service of KR's. TJ's US dealer stopped importing their top notch carbon, cos of the same problems, to many broken tubes and to many issues with replacement, so, its not just KR.
THX |
Well, there was nothing wrong with quality, but there were just to many that came broken, at least thats what Grant Audio stated on their website.
You know, I am in the tube hobby for some time now and strange thing about the tubes is, if you pack them well, they just dont broke, but if they are bad, they just bad:-)
Anyway, here is some nice article about Svetlana's
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1199/sv300b.htm |
@Sakahara
Thanks for your replay. I am very sorry to hear that you having this issue and believe me, not trying to convince you to do anything, all I wrote is my opinion only. On the other hand, its very good/cool that you share your situation, cos folks should know about this, imo. I would say, take your money, never look back. Even I never have had any issues with Sophias Princess Mesh 300B/N with white ceramic base, which are top of their list and sells for USD450 with 1 year warranty, still think we dont have to support their kindness, no, we have to suport the quality of the product in the first place. If nobody buys their cheaper lines, it will disapear. Well, just forget it, dont want to people think I am Chinese hater or something.
If you are looking for WE sound sig I would go for Svetlana's, but than again, personaly I never tried any, so, thats where we have to believe this enjoythemusic guy. But the most important thing, buy from the trusty source where you can get your full deposit back if you will have some issues with them. This enjoythemusic guy also tested top TJ Carbon's that been mentioned already, but they were like USD 695 a pair and sounded better than WE's, but later same guy tested these KR Balloon's and ended up with them, where TJ's took 2nd place and WE's 3rd.
Why I stil telling you this? Simply because you seems to want WE's really badly, but you wouldnt find any of WE's sound in general line of KR, EML or Treasure, cos all of them having so called modern kind of sound and thats true. Personaly, I found a lot similarities between KR and AVVT's I own, but thats not that strange, cos KR and AVVT guy were working together in the beginning and AVVT guy left KR and started his own company AVVT. He also have had some issues, but after 1999 its been over, so, anything before that will be to risky. Same goes to KR's, where they also have had some problems, but this particular Balloon pair comes with 2 years of warranty, which to me is a lot. Of course you should ask them about their warranty policy first, so you know before you buy.
At the end, if you cant go for more expensiver lines of any been mentioned, Svetlana's, which are still in production, will be your only choice here or check the used market for other mentioned brands, however I wouldnt do that either, to much risk, imo.
By the way, WE supose to restart their production around May of this year, but than again, this is not sure yet, but also they, probably, will cost like USD 900 a pair at least.
One more time, many thanks for sharing with us and keep it up, its very important.
Good luck. |
I feel very sorry, but not for you, for Sophia's "service".
Thanks for sharing this, man, thats sucks, totally. So, tell me, do you still like their kind attitude? Are you kidding me?! No good means full refund, no questions ask, thats how it must be, period.
AVVT is the one man company, which do not in the business anymore for many years, but this guy Alesa Vaic was/is an genius, who couldnt handle the business part, but developed one of the finest modern tubes out there.
You can buy Svetlana's from jacmusic.com, I believe, just send Jac an e-mail, he is one of the best to deal with it, imo.
Like I wrote, if you want WE's, just buy WE's, period. If you cant do that, just compromise, so, maybe KR Balloone's after all?
Just wonder why you sold WE's in the first place? |
Are you aware of the fact that Sophia introduced a new flagship? For USD 1200 only you will get the best of the best, but if you hurry up for USD 999 its the best deal ever.
I just hope that WE will be in production soon again. |
I think that Sophia push over the top this time, even they are that good, where this greedy attitude are comming from?! |
@Phaelon
Good to hear that, keep us informed about the sonic changes, if any. I never tried their carbon's, so, nothing I can say here, but seems that they are less upfront than Princess Mesh's and also warmer?
Hoping that Sakahara gets his good replacements soon, so we may read his impression as well.
THX |
Good to hear Sakahara, hopefully you will be pleased with them for a long time.
Its difficult to say the last about the 300B market, but from USD599 for top of the line pair to USD1200 is a huge jump to me. You know, not every person on earth owns USD10k+ SET amp, but a lot of folks appreciate music, where the most are simply like we are, trying to complete our systems with acceptable demage, if you know what I mean. And at this price range, at least for me, it simply ends, no matter how good these babies are.
EAT was not cheap from the start, but others, like KR, AVVT and EML were and still are on the acceptable side. We can get EAT's for EUR 700-750 a pair here, but like EUR500-550 for a pair of AVVT's, KR's or EML's. So, basicaly they are, almost, at the same price level, where EAT still step ahead.
Not sure, but from the info I could find so far, they were not that expensive back in the 1997 when all that modern production were starting, but their quality was also less from the start. After couple of years some were gone, AVVT, but some came in the market, EML, and some just keep going, KR and EAT, so, the stronger survies, I guess.
The huge problem is the mega influence from Asia, mass production, which been suported by many high end manufactures, they just dont suport own brands, like WE and all others I mentioned. The only amp maker I know that were selling their 300B amps with WE's was Air Tight, but even they are not US or EU based. Another amp maker, such as Leben, which is also Japanese, sold their models with NOS Mullards at the time. Maybe there were more, but I dont know that, but I hope you get it what I am trying to say. When original TESLA factory were making their tubes, which cost nothing compared to so called NOS from US or EU, nobody, simply nobody wanted them. After the German wall failed, they couldnt make it in the market, were broken in parts and there you go, EAT were born plus others, who trying to do their possible best, using what left or re-building new.
Anyway, thats how I see things and they may change in the future, but I am definitely done with some brands.
THX |
@Rgurney
From the info I got from jacmusic.com EML 300B Mesh arent direct replacement of general 300B tube. Are your Woo modded or something?
THX |
Thanks Rgurney, clear, but Sophias Mesh can be used just without problem, becides, they arent really Mesh's:-) |
@Sakahara
Saw you were selling your Sophia's, was kind of confused until now.
You mean this one? http://www.thoeress.com/en/f2a11-stereo-amplifier/
Very unusual design for sure, but its German, so, must be good:-)
Their speakers looks very impressive to.
Interesting how it compare sonicaly to 300B based amp. |
Do not want to repeat myself again, but I think for those who own mono's or not Adaptive auto bias amps this can be a very huge issue.
Thing is, many manufactures offering auto-bias right now, so, this keeps you away of the fact what ever your tubes are stable or not, cos you just don't see that, so, why bother? The guys from PrimaLuna developed Adaptive Auto Bias http://www.primaluna-usa.com/product-main/prologue/prologue-two , which offering you the best possible solution and the reason, I believe, is basically the mass production of really bad tubes, which are used all over the world. You should see the stock KT88 I got when I bought Prologue Two, very poor quality and cheap material. They even dare to say that they produce a decent sound. Well, I dont think so
So, to me, tubes should be at very high quality, especially when their price range starts around USD 350-400 for a pair, not even want to start about USD 1000 a pair, which Royal's are, but that's not what we were talking about, cos not many users are around who bought a pair , I guess, and I do hope their quality check is better now. But than again, if you have to get the quality at that price range only, man, I am out, even they sound great. |
Thanks for sharing Sakahara.
You probably knew, but you may want contact to Michael about Tung Sol http://www.vacuumtubes.com/
Most what I can see are Siemens made with metal base and they are not cheap at all:-) |
Just dont want to start another one, so, I bumping this thread.
Tried Sophia Royal 300B's and now I am sure that these were the last Chinese made clones I ever put in my amp. |
What I was saying is that Sophia Royal is an clone as well and not that others making an clone of it. Sophia's are made at TJ Full Music with special order / control / requirements of Sophia. |
Oh, I just re-read my post and it may sound that I really like Royal's, but I am not.
All I was saying is that no way I will be using any Chinese made clones, include Sophia's, in my amp, ever. |
I compared them to AVVT 32BL and AVVT 300B C37, where both of them are simply superior to Sophia's.
Sophia's do not sound natural to me, they have to metallic tone on top and to upfront midbass, they are simply not balanced enough, which is totally not acceptable in that price range, imo. Also they are not airy enough and goes not further than 2D kind of picture, while AVVT's are totally 3D with everything in the place: deep bass, smooth mids and lovely top end, where detail aren't forced, like at Sophia's. It seemst that Sophia's tell you how the music must sounds like and not just let you enjoy it, especially with complex things, they just dont keep up the level.
These tubes are USD 500-600 range, sound and quality wise, but even then, I wouldn't buy them.
Their metallic tone was in their "Mesh" model I owned in the past as well, sold it pretty fast.
If these tubes were the only 300B's on planet, I will be changing my amp fast.
They had around 100 hours on them, if somebody interesting.
It may sound to negative, but I simply don't accept any faults anymore, especially for such money. |
Dear Phil ( 213cobra ),
Many thanks for your post and even agree with it, I still having doubts about the price v.s. performance of Sophia's.
A good friend of my uses Royal's in his Zanden 7000 and after he tried AVVT C37, he started to hear all these things I have been describing more clearly.
Sophia "Mesh" been described, at least by many Cary CAD 300sei users, as match made in heaven. It took me not that long to realize that its not.
This is not the coincidence that Treasures, for example, didnt do it for me either, Royal's are for sure better, but not vs. AVVT's and KR's. My KR's are tubular type, not in production anymore and have pretty much identical inside construction as AVVT 32BL, but in much smaller glass. Going to give them more listening time, KR's I mean, because they just stay in box after C37 arrived.
The easier way to describe my feelings is when Royal's are installed, I listen to Royal's, and when AVVT's, I listen to music.
There is another player in town, Takatsuki TA 300B, made in Japan with huge influence of Air Tight, here is the link where you can read some impressions
http://robertmusic.blogspot.com/2011/07/heads-up-coming-very-soon-takatsuke-ta.html
I dont have anything to do with these guys and dont know more than you, after you read the post from the link, but he seems to have the best 300B's around and even he didnt compare them to everything he owns yet, but so far, he is very impressed with these Japanese...
THX |
Charles, I kind of tube addicted, have many differ 6SN7 variations, such as ECC33, B65, CV1988 and 5692, so, no surprises here:-)
THX |
Its been already described by some guys who owns the best 300B out there that these are new top range product, so, 6moons is bit late:-)
But if I have to be more serious, its not that exciting for us, because the price in EU will be around EUR1300-1500, crazy, if you ask me. If thats the true, I am out. |
I wrote Jeff, who is a very nice gentleman by the way, my thoughts, after I read his. His response was more than enough for me to get extra prove that tubes perform not equally in differ amps. His system is out of my range and simply great, but I do own Tannoy's as well and drive them by Cary CAD 300sei with AVVT's and KR's, where all of them have their own tonality and presentation, but all sounds fantastic in the musical and balance way. There are 3 huge complains about RP that I have:
1. Their top end sounds to metallic
2. Their low end is to prominent and sound more as midbass than deep bass
3. Their mids are flat and even shouting in some situations to my taste, some may call neutral?, but midbass try to cover that issue, however without big success
I have had almost the same issue with their Princess line, where mids were really good, but top end also had metallic tone and low end was to boomy.
Already said enough about their MSRP and will leave this alone.
On the positive note, there are folks I know personally, who loved them. One good friend of my running them in his beautiful Zanden 7000 and sold WE re-issue after all, so, for each is his own and that's a fact. Unfortunately, I didnt have the opportunity to hear them in his system yet, but we are planning something in May, so, I will try to come back with extra info after that.
@Charles1dad
Will be very interesting to read your impressions, but because you love BT's, which I didn't like in my Cary as well, I do expect you to like RP even more and if I have to choose from two, RP will be the one, but then again, based on my own system only.
THX |
I have a pair of these http://app.audiogon.com/listings/456096
It's really pity that the seller didn't follow the advice of Jac from jacmusic, who clearly describes about AVVT tubes. They need to be treated with kind of wake up procedure, before you use them after years of storage and that's not possible at home, so, you need to send them to Jac for that. Some tubes even show really poor test results before treatment and become normal after, really strange and exciting that tubes can do that.
Not sure about issue he describes, whatever it have something to do with their long term of not been used, is beyond me and you can better ask Jac about that one, but the price is good, however Jac still have them in stock for EUR500=USD650 a pair plus shipping and even with that price they are worth every penny, imo.
One that I really like to try is EML 300XLS, which, according to some, give AVVT's a bit of the hard time, hmm, thats why they got and still have my attention. They don't have that "problem" that for example KR 300XLS have, not perform at their best if used in normal 300B amps. EML's perform identically good in both amplifications, while KR's shining in steroids amps only.
And, there is always EAT, that I strongly believe are simply re-issue of AVVT 300B's. Not sure how they managed that, but I am kind of glad they did. |
Amp is Cary CAD 300sei classic model
Speakers are Tannoy D700
Speakers cable is Supra Ply 3.4/S
CD player Unison Research Unico with 2x ECC82 in output stage
THX |
Even I agree about burn in period of tubes, but wouldn't that be interesting to know the first impressions, the middle impressions and the final one?
If you ask me, yes, I want to know that kind of development, so, if possible, post some of it please.
THX |
|
Charles1dad, what are your first impressions?
THX |
Charles1dad
Air Tight is a part of this production, cos they were waiting to long for WE restart the production and now it seems that it will never happened, so, they did it. There is a very small amount of review of this tube, but I do believe you will be having an audio orgasmus for sure, so, let us know about RP first pls, one step at the time.
THX |
Charles1dad, like I wrote, I do expect you to like RP's more than BT's
Takatsuki, on the other hand, I expect to be the top of the line, combining the refinement, preciseness, balance, richness/warmth, deepest bass and musicality, which makes the product the best out there. I heard from someone who owns many top of the line tubes, NOS and present production, and his opinion is that Takatsuki are the best and only AVVT Mesh dont loose their reference first place. Also he found EML 300XLS to be closer to Takatsuki than any of his collection or those he tried, but not the same of course. They seems to share deep&powerfull bass with huge stage, but than Takatsuki's ( and now I post his writings, cos I cant do that ) tonality is very rich, but not overly warm - that, IMO, obscures tonality and detail. It IS warm - organic is perhaps a better word. Supremely musical.
So, I dont doubt you made the right choice to buy them after all, congtrats by the way:-)
THX |
Will keep it simple
Digital front - 47 labs Flatfish CD transport
Progression DAC
Custome 300B amp build by James Burgess
Tannoy Turnberry 10 dual concentric drivers
And everything in between:-) |
Charles1dad
Any luck for comming weekend?:-) |
Great news Charles1dad!
Give them around 100, but I believe they will show you the potentials after several good hours. Come back soon with your impressions.
THX |
Charles1dad, man, now you are talking!
I am like you, but already have 3 pairs and have something on order, not tubes this time, so, these must wait for a while.
Thanks for your impressions, its clear to me and if you use them for another 100 hours, they settle fully by then for sure. |
Charles1dad,
Just wait until you get RP's, but to be honest, USD1200 is way to much for them. They sure were better than BT in my Cary, but no way they can be compared to the real thing.
I agree about AVVT Mesh's, very difficult to find, but also very risky to buy, even for say USD500 a pair, you can't be sure they will not die on you next month, cos you never know how much and how heavy they were working in somebody else amp.
The same reason for me do not buy any NOS Svetlana's, certainly not from Russia or from not trusty source, cos many are just B stock and really bad at the end. I found a real Svetlana's that were made in the years of US ownership and these are the only one to try/get, but even then, their history is unknown, so, putting USD350 for a pair is very risky and I just didnt get them.
I mentioned 100 hours only, because it will be more than enough, think even less than that, to say that these are fully settled. Normally, and I think that's the case with Takatsuki as well, they burn them for like 24 - 48 hours nonstop, before they pass the manufacturing test. I know that AVVT did the same, not sure if this counts for all of their production years, but say after 1999 is. Do you believe any Chinese made tubes going to be tested like that? I doubt, especially when they make 500 tubes in hour, while an real handmade manufacture make like 500 in month, so, no comment.
I think if you ask the Takatsuki seller about their testing procedure they may tell you more, would be interesting to know, if that's not much trouble for you of course.
Keep informing us please.
THX |
Any updates regarding RP's?
How many hours on Takatsuki Charles1dad? Any improvements?
THX |
Takatsuki going to make 274B tube as well, price JPY80.000 = USD960 each.
By the way, their new black base with yellow print on it version is so beautiful that I have to hit myself real hard to keep it cool. |
I am done with RP's, see my earlier posts please.
Charles1dad waiting for his pair, as far as I know, its all depending on how fast Sophia arange the replacement pair.
Hey guys, anyone of you knows that STC 4300B tubes actually can be used as direct 300B replacement?
These are so rare that I dont think we ever see anyone here to post something about it, but I just thought to mention this would be interesting.
Another, less exciting news, is that Takatsuki going to be much expensiver soon, say around JPY 30.000 = USD360 more than now, so, if you want to order, do it now.
THX |
Chalrles1dad, great news, finally you will be able to start the comparison.
I must say, I am not sure, cos it can be an kind of speculation as well, I just asked this person again if the info he got is true, but if it's going to happened than it will be within one month from now, that's what he heard.
I just thought it may help folks to spare some money, if Takatsuki will increase their price I mean, thats all.
He also mention that EAT is going to re-design their 300B tube around September 2012, however I am not sure of this either. |
Just got the info and yes, Amtrans confirm the price increase and base color change.
Regarding EAT. They seem to stop the production of their line around Nov 2011 and he got the personal confirmation from EAT boss Jozefina, where she wrote about new design and release date of it. |
No, they seem to upgrade them as well, but its all in Japanese, can someone read / translate this please?
http://www.takatsuki-denki.co.jp/pdf/TA-300B_TA-274B_pressrelease120308.pdf
THX |
