Don Caballero - What Burns Never Returns
Herbie Hancock - Sextant |
Qdrone: I'm not familiar with the Bowie you referenced. I'm really not sure if you are agreeing with me now on the RO lp or making a stronger case? The artists I mentioned above, all have bass and none are sterile or uninvolving, IMO.
I'm willing to go into detail on how I hear these lps: The RO lp:
(1) Soundstage: In my system the soundstage isn't what I hear in comparison to "Heartbeat City". On HC, there is a spread of the instruments across the stage, extending beyond my speaker's boundaries. On the RO lp, the majority of the soundstage is well within my speaker's boundaries. This aspect doesn't allow for a "soundstage spread". There (is) noticeable air or bloom, (however one perceives this) but I don't interpret that as part of my definition of soundstage.
If you'd care to expand on your perception of the RO lp in more detail, I'd be interested in your opinion. Otherwise, I feel we are getting off the main disagreement in our own opinions of the RO lp. |
...this may help...
My definition of thin or sterile is not a lack of bass but a lack of "soul". This "soul" is the essence of music. To me it (is) the hard to explain (in words) factor that finds whatever is within us and somehow gels with what the artist is trying to convey. It's what makes (me) bob my head or tap my feet or get goose bumps when listening, and I don't feel the need to think about taking the lp off my tt. This, along with how it would sound "live" is key. (When I attend a live show, I've never come away with thinking about air or bloom, to me that is a part of the listening at home experience that is a plus to some or a minus to others). Maybe a better definition would be artificial. Listening to music live compared to listening to the RO lp in my system is like night and day. (Aren't we suppose to be concerned with recreating music in our homes as it would sound live?) Also, thin and sterile, to me is a'kin to someone scratching their fingernails across a blackboard, a memory I didn't like in grade school and one I don't care for now.
I focused my response above on "soundstage" since that is what you seemed to say was your priority in making a judgement on an extraordinary lp recommendation. If you'd care to expand on that one point, we could focus more on our differences regarding the RO lp. |
...it seems (to me) that you're making short, general statements (confusing the main point you posted) and not responding fully to the point that you made, all the while, again, avoiding the main issue I had with your original post? Shew!!!
...I'm calming down now.. |
So many things affect Soundstage from associated equipment to room acoustics to proper toe in of speakers. In one of your posts I commented on adjusting the VTA of your tone arm for the optimum sound from your table. It is key and that is the reason I moved on from that tonarm. It is to demanding to keep it in proper tune. Don't get me wrong it is one of the best bargins out there and I still own mine but the arm I have now is low maintence. I have been playing with the VTA on my tonearm for a week and it is locked in now. Albums that were unlistenable able 2 weeks ago (Killer/Alice, The Pretenders/ Nautilus Super Disc) now are sublime.90% of all recordings on my analog extend beyond my speakers and with proper VTA my obsession with owning an Original pressing is abated. I will take a 2nd pressing on a table with proper VTA over an original pressing with a arm where the VTA is slightly off.
In re:to soul in music it means to me can you feel or hear the emotion in the recording.
In re:to sterile sounding to me it sounds to clean stripped of it's emotion.
I think we have hi jacked this thread enough so let's let this be the end of our discussion. Happy listening partner. |
Qdrone: In the thread you referred to, the topic was more about different pressings of a particular lp.. You (seemed) to ask if I made any adjustments to my arm in making comparisons to the green label re-issue of "Beautiful Loser" vs. the original orange label copy. My response was no. ( I think all will agree that in making comparisons to different lps, (all other things being equal), that you shouldn't change anything (except VTA if the lps were thicker by comparison). In the case you mentioned, the lps were the same thickness so, any adjustment wouldn't have been a fair comparison!
Anyway, I agree that we should move on. I do appreciate the lively discussion. Thanks. |
Sorry... regarding the ET (2.5 arm optimized for high pressure), in my almost 30 years of experience with this arm, it is "key" that you really have it set up correctly, with an excellent/dry/ air source then and only then can one be confident in it's abilities on an ongoing basis. This is of coarse, my opinion. You do seem to make one think that the only difference between the ET and the other tonearm you are using is VTA. I find that to be misleading. I'm not sure if you've contributed to the (ET thread) or not. I think you should check it out.
A new recommendation:
Hot Tuna (S/T) "recorded live at the New Orleans House, Berkeley" (early black label pressing)
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One/I, could/will, make a point that with all of the differences in varying recordings by varying artists in varying venues with varying electronics/acoustics, in the analog or digital era that, it is a good thing that (in my system) all of these varying differences are laid out for me to hear. I'm really glad that the vast majority of my collection doesn't sound similar. This, (IMO), would not be a system/room that I could honestly make recommendations on for sonics or electronics or extraordinary lps. Peace! |
I too, apologize for "hijacking" this thread. It belongs to everyone. I felt that since I originated it, that I have a certain responsibility to "oversee it" to a degree.
I feel that this discussion was important in that, to me, it lets one see the difference between setting up one's system with a certain goal in mind that is either to do one of the following two things:
(A) Enjoy your record collection with primary goal being enjoying most recordings as much as possible disregarding the variances of differing recording venues, techniques, locations, live/studio, digital/analog, etc....or..
(B) Enjoy your record collection with the primary goal being listening to what's on the lp and being able to discern this for better or for worse.
If you agree with these two points, I think an appropriate question would be, which point makes the most sense in being able to evaluate and make a recommendation regarding sonics on a various recordings? This is the essence of what this hobby is all about, IMO. |
Emergency / Kool and the Gang
Great sonics on this disc. |
Alan Parsons "I Robot" MFSL |
Laurindo Almeida/Charlie Byrd "Tango" (Groove Note 45rpm) |
Chet Atkins/Mark Knopfler "Neck And Neck". I have the original, I assume the MOV is also excellent! |
I'm pumped!
Mark Kozelek "Lost Verses Live"
Alan Parsons "A Turn Of a Friendly Card" (Japan)
Pinback "Autumn of the Seraphs"(a definite, runner up!)
John Fahey "America" |
Black Dub "S/T" 1st pressing. |
Slaw, if you like Black Dub, you should pick up the Trixie Whitley EP cut at 45 from Belgium with one track, "I'd Rather Go Blind" (not to be confused with the famous Etta James' piece). Same band, same tunefulness, even better production quality than the album. Don't confuse this with other EPs she cut which have the same track- the one to get is essentially a 10 inch single. You can buy it online from a shop in Belgium, not sure it is available in the States directly. |
Whart: Thanks. Thanks a lot! |
This may be my last writing on the above issue here. I can hear a collective sigh of relief...(I get it)...I think the discussion I've had with Qdrone warrants a separate thread regarding something on the order of...
(1) how we've become so used to digital, we've forgotten how well recorded analog just blows digital away
(2) Re: (the above statement), this has been so engrained that we've set up our systems, altered our listening habits, and all the while changed our component selection priorities in order to suit inferior recordings
(3) let's take our heads out of the sand that the music industry has put there for us for 3 decades
One tell tale sign of the difference between a well recorded all analog lp and it's digital equal will be no matter high you turn the volume up, on the analog lp, you'll want more. You'll never, ever feel the need to cover your ears or take that lp off your platter!
I'm always thinking of the newbies to analog that are coming to this site wanting advice from us, the veterans of the analog era. I want to try and leave something substantial behind from my hobby that has and continues to bring me so much joy.
Another recommendation. This one is so well recorded and from the era of analog. While, in a perfect world, it should be the norm. Since we're having the above discussion, I feel compelled to recommend this one very highly. Wishbone Ash "No Smoke Without Fire". Mine is a MCA w/ light brown/tan label, w/ a darker brown circle close to the the outer edge. (I'll try and post a pic on my virtual system page). Wow! This record is unique in that it really features the bass guitar. You will be glad.
An interesting (to me) evaluation is:
Fleetwood Mac "Tango In The Night" vs their S/T MFSL lp.
Analog vs digital!
The TITN is clean & clear (my code phrase for digital), and it is, to me, more enjoyable than the Ric Ocasek lp (it has a complete soundstage) referenced above, still I can readily tell it's a digital recording that lacks warmth and soul. Their S/T lp is a whole different ballgame folks! Again, I can turn the volume up, up, up and never even think about changing the record. I just want more. The difference IS night & day friends. |
..an encouraging statistic is that since this threads' inception, it has produced over 3200 hits! |
Slaw, at the risk of stirring the pot, I just did an extensive shoot-out of Tull's Aqualung, and included first pressings, U.S. and UK, some early U.S. Reprise pressings (the sort of stuff you can find in a bin on the cheap), and most of the "audiophile" reissues, including the Mo-Fi, the DCC, the Classic Records (33, 45 Quiex and 45 Clarity). I also included the Steve Wilson remix, which was taken from the multitrack tapes, dumped to digital and remixed. It is a considerable improvement of a murky, and sonically 'uneven' album. The digital did not get in the way. I'm a dyed in the wool analog guy, I don't use any source but vinyl in my main system and I'm generally inclined--not always- to early pressings rather than remasters. But, the Wilson re-do works. And it does come from a digital master. So, I would not condemn digital as an effective tool. And in the right hands, doesn't necessarily suffer from digititis. I do think that all of this is more art than science and you really have to take it on a case by case basis. |
Whart: Point taken! And I'd have to agree with you on this criteria:
(1) (The lp you referenced is not the norm!) ( I admit I haven't heard it, but I did start a thread on this particular lp because I felt that given the person (Steven Wilson) sought out by the original artist, as their choice for taking over such a seminal lp (and he's been asked to do King Crimson's as well, I was VERY interested in it!
(2) I think you'd agree that there are always instances in which digital done smartly will be enjoyable but these instances are rare and far between.
Another thorny issue:. Porcupine Tree... while these lps are very well recorded and very consistently recorded, I can tell they are not analog in analog's true sense. There, I said it! (I own all of them except for the "live" lp). |
...my last statement brings up another important point for those new to analog. Be thoughtful regarding (your own insight) when reading posts made here. Also, be willing to do your due diligence in (your) task in making an effort to reach your own conclusions! There is nothing more important than your own, first hand, experience. |
Whart: The artists I referenced earlier in this thread are representative of the point you just made. These are lps made in the digital era. While they are enjoyable, they still don't pass "my ultimate test" that I referenced earlier. I've said in a different post, last year, that Beck consistently makes analog sounding records. They still don't pass my simple test. |
Whart: A perfect example of your post may be The Beatles "Let It Be...NAKED". I rest my case. |
... ("adjusting your arms' VTA") on any given recording for "a pure sonic return", (if there is no difference in the record thickness), is a (tell) that either your set-up is sub-par or you are adjusting for that particular recordings' faults! |
I keep a piece of masking tape taped to my Bright Star Sandbox which my table sits on with the proper VTA settings for 140 gram vinyl 150,180 and 200. I adjust accordingly since it is just the twist of the dial after I loosen he screw. I benifits are immense,the reward is priceless. |
Turn of a friendly card Japanese pressing is outstanding but a Alan Parsons Pyramid Japanese pressing is in the same league sound wise.
Also the Japanese pressing of Band of GGypsy's is killer to. It's the cover with a doll figure of Jimi. It blows any other copy on the planet out of the water. |
Qdrone: As you know, being an ET owner, (by the way, would you reveal which version you own please? I ask this for the following reason, the sonic return between the standard ET 2 vs. the ET 2.5 is enormous!), we have a scale with various visual increments. This is one way to eyeball VTA. I use this in conjunction with my precise set-up of my cartridge (in the "neutral zone" of the arc block adjustment range) for 180gr. lps. (This is the middle of the range I find best in my collection that mostly includes 120 through 200 gr. pressings). In this way of set-up. I can also visually align the top of my cartridge body with the top of my record weight. This allows two different but precise alternatives in which to gauge proper VTA. Also, since we have an (arc block) that by it's nature, tells one that there will be a fluctuation of "overhang" when adjusting VTA, that it is essential one set up the optimum way in my prescribed neutral zone to minimize this "overhang change" when going from lps of varying thicknesses.
The way you just described in which you adjust VTA is obviously from a different arm. I think you're getting off track from our original issue again.. this time it is with the ET arm. (The last time you moved the subject (Ric Ocasek lp) out of the equation to the Bowie.
My apologies again... for this I offer Jack Johnson "In Between Dreams" 1st pressing.
|
... all the while... The main factor considering all of the above is that one has the center of the spindle aligned with the center of the lp when all of the above is achieved.
Qdrone, can you say that you've achieved this in addition to the points laid out above? Thank you. |
While looking at recent threads, I was inspired!
Bob Marley "Exodus" MFSL
Bests "Natty Dread" Speakers Corner by a mile!
Qdrone: While you list your components, you don't list any pictures or any tangible way for us to examine your set-up. I'm glad you've listed an Alan Parsons lp here. I'm curious as to how you justify that lp and your recommendation of that lp vs. the Ric Ocasek lp? On this particular thread, I'd think you should be able to, instantly, give us your interpretations of any substantial difference, (if any).
In fact the MFSL Bob Marley "Exodus" is going on my list! |
I can bring out lp after lp that bests, in every way the RO lp without batting one eye! And, all the while, these/those lps don't meet my criteria for Extraordinary Lps On Vinyl!
IMO, it would have been best to admit that you were wrong or at least, misspoke.
Right now, I'm listening to Thin Lizzy "Jailbreak". Totally beats the RO in EVERY way! |
AC/DC "74 Jailbreak" (from the 12 or so lp box set several years ago. Blows AWAY the RO lp!
Is someone else going to "man-up" and join in? |
Qdrone: IMO, by your own standards, at least 50% of my collection will meet your criteria for Extraordinary Recordings On Vinyl.
Tell us all, after you've answered the questions above, how you still make your case? |
.. by the way... All of this was instigated by you. Yet, you've not provided us with your ET configuration, pictures of your setup., etc...
Then, you have slickly changed the subject to other things, as noted above, So, Qdrone, when are YOU going to become the one we should look to for guidance on these issues? I say, the time is right now. I think your next post should be, at the very least, your current system configuration, regarding your ET, (which ET you have, plus your history with that ET configuration)... then and only then, will we try to accept your "history" regarding that arm! |
The "Bill Clinton" defense: doesn't really work anymore.
"I DID NOT HAVE "audio-sex" with that TT!" |
Objection your honor, badgering the witness. |
Qdrone: On 6/14 you recommended Eagles "HC" MOFI. I'd/We'd like to know how this recording equals the RO lp you have enthusiastically endorsed?! Please, please let us in on your secrets! Please respond with an explanation that would give us an over-riding reason to understand your definition of "Extraordinary Recordings On Vinyl".
While I don't own the MOFI, I'm currently listening to the DCC. |
Acman3: I assume your post assumes that this, (the only one here, who seems to care about what is posted here), is referring to me?
What about letting the person respond for him/herself?
This is, after all, a free/site/ that all can post their own feelings!... or at least, that's what I thought? |
Why are we even listening to what's posted here if, others butt in on an important question regarding the "essence" of the whole debate:
I, don't have ANYONE "backing me up ", I'm relying on my 3 decades of "listening". Try and beat that! (Also, I'm giving the readers pictures and a very important visual picture of my system)!
I've yet to read anyone who (that hasn't agreed with me yet)? Qdrone continues to stay the coarse/. Why doesn't Acman3 send a post to Qdrone that he/she is most likely mistaken?? |
Please, please tell me why this is happening? |
You are correct, I should have stayed out of your thread, and will from now on.
It just seemed counter productive to your purpose of getting others to discuss their ideas. Carry on! |
All I'm asking is for (Qdrone) to admit he is wrong. If you or others feel I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong!
This will not be resolved until this simple concept is resolved.
Acman3: Your response still seems to have me as the person who is not cooperating?! That IS totally wrong and you know it! |
Apparently, I'm the ONE person who is wrong, (no matter what other's say don't say!)
Thanks for nothing. It seems that all of "this" has been a total waste of time! |
****Is someone else going to "man-up" and join in?****
I'll join in.
****This is, after all, a free/site/ that all can post their own feelings!... or at least, that's what I thought?****
Like I said, I'll join in.
****I, don't have ANYONE "backing me up ",****
Be careful what you wish for; "backing up" takes different forms.
Slaw, your passion for music is undeniable and admirable; there is no way I could not back up someone with that kind of love for music. It is for that reason, and because I am a participant in this thread, that I feel compelled to practice what you preach and freely express my feelings.
Imo, you personalize these issues way too readily and come across as very heavy handed with, among other things, your demands for admissions of being wrong. It is unfortunate that what could be interesting discourse gets derailed by passion that shoots itself in the foot as exemplified by the fact that participants stop participating (posting).
The connection between this attitude and the relevant (to me) musical issue might be very interesting, but is probably way above my pay-grade. That musical issue is the relationship between the quality of the music and the perceived sound quality of the recording of that music. I feel it needs to be pointed out that for all the proclamations about love for the music, about 99% of the commentary has been about the sound quality of the recording. Where is the commentary about the music? Not the sound of the drums or the soundstage; the music. We as audiophiles love our music to sound good, but I think there exists a lack of understanding or, at least, lack of context about the relationship between the music and the sound.
Comments were made in earlier posts about respect for the artists; impossible to argue against that. However, it should be remembered that in order to respect the artist one must understand the artist and the artist mentality. Dirty little secret: many artists don't concern themselves with the "sound" of their recorded music the way that audiophiles do. They are so steeped in what constitutes MUSIC that concern about the nth degree of soundstage clarity or tonal nuance becomes almost insulting to the music and that artist's musical vision. Remember, what may be "horrific" sound by audiophile standards is perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of listeners and perfectly capable of getting the musical message across. As always, perspective is everything. I am not talking about truly awful recordings that are so sonically toxic that the music can't come through. Frankly, I don't hear too many like that; and, obviously, there is nothing wrong with seeking out great sounding recordings. Clearly, there are some artists that do care about having superb sound; but, it needs to be remembered that the final sound is often beyond the artist's control or concern. The take-away of all this is that if we truly respect the music and the artist, we should be prepared to put sound quality a distant second when assessing a recording's greatness. IMO. |
Slaw you mentioned a Frazey ford album. I heard her on CBC, loved it and had to buy a few of her albums. Got one and the sonics were absolutely horrible, unlistenable. Wonder if it's the same label as yours? |
Yeah I'm bowing out to,Slaw you need counseling. I own the 2.5 et with a stock and wisa pump run in tandem into a homemade surge tank to answer your question. As I stated I have moved on and use a Graham Engineering Phantom 2 Supreme tone arm. I do not have to feel I need to provide pictures nor do I feel that I have to defend what I feel are better than average recordings.
I wish you peace. Please do not drag me into anymore discussions I respected your opinion I'm sorry you couldn't just live with mine.
GOOD DAY. |
I appreciate the thoughtful and "direct" responses above! I accept them for their true, intended purpose and I feel they are valid and, as I said, thoughtful.
Credit where credit is due... Whart, I purchased the Trixie Whitely "I'd Rather Go Blind" 10" vinyl. For one song, this may be the most expensive lp I own. However, to me, it's worth it. Thanks again for the recommendation.
I apologize that I seem to have ruined this thread. |
To Qdrone: I can't for the life of me conceive of anyone "dragging" me into a discussion without my actual act of responding! Does your post above actually mean that, someone you don't know, someone you obviously don't agree with on these matters, someone who, differs, greatly from your posts,... somehow has control of any further response you make or may make?
If there's one thing I know, it's that I'm responsible for any post I make. I'll never, ever try to make another's post, an excuse for a response that (I didn't want to make)!
As Frogman says, "Man Up"! |
slaw, im going to look for the s/t in the dead wax of BlackDub, is that how i know i have a first press. ive enjoyed it whichever press it is. whart, thanks for the heads up on that 10inch. |
For the record, Slaw, it was you who said "man-up"; not I. |
