So let's not discuss it at all? |
I am also with Eric and Headsnappin.
What is bright, what is right timber/tone, what is warm, overly warm. You don't know as is differs from person to person depending upon their live music listening experiences. And biases. |
|
A suggestion from my side.
I have picked a few Jazz records first.
Don't expect any surprises here.
Each of these records has stand the test of time and each and everyone has outstanding sonic virtues AND does provide a very natural sonic envelope AND is very enjoyable to listen to for the music alone.
Furthermore each and every of these discs can serve in several different aspects as a benchmark disc.
I have done some research and right now - 07/07/2009 - each and every of these records is available as a reissue through the usual audiophile sources.
This is not a complete list.
However every of this records is a "test" record of the very highest caliber - even if it might not apparent at first glance.
- each record is avaialble NEW now
- through mailorder for everyone
- each record is US$50 or less
- most records do have a VERY similar groove angle - VERY IMPORTANT !!!!
I have added a few very short notes to each record.
In no particular order:
Jazz:
- Dave Brubeck: "Time Out" CS-8192 Classic Records
***** direct, airy, superb livelike-presence, stunning high-frequency percussion details, superb timeless music masterpiece, a groundbreaking record *****
- Miles Davis: "Kind of Blue" CS-8163 Classic Records
***** outstanding low level detail, extremely wide range of tone colors, perfect - yet hard to reproduce soundstaging of the group members, sense of rythmic flow and fantastic interaction between the musicans- the two saxophones in their very different styles in particular. *****
- Coleman Hawkins: "Today and now" AIPJ-34
***** direct, fast, live-like presence, true "physical weight" of each and every instrument, stunning dynamics and one of my all time favorites if it comes to demonstrate speed, pace, groove and energy. *****
- Oscar Peterson: "We get requests" V6-8606 Speakers Corner
***** perfect soundstage, very precise, natural and beautiful captured piano without any of the usual high-lightening, stunning, outstanding natural recorded acoustic bass which is VERY hard to reproduce in the correct balance towards the percussion set and the piano, superb tiny low level detail (Ray Brown's humming while he really goes into it) while dominant bass line often overwhelming everything on lesser systems. Fantastic album you will play over and over again because of the superb tracks and ease of the pieces. Timeless******
- Stan Getz / Jao Gilberto V6-8545 Speakers Corner Reissue
****** w/ Astrud Gilberto. No need to add any comments - do I ? *****
I would like to add either Oliver Nelsons "Blues and the abstract truth", Eric Dolphy's "Out to lunch" and most important Earl Hines "Once upon a time" - I am still checking if any of these 3 records is due to be re-released on vinyl soon.
All these records do come from times past.
All are "classics".
All are cut today with identical cutting angles - so we do not have to mess around with different VTA for each record.
All are recorded with very natural acoustical envelope.
All are recorded with fairly little miking and without amplified instruments.
I can supply much more detailed listening remarks on each of these records.
Aside from this topic here - I strongly recommend to get any of these 5 records in case you haven't done so.
They are timeless and great records of the last and this century.
We won't see any better coming our way in our life-time.
Classical to be added tomorrow.
Some Rock/Pop towards the weekend.
Please continue to supply some of your thoughts.
Please keep in mind that the records must be readily available, US$50 or less and - if possible - reissues from one of the major sources Classic Records, Speakers Corner or Acoustic Sounds.
This will help to keep the VTA almost identical for all these records and will MUCH improve the common ground aspect regarding the set-up of the front-end. |
I thought the subject of this thread was a good one when I first saw it. Now after having contributed once and read through twice, I think it will end up raising more questions than answering.
First of all, there was discussion of whether or not certain albums were sonically up to snuff. Then the discussion digressed into a pissing match over set-up. The third, an possibly the most fatal flaw in all this, is being able to communicate that which you hear such that the majority of people reading the "review" will comprehend what the reviewer is talking about. One doesn't need to read many audiophile periodicals to understand that even the "professionals" struggle to get this one right.
I'm not here to throw a wet blanket on the party, but even after certain "reference" recordings are chosen, a lot of other "standards" have to be established and agreed to for this exercise to have any analytical value.
Or we can just continue on tilting windmills . . .
Eric |
Dear Axel, dear Frogman, I will illustrate in the list of my "picks" the point of the unamplified instruments in live space.
Stay tuned - I will be back tuesday night with my list and a few words about each record on it.
Cheers,
D. |
|
Hi D. and Frogman,
I thing your reply did not fully cover what Frogman was on about. But let's see if he concurs with my notion.
A. |
Dear All, as the question about the "ultimate goal" just came up again:
- It is not about ultimate sonic quality of a pressing. We do need a careful selected group of records which shall serve as a "common ground" to link and desvribe all sonic impressions each one has in his system set-up or with inidvidual components.
While I am perfectly aware that usually the vintage first pressing are the better sounding, we must restrict ourselves to what is CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FOR EVERYONE.
So - no 1s/1s Reiner PInes of Rome (just as an example...), but instead the "normal" below $50 Classic Records Reissue with33 1/3 and on one record only.......
EVERYONE must have access to all these records by mail-order (internet) or standard audio retail shop.
This is about the chance to give each and everyone the very same tool at hand and thus creating one FIXED POINT to set the "lever".
While the discussion about sonic differences in certain records is fruitful and important to extract the essence, in the very end we are forced by reality to restrict the "common ground LP package" to what we can buy today NEW.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Stiltskin,
Maybe Axel and I both have poor modern re-issues of the Belafonte, but we are both hearing the same things in the 'applause' department and I think a lot of it is due to the fact that this recording is a compilation of at least 2 (and probably more) concerts over several evenings.
As a result, there is much 'cut and paste' of individual tracks and thus the applause is faded out before the 'paste' of a 'new' track. This lack of continuity is disturbing to say the least and to me, destroys the 'live event' experience.
In fact, on careful listening, I believe the voice and instruments could be identically recorded in the studio?.....please don't crucify me for this sacrilege?
Axel, couldn't agree more on Dave Brubeck's Time Out. I have both the mono and stereo versions and prefer the stereo.
Want some rock??.....Roxy Music 'Avalon' and Brian Ferry 'Boys and Girls'. Great soundstage, balance, frequency extensions AND music!
Try Massive Attack's 'Protection' if you want to test the accuracy of your systems bass (and subwoofers). It is easy to have them, turned up too much and overpower the balance of the vocals.
Once again Axel, I agree with Paul Simon's 'Graceland' but for even better sound integrity, listen to his 'Hearts and Bones' and 'One Trick Pony' and 'Still Crazy after All these Years' and 'There Goes Rhymin Simon'.
This man knows his recording engineers!
Also Moby '18', Nelly Furtado 'Loose', 'Diary of Alecia Keys' and then the Joan Armatrading's 'Me Myself I', 'To the Limit', 'Show Some Emotion'.
And the Beatles 'Abbey Road'....easily the best recorded of their seminal albums.
But I eagerly await Daniel's list?
Regards
Henry |
While I think that discussion of music, as opposed to equipment is a refreshing and extremely worthwhile endeavor, I confess to being a bit perplexed by what the ultimate goal of this proposal might be. I don't really get it.
This is not meant to in any way offend, but I find it telling that in more than sixty posts, there has not been one mention of how all of the expressed opinions about this recording's or that recording's merits (or lack thereof), mentions of dynamics, brightness, obvious (or not so obvious) sense of space, etc., relate to the sound of real instruments played live.
The idea of a common listening bias was proposed a long time ago by pioneering audiophiles like JG Holt and Harry Pearson. And the most useful common bias has to be the sound of real, unmplified instruments in a real space. IMO this is not up for debate. What is the point of mentioning that Eric Clapton's "Unplugged" conveys more ambient information than The Weaver's Carnegie Hall, when "Unplugged", while it sounds very immediate and spacious, also sounds very tipped up in the highs, with way too much leading edge to the sound of the guitars? The Weaver's recording converys a far more realistic, and natural sound; compared to the sound of acoustic instruments, voices, and audience sounds, as heard live. What's the point of mentioning that a horn section sounds a tad bright, without answering the question: "compared to what?" Maybe it is, but have you ever experienced a great big band live? The brass section of a great orchestra? It can sound incredibly "bright".
I think the basic premise of this discussion is great, but I would love to see much more emphasis on how all of this relates to the real sound of live instruments and voices. |
Agree with Dave Brubeck Quartet "Time Out" Classic Records
I think Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers deserve a mention "Moanin" mono Classic Records.
We need a bit more Rock... |
Yes Perrew but there ( RIAA ) I have the control on it through our phonolinepreamp design and in the other side you can have a near " perfect "cartrdge/tonearm/record set-up and enjoy more time the music that every 30-60 seconds stand up and fine tunning the set up " again and again " ( to " mantain " the " perfect " set up ).
I do that perfect set up when I need it: tests/comparisons on audio items, my main target is try to have the more time I have hearing and enjoying the music.
I already pass the " stage " where we are " fighting " with the hardware, I learn how o do it for I can enjoy the music like ever: this is part of us each audio learning curve, there are people that are where I'm and there are other people that are down stairs.
The audio and especially the each one targets are unique to each one person, each one of us have/has different priorities and different music/sound reproduction perception in a global target: music/sound reproduction in audio home systems, and due to those different priorities exist different quality performance levels. There are no especial rules here, only what we want and how we want it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Henry, No sir you did not offend me, if that's what you hear from your pressing then that's what you hear.
As you know what Dertnarm is after is current and readily available pressings for anyone interested in participating.
My RCA pressings of Belafonte Live are not. The most recent being Classic Records 45 RPM single side box set from a couple of years back and a fairly decent early original pressing.
None of what you and Axel heard on your copies exist on mine.
The opening introduction that leads into Darlin'Cora the audience clapping is distinct and well rendered you immediately get a sense of the size of Cargenie.
The horn section puts a quick end to the clapping then the concert begins.
No where from the intro to the final of the concert do I hear anything remotely to which you described.
All and all the music is vibrant and entertaining
There are many things to be heard that the mics picked up during this concert, from the guy near the stage with some sort of bronchial problems ,subway to a transport outside going through his gears.
Its all there whether you want to hear it or not, it's live.
The current and still available double Lp re-issued by Classic Records is a fairly decent copy.
Compared to a very good pressing on a scale of 1 to 10, I would rate this currently available copy a 6.5 out of 10.Ten being the good pressing.
The intro is a bit washy,the horn section is a tad bright.
Belafontes vocals lack dynamics through out.
More so apparent on the track "John Henry" also there are portions where his voice is a tad harsh on this particular track.
Over all the musical flow of things are a little dull compared to a good pressing.
I borrowed this current issue yesterday to bring this information here.
For decades it's pretty much common knowledge this rare live RCA Victor recording is superb through and through.
However this is not what this thread is about. |
Raul, this is news for me, I thought your position was that you said we should always strive for the best e.g. with 0.01dB RIAA deviations? |
Daniel:It does not sense to drive a Ferrari in a " road "/record where you have to stop every 30-60 seconds because the " road " have tiny imperfections where the " Ferrari can't go on ", it seems to me that is better ( for the day by day music enjoyement. ) to drive an all purpose VW that can go on and on and left the Ferrari only for especial " times/ocasions ".
A Ferrari demands not only a skill driver but an almost and especial " road/track ", well in audio world and especially on the quality of the records everything is almost a " disaster ": no perfect world here.
I always look for " perfection " where I know for sure that I can reach it or where I have the control but in a " road/record track " where you can't be sure in which right conditions was made ( cut. ) and where the " things " change almost every track , why to use a Ferrari that can't " move on "?
Anyway if " drive " ( because you almost can't advance. ) a day by day Ferrari makes you happy go a head, I already pass for that step in my audio learning curve and now I'm learning and enjoying new experiences: the world has to move on!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Axel, I love "Graceland"!!
Haven't listened to "So" for more than 15 years.
Graceland does indeed have an excellent wide range of very different tracks and Ladysmith Black Mazambo's two pieces do add extra spice and most impressive a capella.
A landmark record.
Cheers,
D. |
OK, what about some POP 'side-kick(s)'
Peter Gabriel "SO" (detailed but may be a bit hot mastered?)
Paul Simon "Graceland" (explosive percussions, voices, the lot)
A. |
Dear all, sorry for the side-kick with Raul again.
I apologize.
It was off-topic.
I will supply my suggestions ragrding some of the records I can recommend serving for this project on tuesday.
A sunny sunday to all,
D. |
Dear Raul, you are so right - thats why you hardly ever write a full sentence about any of my remarks .......
What a p(i)e(a)ce of mind.....
Regarding your "Ferrari" - you should consider having a driver training soon.
Cheers,
D. |
D.
thanks for the "Time Out" vote. Good to know it's available still/again on vinyl --- any source you'd like to mention?
As to: >>>ambient and individual details in a fairly quite audience are about the utmost low level <<<
Oh, YES, yes!
But excuse me, applause is not: "... about the utmost low level" and that is what Halcro, and I consecutively where on about.
The APPLAUSE is, well... 'lacking' in comparison to the rest, and becomes somehow a little annoying...
It sounds like some patched in 'canned' piece of sound track, to call a spade a spade.
A. |
Dear Dertonarm: I own a " Ferrari " too and I use it when I need it, just for fun you know!
The only " one road " around with no return is the worst that can happen to any person that you like it and even enjoy it is ok because is you who have to load in your " shoulders " and can't enjoy the short whole marvelous life that offer so many natural alternatives.
Daniel, seriously, you don't have the right " skills " ( mind/brain ) to try that I feel bad with your comments, don't lose your time I'm to " strong " for you, sorry but such is life.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Axel,
ambient and individual details in a fairly quite audience are about the utmost low level information engraved in a record. All the other sonic details with higher level can and will long be present. The most tiny details do only come up when the polished area of the stylus is as close to 100% aligned to the groove walls as possible.
Logic - isn't it.
Time Out is readly available currently and gets my vote for one of the finest recorded and most interesting Jazz albums ever.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Raul, absolutely no problem.
If you are used to and fine and fully satisfied driving every day with an old VW Beetle for pure enjoyment that is totally o.k.
No need to give comments on the technical aspects and behaviour in extreme driving situations about a Ferrari or Audi RS8 then - thats all I meant and I am happy to learn that you agree.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " When Raul mentioned in another thread that he does not care about this, I knew instantly that all his sonic descriptions are a hollow joke and without any content. " +++++
that is not exactly because any one ( " even me. " ) knows the importance on the subject but in my " day by day " I enjoy the music in a splendid way ( very near of that " perfection ". ) with out the little " stress " to put every single track right on set-up.
I only make this when I'm testing or making some comparison between audio items. Things has to be more simple to enjoy the music and if you are not capable to enjoy the music near that " perfection " I can understand that.
My very first target is to enjoy the music in the best way using my time to hear and enjoy that music letting to the ocasion that I need to do it put that near " perfection " set-up ( day by day ) to a " perfect " set-up on the tracks that I need it because you know that even in the same record " things " change due to our analog imperfect world.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
D.
I hear what you say, and as such there can be no argument.
If however everything (voices, instruments) sounds just right, and the applause does not (it's what I try to relate) then it doesn't sound like a VTA issue to me.
Unless, we are saying that applause is the 'new' guide-line in setting VTA, and not the voice/instrument.
It would mean we have to go from 'voicing' to 'applaucing'?
I do know that lesser resolving systems make applause sound more like water falling. But a good resolution makes it clear it is actually water and not 'white noise' also (if it is water :-) --- which is fine as far as my speakers go.
By the way, the percussion / cymbal work on the "Time Out" is pretty well captured, unfortunately not all of the piano.
Also there is a more recent HDCD of "Time Out" and I could argue that my rather old LP still sounds better, more palpable.
But is this LP still or again available, to your knowledge?
A. |
Hi Axel, do lower the SME V (I know - not that easy...) until your VTA is complaint to the groove-angle - no matter what pressing of the Belafonte set.
Once achieved the soundstage will open up and all a sudden the audience with lots of indiviadual voices in clear separation and many precise echos from the walls and galleries are there.
They are there.
If you do not hear them ....yet .... it is a matter of not matching VTA.
Every sonic statement about a front-end component - cartridge, tonearm or preamp - given WITHOUT precise groove-angle-compliant VTA adjustment is NULL AND VOID.
When Raul mentioned in another thread that he does not care about this, I knew instantly that all his sonic descriptions are a hollow joke and without any content.
If you do not care about compliant VTA - RECORD GROOVE COMPLIANT ! - then all your other efforts to improve your analog system are futile from the start.
Much lesser systems will outperform yours for a fraction of the money.
Fact of life - not my fault.
The sonic result then is always something by chance - not what is precisely engraved.
People may accuse me of being overly insistive on the precision in set-up, but you simply waste your US$, RAND, YEN, EURO and Pesos alike if you do not work precisely and if your VTA is not adjusted to the cutting angle with which the groove of the LP on your platter was cut.
Again - if you do not hear something the other does - it neither means the other is longing for enhancing distortions or has a strange sounding system.
It might very well be that his VTA is just precisely aligned - and yours is not.
Its a tricky game - but this was common knowledge in 1988 among all serious record collectors with audiophile orientation.
Talking about knowledge getting lost....
Cheers,
D. |
Hi,
let's maybe get some jazz in the mix also?
All time goodie "Time Out" by Dave Brubeck Quartet.
'6 eye' Columbia CS 8192
Or is this not so easily available any more?
Interesting with this one for me. When the set-up is fine you get a clear pre-echo when in the start-wax -- and the 'walking bass-line' becomes nicely noticeable, i.e. the timing sounds right, otherwise it can get a bit lost.
A.
PS: I tried my Belafonte again, the applause is annoyingly sounding like a 'waterfall', too bad. Yes, there is some 'live' hall information too. But that audience must have been done by the sound-engineer's apprentice . |
Here is one, which fits all (it is Classic, but even those who have absolutely no affinaty to it, will enjoy it, it is nothing depressive), a reissue from Classic Records, current available
LSC 2327, BIZET / CHABRIER
This is one of those rare records which has everything and - very important - NO limit, it will go up with your system, the better it is, the more Details you will "see".When right, then you have a view into that Performance from above,
it is clear from the tonal spectrum, very deep soundstage (no limit), endless Detail, deep Bass (no, that is not the Subway :-) ), in short: excellent for comparison.
Others are good too from the CR Batch, but with this one here you will get an extraordinary focus in 3 Dimensions, the holographic Dynamic is program, best described with "Living Presence".
HP once created the word "Gestalt" for his description about cartridges, here you will "see" and hear what's all about.
Endless pressure between the 2 speakers (not via volume knob from your preamp, it is the power IN the performance) with all kind of Details you can imagine. No matter how often you will listen to it, you will always discover something new. Side 2 is killer, Bass will move your stomach even at moderate level...
One of my 4 tops. |
Dear Henry,
I am rather MUCH more into recordings then into tonearms.
The records were and always will be my center of apssion as far as audio goes.
Thats why I am so fanatica about groove-cut-angle compliant VTA.
And yse, - I beleive taht this is one of the many points why a common ground based on a few handful of reciords agreeed upon can serve us all so well.
Indeed Stiltskin - teh Belafonte is superb. I have 2 copys 1s/A1 all four sides. One of my favourits live-albums.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi,
back to Belafonte.
The following I can dig up:
1) RCA LOC-6006 1959, 2 LPs, MONO (USA)
2) RCA LSO-6006 1959, 2 LPs, STEREO (USA)
3) RCA LSO-6006 ca. 1968, 2 LPs, Stereo (England)
4) Classic Records, RCA LSO-6006 1995, 2 LPs, STEREO (USA)
5) Classic Records, 1995, 1 LP, 45 RPM, White pressing (USA)
*) RCA 6006-2-R, 1992, CD, (FRG)
6) mine, pressed in Seoul, Korea, RCA orange Label,
etc. pp
So, it might just be a bit difficult in comparing this lot, as I had eluded to earlier.
Axel |
Hi Daniel Axel and Stiltskin, side one on the Royal Ballet set is dead on perfect phase - the other 3 sides are not. A common problem with many major classical recordings in the period from 1958 to 1963 That's incredible information Daniel. How do you know this? It sure explains things. If I reverse the phase on the other sides (via my preamp), will they then sound like side 1? Interesting comment about the correct VTA for Weavers and Belafonte and your description of the 'waterfall'....which is just what I hear? Sorry to offend Stiltskin, but that was precisely why I mentioned those much acclaimed albums. They have never sounded to me like 'magic' and in describing what I hear and receiving your responses (especially Daniel's).....I believe we are achieving what Daniel wanted to when he started this discourse?.........to be able to discuss exactly WHAT we are all hearing on the same source material? Incredibly valuable stuff if you ask me? Regards Henry |
Wheather your a fan of Belafonte or not, the fact remains this particular recording is superb with NONE of the discribed issues above....None.
I can only guess why Halcro would say what he did, most likey a poor pressing for sure.
Anyone with a good pressing vintage or re-issue will tell you the same.
If your system can't handle this recording you need to make adjustments and or get a good pressing.
Good grief. |
OK, Belafonte at Carnegie Hall...
The applause on my lot supports Halcro's gripe, not very defined at all, the singer is there very nicely but superior 'hall information' .... I think I heard better. ---Now we are of course supposed to listing to the performers and they are very well defined.
Here is a clue: This album was **at least** 6 time re-issued and not getting better by the time I got my orange budget (I guess) label RCA.
Could explain some of it, yes?
A. |
Oh, oh, now we're getting down to brass-tacks!
Who'll be the judge on all this lot now?
Got to pull this Belafonte LP from under my locker and see what's what.
I do recall the music is not exactly down everyones alley though, my girl friend (17 year younger to say) is going to throw stuff at me I suspect.
A. |
Halcro your description of what you hear off Belafonte's long time and highly regarded performance is totally mystifying.
"Voices and instruments undemanding though well recorded""
"Audience is simply an ill defined and sometimes a distorted screech of nebulous applause"
WHAT!
This excellent R.C.A. recording has been known as such among music enthuses for "decades".... |
Hi, in general the DECCA-engineers had a more lucky hand regarding absolute phase in the recording equipment than their collegues at RCA and EMI.
Thats why on the best DECCA SXLs you will have - once your VTA is 100% (...99%) groove-compliant - a extremely convincing recreation of the actual recording location, its proportions, separation and localizing of individual voices and the sense of real air.
Ma mère L'Oye is good - but on a par with another 30-35 DECCA recordings.
Then the OSR is first rate rarely.
But this DECCA too may serve well.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi, one more?
"Ma Mère L'Oye" by Ravel with Ansermet and OSR?
Any comments on that one's 'PHASE'?
Another that's 'too good' by any chance?
A. |
Halcro, D.
>>> side one on the Royal Ballet set is dead on perfect phase - the other 3 sides are not...<<<
I follow this with great interest :-)
The one (for me) most important short coming of side 1, the stereo double album, (I also have the single 1st disc in mono), the cutter left that 'nasty' 50Hz buzz 'marking/trace' on the groove.
It can be clearly heard subsiding when going into dead wax.
There are a number of older recordings (period from 1958 to 1963) that seem to have that exact problem also, I'm thinking DG.
Maybe we can get 'Atmasphere' to comment on this, as he seems the one contributor most closely knowledgeable of cutting-lathes, and their problems.
Axel
|
Hi Halcro, side one on the Royal Ballet set is dead on perfect phase - the other 3 sides are not. A common problem with many major classical recordings in the period from 1958 to 1963 - the first movement of Reiner's Scheherazade (well - not Reiner's but Rimsky-Korsakoff's....) and the "Heldenleben" by Thomas beecham are other good examples.
Agree on most everything you wrote, but the Weavers as well as Belafonte's first Carnegie album do indeed live up to their reputation with correct applied groove-compliant VTA. Then the space opens up and the audience becomes an audience and is no longer a waterfall.
But this is not about sonic differences in pressings and VTAs - sorry for the discourse.
Keep up the good work - I think we are doing fine.
Have a great weekend,
D. |
Hi Axel,
Whilst the full set of The Royal Ballet is good, for some reason side 1 of record 1 is better than the others and as you so rightly claim, it is perhaps the most realistic, sublime and convincing recording of the full symphonic orchestra able to be reproduced in one's listening room?
Dear Daniel, all my suggestions are readily available for under $50 (allowing for double LPs). I specifically do not go for the 200gm 45RPM re-issues.
I've never been convinced by the much admired Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall and his Return album, nor the Weavers Reunion at Carnegie Hall (all of which I have).
Whilst not being my taste in musical genre, I find the voices and instruments (though undemanding), to be well recorded. However for me, the true worth of a 'live' recording is hearing a realistic recreation of the 'space' and the audience.
On these albums I hear little of the actual 'space' of Carnegie Hall and the audience is simply an ill defined sometimes distorted screech of nebulous applause.
Compare these to the Simon and Garfunkel Concert in Central Park where you can 'hear' into the night........where the location of a surrounding audience is palpable and individual members of that audience are able to be located.
For that matter, listen to the 'space' and the audience of the Greek Theatre on Neil Diamond's Hot August Night?
Far more difficult instruments to combine and record well than those at the Carnegie Hall concerts.
Even Eric Clapton Unplugged manages a realistic capturing of space and audience. |
Axel, Noticing this electronic hue on the vocals on So Long So Wrong was a slight disappointment and a minor nit pick. I didn't listen deeper to what else could be wrong on the recording,sat back and just enjoyed the music.
With Alison Krauss and Union Station their music is new to me and the handful of times I've played the two Lp sets,
I feel their live Lp is the better of the two, recording wise.
She's so sweet. |
Thanks Stiltskin,
>>> Alisons voice is so sweet...<<< :-) too true! Some latter day Dolly Pardon?
But I think her is a bit 'thin' also, and what I can hear on some tracks they done a dubbed voice-over i.e. she sings it twice to make it sound less a bit fuller.
I was expecting you might have noticed some of that :-) |
Hi Axel, Without getting into a forensic analyst of why these modern day engineers have to do this,knowingly or unknowingly simply put this other wise very good Lp stands out a slight electronic hue that's attached to all of the vocals.
It's not overly distracting for me however too bad it's there, Alisons voice is so sweet.
If you can compare the Live Lp to this studio mix,it does present vocals far more natural, for a modern day recording that is.
|
Stiltskin,
y.s.:
>>>Alison Krauss "So Long so Wrong" Good music, talented band, good recording however the studio mucked with the vocals too much.<<<
Most interesting comment. Any chance elaborating a bit on it?
I have an idea, but let's hear how you would put it, please. |
Natural sounding vocals with little to no artifacts attached for me is of paramount importance on a recording.
"The illustion of, in the room with you kind"
To add from my suggestions above , another one that stands out that is readily available and inexpensive is Joan Baez "Diamonds and Rust"
I never did care for Joan's music until I heard this A&M release through a pair of Quad 63's some 25 plus years ago.
The original release was exceptionally well recorded and the current re-issue is it's equal.
Great band and good music.
Alison Krauss "So Long so Wrong" Good music, talented band, good recording however the studio mucked with the vocals too much.
Their "Live" release has far more natural sounding vocals and is equally entertaining and well recorded. Mobil Fidelity
Joe Williams "Me and The Blues" Speakers Corner , check this one out.
Nat Cole "After Midnight" mono , Pure Pleasure...in deed it is.
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Hi Axel, no worries - just a general reminder.
Cheers,
D. |
Dee,
I got you, -- or was there any million $$$ suggestion, and I don't know :-)?
Have I mentioned some 'hidden' vinyl treasure?
All I own has cost nothing more than $30 and $0.20 the least. |
Dear Halcro, dear Axel, please keep in mind:
- its NOT about the absolute BEST pressing but about the READILY NEW AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE pressing for below US$50.
- it is less about whether there are better test records. Its about a solid common ground for exchanging sonic impressions in a virtual world - i.e.: Audiogon.
- it should use records only, which are a pleasure to listen to NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE SONICS, but entertaining and "good" in the musical sense (thats why my lists will contain in teh majority LPs only, which have stood the test of time and will most likely sound familiar to most music lovers and audiophile .
I am glad to learn, that so far most contributors to this posts seem to have ideas going in the very same direction.
Looks like we can really put together a common ground for a much better communication about sonic issues and topics in the future.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi,
Most suggestions sound very good (the ones I have heard) -- B U T The Eagles "Hotel California" seems the exception here so far.
Tubean, the CD that I have (Made in Germany) is truly and utterly **non-audiophile**.
In contrast "hell freezes over", most of the live stuff, is far superior. Though the side one tracks (all studio), sounds awfully digital to me, even on vinyl.
Viridian, SRV is of course also on CD, but minus the bonus tracks on side 4 vinyl. (It is yet another CD that makes vinyl sound so much better).
Halcro, oh yes!
The Royal Ballet-Ansermet-RCA Victor-Record, actually all 4 sides, why only side 1?
It is THE vinyl to show off vinyl! :-) But as I should think just too good, it "makes every rig sound great"?
Be interesting to see what D. comes up with...
Axel |
