Esoteric K-01

If there is an improvement in sound of high-end single box players (like the Esoteric K-01) when used with a high end external clock like the GORb it is very minimal and subtle. In fact the difference with and without the GORb clock is so incredibly minor that it is extremely difficult if not impossible to detect even with very careful, extensive A-B comparison. Personally, I don't think the GORb has any detectable sonic affect on the K-01.

Unless the A-B comparison is performed as a blind test, it is useless; psychology can play tricks on audio perception.

Is there anyone out there who can compare a high quality single box player (like the K01) with and without a GORb in a blind A-B test and consistently, coreectly indicate when the GORb is on and off? I think not, even you, Alex.

I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. This applies to high end single box players only, not multi box players (where high quality clock use should be easily detected).

Alex: It's been a couple years but as I remember it, the differences for re-clocking the UX-1 and the UX-1 Ltd with the G-0s were subtle and were noticeable only in the upper-mid and particular higher frequencies in terms of removing a slight harshness around instruments' output in these frequencies. There was a very small improvement in the imaging precision (i.e. location of a specific instrument in the sound stage). Candidly, the upgrade from UX-1 to Limited Edition did much more than the clock but nothing was as important as going to the P/D separates both with and without the clock. As I mentioned above, the differences were small with the clock for the single-box player but with all material I did hear them. With respect to DVD-A, there are not that many 176.4hz tracks (at least on the DVD-As that I own) as most of them put a number of different track types on a single DVD-A and do not often go beyond DVD-A tracks in the 96/24 realm. For DVD-A, I found that I had to switch between 88.2 or 176.4 clocking depending upon the material in question for best results. For SACD, I tried 88.2 clocking as well as 176.4. I wound up leaving the clocking at 176.4 for SACD playback (and do also with the P-03U/D-03/G-0s combination). As I mentioned before, the differences with the clock in Rb mode are MUCH more meaningful with the stack over the single box players.

Interestingly enough, I did see a visible improvement in the already impressive visible imaging and up-scaling performance of the UX-1 Limited and the P-03U when playing both traditional and Superbit DVDs when using the G-0s clock at an appropriate clocking frequency. If any of the above is psychological (I did not do full blind A/B testing), I do not believe the effect on video playback is though others may disagree...

Can anybody comment if (and to what extent) K-01 would be an upgrade from the Esoteric P5/D5 combo. Thanks.

I have never compared the two. Esoteric website will outline the diferences. You should compare them at your dealer's shop.

Hello,

I never post here but read stuff once in a while. There's not much out there about the K01 so this thread is one of the only places where I could find some information.

I could compare the P05/D05 to K01 and K03 today. I posted some impressions on head-fi and pasted them here. Note however that these impressions are from short A/B comparisons with unfamiliar recordings / equipment so only worth so much...

arnaud

Originally posted on head-fi:

Ok, there's no way I can justify such an expensive purchase but I could not resist going to listen to the K-01 and K-03 for a short while today...

I went to Dyna 5555 first. It was a loudspeaker setup (shame on me, I don't remember the speakers but some fairly high end full range stuff, probably in the 20-40kUSD range). Amplification / preamp was from mark levinson. I could A/B the K-01 and P-05/D-05 (in CD mode). I listened to some Jazz and Vocal (one of the songs being the most famous tune from Norah Jones) and it was not contest: The K-01 eats the P-05/D-05 alive. The most obvious thing is improved clarity and transparency as if the P05/D05 was hazy in comparison. The next obvious finding was that the voice presence and realism was clearly a notch above when listening to the K-01, it was extremely revealing yet natural at the same time. Very expensive but it appears the K-01 can make CD sound as good as it gets. I briefly compared the CD and SACD layers of the Norah Jones tune and while it wasn't night and day, the SACD layer conveyed room ambience more than the CD layer. In Japan, the K-01 is just slightly more expensive than the P-05/D-05 combo so it appears quite a few owner are currently upgrading.

If I get closer to puller the trigger (it would be after I acquire the C32 so may be a while), I will want to bring my existing Stax gear and Yamamoto D/A in the store and do some AB. But, my impression from today is that my YDA-01 stands very very little chance...

I stumbled upon the K-01 again AND K-03 while visiting another store in akiba. This time, I don't know the amplification but loudspeakers were B&W 804 Diamond. I could again compare the P05-D05 against the K-01 and it was even more obvious than last time around. The P-05/D-05 sounded muffled and muted in comparison to the K-01. I listened first to a Jazz SACD I was not familiar with and then the same Norah Jones album, but CD version this time. The voice was just sooo good with the K01, I was so surprised I was enjoying the sound so much because honestly I haven't been a fan of B&W high-end speakers for long time. I always find them too revealing, but somehow it sounded quite good with the K-01 even though it appears to be a very very resolving source.

Lastly, I could switch to the K03 after listening to the K01, listening to the Norah Jones tune (she sings "don't know why ... blablablabla blah" during the chorus, what song is this ? ;o) ). Well, it was enlightening because while it sounded much more open / resolved than P-05/D-05 it was very clearly a notch down from the K01. On a scale from 1 to 10, I would put the P05/D05 at 4 or 5, the K01 at 10 and the K03 at 7 or 8. So finally, after the listening today, I would go for the K01, not the K03. It is so crazy expensive though...

One interesting thing: another person had come to listen to the K01 before me and both stores staff told me the K01 is selling well. Actually, in the second store, waiting list for K01 is 2-3 months (about 1 month for the K03). Apparently, quite a few P05/D05 owners are upgrading. It's hard to imagine in the current economy and the trend to go to dematerialized source rather than old-fashioned CDs (and even SACDs considering stores like HDtracks), but seems like the new Esoteric players are doing well, at least in Japan!

Well, I could only bring back a brochure home this time, but I can imagine making the jump somehow, someday...

Acharpen,
I agree with your assessment of the K01. I upgraded my Esoteric X01D2 to the K01 about 6 weeks ago. The K01 is the best CD/SACD player I have ever heard. Incredible detail, low level detail, 3d soundstaging, instrument separation, dynamics; beautiful life like music. Instruments seem to appear from a black silent background.

dear Matjet,

thank you for your reply. I am hoping to listen to the K01 again with my Stax headphone rig (I would wanna do that prior to purchase), then I'd be better able to address the performance in terms of instrument separation / imaging. I know this is mainly a loudspeaker forum and might feel strange about talking of imaging performance from headphones, but the Stax Omega 2 and soon coming C32 are amazing at precise placement in both width and depth.

It's actually hard for me to put some qualitative attributes (like low level resolution) from the brief listening I made but at least the A/B vs. the P-05/D-05 lead to far from subtle differences!

regards,
arnaud

I have never spent much tme evaluating headphones, so I am unfamiliar with what can be accomplished with a great se of headphones. Do you use a special head phone amp?

I think comparing the K01 to the P03/D03 would be interesting. The P03/D03 will probably be updated within the next 18 months. I suspect that the K01 will out perform the current P03/D03.

A question to throw out there. Does the K-01 sound equal rca vs. xlr or has anyone made the comparison. I have heard from a reliable source that rcas were used in the voicing of the unit which seems a bit odd to me given that much is made by esoteric of balanced operation. Just wondering.

I have been using balanced with my K01. Maybe I'll try out single ended connection.

Anyone compare balanced to single ended on the K01?

I've compared single ended to balanced on the K-03 and cannot hear a difference.

Dealer disclaimer.

Matjet,

The AK4399 DACs have balanced outputs. In order to provide SE output, a balanced to SE converter is required. To me, this appears as an additional stage on the signal path. So I'd be very surprised if RCA outputs sound better compared to the XLR. Of course, you can always experiment.

BTW, where in the US are you located, if not a secret?

Best,
Alex Peychev

Hi Bill, what was the rest of your system? G.

Guido,
I've been moving the K-03 in and out of different systems but at the moment:
Esoteric C-03
Pass XA30.5
Dynaudio Sapphire

Dealer disclaimer

Thank you Bill, if I remember correctly, C-03 has pseudo-balanced inputs and outputs, while it is internally single ended. This design might have a 'normalizing' effect on C-03, as X-03 output is transformed into single ended no matter what. It might be interested to drive a symmetrically balanced pre that has both XLR and RCA inputs... with X-03 and see what happens.

Saluti,

Guido

That is true Guido.

I'll go back to one of my Pass preamps in due time.

Dealer disclaimer.

Alex,
I live in Ma., near Boston.

Thanks Bill... do keep us posted. G.

Dear Matjet,

Re your inquiry about headphone amps: Stax headphones are electrostatic type so you need a special amplifier for them. I use an SRM727A with my Omega 2 (SR-007A). It's expensive on its own (around 1000USD) but peanuts compared to a source like the K01 and especially relative to proper amplification cost to make a good set of loudspeakers sing.

As to what you can achieve with a good headphone system: a lot! Personally, I have moved away from loudspeakers over 10 years ago and never looked back. The resolution and finesse of Stax electrostats is very hard to beat with loudspeaker based system, even in the stratospheric high end region... I had the privilege to listen to Stax's new flagship prototype (codenamed C32) and, imo, it sets a new standard for headphone based sound reproduction.

This Stax headphones have such resolution that a poor quality source is absolutely no go. On the other hand, unlike many loudspeaker systems, this extreme resolution does not make poor recordings unlistenable. It scales up with the source and recording but never sounds brittle or shrill unless you really feed it with garbage.

The bass is of course missing the chest impact of loudspeaker system but it is so clean and tight and goes very low so, personally, I have totally gotten used to this. It should be a nice experience with the K-01, given Esoteric's fame for solid low end reproduction.

Finally, for imaging, against some learning process is in order to reconstruct a plausible soundstage from headphone. But once you can achieve this, there are again very very few loudspeaker setups that will have such accurate 3D placement of instruments like Stax earspeakers (in particular the C32 which throws a wide and deep soundstage while maintaining perfect instrument placement). Again here, I can't wait to see how it will scale with the K-01!

Sorry for the long reply, headphone addict here ;) If you want to know more: www.head-fi.org...

arnaud.

Arnaud,
Thank you for your interesting and informative reply. I tried some high end headphones including a pair of Stax (I think they retailed for about $1000) a couple of years ago, but the dealer did not have a careful setup, no headphone amp, and I don't recall what we used as the source. I didn't buy because I was not impressed. But a great sounding head phone system would be quite useful, especially if it sounds as good as you describe. Do you feel Stax makes the best headphone? What is their top of the line model and price? What is the best headphone amp/model today (Stax, or other brand)?

I have started a thread on the best earphone/headphones and dedicated amps. I think it is an interesting topic.

Dear Matjet, I own the current top of the line:
> Omega 2 MkII headphone (referred as SR-007A), retailing for 1500-2000USD I think.
> SRM-727A amplifier, this is the solid state version which retails for about 1500USD (you'd need to check where you live, Stax is notoriously expensive outside of Japan). There is also a tube top end Stax amplifier (SRM-007t I think It's called), which is similar price to the SRM-727A but I prefer the former with my Omega 2.
> The prototype C32 headphone is going to be more expensive, probably in 4-6kUSD range which is getting seriously expensive for a headphone, but again will outperform 40kUSD speakers on several levels.

For the rest, I will post in the other thread...
arnaud

Has anyone compared the K-01 to the K-03 ?

Any updates on these two players?

Looking at a K-01 or a Luxman D-08. Tough to choose. Perhaps a Audio Note dac and transport combo?

Upgraded from SA-50 to K-03. Allowed CD player portion to burn-in for 30 days and it made a huge difference. Now burning-in the USB and Toslink stages.

Have compared single-ended to balanced XLR but cannot hear a differnece (AU-24e).

Could not afford the K-01 so did not audition.

The K-03 is one heavy S.O.B. You will not feel cheated.

Brucebraun, I currently own an Esoteric SA-50 and was thinking of upgrading to the K-03. Do you really think it’s worth the upgrade and much higher price? Please list all the improvements you noticed moving up to the K-03. Much appreciated. Thanks! Joe

Joe-

I believe you might be trying to compare apples and oranges, as they say. I would either call Esoteric or your Esoteric dealer if you have one. There is also another thread here talking about the K-03 with some feedback from several dealers that you might want to check out. Their comments pretty much echo what I was told by my contacts at Esoteric, FWIW. Good luck and let us know if you get the K-03!

Here's a link to that thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1301679798&&&/EMM-Labs-XDS1-vs-Esoteric-K-01

FWIW, TAS (Alan Taffel) says in the May/June issue of K-03 on redbook: "the K-03 sounds beautiful, delivers exceptional detail and spatial depth, and is tonally ravishing. On the other hand, it is missing the ultimate resolution, openness and freedom from digital edginess that makes today's reference gear so relaxing and engaging."

He says his Goldmund transport/dCS Debussy DAC have better resolution.

Mr. Taffel says the K-03 is much, much better on SACD and as a DAC.

the goldmund transport/dcs debussy combo can not play sacd.

and is of course very natural sounding combo.

So would anyone say the K01 handles poorly recorded popular-music redbook discs OK, reducing the digital glare and shout in vocals and the upper mids that I think is a central fault with many redbook CDs?

I like how SACDs (most of them) don't seem to suffer from this on good machines.

Thanks.

Nothing can make poorly recorded music sound good. Well recorded CD's sound absolutely superb on the Esoteric K01. I think many well reorded CD's sound just as good as SACD's on the K01.

Hi Matjet, thanks for the response. After many CD players, some players handle lesser-quality discs better than others, say with somehow detecting digital glare and recessing the upper mids a bit (BBC dip?).

I don't think coaxing detail and character out of vintage recordings in redbook while avoiding harshness and glare is impossible, and to me it's the holy grail of digital processing, and, like I said, some players do this well, some not.

At least that's how it sounds to me with the players I've owned. (I've had a lot of them and certainly the newer ones are better at this now). It's some sort of digital processing magic I confess I don't understand (maybe analog-stage also). I'm sure Alex could explain this somehow.

So, if I want to listen to the Supremes and have Diana Ross sound powerful and detailed but not painfully piercing (like vinyl can do to my ears, or SACD with other vintage recordings), would the K01 fill the bill better than other contenders?

Maybe... but I KNOW Alex's NWO-M 4.0 does this, as I hear it everyday. :-)

Thanks Fplanner. Good to know that the nwo can do this. By the way, those awesome VR7s you have sing with the most gracious upper mids and highs around.

Thank you for the compliment. I'm pretty happy. If I didn't have the NWO, I would probably get the K-01. Although I have yet to hear it, various friends whose opinions I trust implicitly have raved about it.

I just got my K01 and had the opportunity to compare with a K03 and my previous XO3SE. Even out of the box before I play my Isotek CD for a few days to do some breaking of the system...it is clear and hands down that the K01 is the best player of the group in so many areas. Interestingly the K03 was not as open and warm as my X03SE which came second during my blind test at home with a couple of audiophiles. I was quite impressed to see how good of a player is the X03SE...I will keep it for my second system. True HiFi has a price...the K01 is a clear example. Try it at your local dealer..you will then believe my words...hopefully you can compare the player with any other unit that they may have. I can easily predict which one you will pick.

Are you saying the K01 is a nice warmish player (on redbook)?
Have you tried it on some poorly mastered CDs?

Did anybody tried the digital volume control on k-01 or k-03 running directly to the amplifier, it is intersting how does it compare with pre-ampifer in place. Thanks you.

I would like to attempt to answer the question posted by Rgs92. I believe that a good audio component should not only be transparent and accurate but also capable of providing a complete representation of the music recorded (redbook or SACD); so we will be provided with a "warm" sound which is different from "coloration". The K03 fails to achieve that while the X03SE does it but not as detailed as the K01. If you do a blind test to remove as much bias as possible (that you may have acquired based on previous impressions or because you like some line of products) and compare these 3 players while listening Ana Caram (Rio after Dark Album - 4th track) you very likely agree and understand my statement. Poorly mastered CD's sound like they are: " poor", not improved. Tks. Cat007

Hey Cat007, thanks for that very insightful answer that really answered my question well. Good writing! Best to you.

Anybody compared the Esoteric K-01 to the Burmester 089 yet ? Feedback would be appreciated.

I listened to K-01 extensively at RMAF 2011... While it is rather difficult for me to contrast K-01 with my own X-01 Limited, without having both in the same system, K-01 was A/B/C/Ded against several lower end Esoteric players in the suite, with audible results commensurate with a good fraction of the respective price differences.

The benefit of controlling K-01 through a G-0Rb clock was not at all a subtle affair... The audible result was rather obvious to me, as well as to all listeners I queried on the subject.

I left RMAF intrigued enough that I intend to audition K-01 in my own system one way or another before too long.

Harv, it was absolutely fabulous finally meeting you!

G.

Guido - it was my pleasure to finally meet you as well!

I also spent a fair amount of time listening to the K-01 at RMAF and came away very impressed, as I had a hunch I might. The ability to nuance the sound with the different filters as well as the ability to play SACD in native DSD were 2 areas that my current NWO-M does not possess. The ability to be able to select these as needed or desired is a good selling point, IMHO. I am now more curious how the K-01 will sound in my system, although not to the point of trying it yet. Going from a single box solution back to 2 boxes doesn't feel like "simplifying" to me, even though I still have my Esoteric rubidium clock and digital cabling. :-)

Hi Harv, yes the ability of K-01 to tune effectively the sound to a user's preference via oversampling options and filters was very impressive. I did preferred FIR1 and FIR2, while Esoteric staff seemed to be fonder of the Slo2 filter.

G.

Guidocorona,
I have owned an Esoteric K01 for at least 6 months. It is the best cd/sacd player I have ever heard, just spectacular. I tried a G-orb with it for atleast 3 weeks, with hours of testing. The G-orb does not improve the sound of the K-01, period. It will probably improve the sound of a 2 unit player (po3/do3 or p01/d01) due to synchronization of transport and DAC, but it doesn't improve a single box unit (K01).

Very interesting Matjet.... In the Esoteric suite it seemed that the G-0Rb clock was making a significant difference.... Seemed to be the consensus.... Tim Crable, visitors, myself... I wonder what else may have been going on that caused the general opinion in the suite, short of mass histeria? Have you tried various clock modes and settings?

By the way, what combination of oversampling and filter settings do you prefer on K-01, and why?

Have you tried the K-01 directly into amp? Opinions?

G.

Matjet,

very interesting, I have been holding off getting this unit for the specific reasons Guidocorona mentions.

So I look forward to more details.

How do you find the unit for noise, disc spinning?

Any noise?

Other models including their top unit from first hand experience in my own set-up I could hear such specially on silent passages which was distracting to me and stopped my purchase.

I have the K-01 and it is a superb sounding machine. It is a big step up from the X-03SE, which I still consider a great player, and which deservedly attracted glowing reviews. I have had a few high end players in my system, and I think the K-01 excels in presenting music with exquisite detail that sounds natural and does not fatigue, and lays out a magical soundstage. Vocals are sublime. It needs
time to run in but fresh out of the box, you already know it is something special.
I think the TAS choice of the S_Dly1 filter on their K-03 review was a mistake, if the K-01 is anything to go by. To my ears the Fir1 or Fir2 (not certain yet but think Fir1) sound better. I feel the S_Dly1 filter seems to flatten out the music a little and rob it of a little air, but it is subtle.
Definitely use the 2x upsampling.