Robert wrote, "In closing: One of our engineers examined your ‘Isolation Springs’ and noted there is a “shear component” as well as a “compression component” with a single metal conduit providing a “primary mechanical grounding conductor” which is very similar to our technical approach. Are you absolutely sure you products are actually isolating and not transferring resonance?" Strange he should ask since just about everyone and his brother knows that mass on spring isolation devices work by attenuating the transmission of seismic vibrations according to a simple mathematical formula. Obviously the isolation effectiveness is a function of the resonant frequency of the iso system and technique in setting up the iso device as I’ve already alluded to. Thus, even advanced iso devices allow some vibration up into the component. Duh! Nobody ever claimed these iso devices are perfect, or that there is perfect isolation. However, by minimizing resonant frequency of the device, maximizing the degrees of freedom one can obtain very good results. Spring based systems are well documented and are a proven technology for vibration isolation. One need look no further than the LIGO project to detect gravity waves to see just how well (talk about understatement) springs do in real science experiments. And by employing tricks of the trade, you know, tricks like cryogenically treating the springs, one can do very well. That’s why my spring based systems have been and are in some of best systems extant. In closing let me turn your opening snarky comment around and ask you, don’t you think you and your engineer could use a little research into vibration isolation? have a nice day geoff kait machina dynamica advanced audio conceits |
Mr. Kait,
I believe you should do more research on vibration specifically in the studies of sound applications and musical instruments. In every recording studio and concert venue where I engineered sound, anti-vibration designs provided a deader (not quieter) listening space which always fatigued me. The facilities with hard surfaces always presented a live dynamic outcome when mixing or listening and that ‘live vibrant energy’ kept me totally responsive through extremely long sessions.
Vibration is not an enemy when related to sound and musical reproduction; it is a ‘constant’, very similar to how the human ear works.
Vibration contains all the dynamics and harmonic structures listeners seek to hear. There are properties, a phenomenon, formed from vibration that build and layer on “all” vibrating surfaces. These heavier amplitudes of energy forms resonance and propagates on “all” smooth surfaces.
If you research Coulomb’s Law and applied it to the recording sciences and sound, it might lead to a greater understanding.
What do we seek as listeners - live dynamics or dead harmonics?
You stated: And actually, now that I think about it there are even other cones and pointed things that are better than Audiopoints, such as for example Golden Sound's NASA grade ceramic Super DH cones. Things have changed quite a bit since thirty years ago; I think it’s fair to say.
Your background and education is in aerospace so we are certain some bias exists in that statement but just to be fair, you're listening assessment of Audio Points™ is meaningless when comparing products that cost tens ($$) of dollars to others costing in the hundreds of dollars ($$$). We are much more in favor of comparing devices of the same financial investment values. Our cost comparison product at this level would be a fourteen pound mechanical grounding plane we call the Sistrum Apprentice Platform™. We are extremely confident should you ever wish to compare ours to theirs. The differences in performance are measurable, highly audible and will sound much livelier.
Agreed, a lot has changed in the past thirty years. The Audio Point still remains an Industry benchmark for very affordable vibration management yet has evolved into a much higher standard of performance when applying greater mass, geometry and physics hence the family of Sistrum Platforms.
You stated: While you fellows have actually done, by dismissing vibration isolation, is obtain what we refer to as a local maximum.
Not sure who you are referring to as “we” in your statement. Is it you and who else? I am sure the majority of listeners and readership does not understand the term “local maximum” so here is a brief definition provided by Wikipedia:
‘In mathematical analysis, the maxima and minima (the respective plurals of maximum and minimum) of a function, known collectively asextrema (the plural of extremum), are the largest and smallest value of the function, either within a given range (the local or relative extrema) or on the entire domain of a function’...
Please make your point more clear as to what it is we have actually done or accomplished?
In closing: One of our engineers examined your ‘Isolation Springs’ and noted there is a “shear component” as well as a “compression component” with a single metal conduit providing a “primary mechanical grounding conductor” which is very similar to our technical approach. Are you absolutely sure you products are actually isolating and not transferring resonance?
Once again, our understanding of resonance management does “NOT” dismiss the theories behind “vibration isolation”. We just disagree on the philosophy and principles behind isolating (storing) resonant energy within the component, loudspeaker or musical instrument without a mechanical means providing an exit pathway for the heavier amplitudes of detrimental resonance. Our ears do not listen to electron microscopes.
Robert Star Sound
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What the SNL heck trolling is Geoff talking about now LOL! I believe geoff is confusing michael green audio with starsound. I can't speak for Starsound but I saw nothing above that resembles michael green audio. At the same time michael green's tuneland (the techno-zone) is enjoying all the new visitors reading our pages. You guys are more than welcome to become a part of the tuning revolution (as TAS calls us). |
oleschool 381 posts 09-09-2016 5:37pm I,m not a pro geoff ,all i know is they made a marked improvemnent in my setup (guitars ya i know my way around the 100 plus i have owned after 35 yrs ).I,m sure there are better or newer setups i cannot respond because i use the audiopoints.Regardless of anyones comments pro or con.I personnally used them first under my spkrs-tighter bass and better soundstage openess, under my sub -massive change in performance. Under my tt -i got better low end and a more open sound ,and also they look cool under it lol. they are now under every piece of gear i have including my rack and power supply .I am a fan personnally thats all i can say .No more no less ,they improved "MY" sound." Oleschool, just in case I wasn’t clear, I am not disputing your results with the Audiopoints. Actually, I haven’t heard anyone make comments con, as you suggest. I was using Audiopoints 25 years ago. Furthermore, unlike the claims of both Mike and Robert, you know, the claims how Audiopoints work, I.e., by removing micro vibration from the component, vibration produced by motors, transformers, CD transport mechanisms, I trust I’m not putting words in their mouths, strongly suggests that the vibration in the component IS A PROBLEM, no? I.e., that vibration degrades the sound. Thus, allowing vibrations to roam free in the system or the room is probably not a wise strategy. Therefore, in light of the evidence that vibration, micro and macro, is not something to just slough off or ignore, then, gentle readers, you must agree that any vibration, regardless of source is a problem, no? With the Audiopoints, the seismic type vibration is free to come up into the system and degrade the sound. I don’t think anyone is prepared to claim Audiopoints stifle seismic vibrations. also, let me remind everyone that I have always proposed a combination of very hard cones under the component WITH vibration isolation. I actually propose cones under the component and under the vibration isolation device itself, since in my world it’s necessary to allow all vibrations to exit the iso system as rapidly as possible. And for Mikes info, Mike who is so fond of the expression "walk the walk," I am actually currently using a combination of vibration isolation and cones in my portable Walkman set up. Thus, I allow micro vibrations to EXIT the system rapidly AND disallow seismic vibrations getting up into the component. I am also not shy about using a smidgen of viscoelastic material just in case some micro vibrations have somehow escaped my elaborate trap. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. Hel-loo! Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica vibration isolation and resonance control |
Hi oleschool Just got done with my late night listening and saw your reply so thought I would give a shout before I called it a day. Went up to check out Paul's website. "The Journey Begins" is a great page! What an experience for you to be friends with Paul, especially with you being a player yourself. Life is good! Love the Santa Rosa area and the music Vibe all over that place. Good memories! |
Hi oleschool Don't worry about Geoff, he hasn't owned an in-room stereo system going on 10 years now according to him. Kind of hard to be credible on audio topics when he doesn't even practice the hobby. Pretty cool that you get to go from playing your guitars to playing your music collection. Many of my clients are musicians. In some of my stereo stores I would build a tunable listening room on one side and a recording studio on the other. Nothing like comparing apples to apples. have fun Michael Green Audio |
I,m not a pro geoff ,all i know is they made a marked improvemnent in my setup (guitars ya i know my way around the 100 plus i have owned after 35 yrs ).I,m sure there are better or newer setups i cannot respond because i use the audiopoints.Regardless of anyones comments pro or con.I personnally used them first under my spkrs-tighter bass and better soundstage openess, under my sub -massive change in performance. Under my tt -i got better low end and a more open sound ,and also they look cool under it lol. they are now under every piece of gear i have including my rack and power supply .I am a fan personnally thats all i can say .No more no less ,they improved "MY" sound . and yes i remember the day tip toes came out also and the old sorbathene audioquest feet i was there in the mix back then,I was a saleman in the 80-90s There will always be something newer and better and also alot of hype surrounding it . thinking back i miss my vpi brick :) |
oleschool 365 posts 09-09-2016 3:59pm Like i said before the proofs in the pudding ... I am a fan of let it vibrate it has made a noticeable difference for the better i run all audiopoints top to bottom. well, actually proof sometimes in not in the pudding. I’ve had Audiopoints myself, quite some time ago, as I was one of Mike Green’s first customers. While I like the effects of Audiopoints, real vibration isolation is better in every way. And actually, now that I think about it there are even other cones and pointed things that are better than Audiopoints, such as for example Golden Sound's NASA grade ceramic Super DH cones. Things have changed quite a bit since thirty years ago, I think it’s fair to say. Vibration Isolation and resonance control is one area that has changed considerably, you know, ever since the introduction of the Vibraplane - twenty years ago. Time flies when you’re having fun. Cough, cough. While you fellows have actually done, by dismissing vibration isolation, is obtain what we refer to as a local maximum. Cheers, Geoff Kait |
Somehow I’m thinking that people can read for themselves if they wish and come to their own conclusions. I’m not sure their conclusions though will be any different from the one being established here. It seems to me that Robert’s invite to Geoff to visit with him would be the right way to show the differences or commonalities between Geoff’s thoughts and Robert’s. also If Geoff was sincere about tuning concepts he would be coming over to Michael Green’s TuneLand instead of coming to other forums pretending to represent what MG, or anyone else as far as that goes, is actually saying and more importantly doing. The door is always open for those who wish to explore concepts and designs, but when forums reduce talks to dumbing down talk only, without the actual doing, the whole hobby is reduced to dumbing down. As Robert invites Geoff to explore for himself so do we at Michael Green Audio. Talk is talk and walk is walk. Michael Green Audio |
Mike Green wrote, "part 2, another topic really but because my name was mentioned Part two of my post is about Geoff Kait. Geoff has a Sony Walkman Cassette player with earbuds and spends his time trolling audio forums for the sake of getting nothing more than a rise out of folks. It’s entertaining if you are a little on the warped side, but as is often recommended best to just report geoff and let your mods take care of things." actually, one reason I was interested in a portable battery powered system was Mike Green’s insistence that low mass systems are inherently better than high mass systems. So, in reality my portable walkman with Ultralight headphones subscribes to Mike Green’s concept. Anyone not see the irony that he should attack my low mass system? Oh, maybe he means only HIS low mass systems... Mike Green also wrote, "For the record, I have never had discussions with geoff kait and was only a victim of his trolling on Stereophile. We could have had conversations if he was legitimate but many members pressed him only to come to the same conclusions. This forum will no doubt head down the same path if trolling is allowed. The Stereophile forum which once was alive is a graveyard now sadly do to trolling. nuff said" If you like I’ll count the discussions we had together on Stereophile. Three years of them. Hel-loo! The main point of contention is that you eschew damping and vibration isolation, instead preferring to allow the vibrations to be free to move wherever they wish. Did I state your position correctly? geoff kait machina Dynamica |
I had to go do some listening for a client so the above post is part one, the MG-Bobby story. If your confused, maybe that’s a good thing cause the stories that have been brewed up about that time are pretty stupid. Bottom line is Bobby worked for me then wanted to do his own thing after his time with RoomTune came to an end. Hopefully that clears up the whole Audiopoint thing, as well as why Starsound might seem somewhat like the MGA story. There are other audio companies that were born from the RoomTune MGA revolution who have their own stories as well, no biggie. It's a fact that most of the companies you see today are usually spin offs in some way or another. No harm in that. I enjoyed being one of the pioneers as well as being a part of other creative ventures. part 2, another topic really but because my name was mentioned Part two of my post is about Geoff Kait. Geoff has a Sony Walkman Cassette player with earbuds and spends his time trolling audio forums for the sake of getting nothing more than a rise out of folks. It’s entertaining if you are a little on the warped side, but as is often recommended best to just report geoff and let your mods take care of things. For the record, I have never had discussions with geoff kait and was only a victim of his trolling on Stereophile. We could have had conversations if he was legitimate but many members pressed him only to come to the same conclusions. This forum will no doubt head down the same path if trolling is allowed. The Stereophile forum which once was alive is a graveyard now sadly do to trolling. nuff said Lastly As I revisited this forum the last two days I see a lot of members asking questions that are not only down my alley, but I specialize in along with as I said earlier what happened to MG. Let me help by saying, if your interested in what I do or why, you should really come to our site and our forum and ask instead of going to other forums and becoming part of high end audio’s National Enquirer. The reason why this industry didn’t see me for a while was because of what I talked about before, the market crash. But the main reason was because I couldn’t stand the audio myth makers standing on every corner telling you your system sucks and why without ever knowing you or your sound. I got tired (bored really) seeing an industry with so much potential choosing to go down paths that had nothing to do with getting good sound. I wasn't alone! Getting great sound isn’t really that hard and those who can’t get it always seem to get stuck in that revolving door of opinions. It’s a spin and a game that has caused many music lovers to pack their bags and leave. I know because many of them get ahold of us and start from scratch. Those folks your rarely going to see on yours or any other forum. They want nothing to do with the spins and are now happily focused on their music collections, great sound and life. So why am I here? I’m simply stopping by to let people know MGA/RoomTune is still around and having a blast. I saw some of the stories about me and us on threads here and decided to give a shout out to those folks thinking about tuning and to invite others to come see what tuning is about. I’m not going to hang out but might stop by from time to time if it’s ok. so that’s it Have a great weekend and take advantage of this great hobby! |
Bobby says "No comment on Mike Green." Charley and I called Bobby (Robert) Mr. Grump. You know sometimes you have to step away and see where people land. For myself, I'm a happy listener and always have been. This particular part of the music biz has more than its share of peculiar theories, myths, personalities and home brews. A lot of folks over the last several years have asked about me or made up their own versions. Well facts are facts, and the fact is RoomTune sold in 37 countries and here in the states had 650 dealers. We were used in more reviews than almost any high end audio specialty company between 90-97 in the industry. We also supplied more free product to the trade shows (and loved it) than anyone. Fact is when the mom & pop audio stores shut down it was something that shook the hobby forever. Many great companies went under and some of the rats started feeding off of the other rats. Fact is I'm happy for Bobby. Even though he and I look at life through different glasses and disagree on some past blurred lines, he and his friends have built a pretty cool gig. history Robert was a dealer of mine before he started his current company and worked for me for a time. We shared in one idea and one product, a cone. The fact is, the Audiopoint was designed around 1990 by a guy (Brent) who was doing business as AMD (audio machine & design). I liked the sound of that cone and began marketing it. In reviews you will find it was called Michael Green's Audiopoints. Of course we wanted to correct this but I also wanted a different design as the cone at that time was still going through some growing pains sound wise. I think Bobby came on board with RoomTune in the mid to late 90's and when he left MGA/RoomTune took on Audiopoints for his own. As far as the "rats" comment, people need to decide for themselves how things in a small industry, like this one, evolves from one idea to the next and how designs and designers move on to different adventures as well as the listeners who follow them. Maybe it's not rats as much as it is mice, not sure if they want to share their cheese or keep it to themselves. The only way to find out is in the privacy of your own private concert hall called your listening room. as my friend says "enjoy the music" |
To the OP's post, Yes, it all depends upon your room /house construction. Whether or not your tt is floor/wall mounted. Stillpoints are designed to specifically address micro vibrations. Especially with the Minis. These micro vibrations are of the sort that come from internal transformers and the like. |
Hey agear i play guitar ! now thats is annoying lol ( why do you need 20 plus guitars ?? That ones is all scratched up and old lol) ... Pick up a trumpet and start learning it in the living room your lady will love your system.. Lol Oleschool, I have two small children (4 1/2 years and 19 months). Hannah already has as guitar and Julia has access to cymbals, drums, etc. You can see pics on one of my system threads......:) |
Agear: "The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;) I have a good sense of humor, and you provide plenty of unintended comic relief Geoff.... |
Agear: "The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;) Would it be safe to assume (no pun intended) since you apparently have no sense of humor you’re not a proctologist? |
I am a lucky guy ;( No Kids ) very good WAF, ( told her this was my retirement system ) her response "she doesn't believe me"Priceless. Sounds like my wife (she cannot stand the hobby but loves music). You should create a system thread so you can document your 45 yr journey. What tts do you own? I have been eyeing the Palmer out of the UK..... |
As far as I can tell the most math doctors need is addition, you know, for adding up the bill. I, by comparison, went all the way.The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;) |
audiopoint and agear, appreciate both of your responses. Some background ; chasing the "Grail" for 45yrs. Current system- Avalon Opus, Spectral 30SV, Spectral DMA 400 mono's, MIT Oracle ICs, MIT Oracle Speaker cables, MIT Oracle PCs, MIT power conditioners, Dedicated room and power. Room is treated w/ tube traps and diffussers. After giving digital a chance for 25yrs ; I have gone totally Vinyl. (2) TTs, Pass Xono SS phono, Manley Steelhead Tube phono. I am aware of the points both of you made. I am a lucky guy ;( No Kids ) very good WAF, ( told her this was my retirement system ) her response "she doesn't believe me" Still I look at some Very Nice Systems on the Forums ; Stacked between the speakers. I too struggled w/apartments,condos etc.At Axpona this past April , I visited not all but a lot of rooms (understand Show Conditions). Heard a lot of so-so sound. The CAT/ Martin room was best of show for Me. JV criticized it a bit. I say would have been his best of show, if everything had NOT been stacked between the speakers. Digital or Vinyl we know everything counts !!!!! Just wish guys / gals would give themselves 1/2 chance. Out of the room or as far away from speakers as practical. You can spend more $ on music or better gear instead of racks, spikes etc. etc. Also the big screens, Ugh! I done for now, Happy Listening, Wish All the Best to all on this Journey, never give up! |
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What's this, revenge of the nerds PT. 2? This is audio after all. Is that a revelation? I have a near photographic memory (like my father and his father and brothers...an interesting aside) and can recycle meaningless crap like that. Here is another: geoffkaitHere it is again: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/5-thd-to-000-thd-sound/post?postid=1341991 and again: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-direction-should-hi-fi-tune-fuse-be-installed and again: http://www.stereophile.com/content/morphic-resonance-interview-rupert-sheldrake-scientific-american and again: http://www.stereophile.com/content/about-tweaks-and-snake-oil I think a more apropos take on Einstein's ditty and one that is more relevant to the current state of audio is: "NO EDUCATION CAN WITHSTAND THE OPIUM OF QUANTUM PHYSICS WHEN PIMPED OUT IN THE NAME OF AUDIO." |
There are a LOT of racks, cones , spikes, pods etc. value oriented to ultra expensive. My Avalon speakers now rest on Stillpoint ultras instead of original spikes ; ( Yes, Improved the sound) my amps rest on Black Diamond Racing "The Shelf" using the Avalon spikes (Yes, Improved the sound) The rest of my system is not in my sound room ( around the corner ) Preamp to Amps 25' pr. of ICs. ( Yes, Improved the sound ) The only changes that I intend to make are ; Stillpoint ultras to replace Avalon spikes under amps and change 25'pr of single ended ICs to Balanced. I continue to look at all the Virtual Systems with gear stacked Between the Speakers and I just Think to myself; Stop the madness ! I only play Vinyl now ; but if you want to stop vibration to your components ; Get them OUT of the room!!!!I have used Stillpoints (gen I), Equarack footers, Herbie's, Sound Anchor, Adona, etc, etc. I do agree with you about getting equipment out of the equation in some capacity (or at least limiting the amount of crap between the speakers....avoid building a tower...keep it low, etc, etc). However, for me personally, the room and speakers are #1 and 2 in terms of energy management. The is the holy grail. A 25 ft run of Oracle MA-Xs will cost you dearly! |
Hello nkonor,
It is often believed that equipment positioned outside the loudspeaker environment is not subject to vibration. You will improve the sound of the system by using two rooms as the electronics package is ‘not’ subjected to the majority of airborne resonance generated from the speakers, walls, floor and ceiling however all electronic equipment generates vibrations that forms detrimental resonance.
As you may know, vibrating parts such as transformers, power supplies, and voltage rectifiers along with the use of alternating current vibrates and generates electric and electromechanical resonance that builds and clogs all signal pathways. Even cables including the ones connecting the speaker system are also a conduit where resonance forms propagates and travels to and through all parts of the system.
It is impossible to eliminate vibration in a musical environment. Resonance will form regardless of any anti-vibration or pro-vibration products available in industry today. All one can do is manage it and this is where the confusion, differences in opinions, real world “audio” arguments and products become relevant to the listening experience.
The two room system is a very solid approach if you have the space. Keep working towards managing your electronics package as it will always pay dividends.
On a more positive note – “Without vibration there is no music”.
Robert Star Sound |
Snear, better work on your material. It's not that funny. I'm here to be entertained. So entertain me. You got zinged Geoff. Its okay. You yourself lack originality (and self-insight) as you have used that same tired line on other threads: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/machina-dynamica-mini-isolators |
There are a LOT of racks, cones , spikes, pods etc. value oriented to ultra expensive. My Avalon speakers now rest on Stillpoint ultras instead of original spikes ; ( Yes, Improved the sound) my amps rest on Black Diamond Racing "The Shelf" using the Avalon spikes (Yes, Improved the sound) The rest of my system is not in my sound room ( around the corner ) Preamp to Amps 25' pr. of ICs. ( Yes, Improved the sound ) The only changes that I intend to make are ; Stillpoint ultras to replace Avalon spikes under amps and change 25'pr of single ended ICs to Balanced. I continue to look at all the Virtual Systems with gear stacked Between the Speakers and I just Think to myself; Stop the madness ! I only play Vinyl now ; but if you want to stop vibration to your components ; Get them OUT of the room!!!! |
No, this is how the big boys do it: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjS0Z7V97fOAhVF6CYKHf13BcUQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.machinadynamica.com%2Fmachina25.htm&bvm=bv.129422649,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNFcGUiEGVQDIMBJYi5hZGEZpyORNQ&ust=1470955834214660 |
oleschool 221 posts 08-09-2016 4:07pm I personally have decide to rebuild my entire house on springs, create my own fusion generator, uv bubble dome the entire place, control atmosphere to a perfect temp and humidity.Then allow my audio room to float on a magnetic system with solid 24" thick lead walls... Good for you! Now you’re duplicated what the big boys do, like the high end atomic physics labs, even the Air Force Satellite Control facility, the Blue Cube. It’s actually quite efficacious to construct multiple stages of isolation as long as you remember to separate their resonant frequencies sufficiently. I constructed a three stage version of my erstwhile Nirvana Platform, place a penny on the top plate and the whole contraption undulates and sways up and down and to the side and all around at a frequency of around 0.5 Hz like a drunken belly dancer. |
Once again ,I say if it works use it.Although in all apps it may not. Proof is in the pudding! ... Thats why an open forum is key in my opinion of course there will always be positive ,negative and comical comments. I personnally have decide to rebuild my entire house on springs, create my own fusion generator, uv bubble dome the entire place, control atmosphere to a perfect temp and humidity.Then allow my audio room to float on a magnetic system with solid 24" thick lead walls.Then i will feel comfortable hooking up that bose wave system :) .... |
