emt 950, technics sp10 - direct drive sound

I never listened the EMT 950 but one of my hi-fi friends own a EMT 948 and it sounds exactly like my lightly modded Technics SL1210 MKII .. same prat same way to sound

Curio,
you bold statement is very soothing for all us Technics sl-1200mk2 owners :)

Ciao Siniy,

I didn't want to shock someone here with a "bold statement" I'm not that kinda audiophile or person!
We have just compared my lightly modified SL1210 MKII with the EMT 948 of Giuseppe one of our audiophile friends
Telling the truth no one in our group thoughts a 500 euro humble SL1210 could sound like a mint 5000 euro EMT 948
But the "ugly duckling" scored the same sound.
Obviously my SL1210 received a very fine tuning with a MintLP tractor while I don't think Giuseppe own a MintLP for his EMT.
As many here know .. the MintLP tractor improves to stellar level the stock SL1200 arm - cartridge alignement and so the sound consequent.
Probably the great result has to be ascribed at the perfect cartridge alignement more than the normal quality of a humble SL12xx

Btw .. God save MintLP and SL1200 :-)

Curio, Same tonearm and cartridge on the SL1210 and the EMT 948?

Same cartridge (Denon DL103R) but stock arm on my SL1210 MKII and EMT stock arm on the 948

I had a Technics sl-1210 and you can also hear it on youtube. I have an EMT 950, and this too can be heard on the net: http://www.shawsounds.com/restoration
Anybody who thinks an EMT sounds even close to technics (although I haven't heard the sp-10 III) has no idea what he is talking about.

Taviran,
the SL-1200Mk2 is much better. I hear that signature MC ringing in EMT sample. Don't know if it is a platter or the cartridge itself. The ringing has standard Moving Coil cartridge glare pattern, but I heard the same on other turntable manufacturers with MM cartridge. BTW, I listened in headphones. I tend to blame the cartridge first and I can conclude that this EMT cartridge is no better then all MC Ortofons with aluminum cantilevers.

Dear Curio: As you point out the cartridge alignment was different for those two set-up ( big difference ) but not only that two different tonearms too and two same cartridges ( that believe me are a little different between them. ) and I can asume two different platter TT mat.

IMHO all those " different " everything preclude a precise, absolute and " honest /fair " comparison for either TT and makes comments on it useless at least for Lohan who between other things are asking about/against the SP-10.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Lohan: From the point of view of quality performance on DD TTs IMHO I think that some models like the ones you name it are very good performers along other units out there.
I can say that the Technics SP-10 ( either MK2 or 3 ), Denon DP-80/75/100, EMT 950 ( there are other EMT models. ), Yamaha's, Kenwood, Rockport, Monaco and the like are a very good alternative as is too very good alternative the BD systems. Btw, very difficult to say which is better, IMHO I like to think on it like a " different " alternatives " where each one has its own trade-offs.

Now, what makes a difference between the quality performance in those DD units including the ones you ask are not only the tonearm/cartridge combination but the plynth ( in the case of SP-10s different plinth different performance even in my cas I don't use a plinth. ), Mat and how deal the TT against its own and outside vibrations/resonances.

I think that every single DD owner ( any model ) has its own ( different ) opinion that is person/system dependent.

Try to find other EMT owners to find out how to achieve the best on an EMT TT, IMHO I think that could be the best you can make because a comparison against other no EMT TT's are useless when your unit is not even " running ".

I think that you have to give time to your EMT " put on target " work then the set-up with your tonearm/cartridge choose then understand what is happening then try to enjoy it and latter to think if the SP-10 or other DD could beat it in your own environment: well at least this is what I will make it in your place.

Good luck with your EMT task.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Just checking in to see how your EMT950 restoration went and whether a new thread has been started on the subject elsewhere. I just found this thread by accident, but all things EMT are of great interest to me. I own a 950 and a 930st (incidentally, I also have an SP10mkII, but to me the main interest here is the EMT side of the discussion, and not the comparisons to other brands). I have done some restoration work on my 950, with some (remote) help from Hans-Michael, and perhaps some of my experience could be of interest to others. I have some pictures I took during the process as well.

Well - this is my Taj Mahal - and it's a bit like the black one that was not built.

Simply put - I got an emt 929 arm, and then I got the iron plinth stripped.

GEtting the plinth stripped is a BAD BAD BAD move. what happened was becasue it is cast iron - as soon as it is was stripped the surface - by reason of being in a slightly moist atmosphere at the strippers - oxidised on the surface.

I have located an iron worker specialist - and they reckon they'll be able to strip and put on an undercoat - the problem with this is that they are on leave until August!

I am currently in the process of a house move - so it's all a bit tedious.

My wife, in her infinite wisdom chucked away some of my dismantling notes - I must say they were like hyrogliphics - but I am a bit annoyed, because i may well have to make a call to hans fabritius while i carry out the works.

So all is not well.

But I am very hopeful, becasue hans fabritius did sort out the electrics - so onwards and upwards.

In addition to this I am gonna have sufficient house space soon!

Well - I said I will do an update!
After getting the paint stripped off, it formed a fine layer of rust. I have just applied some liberon rust remover, and with some elbow grease - dremel and a wire brush - it is now showing the steely bare metal.

At long-last i have sent my EMT to Deutsche Studiotechnik fora full refurb

 

@lohanimal Excellent, the pursuit of new experiences has prevailed, it will be good to receive your report following the assessments undertaken of it in use.

In the time between the initial post and the new reveal, have you acquired any other TT/TT's to evaluate the refurbed EMT 950 against.  

@pindac 

I've been exceptionally naughty:

Townshend Elite Rock (now heavily modified

JVC QL10 (2 in fact because one got trashed by USELESS PARCEL SERVICES)

Sony TTS 8000

Beeogram 4002

Thing is the EMT restoration creates a tweak free toy. You can fiddle with all the others - let's face it us nerds are inveterate tinkerers who love to play with our toys

I spoke to Benjamin who now holds the reins at Dutsch Studiotechnik and he said he'd do a mini interview with me.He is very insistent on keeping the original EMT chain ie - TSD 15 - 929 arm - the in-built phono stage.

@dkarmeli whose opinion I highly value very much concurs with the EMT chain save the phono stage - I am led to believe that quite a few people aren't huge fans on the inbuilt phono stage. I'm going to ask for two options:

1. the option to plug in my own phono cable in order to bypass the stage

2. changing the Leno plugs to standard balanced plugs.

I must say i am dreading how much this is gonna cost me. In fact I think I am going to sell my spare QL10

Why not focus the expenditure on the TT itself. Get it up to as new. buy a couple of arm boards.

You can use any arm/phono with it, you can always get the EMT arm/phono later.

Do you have the wide body 950 ( controls to the side )  or standard 950 ?

 

@lohanimal I have been instrumental in having a rethink attended to for the TTS 8000 Spindle Bearing Bushes.

I have donated a TTS 8000 to support the investigations undertaken and enable dimensions to be taken for New Bush Sleeves to be used within the Bearing Housing.

These New Parts are made from Torlon.

A New Sump Plug is also produced for the Base of the Housing/Pressed Metal Bowl, that has a machining that enables a selection of Thrust Pads to be used, in my case Torlon again.

Another TTS 8000 Owner who has adopted these same methods, as well as extend on them, has also discovered a simple method to retain lubricant in the Pressed Metal Bowl. This has been in constant use with an oil lubricant since the method was discovered with no leaching of a thin lubricant occurring.

I have a selection of Bushes at hand, produced to suit one of my owned TTS 800's Bearing Housing Inner Wall and Spindle Diameters.

The Bushes when seated in the housing will require a Final Hand Ream with a Reamer Tool. 

If you would like to try this out let me know, I have a demonstration Instructional on fitting the Bushes from the Engineer who produced the Bushes, this can be sent to your email.

If satisfied with the info' on fitting and the interest still remains, I can send on a few Bushes to yourself.

What has been learnt through individual taking on this modification, is that in one case the Interference Fit Ball at the base of the Spindle had been discovered with a noticeable scribing to the surface. It is a reasonable easy fix and is worth checking for when the part is in hand. I have seen this condition reported on over the years on bearings being serviced on Long-Term usage TT's, it is aways worth a check, or request for a check, when a Bearing is being stripped down.    

    

I use EMT948 which has the same built in phonosatge.

The internal phonostage is guts OK. It sound very neutral but rough and flat. Any decent external phonostage will be better. EMT DD turntable have much more potential that their built in phonostages.  

I use the EMT 929 tonearm and TSD15 SFL and SPH carriages. I don't have experience with adapting not EMT tonearms.  

Regards,

Alex.

@pindac 

I need to check out how this is all done. How do you press the bearing - is it a high pressure fit?

Have you done before and after Sn measurements? I recall having a very good conversation with the late great Max Townshend last year about bearings and he said that people wrongly get fixated with the hardness of bearings - that's why, when signals excite them (as per a record player) they can/do cause high frequency sibilance. As such tungsten carbide and steel balls can/do sound better than ceramic balls.

@alexberger thanks - you are yet another person to say the original phono stage is a bit meh. I have two very good phono stages - as such i think i will get the plug option. No doubt the engineer will say it's heresy but there again EMT themselves make a very high end phono stage.

@lohanimal I can assure you all evaluations reporting on improvements to be had, are subjective only, but in some cases on other Vintage TT Models.

I know individuals who have used a Stethoscope to compare the noise levels between Delrin Bushes and Delrin Thrust Pad, used in place of a Sintered Bronze Bush and Original Thrust Pad.

From discussions with others who have thought through the redesign of the inner of the Spindle Bearing Housing, I have been informed that if an Hydrodynamic Condition is present within the Housing the noise levels produced, will be different to separate, between most materials that are selected. I have even been informed of info' that has shown this from the Heyday of TT Production.   

The goal is to maintain the Hydrodynamic condition, which in many designs is not achievable, hence the Thermoplastics machined to a much-improved tolerance than an off the shelf Metal Bush Part, is an improved interface when Hydrodynamic Conditions are not able to be maintained.

Pindac, can you define “hydrodynamic conditions”, as you use the term? Are you referring to maintenance of a thin layer of lubricant between spindle and bushing or ball? Thanks.

The condition where parts that able to have a Metal/Metal contact is reduced substantially, even avoided, by the inclusion of a lubrication that is able to function as a separator with a film of Oil suspended in the spacing between the Spindle and Sacrificial Parts.

When a Steel Ball is used and is capable of coming into contact with the Spindle it is desirable to have these separated.

As stated previously Scoring has been discovered on a Ball belonging to various Turntable Designs, I know of one on the TTS 8000, and reports belonging to Idler Drives, and I have also seen VAS NY Inc having shown a scribed ball on a TT overhaul he was undertaking. 

My own observations have also seen gold micro dust deposited within the Spindle Housing belong to a Vintage DD TT. The Sintered Bronze Bush was suspected to have been worn, but the dust believed to be present resulting from the Sacrificial Material being removed through abrasion was more than was expected to be found. I know I am not alone in having this condition, but one of the 'not too many' that have investigated the condition of the internals of a Vintage TT Bearing Housing.

Numerous designs of TT have failed to achieve a method that ensures a long-term lubrication is maintained. There are numerous TT's from a particular period that would be a Better TT, if the basic needs of the Bearing Assembly were shown a special care for the servicing.

As Hydrodynamic Lubrication is very difficult to achieve in the long-term a regular servicing is a measure to keep things in good order.

A Metal/Non-Metal interface is seemingly working in the favour of the Bearing when an ideal lubrication condition cannot be maintained, it appears to be the better experience when compared to the older used design.

Hi @pindac 

I certainly need to look at thee mod given that he deck is now over 40 years old and regardless will need to be carefully looked at. 

When Wilkinsons worked on my QL10 i got a new teflon thrust pad and a ceramic ball bearing. I am minded to use the watch bearing oil that I bought from Reson (they made a deck called the rota and i read the watch oil used is very clever stuff as it is designed to not displace and go into very small gaps and maintain a film) 

The TTS 8000 i may have to wait a bit for as i have seen the bill for my EMT restoration and it ain't cheap - that said its a full overhaul of the electrics and the tonearm which in fairness is not an unreasonable price.

I need to ask if pitch control can be added to the deck.

@dover I have the narrowline version. It was from an Austrian radio station so it had Lemo connectors - i am getting those changed to standard XLR unless i can be persuaded that Lemo connectors are brilliant. As it happens it did not have the MC boards - the transformer prices are a bit juicy too but I do want to hear the whole thing optimised. 

As it happened it didn't come with an arm so i had to source one at a time when the 929's weren't being made. Annoyingly the one i sourced was from someone that put horrible wire in it and had mis-adjusted it.

Likewise the TSD15 I bought was when EMT carts were hard to get in the UK - i bought it with a view to getting it re-tipped - but it had been owned by total idiot (less said the better) The cost of a rebuild may be un-economic and as such i may get a new TSD15. That said Benjamin has a Thorens VDH tip TSD15 which may be worth getting. 

I have asked Benjamin if he'd do an interview to put onto my direct drive page which is on a well known social network site, or I may ask Jason Kennedy at 'the ear' if he'd post it there.

The interesting/sad thing with DD's is that the real brains that devised the Japanese superdecks are a very shy breed and I've never corresponded with one of them - it will be sad if such knowledge died/disappeared. Thankfully Benjamin took the reins from his father and as such EMT's the world over can be restored to original.

@lohanimal We share a crossover in interests, where a few extra TT's, readily available are the option, we also have encountered unwanted outcomes when acquiring the collection.

My second TTS 8000 arrived with a difference to the images I reviewed when I was deciding on the purchase, on arrival the Front Panels Hinge and Fascia had an impact damage. At the time, it was a little frustrating, as the TT was bought aesthetically acceptable, without too much concern for the rest, and the important deal maker was compromised. 

I own a Belt Drive TT, Idler Drive TT's and a Selection of Duplicate Model DD's, being Technics, Sony, Denon and Aurex. 

All the DD's are selected as Models that were seen as the Pro' or Consumer Pro' models from their Heyday.

These are duplicated for one reason only, to keep one in its original condition, albeit a Bearing Clean and Lubrication. The other to be put under the microscope and undergo modifications.

A modification can mean an Electrical Change is made, along with a Bearing Overhaul, as I have had carried out on a SP10 MkII, a Bearing Overhaul as I have had carried out on the TTS 8000.

The Aurex SR-510 has been Stripped Back, and I have seen where I would like to start discussions for this TT, it is a fledgling stage of the overhaul. 

The Denon DP-80 is yet to be fully stripped back, I have seen a proportion of the inners, but not got to the point of have the Bearing housing and parts in hand.

What is known from all the above and remains a Suspicion for the DP-80, is that all Bearing Housings are Arid Dry, with an indication that a Lubricant had been present at some point, this can be seen at a Thrust Pad, or sometimes a Black Tarnishing on a Spindle.

 I like yourself am fortunate to know of or have developed a friendship with individuals who are adept with making improvements to Vintage TT Designs. One friend in particular, who I depend on to assist with my interests, is recognised for their abilities within the UK and further afield. 

I don't go to individuals with a Timescale, I like to propose an idea, and they develop it at their leisure, I am not in a queue. I have even yielded my own work being undertaken as others with a same TT, have requested the Mod's being undertaken are done to their own as a priority. I am not without a means to replay music, so no beef at my end. I am now at a position where a friend I have been encouraging to take on a Kaneta Design is nearly complete, the time between the first seed planting to now, has evolved to a Kaneta with a New Platter Design, and able to incorporate other selection of Platters that are available, original, original modified and one being Phosphor Bronze. ' Ohh Happy Days '.  

I set limits for myself; I have a skillset cut off. I am happy to Log a Dismantle, Clean, Lubricate and Reassemble, but EE undertakings, and Re-engineering a Mechanical Interface is strictly for those with the desired appropriate skills.

When dismantling the assemblies, I witness small differences in interface materials used, usually the same role is required of the parts, but I also can't help surmising, it is these parts that are used to fine tune a sonic signature and further separates the Brands. It is strange how the Sintered Bronze and Thrust Pad interface is almost typical apart the minor dimension variation, but other parts that seem quite important in use are different in form and type. 

If a Hard Rubber Donut that seems to fail in the surmised function for it, was removed from its position and replaced with a material that worked for the surmised function and was a softer material or composition of materials, does this change the Sonic Signature and any colouration to the sonic the original part may/may not have been introducing. This is the area of investigation I may take on myself, as it is within my skillset, once all A/B Duplicate TT's are ready to be compared.   

When Modifications to certain criteria are in place, especially where a Bearing Housing is concerned, the Presentation for the overall Trilogy, TT > Tonearm > Cart' is without any doubts able to be perceived as much improved in performance. The Detail Retrieval from the recording, that is now a unadulterated signal getting through to the Speaker and Noticeably Audible is a very new offering from a familiar equipment and when perceived, has always proved to very attractive and wanted to be maintained.

I have always struggled to understand why there are in various forums, advocates of Vintage TT's, that stand by choices made and promote the idea to be considered with a vehemence. It also is difficult to understand why the subject of a Bearing Service or Bearing Overhaul is from certain forum members met with a counter argument to the idea.

Where the most difficulty comes in understanding is where a Vintage TT Owner can have it mounted on an extremely expensive Support Structure, and in use with a Tonearm > Cart' that can be £5000 ($6000) +. Where with this investment made, leaves them believing this is the method to achieve the best form their selection of Source Material and Downstream Components.       

The benefits to be had from working with a TT support structure is immense when working with a TT in the above condition. TT's without any care for the overall condition are in use with expensive Tonearms, it is not uncommon to see reports that certain methods of support structure have produced a TT that is a Keeper and preferred over other guises. This experience is exponential at surpassing any previous results when carrying out investigation of a Support Structure on a TT that has undergone Modifications to a certain criterion. 

I am not too familiar with what your EMT 950 is undergo as an overhaul, setting that to one side. Finding the ideal ancillaries to be utilised as a method for support of the EMT 950 is my suggestion to be looked into, once the Honeymoon period is over from its return. 

     

Hi guys 

I have a catch 22.

my options are:

a. Get a brand new tsd SFL with headshell

b. Get. Rebuilt tsd 15sfl

c. Get groove tickler to rebuild a horrible old one with any stylus/cantilever - will need adjustable headshell

What you think?

Send it to Anamighty for rebuild

or

New - have you considered being the standard TSD SPH ( spherical ). Many devotees of the EMT sound prefer the spherical version.

Benjamin thinks the SPH is better for pre '84 recordings. I have a lot of post '84 music (I was in the DJ vinyl revival) although I do buy a lot of second hand simply coz you get pre-digital mastering.

I was hoping someone with experience of the carts would pipe up. The problem with EMT owners and users they appear to operate in a bit of a parallel universe. We know they are out there - we know they exist - but they don't seem to post much and when they do it appears to be based or comes from a perspective that nothing else out there exists nor can compare without giving any objective or comparative description. I'm open minded enough to accept there are many ways to float our boats - it's why i have an unhealthy habit of accumulating turntables.

 

@lohanimal 

I have actually heard quite a few EMT's - both vintage and new.

The best by far was a Van den hul modified EMT - transparent, punchy, fantastic on large scale orchestra. Very dynamic. Thats why I suggested Anamighty.

The TSD SPH is quite musical - personally as standard to me it sounds more nuanced than a Denon 103 ( and 103 modded )

However, apart from the VDH modded version these cartridges are a vintage sound - can be course - and not high resolution. The finer stylus exacerbate the shortcomings which is why I would consider the SPH. I would not spend the money on the JSD range for example - too course sounding - most of the folk I know who bought them sold them off shortly thereafter - poor value for money.

If you really want post 80's DJ revival you would be better off with a Decca.

Best combo I've heard for that music was a Garrard 401/Dynavector 505/Decca London - slam and speed.

There are a couple "new" TSD cartridges with more radical styli instead of the SFL.  You also have a higher option with the Novel.  I have an 80th Anniversary with a sapphire cantilever and a MR HP which I believe stands for micro-ridge high polish tip.

@dover I sat for a coffee with Van Den Hul himself. He did a few things to the cartridge and it was not simply a different stylus. He changed the rake angle from 15 to 25 degrees - then the headshell mount was changed to a solid piece to prevent a spring effect/resonance. Thanks for triggering that memory I had.

I’m no longer into the DJ revival so to speak - that said I started to buy vinyl in the 90’s - my music was funk/soul/rare groove - not BPM house. More a description of when I bought records. Sadly u can’t buy a Decca new - apparently Decca can re-tip and refurb but no new ones🥲

I am not minded to spent 2 1/2 times as much for a modified cartridge - sorry. I have spent money on exotics by Zyx and Transfiguration but even then i consider relative value. The very respected re-tipper in the UK explained an awful lot in terms of manufacturing and value and putting it bluntly many cartridges are a rip-off.

 

My Investigations over many years have led me into the thought process that not all, but many Cartridges have shared the same internal / external parts across Brands. It is not unusual to discover over more recent years where Third Party Retip/Rebuild Services are sharing their findings and affirming that many Brands are quite similar in choices made for the components to be used to assemble a Cart’.

The above is not limited to a Variety of Brands offering a Cart’ produced by a Third Party Manufacturer, that becomes badged with a Brand Name, it also extends to Models from a variety of Brands Models that are Marketed as the Upper end of their Catalogue.

As stated in other discussions on this same subject, there will if scrutinised in some cases be discovered, that other differences are included in a design, such a Body Material, Styli, Rake Angle and Coil Windings, etc.

Where the difficulty is found from my observations, is how Manufacturers using the ’reported on’ common shared parts, are seen to compete in a very similar area of the Market, with a very close matched pricing. It does look like a Cart’ offered into a certain segment of marketing, are carefully matched for a pricing across Brands, that falls into an area, that it is surmised to be Strategy belonging to Low Turnover - High Mark Up for the particular items.

None of the above have caused concerns to myself in recent years, as I don’t rely on ’off the shelf’ Cart’s to experience my Vinyl replays, being replayed to a level that is competitive with the upper ranges of Cart’s offered from the Competitive Brands.

I know for sure there will be a day in the not too distant, where my methods are harder to continue with and an ’off the shelf’ Cart’ is looking likely to be the only easy to obtain Viable option. Where maintaining a SQ to the standard being experienced within the System at present is kept.

If I am still in need of an Upper Range Cart’ when this time arrives, is an unknown. As a basic preparation and attempt to keep informed, I will keep one eye on the range of Models being rated and keep an irregular check on the reports from their users, across a range of forums.