Hi Geoch – You are always candid, honest and passionate based on your personal experiences/observations. I can appreciate that. We are all big boys here. But let me be candid and honest too. My personal detailed TT impressions are on my page however just briefly. The VPI TNT was originally designed for the ET2. There are many out there. I owned one for many years and can say that when you say: Probably because of a faulty air pressure or wrong alignment, or even because the DP80 is a hell of a TT while the TNT was a lousy plastic sucker. I would put my money personally on a faulty pump and the wrong alignment part. You now have me wondering if Nikola considers his big Kuzma to be a big plastic sucker? My old TNT modified with thread, became a new TT far surpassing the belt version in my own setup. The TNT/ET2 you heard if it was an early TNT version with a basic ET2/pump and the POS PLC controller as mine was originally – well I rate it “2 out of 10” compared to the threaded TNT/SDS version with ET2 HP arm and pump mods later. In thread form it surpassed my SP10 mkII set up and forced me to look for the next version. But it became a little higher maintenance in this form. Just like that special girlfriend. I remember our discussion on what material I should use to fill the leg cavities as I was resting them on the excellent AT 616 pneumatic footers instead of the sprung feet. http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1325532980.jpgYour reply back to me was to used beeswax and leadshot in the cavity. Ingenious I thought at the time but it would be really messy. I ended up filling all four of them with blue tac at one point. But it produced a sound like it was coming from the dead. Unlike death itself this was easily reversible. So we have our personal experiences. The Verdier btw took this little tonearm to unimaginable heights for me personally. The JN Lenco however I am keeping safe for when I have more time to explore it properly. “I'm not convinced for the maturity of what the industry has to offer on this subject as yet and the clinical environmental conditions of handling them regarding dust or smoking is another disturbing thing to consider.” You are absolutely right. IMO - The demand for these tonearms has come from what I can tell from word of mouth and forums such as this. Just look at the upgrades discussed on this forum alone. Many here now have turnkey systems. One button turns everything on. When people buy these ET2 tonearms used they do not realize that the price being paid is not the price of admission. Significant investment and more importantly time needs to be made in a proper pump system. A new ET 2.5 is not cheap, and then the pump is not included. Bruce Thigpen makes it clear on his website, that sourcing of the pump system is not included but they will offer advice and help to source one. For someone inquiring into a ET2.5 and maybe getting to the next step of ownership – this is not appealing. But there are so many pump options available with it that Bruce has no choice but to leave this option open. Unfortunately most into analog want plug and play I have found and are not willing to do their homework here. Cheers |
Dear Chris,
I'm tempted to express a point of view οn this matter with the danger of an oversimplified misunderstanding by your side.
Theoretically,
I can imagine a great DD matched with a great air bearing arm, offering a great effortless precision. But this in an ideal state of mind in which every part of this set-up has designed with some proven research behind it and executed with utmost care in shape, materials in use and precision in assembly and overall construction.
I admit, I've met a critical point of my taste by using the hybrid TD124 with the SAEC WE-308SX and the Zonotone headshell. Two of the most complex designs in conjunction with my Colibri XPP gave me a vivid and lifelike presence, airy and energetic with an organic fullness which can't be found on my other top TT/tonearms. Perhaps a JN's creation of L75/Pluto 9A has all these qualities and more, but until now, the L75 with Reed 3Q or Technics EPA 100mk2 and my Symphonic Line RG6/Pluto 9A was nowhere near it's class.
A series of unfortunate events regarding my decision for turn my back to Tangential arms, includes a vivid memory of an audition of the Clearaudio Statement TT/arm/Goldfinger and a side by side comparison with the Clearaudio Master Reference/Pluto 5A/Goldfinger. It was clear for me my preference for the later as the achromatic character of the first left me uninvolving, unmoving my senses, looking for emotional charging. Τhis was a mechanical tangential arm (not an electronic but neither air bearing) without an armtube, but as straight forward as can be. I know this is a cheap excuse, but I'm very familiar with your previous TNT/ET2 set-up. When I've had the opportunity to buy this combo, I've bought the J4/SL5 instead. I wish that you didn't push me deeper to this. When I've had my DP80/SME V, a friend gave me his own DP80/Clearaudio TQ1 and this was a disaster. One of the most sterile, uncomfortable but also unstable performances when paired with my VDH Black Beauty, Grasshopper IIIM and Symphonic Line RG8 gold. But it was almost very listenable with my Insider. Yes, the ET2 never was set on my armboard, perhaps due to the fact that my DP80/SME V was allways prefered by our group when played beside the TNT/ET2. Probably because of a faulty air pressure or wrong alignment, or even because the DP80 is a hell of a TT while the TNT was a lousy plastic sucker. It is not that I don't have any experience with the tangential tracking arm, it is more that this poor ET2 was deeply buried by the great TNT of the time.
You should know better by now, but as I wanted to move into the parallel tracking arms, I've bought the J4/SL5 and after that, the Goldmund ST4 and even the Studio/T3F later.
Plastic armtubes running in parallel with the aluminium armtube, servos, elastic belts, waiting for the arm to make the mistracking in order to serve their correction, moving the whole construction to the next groove. OK let's get over these early monstrous electromechanical tonearms.
Practically,
As I'm approaching the air bearing clan of suspects, I can not see a clear view of what is possible or what is widely accepted regarding the armtube shape, material or lateral weight. The Kuzma, Simon Yorke, Air Tangent, ET 2.5, Conductor, Decca, Sindre, Terminator all have their own perception of air bearing mechanism and all things about everything. Where is the conical and progressively ascending tube inside a tube made of titanium ? Or the azimuth leveling on headshell ? While I can give my time on experimenting with the air pressure or mounting conditions, I'm not convinced for the maturity of what the industry has to offer on this subject as yet and the clinical environmental conditions of handling them regarding dust or smoking is another disturbing thing to consider.
Again my apologies for my ignorance, but I'm not a pivoted devotee only by coincidence, but more so by need. |
Thanks, Frogman, I'll give it a try. I only asked for its resistance over length to get a general sense of whether such fine filament wire makes sense for a long run. Obviously typical phono applications enlist tonearm wire for the short run from cartridge to RCA or XLR connector block. |
Dg, I use a continuous run from cartridge clips to phono stage, where it is soldered directly to the circuit board. I don't know the resistance spec for the AN wire. I can tell you that it is by far my favorite in comparison to the VDH silver clad copper, Cardas, and Discovery which I have used in the past. I still have the Cardas and Discovery looms which I have used since getting the AN, simply to confirm the improvements with the AN. The AN is a great wire, IMO. |
Thx Geoch for seeing my email :^) and providing input.
With an air bearing arm like the ET2 my personal experience has told me that 1) Arm/Table Design and 2)Execution, are of equal importance. I have and do run low and high compliance / VTF cartridges. The cartridge that can be seen on my SP10 in my virtual page is a Sonus Blue Gold. 50 x 10-6cm/Dyne with a triple leaf spring. Likewise I was running an XV1 for many years as well.
I am sure Frogman/Dover can add their more vast cartridge experiences than mine to my observation.
Hmmm.. since Nikola is a bit linear arm gun shy maybe I should extend the ET2 offer to you.... Just kidding I know you are very busy with family .... if interested let me know.
Cheers
|
Dear Chris, I'm on vacations and I can only use my mobile to respond.
So :
I agree with what Dover said.
We have to accept this fact but we must also note and realize that :
For an overhang of 17mm at the full side of an LP (22min=1320sec=733rotations) the displacement per rotation is 0.0232mm.
This particular kind of progressive speed break that takes place, it is just impossible to perceived by our senses as speed variation or pitch instability, but of course we can clearly witness a unique phenomenon of a flowing without friction that results only from the allways perfect tangential TRACE and this is the part of interest, not the effect of the perfect SPEED.
Now, to be able to take any advantage of this quality, one has to take care a number of concerns that perhaps this thread brings over, (I'm sorry it is impossible to read the whole thread on my ancient mobile phone) but one of the most curious that I've witness is the cartridge great VTF, great actual physical weight and relatively low catilever's compliance. I don't know if your experiments with MM carts brings forth any issues reg. all of the above, but my own living with Piere Lurnee SL5 & Goldmund T4 with MC's was reflecting this preference. I know these were 2 bad examples of Tangential arms but this is my limited experience and this is also the reason that I abandoned the Parallel tracking chapter. I've allways had lusting over an Air Tangent but the cost of purchase was 13000 euro five years back and lefts me wanting. I'm sorry but I can't be of any help here and somehow I feel that I'm embarrassing your findings with my own contradictions. It is just a different path that I take here, (as with my speakers, my DHT line pre & SET/OTL power amps) and although not clearly a preferance for pivoted over tangential, my favorite cartridges direct me this path .
About the alignment post on Pivoted arms:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1343550512&openfrom&21&4#21
Take care |
Dover
Ct0517 - I would not run an ET downhill, but I get the overhang argument. Dover – oh I get it. But I will also admit I have never experimented with making the ET2 armtube go past or stop short of the target point. I did not feel a need to because of the design. I felt I would be compromising it. Add it to the audio bucket list. Pivot arms are different though – I have experimented because of the design and gone outside of protractor lines. I am in agreement with what Geoch said in my earlier post where I linked his contribution to an alignment thread. Dover
NOW HERE IS ANOTHER POSER to ponder :
With a pivoted arm we have an overhang. The pivot arm/stylus tip moves in an arc, which means that for every 1.8 seconds ( 1 rotation ) the stylus tip has actually moved slightly forward with each rotation.
Put another way if you put the stylus tip in the first groove, and draw a tangent to the spindle centre, then with each rotation the stylus tip will move further ahead from that tangent.
This means that to achieve the correct playback speed, with a pivoted arm, then the TT needs to speed up with each rotation. Well this IS very interesting. Again I have never considered this with my pivot arms. A changing variable with every rotation. Hmm…...Let me think about it.. Hopefully the pivot arm “devotees” here can chime in ? Dover I am starting to wonder how many more of these “NOW HERE IS ANOTHER POSER to ponder” posts you have lined up for us to consider ? |
Frogman, I have been thinking of trying that AN tonearm wire. Do you use it in a long uninterrupted run from cartridge to phono stage, or in a short run to a connector block on the tonearm? The AN wire is lighter gauge than the screened silver wire that I currently use from cartridge to phono stage. In a four-wire balanced arrangement this screened silver wire has excellent noise rejection, but must be dressed very carefully(perhaps impossibly so) to avoid interference with free movement of the arm wand. This wire has 4 ohm resistance over a 160 cm span. Any idea what resistance the AN wire presents per foot or meter? |
I agree with Chris and Dover, in my experience the ET should not be run downhill. Anything but perfect leveling of the arm causes image instability and balance problems at best, and in a worst case it causes severe distortion at the end of a record. The effects of the increased overhang adjustment have been relatively subtle, but definitely audible (beneficial in my case), and I would love to know in more detail what Brucen T meant when he said : "He's probably right". Some thoughts on leveling:
Maybe some would consider it masochism, but I have never been even close to experiencing enough frustration with setup of this arm to want to ditch it and go back to a pivoting. I have always tried to setup according to what my ears tell me sounds best, with the theory and "correct" approach taking somewhat of a back seat. As with most things in audio there is seldom only one parameter that needs to be considered at any one time; remembering that makes setup easier. For instance, balancing the tonearm (however we each do it) affects azimuth; so, it's important to remember that when we listen for the image stability effects of getting the balance stable. I use a small bubble level on the spidle itself, not the manifold housing. I find that this gets me in the ballpark, and then I use a procedure that I know will raise some eyebrows. I raise the cartridge using the cuing wand (not the lever) and very carefully "flip" the arm/cartridge up a tiny bit so that it actually bounces up and down unto the cuing wand. While this happens there is enough time for the entire arm to be suspended mid-air without the friction of the either the LP groove nor the cuing wand itself affecting the perceived movement to one side or the other. The arm will then "show" you wether it is truly level or not, as it will travel either inwardly or outwardly during those moments that it is suspended in air; one then mechanically adjusts accordingly. The procedure should be done with arm over the outer edge of the platter, the middle, and (if possible) the inner portion of the platter. I say "if possible" because as all you ET mavens know, the cuing mechanism is designed in such a way that the cartridge is usually closer to the record surface at the inside of a record vs the outside. It's tricky and potentially dangerous (to your cartridge), but I have yet to have an accident. One can always do it with the stylus guard in place, but that doesn't work for me since I like to setup the arm so that there is little clearance between the LP and the stylus "at rest".
Then there is the issue of the dressing of the tonearm wires and their influence on perceived "balance" of the tonearm. Aside from the superior sonics, that was one of the reasons I chose AudioNote wire for my wire loom. It is extremely thin and adds little drag to the arms movement. As an experiment I performed the above-described balancing procedure with the wire loom removed, and even in spite of meticulous dressing of the extremely fine wires, it was obvious that the wires will necessarily affect the perceived "balance" of the arm, and should be compensated for when mechanically balancing. In the case of my wire loom and how I was dressing it, it was introducing a slight force to the outside of the record.
Many users have complained that the ET "goes out of adjustment" over time. That has not been my experience. After years of experiencing this "problem", I finally realized that what was happening was that since I have the table on a wall mounted shelf, the seasonal shifting of the walls and floor of my house (110 yr old Victorian) was what caused the problem, not the arm itself. I suspect that many of the reported problems are caused by this.
Long live the ET2! :-) |
Ct0517 - I would not run an ET downhill, but I get the overhang argument.
NOW HERE IS ANOTHER POSER to ponder :
With a pivoted arm we have an overhang. The pivot arm/stylus tip moves in an arc, which means that for every 1.8 seconds ( 1 rotation ) the stylus tip has actually moved slightly forward with each rotation.
Put another way if you put the stylus tip in the first groove, and draw a tangent to the spindle centre, then with each rotation the stylus tip will move further ahead from that tangent.
This means that to achieve the correct playback speed, with a pivoted arm, then the TT needs to speed up with each rotation.
This means that the only playback system that is accurate in terms of speed is in fact a linear tracker.
Now...thoughts... |
Dgarretson
I wonder if this is about adding a small and constant skating force to help propel the carriage toward the spindle in a more controlled manner. Similarly, when leveling the carriage, optimal set-up may call for a very slight tilt of the manifold toward the spindle to gain assistance from gravity. Well IMO both of these represent a bad compromise and bad design. As far as the ET2 is concerned I have read posts that relate to a slight tilt a few times here. Here is a more recent one from Tonywinsc http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1342120769&openflup&22&4#22From that post I had a buddy who used the ET2 linear arm on his VPI table. It took him a few years to figure it out, but I recall him telling me that he had to level his table a certain way- slightly downwards, I think and it would track perfectly. He also said that he had to keep the air bearing tube perfectly clean. It would sound grainy if the tube had any dust on it. This ET2 was setup on a tilt to help send it to the spindle. This is a result of not reading setup instructions. They also say men have a problem asking for directions too. So I guess Tony's friend never figured it out. When I raise my ET2 arm and let its cueing lever eccentric actually rest against the cueing eccentric. At 19 psi I can lightly blow against the cartridge and even with it at rest, and the friction involved with the lever at rest on the cueing eccentric, it will still traverse the entire platter. It does not need gravity. Hence the simplicity, beauty and elegance of the ET2 design to me. Platter leveling is done first with a bubble level the length of the patter itself. The arm itself is then balanced with extra blue tac on the weights and gravity as previously discussed here on the thread. Sometimes the bar can get set high in the first jump. |
Frogman and other SL tonearm devotee's: I would think you are defeating one of the prime advantages of an SL tonearm by deliberately setting the stylus so that it is not on the radius of the LP (a line from the outer edge through the center of the spindle). By not doing that, you have a small but constant amount of tracking angle error at all points across the surface, and like Dave said, you have introduced some skating force for which you cannot compensate (no AS on an SL tonearm). However, as Duke said, if it sounds good, it IS good. |
Frogman - yes. Ed Thigpen's response at the time was "he's probably right".
Dgarretson, I use to check the level on my ET2 by balancing it to 0 with an additional counterweight and checking that when nudged the arm would travel freely and the same distance in both directions from centre. This as well as a level on top of the tube. Possibly a string bias weight type of weight pulling on the end of the armtube may be "gentler" than tilting the arm in your instance ??. |
Frogman/Dover, I wonder if this is about adding a small and constant skating force to help propel the carriage toward the spindle in a more controlled manner. Similarly, when leveling the carriage, optimal set-up may call for a very slight tilt of the manifold toward the spindle to gain assistance from gravity. I tend to find level empirically-- by watching the behavior of the stylus in the lead-in and run-out sections, observing cantilever deflection, and listening for tracking problems and distortion. I suppose I should add a leveling bubble to the air manifold for a more precise assessment. |
Dover, very interesting. The ET2 manual states that overhang should be set in such a way that the stylus lands on a perpendicular line which intersects the platter spindle. I have always found that I get better image stability (particularly with center image), and an overall more relaxed sound if I extend the arm wand so that the stylus lands a tiny bit beyond that line. Is that what you mean by "run a tiny amount of overhang"? Interestingly, the effect is more noticeable with low compliance cartridges. |
Dear Nandric, I do hope that you know that my comments are merely in jest, and for fun. I hold no bias towards your esteemed profession. In fact, I owe a debt of gratitude to at least two of the lawyers who I have had to employ over the years. On a tangential note (won't go into many details here), the end result of one of those instances is the relationship with my spouse, who because of her amazing work ethic has taught me that there can be be as much art and devotion applied to any endeavor; not just music making. (Please pass the box of tissues.....)
Regards. |
Dear Frogman, '(me)Lawayer? Heavens no!' What have they done to you? Chris is confronted with 3 or 4 of them but is still kind to me.
Dear Dover, The most of us are already scared by linear tonearms. Adding complexity to complexity is a strange way to improve the situation. |
Now here is a poser for all you guys -
An engineer/mathematician friend of mine suggested many years ago that if you run a tangential tracking tonearm and set the stylus exactly on the tangent, then the stylus has no reference as it has no lateral forces acting upon it and hence it is unstable. ( for those of you old enough think old fashioned cars with kingpins and wobbly steering when centered ).
His proposal was that if you run a tangential tracking arm then you should run a tiny amount of overhang and tracking angle on the cartridge.
Thoughts anyone...
|
Dear Nandric,
****Well I expressed my indebtedness to you already but I had no idea that you are also a lawyer.****
Lawyer? Heavens no! A mere musician. Although, truth be told, it may come as a surprise just how many similarities (in a way) and parallels exist between our respective professions; albeit in very different realms. Clearly the subject of a different discussion, but I have always found a tendency among non-musician music lovers to romanticize the music-making process; when in actuality, humans that we all are, much negotiation, personality analysis, reliance on precedent, etc. comes into play (pun intended). |
I agree with Dg. I would only add that I would use the shim only if absolutely necessary. With my 420 on the magnesium arm wand and with Cardas cart clips on the VDH wire, I can just about fit the clips in a way that does not stress the wires/clips; although it's just on the cusp of making me feel uneasy about it. |
Slaw, That's a good idea. A bond between similar materials couldn't hurt. |
DGarretson/Frogman: Do either of you see any harm in using carbon fiber rigid plate to fashion a spacer in which to mount the Acutex 420 to an ET carbon fiber armwand? McMaster Carr has some 1/8" x 12" fof around $11.00? |
Dear Chris, My argument which you quoted was meant for Frogman not you. I wanted to avoid any payment to him based on his copyright, alias the intellectual property on his writings. I used his comment about the 420 in this thread to get a good price for my 420 listing. We both made jokes about this so the real question is who was more funny.
To be witty is more difficult than to adjust whatever tonearm. There is no garantee for succes in advance so the only thing one can do is try. But I can see your point regarding your own profession. If one start with the 'worst case scenario' any other outcome will be regarded as success. In this 'scenario' I don't see any difference between your and my profession.
Kind regards, |
Cheers Nikola Your willingness to lend me your ET2 is moving but you ruined my argument 'against' Frogman. The reight response should be : nobody has the right to DEMAND anything without ,uh, some legal fundation. I realize that as you are a lawyer, you develop a script of dialogue (like a play), and if things go according to plan you run through the script as expected with a good result. But I have a confession to make. I am pretty good at ruining arguments as I have spent 25 years doing project management. I am a PmP. That’s not short for PIMP. I wish it was. That way I could make everyone happy. PM’ing does not follow logic all the time because the clients are not always logical, like the justice system. Now the business I am in also concentrates on preparing clients for a worst case scenario. So over the years these processes have become ingrained in me. My views definitely represent extreme ones as far as been careful and preplanning for sure. My family have made me aware of this a few times. No you don’t need to be a mechanical engineer with the ET2. This is really no different than bringing in any new appliance into the house "that actually works". All the instructions are the same for all of them. After you unpack, the manuals always start with similar language. "Read the installation and operating instructions first." Lets be honest here - how many actually do that ? Therein lies the problem. Offer stands open just for you – I will let Frogman and yourself get back to the lawyer stuff now. |
Dear Chris, Your willingness to lend me your ET2 is moving
but you ruined my argument 'against' Frogman. The reight response should be : nobody has the right to DEMAND anything without ,uh, some legal fundation. We are talking
about lawyers not about tonearms. However your kindness is
also suspect with all those warnings regarding the pressuposed knowledge and experience . I feel as if I need to get a degree in mechanical engineering first before I can handle the complexity and the sensitivity of the ET2.
But, you know, I was familiar with the linear tonearms befor you was probable born. In the 70is I got my first Rabco. But, as is usually the case, after some time
we want 'better than the best' so after about 3 years I got the Goldmund. For this one I wish you were there with
your warning: 'Be careful what you wish for!'. Your 'brilliant' co-member got the inferiority complex from this monster. The first time in my HIFI life that an
component made me cry and certainly not from joy. Then I
promissed to my self never ever to mess with linear arms. As a kind of 'sweet revenge' I now own 7 pivoted tonearms.
Regards, |
Otherwise I would be able to demand from Chris to lend me his beloved ET2 for a month or two. Nikola – Be careful what you wish for. You are a very witty and brilliant minded person. I get that just from reading your posts here and emails. I am no match for you. Now if you read my OP you will see that I am on my 10th year now with this tonearm and I am “still figuring it out”. So what makes you think you can figure it all out in 2 months ? That’s pretty bold I must say. Now understand “figuring it out” to me means making it as best as possible. Oh sure just setting it up and getting it working is no problem and even on a boring old aquarium pump. I even have one that you can barely hear that can even stay in the same room next to it with a filter for moisture. But there is so much that can be done here to optimize sonics and customize it. Imagine being able to change your wiring out in 10 minutes for copper, silver, whatever, tuning the arm for different cartridge compliances. magnetic damping, etc…. I take the important clues from our friend Geoch, that when buying an audio product look for those that give you access to the critical areas that can be improved. Those are the genius designs. BTW Geoch put out a couple of really good posts recently here (I thought) on how to optimize a pivot arm and very few on the thread seemed to show any interest :^( yet…. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1309722499&&&/Graham-Phantom-II-12-quot;-dimensions-anHere’s my deal for you only as I recognize these arms were not common there. JC Verdier as I said had no clue what tonearm I was using on his table. I will send you my second ET2 tonearm – the 2.0 HP Version to use for a couple of months. If you commit to two things. 1) Read the manual. If you can get through the manual you will know you are a candidate for this tonearm. 2) Commit to getting a proper air supply system that will give her the air quality she needs to run a good race. The Olympics are on TV. I run everyday so the running events I am more interested in. BTW tell me this is not cool. Just for today however, Google's Aug 7th homepage. http://www.google.comThe ET2 tonearm is like a long distance runner. The tonearm itself is the body and lungs. The Pump is the heart with the tubing being the veins. Success and optimization with this tonearm for me has been 40 % proper setup and 60 % air delivery system. Improve the condition of the heart (pump) and just like the runner the ET2 improves. BTW - There are some out there that have custom 50 PSI ET2 models. The problem as I see it is that Bruce is a really low profile guy. He is the type of guy that never felt the need to put words like “Supreme” on his tonearms. In fact unless you measure the spindle or are familiar with the tonearm to notice the larger spindle, you will not know which model you have. Those with 50 PSI models if they sold them, the new owners probably don’t know what they have. Have you seen his subwoofer Nikola. Did you realize that Bruce made the first true subwoofer. http://www.rotarywoofer.com/Ok so the offer is out with everyone here as a witness. The manual can be found here Nikola in two parts. Again be careful what you wish for. http://www.eminent-tech.com/main.htmlReady, set , go … Just a fan, and this tonearm is just a tool in an overall system. |
Dear Frogman, Your 'complaint' remind me of this story.
A satisfied client to his lawyer:'dear sir I have no idea how to thank you.'
The lawyer: 'dear sir since humans invented money this no
problem at all.' Not sure why but all my acquaintaces enjoy
in partucular to tell ME such lawyer tales.
Well I expressed my indebtedness to you already but I had no idea that you are also a lawyer. As such you should know that an demand or claim needs at least some legal foundation. Otherwise I would be able to demand from Chris
to lend me his beloved ET2 for a month or two.
Regards, |
I thought this would be of interest regarding power hits and LP playing.
We have been enduring the hottest summer I can remember. There have been a few power hits due to demand and storms.
We had a power hit on a beautiful but very hot day this past Saturday. I happened to be playing LP's.
I always knew I had some time with the air bearing tonearm due to the pump design but never tested or actually experienced it going out before.
The Timeter pump lets out PSI gradually. Like a balloon letting its air out slowly. I have about 12 seconds to lift the arm before it reaches a low enough PSI to actually start skipping (just under 2-3 psi).
The Verdier will continue to spin for about 25 seconds when the motor is shut off. The JN Lenco spins for just under 20 seconds. The SP10 MKII is dead on power out :^(
Cheers
|
Dover – I just now realized I may have put you in an awkward position asking for impressions on a general forum. My impatience in the interest of your findings. From your posts, you are in a rare position in this hobby with your product experience level . I have included my email in a recent post if you would like to share info that way or here for the others.
Now without having heard any of those TT’s in your list I can say, based on my own experiences.
This has been said already here but is worth repeating. The ET2 needs to be level with the platter and remain so. The air delivery and spindle must also be isolated from air turbulence, moisture and structure feedback. Introducing “any” TT that increases the risk of movement, vibrations, turbulence, structure feedback is asking for trouble and will be easily heard sonically in the ET2 as a problem. Whether as distortion, sibilance, or lack of HF LF extension, or if really bad not able to track. Any problem where the groove is not tracked properly.
Hence sprung turntables or TT’s with add on’s (pumps that need babysitting) - increase risk of movement with an ET2. Likewise any rigid table (being more prone to structure feedback on its own) introduces the possibility of structure feedback. Pump design (air turbulence). My first ET2 was on a sprung VPI HW19 IV and it was a PITA until the suspension was defeated. My SP10 set up is very easily affected by structure feedback. With that my Verdier has a pneumatic suspension but it is stiff enough that the arm is not affected. The turntable has stayed level since I have owned it. I’ve seen some very heavy arms mounted on this table so the ET2 is a piece of cake. As a point of interest to ET2 owners I have emailed with JC Verdier a number of times. As a Frenchman he could not recognize the ET2.5 in the pictures I sent him, but was impressed with what he saw of its construction.
Therefore looking at your list based on what I have said – I could probably study how the TT’s are made and come up with my own preferred top 6 list if I was shopping for a TT for my ET2 tonearm. You have however not given any details on the pump setup or whether it was a regular or HP ET2 model.
Cheers |
Dear Nandric, I am still waiting for my commission for the use of that endorsement :-)
****I forget the first rule for any component whatever: listen
first for yourself****
Aha! How true; nothing like listening for ourselves. I find most descriptions of equipment somewhat lacking. A comment that cartridge X is "better" than cartridge Z is not very helpful unless the listeners' tastes are identical and they have very similar systems. I have tremendous respect for Raul's ears and for his contributions. I don't think it would be doing any "injustice" to mention that I have disagreed with a couple of his assessments (at least in part). The Andante and the ATML170 are two that come to mind, and highlight how important personal sonic priorities are. Realistic (to me) dynamics is probably what I am most sensitive to. The Andante is very good in the dynamics department but I find it lacking in midrange timbre faithfulness. The AT does almost everything extremely well, but I find it to be dynamically polite. The Acutex has the "alive" quality of the Andante (and more), and the superior timbre, staging, and bass reach of the AT, while possessing a very direct quality instead of the AT's "always pretty" quality. Yet, Raul wasn't impressed. Perhaps you are correct that his sample was defective. Raul, if you are listening please chime in. Likewise, since you still own one sample please give us your impressions; but do give the cartridge some time to settle.
You are fond of colloquialisms and sayings. And since "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", I will end with:
Regards and enjoy the M(M)usic. :-) |
Dover
Care to share your impressions of the different TT’s with the ET2 ? You mention the same cartridge/system. Were all those turntables in the same room too ? |
Ct0517,
What interested me, or should I say piqued me, was the comments on lack of bass with ET2. I have run and listened to extensively the ET2 on the following TT's - Sota/Sota Star/Roksan/Townsend/Goldmund Studio/Technics SP10mk3/Final Audio. I was clearly getting more bass extension with some decks than others with the same cartridge/system, which tells me that the ET2 was not the limiting factor in bass extension. With some of the TT's the bass notes would "flat spot", in other words organ and double bass notes rather than go down further down the scale, the lowest notes would play incorrectly. |
Ct, Long ago I decided to take the ascetic route as regards a few basic principles in my audio system:
(1) No air bearing SL tonearms, because of the fuss involved and the ugly accessories needed.
(2) No bi- or tri-amplification and therefore no multi-speaker ensemble. (See above for why.)
(3) No subwoofer. (See also above.)
(4) No 2-box CD system, one single box CDP only.
Of course, observing these mandates led to a gigantic pair of ESLs, huge monoblock tube amplifiers that require two AC cords, each, and a preamp requiring a large extra chassis for its power supply. Not to mention those turntables that I forgot to make a rule about. And a car battery to run my CDP.
I gotta admit, the Terminator (but not the ET2) has me sorely tempted to break rule #1. |
Frogman, I become very greedy and bought 4 of those 420
carts but was devasteted by Raul's comment. To get rid of
them I used your (first positive) comment in my listing...
I forget the first rule for any component whatever: listen
first for yourself. I am happy to mention that I still own
the last one. But to avoid any injustice to Raul I need
also to mention that all (other) carts he recommended
and I bought are exactly as he described them. So my quess is
that his 420 specimen was defective. BTW I sold the one with
'your recommendation' for $200 to Vic from Transfi Audio ,
the producer of Transfi rim drive TT and 'Terminator' linear tonearm.
He was so impressed that he also bought one more from but this one for 200 Euro.
So, in some sense, I made a huge profit thanks to Raul.
Regards, |
Hi Lew – I didnt expect to see u here based on your aversion to tonearms with pumps, tubing , etc… Welcome to the thread. As an aficionado of Direct Drive turntables that you are, I present this ET2 setup just for you. BTW-This setup looks familiar to me :^) ?I agree with Frogman and say go ahead and put the the Acutex 420 on your….. DV505. But be patient, do setup one day, take a rest on 2nd day, on the third day find maybe something nice. It was a difficult cartridge to set up on a pivot arm for me. It required a lot of patience. Now I realize for some with 50+ MM cartridges “patience” represents an eternity. Some of you I have learned very recently go through multiple headshell / cartridge changes - per LP side ! BTW - I have tried the 420 in a JMW 12, DV505 and FR64s. To me the 420 being a very "undamped" cartridge is a good test of wires, grounding, as well as energy transfer. I said on the MM thread to also put it on a tall aluminium pole in your backyard. You may be able to pickup some Balkan radio with it ? Dover – do you know who the Kharma fellow is ? – would love for him to join here. I share his thoughts on antiskate, but definitely not his experience level - just on Post #101. Kharma on WBF re: Dover's previous link. "Please note that I have not mentioned skating forces. But, I should because skating force summarizes the problems with a pivoted design. I have owned and operated professional audio repair shops for 13 years. During this time I examined thousands of styli under a purpose designed stylus microscope. I examined every stylus that came into my shop. Without exception I could identify if the stylus was used on a pivoted arm or on a linear arm. The stylus wear on those used on pivoted arms was always non-symmetrical due to poorly compensated skating force. And skating force is ALWAYS poorly compensated because there is no single value that works due to the fact that skating force is constantly changing because of friction due to groove modulation. OTH, the wear on styli that have spent their lives on linear arms, even cheap ones, is always symmetrical. This is obvious under the microscope. My customers were always amazed when I showed them these results.” This is fascinating info. An eye opener. What knowledge this fellow must have. If he sees this please share your knowledge here. The other fellow seemed to be apparently be trying to run high pressure on an original regular manifold ET2 - from just the info available on the thread anyway. A big no no… |
Hi all,
I'm a big fan pof the ET2 modded even though I dont run it, went to unipivot primarily to get rid of pumps etc. You have to read the thread in WBF, I simply cannot believe the sheer ignorance of many of the contributors, the worst being Astor and Lavigne. Not much hope for credible audio reviews from these folk. These guys are idiots and I doubt much of their gear is set up correctly from their lack of understanding of basic physics.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5653-Linear-tracking-Turntables!
PS If you have low tolerance levels dont bother reading it. Make sure you have your sense of humour on board. |
Lew, mine too sat in the box for months because of some (not all) underwhelming remarks. My experience so far proves, once again, that even the cognoscenti are mistaken at times; especially when they are not patient enough to allow for proper break-in. As has been pointed out, however, there appears to be a special synergy between this cart and linear tracking arms. I encourage you to try it, and please report back with your findings. |
Guys, I was under the impression that the MM cognoscenti had rapidly moved past the Acutex 420, following its appearance and then disappearance in the market place. I know that Raul was not enchanted by it and seemed to far prefer his "blunt nose" 3XX series Acutex, which he likes even better than the late pointy 3XX series. Do these posts represent a renaissance of the STR420? I caved in and bought one too, from Italy. It still rests in its original box, because of the underwhelming remarks made on the MM thread. Was going to sell it, once I can overcome my inertia.
Has any Acutex-ian tried the Saturn V headshell? It may not fit the 4XX series; it was made for the late 3XX series. |
Thanks Acman, I just ordered a 412. |
The Acutex 412,415 and 420 STR are definitely interchangeable.I have listened today to the Acutex 412 and 420 on the same motor. |
I look forward to your impressions of the 412, Chris. Actually, I have been seriously considering buying a 415 on the assumption (perhaps mistaken) that the body/motor of the 415 is the same as for the 420. I would like to experiment with fashioning a different (wood or...), non-plastic mount/ shell for the 420, and don't want to risk damaging mine. If anyone has definitive (or simply educated) information about the motors of the the various Acutex(i) please chime in. |
Timeltel
“The 412s response is similar to the 420 but with more apparency in the mids” In a moment of weakness last night I decided to buy another crack jack box and see if a prize existed inside. I picked up a 412. I am curious how it will react with my other ET2 being set up to feed WPK Quad 57’s. One midrange apparent cartridge feeding very midrange apparent speakers ? Is it too much of a good thing ? I could not resist giving it a try for $49 euros. Timeltel – I always enjoy and value your posts on the MM thread. Thx for contributing here. |
Regards, Gentlemen: Ct0517 (Chris) referenced me to this thread, I've read it with interest. Not having an air-bearing tonearm, I feel somewhat like an interloper, but as I'm familiar with the Acutex carts, and although the 420STR is no longer available from this vendor: http://www.ebay.com/sch/ebusinesspoint/m.html?_uhb=1&hash=item3a770b6404&item=251105338372&pt=Piatti_e_Lettori_CD&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562The 412s response is similar to the 420 but with more apparency in the mids. The 312 is less aggressive in the hfs, either offers the distortion-free character of the 420. The 310 (bonded elliptical) is not in any way remarkable, it's my impression of the 415 that some may find it overly analytical. No association with the above vendor, he (?) has been reliable in the several transactions with me. Peace, |
Thanks Dgarretson for the tips.
I started reading the MM thread, WOW, boy am I behind on my homework! It will take me a while to get through it all but already getting excited about the Acutex if I can obtain one. |
Hi Acman3 (Danny) I don't know what direction you are wanting to go. I myself will go any direction (no biases here) as long as it provides the chills and goosebumps when listening. This hobby for me is a means to end and is much safer than - car racing ? - and the reason I’m sure my wife puts up with me. Welcome to the thread – thx for the lp recommendation. Hi Dover On the track titled "Five guys named Moe" there is a part where Moe is repeated 5 times. With the ET2 you can clearly hear each utterance and the position, starts front slightly right of centre and each "moe" is behind and to the left of each preceding one. Nice test – those 5 Moe’s go by really fast. I am going to try this one with my pivot arms. Slaw - the top two leads on my setup are crammed pretty tight on the ET2 with the 420 right now. DG – I think you could sell your shims as fast as you can make them here. |
Slaw, to resolve the clearance problem with M420 I added a graphite shim. In the past I've fabricated shims from hardwood for this purpose. I can't imagine why Acutex made this cartridge body so short with angled pins. |
Forgive me above, "Something So Right" is the songs name. |
Dgarretson: The "Rymin' Simom" has several tracks with a siblnce issue, IE... "Something So Wrong", (must be all of those S's.) Any way for siblince, this lp should meet your criteria except for a female lead. It has several tracks that can show well in good set-up with depth, soundtage, ambient info, several great African American singers and their placement along the stage.
I'm thinking about aquiring an Acutex. If so, I might have to use a lead weight/shim in order to have room to fit my cartridge leads in. Would this affect this carts abilities significantly/at all????? |
Funny, Acman3: with the same cartridge and tonearm I have been cycling through the entire Who catalog. The 420's tremendous sock, clarity, and separation play well with the power trio's delineated guitar, bass, and drum lines. |
I don't know what direction you are wanting to go, but I was floored with The Who's "Live at Leeds", while using the Acutex 420 on my Trans-fi arm.
Recommend you at least give it a listen individually if it is not where you choose to go. |
