^^^^^^^ Quantity versus Quality setups. Dealers / Reviewers got to about a 6 or 7/10 tonearm capability on setup. I base this on the setup that was done on my previous HW19 MKIV and TNT turntables which both came with ET2’s. The ET2 ’s needed to be shipped on turntables for customers, in a user friendly setup. This affected the wiring arrangement and I Beam length (dust covers), amongst other things. Dealers gave a cursory glance to the I Beam setup - meaning - the motto was to throw all the weight on, even if was not all needed, and let the lead blocks end up..... wherever they end up. Hmmm.... single leaf spring with all that lead. Have you, Eric, ever witnessed this type of I Beam phenomena ? ******************************* Anyway, that was the setup level that dealers and reviewers got to, and heard, and was distributed to customers; Still the arm was rated as one of the best based on this. And like all good business goals based on volume. "Hey Bruce, send me some more arms please" "Ah and don’t fret over this CD thing everybody is raving about ." ******************************** Now imagine if these dealers/ reviewers, got to hear the tonearm, with the setups discussed in this thread ? How many dealers , reviewers, in later years have even actually heard the latest ET 2.5 with Mag Wand - Optimized Long I beam , Single Shot wiring with an MC cart? Single Shot ? Yes, even Bruce sets up with single shot in his personal set up.. ******************************* Eric, you represent on this thread a type of enigma to me. You see, from your postings, you are obviously one of Bruce’ biggest fans. Yet for some reason you have never chosen to own the product that this thread is about. So you can’t contribute direct end user tonearm experience. A real shame because you are passionate. 8^( ****************************** Audiophile Trivia Answer The TNT was designed for the ET2 when Harry and Bruce had a business relationship. attached Pic from the Robert Redford Movie. https://photos.app.goo.gl/WR7wMt5bD7tVeYPC6Then Harry brought out his own tonearm for the TNT - and guess what - it didn’t fit on the plinth ! I know , I owned it. I also made a full plinth years ago. And I put the ET2 and the JMW 12 tonearms on it https://photos.app.goo.gl/LXD18UujFqVxyoDA9Cheers |
Brooks Berdan may have mounted more ET arms on tables than any other human. His first preferred table for the arm was the Oracle Delphi, for which he created a mod to keep the table's mass stable as the ET moved across the LP (Brooks had training in race car suspensions). He then mounted a lot of the arm on VPI's, first the HW-19 and then the TNT. Those table's higher mass provided a very stable platform for the arm. Brooks wasn't that impressed with the Linn, though he was an expert at setting it up. Brooks' preferred pivoted arm was the Graham. |
An ET 2 on a Linn LP 12 is a rare sight. Bruce Thigpen said a few have done it. I’m sure there are many LP 12 owners (Linnies), and ET 2 owners out there, that would be interested in seeing pics of this project.
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Please see the picture below. At the top left is the original Linn tonearm mounting point. This is where I first mounted the ET tonearm. The new ET arm mounting point is called out. I prefer this mount point because it is between the suspension points and is directly above the point at which the sub-chassis connects tot he armboard. https://photos.app.goo.gl/LQdv3P7Uw3RZf3FWA |
ncampbell - for consideration.
Take a small piece of square wood thick enough to hold a wood screw and long enough to go through the ET2 mounting plate center hole.
Attach the ET2 mounting plate to this free standing piece of wood.
Assemble the ET2 .....WITHOUT cartridge, onto the mounting plate then while securely holding the tonearm, proceed to experiment and find the best position on the plinth.
When the best spot is found for the tonearm. Use some green painters tape or like, to mark the 4 positions of the wood on the plinth.
***********************************
Now remove the tonearm from the mount plate and the mount plate from the piece of wood.
Put the piece of wood inside the lines of the painters tape.
The hole in the wood tells you about where you will need to drill the small tonearm mounting hole, on the tonearm armboard for the center bolt to hold the tonearm.
After doing the measuring exercise 3 more times.....then feel confident to drill the mounting hole.
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I would mount the tonearm closest to the One o’clock location, moving in from the current pivot mounting hole. Close enough so that the tonearm spindle is allowed full travel. This will probably put it close to where you mention ? I like pictures so. Here is a shot of the underside that shows the three suspension mounts "Red Arrows" that control everything. https://photos.app.goo.gl/iY4q68yf6tCFEUrt6Picture shows the position approximately, for the mount of the tonearm on the tonearm board on the opposite side. When the ET 2 is mounted I would then take time to re-balance as necessary by added weight to the plinth in the appropriate areas - experiment - to get the right vertical bounce that is needed with the Linn. The tonearm asks for a straight tracking line, and this line can be anywhere on the platter. |
Mounting the tonearm via the current pivot hole does not work for a couple of reasons:
a) the ET bearing spindle is not sufficiently long to allow the tonearm / cartridge to reach the outer diameter of the platter. The mount point, by necessity, has to be approximately half way down the arm board to allow the tonearm to reach the outer edge of the platter.
b) The Linn pivot hole mount point pushes all the tonearm weight to the outer edge of the suspension. This is a necessary evil with traditional tonearms. With an armboard midpoint mounting the tonearm weight now rests between the two suspension points supporting the armboard/platter which seems like a much better solution. |
Thanks for the great pointers. I am going to start by mounting the tonearm using the current pivot hole with the fender washer suggestion. At that point I will measure suspension deflection to see if it is factor and if so try some different tonearm angles to see if the deflection can be minimized. |
Hi ncampbell Have you decided on the spot to put the ET mounting hole ? We discussed the Linn LP12 here last year. I did a quick search of emails and found the email trail with Bruce which I attach below for you. Hopefully the information helps you. I remember the consensus at the time was that the ET tonearm mount hole should be positioned very close to where the pivot hole is. So the ET 2.5 is mounted at an angle. The reasons due to the suspension designed for a back mount. This is referenced below. One way of attaching the ET 2 mount is to get a long enough Stainless bolt and nut with a large - small holed flat washer (Fender Washer) that itself is larger than your mounting hole. The washer will hold the bolt/nut tight and you can mount the ET base to it. ********************************************** Linn suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCQNTy1Kt0********************************************** re: aluminum mount. It has more heft, you can feel the difference in your hand when holding it. So as you are already dealing with a tricky suspension - I would forego it for now and go with the original carbon fiber. And then add the aluminum later if you like. JMO. I can tell you that the solid aluminum joint (gooseneck) for me changed resonances enough that the MM cart I was using became un- listenable with my 2.5 and Mag armwand. My turntable supports the aluminum mount with no issues. ********************************************** Email trail with Bruce follows - read from bottom up. Cheers Chris *********************************************** Chris This is probably the best strategy, the Linn, which is an excellent turntable, is designed similar to the original AR turntables 3 point spring suspension with a low natural frequency. The drawback is that the repositioning of 20 grams or so as a straight line arm traverses the record may deflect the suspension, I have not measured a Linn to know if this is the case. On a three point suspension like the Oracle, the ratio of masses was such that this was not a problem - brucet On 3/7/2019 7:16 PM, wrote: Bruce, "designed for a lighter load centered on the back side of the turntable where a conventional tonearm mounts." From what you are saying, the ET2, if this person really wanted to do this set up, should then mount it at an angle on the plinth at say 1pm, as close to where the pivot arm is mounted ? ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bruce Thigpen <brucet@eminent-tech.com> Date: March 7, 2019 at 5:56 PM Chris This has been done a few times, you need to be very good with turntable set up, and it’s not ideal. The Linn suspension is designed for a lighter load centered on the back side of the turntable where a conventional tonearm mounts. It has been done but the potential user should be very good with tonearm setup and adjustment to complete the installation. - brucet On 3/7/2019 5:23 PM, Chris wrote: Bruce Someone is asking if he can mount an ET2 on a Linn LP12 turntable. I think the suspension is not appropriate based on this video. I have never owned one. Do you have customers using LP12 turntables ? Thx. Chris |
In the process of setting up a LP12 for a ET2.5 tonearm. Is the aluminum mounting base a noticeable improvement? |
Well I guess the seller got all huffy at my offer ( which was not that low imho).
He responded with the fact that he had already reduced from 2k to 1799 and was not open to any further reductions.
When I then pointed out that he still had his listing stating or best offer, he then blocked me from making any future offers or dealings with him.
TBH with that type of attitude I think I got away with a potential headache if lets say had been damaged in transit etc.
Sorry Chris but looks like I am still on the outside looking in!
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Exciting...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhlXqYiTz2Q8^0 *************** For kickers... Imagine that table setup in your room and the orientation of the ET tonearm. This is very important. What kind of track will that tiniest of signals run on ? Will it be a long course or a short one. We calculate the length. Measure the length from the headshell running along the armwand straight across and into your phono stage inputs. We add some length for a happy face loop. Then we get Gene (or somebody like) to build you some straight shot wiring. ***************************** Wiring Effect on Mechanics Unlike for example the Kuzma Airline, the ET tonearm does not need the wiring as a cradle. But its very smooth bearing, can make the wiring a problem for the ET 2, if not orientated properly. For this reason, the single shot wiring gets added last, after you confirm the tonearm works well mechanically. By adding in the wire after, you can verify setup, and you can confirm how much effect the wiring has on movement. Just some Out of the Box Setup advice. ***************************** oh and you call Bruce and get him to send you two long I Beams setup with single and double leaf springs. Then the fun can start. |
I made an offer on the Reverb listing.
We will see...... |
Kevin
I think it makes good sense for a new owner to purchase the tonearm already mounted on a table, regardless of where that turntable lies in pecking order. The reason is, as long as one accepts there will be a learning curve, this way one can learn how the tonearm works, get familiar with it. Tweak its’ setup. It eliminates that whole learning "setup" on a new turntable. That would be daunting to someone not familiar with the tonearm. Once one was comfortable with the tonearm, a decision can then be made about another turntable for the tonearm. JMO
I can tell you every upgrade of turntable I did, The ET 2 tonearm went to new heights, which showed me clearly that the tables I was using were the bottlenecks.
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Chris
If I decide to swing for an ET2 based table, I might have to send you a plane ticket to Jacksonville.......
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Glad there are some decent members here who are genuinely concerned for other fellow members welfare and possible state of mind down the road! Kevin I think those Savannah and Bengal kitties, have the capability to mess with one's mind..........more than the ET2..... Just saying. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ************************************* in my previous post. ......they always prefer to see and hear two "tables" spinning at the same time, over one. I think all those accompanying lights flashing, at the same time as the two wheels spinning, does work towards setting an Expectation Bias? Here is the two "tables" reference https://photos.app.goo.gl/mUHKMobM53NhoCsm8(not a good idea to set your turntable speed to the album version showing) |
Glad there are some decent members here who are genuinely concerned for other fellow members welfare and possible state of mind down the road!
Yes it is not a decision to make lightly, the linear tracking route, mainly why I still have not decided.
I can be reckless at times but this goes against everything I know and have grown comfortable with so it would be a whole new wide world out of my normal comfort zone.
I know there is support and assistance only an email or phone call away but still......
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^^^
For Beers and Cheers amongst mixed company, Hi Fi Steaming seems to fit the bill.
Now if amongst the company there is an "audio gear" guy (always a guy so far), 8^0 ......they always prefer to see and hear two "tables" spinning at the same time, over one. I think all those accompanying lights flashing, at the same time as the two wheels spinning, does work towards setting an Expectation Bias?
Do you know what I mean?
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Thanks Chris...sorry to hear about the effect Tidal has had on you but we keep marching on! |
Steve
yes I understand.I have been in contact privately with Kevin for a while now about the ET2. I "may" be part of the reason he has not yet committed to this madness. We have been discussing amongst other things how to remodel his house, to accommodate the pump I am recommending him buying 8^0.
I got the message across that I give everyone - that one needs to be "all in" to make it truly work with an ET 2. It's a unique tonearm unlike any other I have ever owned, that lets you "dial in" after initial setup, to the rest of your chain. Like a team taking a race car to a different track. After the initial qualifying run, the tuning starts for the final race. They are on a deadline, we are not. The results can be very rewarding for the Audiophile..
If you recall many years ago, I acquired a Studer Tape Deck, and spent quite a bit on select tapes, including master tape dubs. They were incredible when I first heard them in my room. Became the reference point to shoot for - for reproduced music play. And if you recall it is what was used for reference against "Goldilocks and Three Turntables". An AudioGon search will allow someone to find out the detail with that adventure.
Today, after years of tweaking, refining that ended maybe a couple of years ago, my vinyl rig matches, and on some of those tapes, surpasses their reproduction. I bought the Studer as a reference point. It will now need to be hotrodded, like my vinyl rig, to get back on top. Thats an expensive route I won't be doing anytime soon. So in the meantime it sits pretty much unused. I have a whole record library to get through, and Tidal - Hifi has cut into some of my listening.
Cheers Chris
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Chris,
The reasoning for my recent post was for Uber's benefit as I didn't want him to purchase that package and think he'd not have other expenses.
I appreciate your "warnings" to new users of the mindset required to take on an arm like the ET
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Slaw - That pump doesn’t have enough output for a high pressure manifold, does it? The surge tank, at this point would not be safe run at higher psi, as they weaken over time.
Steve The surge tank and original 3 psi pump in the picture provides clues into the history of ownership. I am making an assumption that another pump was used with that setup. Not available now, so the original pump is included. The original pump showing may also indicate that the tonearm started life as a 2.0 and might have been beefed up to a 2.5 by Bruce later....when he used to do these modifications. As we know, Bruce designed the ET tonearm in a way that the tonearm PSI can be built to customer specs. 3 PSI to higher up to 19 psi. I would recommend the person buying "that" tonearm to just pickup an aftermarket pump on the wholesale market and bypass the original pump seen in the photo. The pump as we have discussed here is an audiophile journey on its own, for the person that wants to explore that rabbit hole. We have discussed here as well, how to determine what the PSI has been set for at the factory, for anyone buying a used ET 2 version tonearm with PSI unknown. We can rehash if anybody wants. I do enjoy talking tech. Takes my mind of these markets - lol ******************************************* Pegasus
- Surge tank: My Airtech tanks end caps broke during a long time of being stored away. My replacement was a standard HDPE gasoline tank, 10l (ca. 2 gallons) with two 5mm holes drilled in the screw cap, with silicone tubing entering each hole, one with a short piece entering the tank, one with a long piece touching the "floor". The tank is filled with polyacryl wool for damping. The seam of screw cap / tubing then is "glued" with hot glue. This stays air tight since 10-15 years, and i’s cost were almost nothing.
- My original ET pump with ET 2 arm gave ca. 0.25 to 0.3 Bar. With the improved Pegasus - I am sure your surge tank is built to Swiss Specs 8^0 and very good ....however I am of the personal opinion that technical talk of surge tanks, scares new potential owners away. I think the air bearing tonearm talk itself may intimidate people enough, without getting into details on the tonearm peripherals. JMO With that, I believe a better solution is to use a pump whose surge tank, and water removal functions are part of the pump's integral design - plug and play, no maintenance needed. How does that sound ? ****************************************** @the nature boy re: your question about the ET1. I believe your question was for the most part answered in the previous posts ? Visually looking at both versions one can see many differences. The ET1 is probably as rare to be seen for sale, as the 2.5 for different reasons. Now if one is of the belief that the vinyl hobby is a vibration resonance adventure; well Bruce has done "extensive" analysis on materials, resonances; just look at his sub woofer product Low Frequency testing, that he took to Africa to test Elephant responses. Anyway Look at the materials used in the ET1 compared to the ET 2.0 and 2.5. The 2.0 - 2.5 have VTA on the Fly, exchangeable armwands, and an I beam design that allows for matching up to different carts. Now with that, I am sure there are ET1 owners out there loving them, and they work great with their systems. It’s all about tweaking and tuning - isn’t it ? Myself - I think a better question is what is the difference between the ET 2.0 and 2.5 ? It is not obvious to the general onlooker ? Cheers |
Hi!
Kind if a n00b here. Is the model 1 same level as the ET2? |
A few comments about the offered arms:
- the ET one is a good choice for a low to medium compliance cartridge, usually a MC. I think the bearing was almost (?) as high quality as the "low pressure" ET2 bearing. The bearing (and the headshell / arm / bearing connection) is less stiff than the ET 2.5 though.
The main advantage of the ET 2 and ET 2.5 is that they are more adaptable (than most any arm on the market except the Mörch).
- Surge tank: My Airtech tanks end caps broke during a long time of being stored away. My replacement was a standard HDPE gasoline tank, 10l (ca. 2 gallons) with two 5mm holes drilled in the screw cap, with silicone tubing entering each hole, one with a short piece entering the tank, one with a long piece touching the "floor". The tank is filled with polyacryl wool for damping. The seam of screw cap / tubing then is "glued" with hot glue. This stays air tight since 10-15 years, and i's cost were almost nothing.
- My original ET pump with ET 2 arm gave ca. 0.25 to 0.3 Bar. With the improved tightness of the ET2.5 air bearing I'd expect 0.4 Bar. This is at least enough for a (well) "working" bearing. My high pressure manifold still runs at 0.15 Bar - much better than the original "low pressure" ET 2 bearing! |
Chris,
Seems like a great buy on the arm. That pump doesn't have enough output for a high pressure manifold, does it? The surge tank, at this point would not be safe run at higher psi, as they weaken over time. |
Kevin unlike most of the readers and posters on this thread, including myself; you are in a very unique, and envious position I must say, (probably to the owners of ET 2’s and ET speaker products), to be able to contact Bruce, take the short drive, and see Version 2 of the ET tonearm in action. When you witness and feel, first hand the action of the bearing, you will understand how extraordinary it is, compared to other air bearings.
Regarding those two linked ET tonearms/tables for sale - I myself don’t buy anything unless I perceive it as a deal. Now something can become a deal for me, if I know I can personally sell (easily) part of the package that doesn’t interest me.
Caveat
For someone like yourself, coming from long time experience with only pivot tonearms, it is IMO, important that the person be the personality type to see "OUTSIDE" the Box, and to be able to see, work and play ......"straight".
A straight line is demanded for proper operation, whether we are talking about how the tonearm tracks, or how level it needs to be. 8^0
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Chris
If that is the case and depending what the reverb seller would drop too it sounds like an excellent buy.
Lol, what's money, when it's gone it's gone! |
Kevin,
That's an ET 1.0 tonearm on the SOTA.
Bruce' first version not counting his early work collaboration with Mapleknoll. IMO- that's more for the collector.
But we know how collectors are .. very few ET1's around. So price wise? .....whatever a collector is willing to pay.
I would be jumping on the ET 2.5 w/Mag Wand. That person selling knows not what he is selling - it probably came from an estate. Just sell the turntable ........if only the tonearm is of interest.
I didn't mention it to you privately as you had just bought speakers. 8^0
Cheers Chris
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You sound happy with your 2.5 Pegasus. Be glad that Bruce is not based in Europe with an audiophile mentality. His prices would probably be double. 8^0
I think the manufacturer builds product, and provides general guidelines based on his/her design, testing, etc.... Then the product gets into audiophile hands and all hell breaks loose. Music lovers use products as designed I have found. They don’t have a temptation to tweak and just enjoy the music. Audiophiles are more likely to break the rules and go against guidelines.
This can be good and bad. Its good if they come up with "tweaks" that encourages the manufacturer to upgrade - improve on their design. Bruce’ more recent examples of this include the Long I Beam (reducing the lead weight requirement by half), Aluminum mounting plate, and Aluminum Joint (Gooseneck) that holds the armwand to the air bearing spindle........ replacing the previous Carbon Fiber.
******************************************
Vinyl versus Digital Shootouts
I started doing shoot out’s with my son when he visits. We put on a record album, and queue up the same album on Tidal HiFi .....15 seconds later. Adjusting for volume we switch between the two. The way I used to play with 15 IPS tape versus vinyl. Yeah doing some venturing on the dark side over the holidays.
Result/Findings.
As good as Tidal HiFi sounds ....CD quality and better, my son is getting an awakening on how good vinyl really is. He then starts asking questions about the chain of events, from the needle drop and how we get the sound out. Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel for all these records after all. He is also fascinated with how a piece of long string, around a platter, is able to keep the music in time (the tempo and rhythm of the music) as good as the digital stream, as far as the human ear is concerned.
I admit as well it is a lot of fun switching between different re-masters of the Beatles albums and the like, with just a click.
Cheers
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@chris
I think the reason for the ET2 spindle design was
a) it was quite brillant with any cartridge (and still is).
b) the ET2 spindle is ca. 23 g vs. 31g (ET 2.5). This concerns horizontal mass 1:1.
Also the bearings outer tube is considerably heavier. This concerns compatibilty with sprung subchassis.
Mid 80's there were a lot of english (and swiss/german) tables around, with rel. lighweight sprung subchassis. Minimizing mass was important for compatibility.And keeping the spindle (and horizontal) mass low was important for optimized MM & MC compatibility. (If only not to stand too much out in the theoretical rain concerning "much too high horizontal mass").
The high pressure bearing increased stiffness of the bearing, and the larger spindle increases stiffness of the bearing by an additional factor of 2.5! The ET2 bearing is stiff to begin with (it's not the "intuitive" air cushion one imagines), but the ET2.5s large surface high pressure bearing is even stiffer by (guessed) almost an order of magnitude.
Practice shows that even the high compliance B&O MMC1 "likes" the heaviest ET2.5 configuration, without getting hickups.(as it "likes" a longhorn stabilizer even though the coupling of the cantilever to the body is of rel. low stiffness.) |
The last time I travelled the "Wet Road" I was using the short I beam. https://photos.app.goo.gl/CDygimyC7ByWM79C7For Non ET2 owners and the Curious. Look at the yellow circle in the picture. Notice how the air bearing spindle (Grey) is flush with the (black) counterweight cap. That is the easiest way to detect a 2.5 with the larger spindle. On the 2.0 version the counterweight cap overlaps the smaller spindle. The ET 2 manifold casing (think of a car engine block) is bored out, to be able to contain the large 2.5 spindle. Now the confusing part is Bruce’ labeling on the manifold case, for both the 2.0 and 2.5 - just says "Eminent Technology Tonearm 2" The labeling doesn’t differentiate between the two versions. Why the larger spindle for the 2.5 ? .... (the curious ask). Good question. Short answer.... to match resonances better with MC If you take two tubes same material - one larger diameter than the other; the larger diameter will resonant lower. You can prove this by striking each one with a mallet or like. The larger 2.5 version spindle was designed for MC carts and their higher resonances (stiffer cantilevers), so the 2.5 spindle resonates lower. Matching resonances better. ******************************************** tomic601
12-12-2019 1:08pm
Wanna be here @tomic601 Hello Tom. I missed your post.. Welcome..... will you be staying for dinner and drinks *^0 @nandric will you be joining us for dinner Nikola ? Please bring some slivovitz 8^0 |
The road: started for me with the Et One ca. 1985. After I’d explained the physical drawbacks of the construction a few months earlier to an enthusiasmized friend... :-)
It worked sonically rather well - with the one exception of the somewhat lacklustre sound of a Decca London cartridge, which I couldn’t explain - at that time.
Then, ca. 1987 an offer I couldn’t resist: The offer for an ET2.Later adding the damping trough, in between the (shitty) WISA pump and the expensive & OK lab tank, which now is broken thanks to ageing PVC. It is replaced now by an adapted cheap PE gasoline tank. Then the high pressure bearing and the ET2.5...The evolving ET 2/2.5 is the best audio & musical joy investment I ever made. Returning to it after ca. 15 years of Well Tempered Signature front end was like coming home.
The one thing I always come back with surprising consistency: Maximized (and almost) perfect lateral balance is surprisingly audible. The ET2 / 2.5 is an audio measuring tool for forces on the cartridges cantilever. It’s more easily adjustable than any other arm IMO. First level the turntable on its own as precisely as feasible (more difficult because without the help of the ET2.) Then level the arm on the ’table by nulling the tendency to glide away.After this, in my somewhat "organic setup" (wood floor, wood parts in the base), I level the integral turntable with help of the arm.
And the other thing really standing out: The front end is so revealing that several times during the last weeks I heard something slightly off, and it was either the floor "working" (level, see point above) or:
By handling of the arm, touching the counterweight or some other handling, the VTF differed *slightly* - ie. not more than 0.015 gram. It was eally less than 2cg. Context: I do not really tighten any screw in my setup, because of (...). This *was* audible in a close to blind test situation - "... somethings sounding not quite... ??". In such a revealing setup it’s *musically* rewarding to a surprising degree how much (less than) 0.01 gram VTF can do, sonically.
I invite anyone to try first before argueing against - an ET2 or any other superb front end BTW will show it. (And yes, I know that temperature and other factors modify the dampers properties constantly). |
Yes, and the arm will then “see” varying degrees of damping as the paddle traverses the trough. Not good. Frogman/Pegasus No not good. A case of the "tail wagging the dog" ?? We are dealing with an exotic tonearm here. We go to a lot of trouble in setup, to achieve what we believe is simplicity - the Truth. https://photos.app.goo.gl/qp7Va8CbBkKmsBz67We took the Red Pill a long time ago... remember ? You don't want the back end (damping trough) not holding up its end of the agreement. ************************************ Reminds me of something my late uncle said to me one time many years ago. We were riding in my car and I thought I heard something making noise in the back. My uncle said to me "don't worry about any noises in the back" ......LOL It's a substantial piece, the damping trough. If mounting I am off to Home Depot for permanent bond. Removing the tonearm, Putting the manifold casing on its backside. Lining it up correctly. Triple checking. Committing to it. Then it becomes even more critical to set the arm up right. If you are lined up correct at the front - you better be straight with the paddle at the end. No one told me this road was going to be wet ........8^0 |
**** BTW - anybody had the issue, that the damping trough "moved" over a long time? Ie. the bonding tape letting loose slightly, not symmetrically bearing side vs. outer side.
In consequence the "oil bath" is not level with a level arm.****
Yes, and the arm will then “see” varying degrees of damping as the paddle traverses the trough. Not good. My solution was to cut a small piece of foam approximately one half or more the length of the portion of trough that is bonded to the manifold housing and slightly taller than the space between the bottom of the manifold housing and the arm board or top plate of the table. Push it inside the middle portion of the gap between the two and the springiness of the foam will apply just enough pressure to the underside of the bonded portion of the trough to keep it perfectly in place. |
Pegasus your picture doesn't load for me. Any plusminus systematic listening impressions with the long i-beam? Ie. whether the counterweight far out (lower i-beam resonance) is preferred to less far out and a heavier counterweight? I tend to feel ( ;-) that the bass with my high compliance cartridge / ET 2.5 is unusually quick and extended with the long i-beam, and with the counterweight rather far out. The only negative for me so far. Sometimes my wife is careless and leaves the main floor door leading down to Dads's Hole ....open. Our Savannah cat likes to explore. So I have been researching the costs for an an acrylic cover to cover the entire ET2 tonearm and Verdier platter - and accommodating that long I Beam means .........a bigger Acrylic footprint now. The stuff is not cheap. I tend to feel ( ;-) that the bass with my high compliance cartridge / ET 2.5 is unusually quick and extended with the long i-beam, and with the counterweight rather far out. This is the recommended setup formula for highest vertical inertia. ******************************** for non ET2 owners. The Curious 8^0 Picture two friends equal weight on a teeter totter. That's the ideal setup for fun and ET2 setup.. If a heavier friend shows up instead he will need to sit closer to the center beam. Likewise with the ET2 the heavier weights move forward closer to the air bearing. Not ideal. With the ET2 this increases horizontal inertia. The ET2 already has high horizontal inertia and medium vertical inertia. We can modify this with the counterweights positioning and increase vertical inertia - less weight further out. |
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- BTW - anybody had the issue, that the damping trough "moved" over a long time? Ie. the bonding tape letting loose slightly, not symmetrically bearing side vs. outer side.
In consequence the "oil bath" is not level with a level arm.
- Any plusminus systematic listening impressions with the long i-beam? Ie. whether the counterweight far out (lower i-beam resonance) is preferred to less far out and a heavier counterweight?
I tend to feel ( ;-) that the bass with my high compliance cartridge / ET 2.5 is unusually quick and extended with the long i-beam, and with the counterweight rather far out.
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Hi Chris it looks not the "traditional London way" as in your photograph, instead it's this way: https://audio-intl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/c_91_pro.pngIf one looks carefully, one can see the thread that "secures" the cantilever from the front against backward scratched groove motion, instead of pulling only from the backside. |
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Dear chris, Regarding your own categorisation of the ''visitiors''
of this curious thread I would subsume myself under category
5 b. But according to my own opinion I would add category
''teasers'' and count myself as one of those. To put this cryptic
I like to tease people that I like.
Well to me test records are ''necessary''. I own so many cartridges
that some ''fast adjustment procedure'' is needed by their change.
I always start with tracking ability test and like 60 microns ''pure''
but accept 50 if some carts (like Ikeda 9) can't reach higher value.
According to my German test record 50 Mu(aka Microns) is
sufficient for any ''normal LP''. So usually when I get 60 microns
I keep the corresponding VTF as is.
Asking which of my carts is my ''darling'' is like asking which of
my kids is my favourite. This an ''immoral question'' (grin).
But I can answer the question about my ''darlings'': Allaerts MC2,
Magic Diamond, Ikeda 9 REX, FR-7 fz, Kiseki blackheart, Miyabi
standard , LP S and Urushi Blue sky.
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The thread is made up 1) ET 2 owners, 2)ET 2 wanna bees, 3) the curious, 4) the trolls. 5) the Comedians (which fall into sub categories of a) Light humor b) Dark and Sarcastic humor. The only female ET2 owner I know of is Wendy. Good lord she hasn't age a bit ! Music is indeed the fountain of youth. 8^0 I confess I enjoy the category 5b posters alot. IMO Nandric' posts here (being a non-owner) are a good example of 5b. These types of comedians are able to dish it out and take it too (which they seem to enjoy) With that I look forward to @nandric reply to my question about the Ikeda and London cantilever-less. I have data on the London which I have shared. But this Ikeda is a ? I can understand though, somebody wanting to send off on a plane or ship and say bye-bye to....any cartridge that only tracks less than 50 microns. 8^0 (my feeble attempt at 5b) Go up to any average person and ask them what they think of Cantilever-less ? |
Hmmm,
Trying to figure out how this thread got 1.3 million views and 2200 posts if only 4 of us own the ET arm?
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Nikola - good morning. So you got me curious about this Ikeda 9 cantileverless cartridge. Did some research found your forum thread here. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-familiar-with-ikeda-9-series-cantileverless-kind-mc-ca...from that thread your post. nandric OP
06-18-2018 3:00am
Thanks dear ddriveman, My only problem with 9C,mk 2 is the
(very) low compliance. I can hardly get 50 microns ’’pure’’
with tracking capability test records. Speculating or rather deducing
from VTF 2 g by R versions in comparison with 2.5 g for my 9C,2
I assume that R versions have higher compliance (?).
BTW I recently purchased Ikeda 9 TT with aluminum cantilever.
Nice but not equal to the cantileverless kinds. ****************************** "I hardly get 50 microns" I did more research about your comments ...... According to the Vinyl Essentials - Hi Fi test record http://rssconsultancy.co.uk/article71.pdfthe section on tracking says this. Next comes the test that strikes fear into all cartridge manufacturers - the Tracking Ability Test. This is simply a tone recorded with increasing amplitude ranging from a 40 microns peak-to-peak sinusoid cut in the vinyl to 100 microns in 10 micron steps. So why such a low score. This 50 microns seems low since the scale starts at 40 or is your scale different? Curious to know what tonearm/s were tried with this Ikeda 9 to get this result ? Disclaimer - I have no opinion on these Hi Fi test records. I have never used a test record or felt a need so this is new to me. I know there are a couple on the shelf somewhere as they came with a group of collector records I bought years ago. *********************************************** So, from this information it appears you like the Ikeda 9 cantilever less over his normal carts with cantilevers. But can I assume your favorite carts still have cantilevers ? As someone that owns an army of cartridges. I would be, .... I’m sure the other three "remarkable tonearm" owners 8^0 would be ,.... et al, very interested on your opinion - pros and cons of the Cantilever less ...and did you personally experience a London cart ? Thanks Chris |
Dear Chris,
You obviously mean London Decca? Also meant for those who
are obsessed with modifications. I bought ''the other'' cantileverless
kind : Ikeda 9 REX. No hum at all you know. You as my former
brother can borrow the precious. I myself am already donor but
also think that charity has its own limits. For Decca you can ask my
''other brother'' Don Griffiths. For some curious reasons he also
likes this cart.
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Who's the fourth ?
The magnetism of the "dark side" shows no bounds.
@nandric
Nikola - would you like to be part of our London project by ......ah ......being the London cartridge "donor" ?
Surely this fabled cartridge must occupy a spot in your "army" of cartridges ?
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Ahh, good to know that! :-) |
All 4 users of this tonearm can better in private correspondence
exchange their endless modifications opinions of this remarkable
tonearm.
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Frogman - appreciate the comments but we are all a bunch of audio crazies. There are worse things that we can be I guess 8^0 I have never seen a wire loom like yours. as posted on this thread previously. Frogmans ET 2 setup. https://photos.app.goo.gl/P3at6pmSPGeFFABZ6Nothing but audio passion makes that as far as I am concerned.
There was something about one of his posts that gave me the feeling that he is intrigued
For some reason I can’t get the memories of racing Go Carts out of my head, when l think of this London cartridge. There were some tremendous crashes into - most of the time a stack of rubber tires. But in between those crashes, it was an exhilarating ride. As far as the London on the ET. Someone send me one and I can put it on the ET 2.0 HP in room B. that is using an Sp10 MKII with Acutex 420str. https://photos.app.goo.gl/82pfNoQgwND5yhtz9The SP10 is in a minimal plinth held up by stainless steel columns which bolt into the base. The ET 2.0 HP model version is on a circular armpod that was cut from billet of brass. One screw on top for the ET2 and three holes on the bottom for the spikes or bolt directly into the base from underneath. The whole thing rests on a Audio Technica AT616 footers. The intent of this design from many years ago, was not to look pretty, but to eliminate Direct Drive motor and other vibrations. Build it and they will come ? Comes to mind now. . I have found that the long I beam - and single leaf spring if tightened just short of snug, provides action that is excellent damping with out of round records. That might work well with a London cart but obviously speculating now. ^ I realize that what this last paragraph is saying probably flies in the face of the person that "targets snug", but this tonearm is unique, and it "flies in the face" of all other tonearms anyway. |
