Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners

Will a London decca gold fit on 2.5 alu ?

Output: 0.3mV
Stylus: nude line contact 0.3 x 1.6mil
Compliance: 9 x 10-6cm/Dyne
Mass: 9g
Load Impedance: >40 ohms
Tracking: 1.75 to 1.8g

Nice cartridge. I had the original 7000 mounted on my ET2 for a short time during a period when my system was making the transition from all ss (Threshold, BEL) to all tube. My original 7000 was a very detailed cartridge which I much preferred to the other Scantech (Lyra Clavis and Spectral) cartridges that I tried around that time. The 7000 was a little warmer and sumptuous than the other two which I found to be way too zippy and lean, but in the context of my all ss/heavily modified Magnepan MGIIIA's there still wasn't enough "meat on the bones" for me. I highly recommend you try the magnesium arm wand. A single leaf spring I-beam will produce a "fuller" sound, but I usually end up with the double leaf spring for a more organized sound that is less "lumpy" in the bass. Good luck!

The way I level is by using test record with blank track.

I can't see how to setup corectly with out one.

I have been following this thread as I now have 2 ET 2's and a 1. Only one 2 running for now though. I have set up a audioquest 7000nsx and am being rewarded with great sound. Not sure of the specs of this older cartridge though so I was wondering if anyone had those and how you guys would recommend me setting this up. I only have the aluminum wand but am thinking of springing for another. And I am going to buy some more I beams with different springs.
Also Chris I believe we may be almost neighbours! I tried to email you but it bounced back.
If anyone has a accutrex for sale I could be tempted to purchase it.

Run away ET2 Spindle.

Indicates a problem with leveling, wiring or manifold.

Some options.

Leveling - the ET2 spindle in the manifold is extremely slippery. Almost feels friction-less. No bubble level is accurate enough. Level with Gravity only. I use a Blue Tac pancake on the lead weights and make the armtube free float with VTF 0.

Wiring - Push or Pull from the wiring as the spindle in manifold is very slippery. I have found where wire exits the armtube immediately down and over to your phono in a happy face loop is the least intrusive.

Location where the wire connects at the opposite side is at the mid-point of arm spindle travel.

Manifold -

Couple of things to try.

Take a draft leak detector pencil (bought at Home Depot for $5 dollars) and place near each end of the manifold. Is the air exiting creating similar flows or is one side more active? They should be the same.

Remove the manifold and check the torque on the screws. Ensure they are torqued the same. Check for water deposits of minerals in and around the holes, screws. Clean it out.

This pic was posted previously on this thread (from a friend)
Before and After Manifold Cleaning

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08-26-15: Pegasus
Interesting “facts discussion” about linear vs. radial tonearms, most have probably read it:

Are linear tracking arms better than pivoted arms?

Sadly mostly boring (ie. repeated, but skewed arguments)… but some interesting points.

Hi Pegasus - nice to hear from you again.

Re: Pivot versus Linear discussion.

IMO - Everyone that has been in this audio hobby for any length of time knows its all a "set up" game - vinyl. My personal experiences have been a good pivot arm set up well, will out perform a below average set up of an ET2. So in my opinion we need to be very careful with reviews and experiments, as they are based on that person's setup only and it doesn't represent other set ups. Rooms are different as is the gear right down to the TT setup and condition of the cartridige. No two are alike . So I say for all these professional reviewers who know this already.

THEY HAVE ALL SOLD A BIT OF THEIR AUDIO SOUL FOR SOME AUDIO DOUGH. ....heh heh heh ...

So its an individual basis thing just like all our systems. With that the better design always has the most potential. And potential for this audio hobby is defined to me as more ROPE for The Vinyl Hangman :^)

Still to this very day, FOR ME, Bruce Thigpen said it best. Re: Pivot Arms.

Page 46....... ET2 Manual

********************************************************
There is a force component (vector) that is directed toward the center of the record. It results from the stylus drag force vector not falling in line with the pivot point of the arm. This force pulls the tonearm inward and the stylus can be observed as bending outward.

THIS FORCE AND THE RESULTING BENDING CAN BE DEMONSTRATED BY CONNECTING A RUBBER BAND TO A PIVOTED ARM AROUND THE CARTRIDGE BODY AND PULLING IT STRAIGHT AHEAD (AWAY) FROM THE TONEARM. NOTE: THE MOTION OF THE TONEARM IS INWARD AND RESULTS IN THE BENDING OF THE RUBBER BAND (CANTILEVER).

*******************************************************

You guys with pivot arms should try it. put a rubber band around the cartridge on your pivot arm and pull. (Hey - not responsible for any beheaded styluses). Been there, done that. Watch and .......feel...... what happens. You will never again doubt why Antiskate is needed on a pivot arm.

Hi Styrk - welcome to the thread.
In addition to Banquo's comments pls see mine below.

I have a ET2 that Im trying to upgrade to a 2.5
but have problem running it on 7.5 psi. It was marked mpm

Firstly pls note that a ET 2.5 and HPM (High Pressure Manifold) are two different separate things. There are low pressure 2.5's out there. Banquo has one of them.

To upgrade to a 2.5 from a 2.0 (high or low pressure manifold) means sending your 2.0 manifold, its housing and 2.0 spindle to Bruce. He will return to you a 2.5 manifold and housing and 2.5 spindle. The VTA Block should not be separated from the housing. This way Bruce can ensure it works properly.

The 2.5 spindle is a bigger diameter and the hole in the manifold housing made bigger to accommodate the larger manifold and spindle diameter.

The larger 2.5 tube resonates at a lower frequency and a better design overall for low compliance cartridges. A better design can lead to more potential. But the 2.0 works with low compliance cartridges as well. Just requires more tweaking.

Any way to clean out the hole think there can be a bit of oil in them. This have a NOS upgrade kit came in plastikk bag and was a bit greasy. Have clean it a bit with alcohol

I have a feeling that is a bit clogged. What is the min working pressure for a mpm?

If it is a NOS upgrade kit the capillaries should be clean ?

See the maintenance cleaning procedures in the manual. You can start with isopropyl and a toothbrush.
There should be no oil in there. There may be some grease on the exterior of the rings for a smooth fitting.

Assuming MPM is as Banquo said from Bruce' note, a High Pressure Manifold ?

"Banquo363 - The initials on the 2.5 manifold are actually HPM and it stands for high pressure manifold. This means the pressure range is between 5-10 PSI but it could be higher if the person who purchased it asked for one to be used with a shop compressor."

I have said this before here. The best way IMO to find out what PSI your manifold was designed for by Bruce, if you bought a used one ....
First clean it out and make sure the capillaries are not clogged.
Make sure the pump/s is actually producing the expected PSI at the arm "NOT" at the pump.
Then start raising the PSI till it works well. Go one to 2 psi above.

Working well means all the way through but especially the last track when everything is level.
Use gravity to level the Spindle.

Does this make it clearer ? Ask any questions, we are here to help. We all started where you are now.

Welcome to the fun......

Banquo363.
Last night I wanted to test the manifold to see whether it alone was the issue. In my case, when everything is level and vtf is at 0, the arm always races down towards the inner grooves. I have to tilt the counterweight side up to prevent this--and this is when some binding occurs. For the test, what I did was put the manifold into the housing 'backwards' to see what effect that would have. The spindle now raced towards the outer grooves.

8^0

Be interested in Bruce' reply to this one .....

hi Styrk,

I believe I saw the auction for the manifold you are referring to. The seller told me about the 'mpm' and since I never hear of that I emailed Bruce about it.

Here's what he wrote back:

"The initials on the 2.5 manifold are actually HPM and it stands for high pressure manifold. This means the pressure range is between 5-10 PSI but it could be higher if the person who purchased it asked for one to be used with a shop compressor."

I took that to mean that there is no such thing as a 'mpm' manifold. So assume that it reads 'hpm'. I know of users who run their hpm at 19psi, so in the absence of knowledge about its history, you will want, for testing purposes, a pump that can deliver a range from 5-19psi.

A different explanation for what you are experiencing is this: the spindle that you are using is not properly matched to the manifold. Perhaps the user ordered the hpm alone, and for the auction bundled it together with the spindle s/he used with a standard pressure manifold. So, even though your pump is doing its job, the manifold/spindle combo you have is destined to fail.

The only guaranteed solution to the latter is to send your manifold back to Bruce and have him find a matching spindle. Other posters have reported ordering a hpm and that it worked fine with their existing spindle, so you could try that as well.

How do I know all this? Well I ordered a hpm last December and I have pretty much experienced every difficulty one can have. Bruce sent me a spindle last week that he thought might work (with no guarantees); it doesn't. Like yours I can get it to play a record, but it binds at various places, making for some poor sound.

Last night I wanted to test the manifold to see whether it alone was the issue. In my case, when everything is level and vtf is at 0, the arm always races down towards the inner grooves. I have to tilt the counterweight side up to prevent this--and this is when some binding occurs. For the test, what I did was put the manifold into the housing 'backwards' to see what effect that would have. The spindle now raced towards the outer grooves. That tells me there is some pressure asymmetry delivered by my manifold. Either something is clogged (unlikely since it is brand new and I've always had 3 filters in front of it) or the asymmetry is something that is addressed via a matched spindle (which I don't have). Or...?

Good luck.

Hi
I am new here and in need of some tips
I have a ET2 that Im trying to upgrade to a 2.5
but have problem running it on 7.5 psi. It was marked mpm
I have a felling that is a bit clogged. What is the min working pressure for a mpm?
Any way to clean out the hole think there can be a bit of oil in them. This have a NOS upgrade kit came in plastikk bag and was a bit greasy. Have clean it a bit with alcohol
Got it to a point where it works "just" 95% of the time.
outer and inner section can some time be problematic.

I have Wisa 300 pump makes to much to noisy and need to be move that is most likely to bring the 95 down to 0.
there will be a lose in pressure even in a stiff tube over 30 feet.

But before I work my way true all the pumps I need to be sure that I have a working 2.5

any tip how to figure out this one

With regards

Styrk

Interesting “facts discussion” about linear vs. radial tonearms, most have probably read it:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1266367593&openfrom&1&4&&st100
Sadly mostly boring (ie. repeated, but skewed arguments)… but some interesting points. A main point is the quotation of a High Performance Audio Review test in the 80's measuring much higher actual sideforces and deflection of the cantilever on a SAEC radial tonearm vs. an air bearing arm.
The reaction of the (radial) “experts”: Hilarious, ridiculous! The facts don't follow their invented orthodox belief, so the facts must be wrong! The reaction of other more pragmatic non scientifical audiophiles: This is only one situation, we must collect other… (measurements).
Experimental science means, one well set up experiment with a non expected measured outcome can expose any pre-existing contrary hypothesis as wrong. In this case the “excessive side-forces”. But what am I as a humble pragmatic thinker compared to the pope(s)?
Over most of the thread the effect of mass and bearing friction on a cantilever are confounded, and bearing stick vs. bearing friction isn't even mentioned. Neither are there attempts to define the magnitude of differences of (horizontal) friction of radial vs. air bearing arms. I think/suspect that even with the “lever advantage” the best radial arm may just quite cope with an air bearing. Horizontally that is. The rest is wrong thinking about the optimal horizontal mass aka. the desired horizontal resonance frequency – for best bass reproduction with lowest phase shift. The dynamic side forces on a cantilever are simply a result of friction (mostly non existant in an air bearing) and mass. Ie. they correlate with the horizontal resonance frequency – and are taking part in a compromise, where the sonic optimum lays much lower than audiophile orthodoxy.

here is an ET2 Ebay ad that came into my mail.
It is being sold by a seller for

"Parts, Repair, Restoration"

These ads can be a lot of fun and even like finding a diamond in the rough kind of thing sometimes; especially when the seller is not an audiophile and is not aware of what he is selling.

You can learn much about the ET2 tonearm from these parts ads. And lets face it.... there is no successful user/owner of this arm that does not learn how it actually works. Anyone disagree ? If you are a plug and play, dealer "set me up please" kind of turntable guy. Look for another tonearm.

Much about this tonearm can be learned from these types of ads because one is usually looking at valuable parts and not the whole thing as a package.
All parts outside of the actual manifold/spindle/VTA ARC block are interchangeable.

From Bruce' website.
"ARC block - This part is only sold and installed if the manifold housing is returned to the factory. Each arc block was individually machined during original assembly and there are no set tolerance parts available. Cost to replace the arc block - $300.00"

here is the pricing for reference of parts for those interested.

Parts Pricing

So the parts hanging off either spindle end, as well as the base plate, levers, handles cueing parts, could be bought as "outside" parts if still in good condition.
Determining the VTA block's condition when buying used, was discussed in detail on this thread. Remember the Brothel Post ?
Anyone interested in this should contact the seller to verify condition of the Rack's teeth.

This particular AD does say the base plate has been damaged by a previous owner who did not know how to set it up properly. Also those dreaded banned Lead weights seem to be missing from this package.

Happy Hunting

Wow...Gourmet "farm raised" ? trout for lunch.

Me thinks, he (Blue Herron) thinks, you fit in really well Frogman :^)

Frogman - I have no problem providing a $4 lunch to a Herron and the sight of it was more than worth it

$4.00 US dollars per 8 - 10 inch trout.
4 US bucks, is now $5.26 Canadian dollars. Does anybody need a new definition for slippery slope ?

A tidbit
Trout (lake trout variety ) are very sensitive to oxygen levels. Up our way since at least 1988 when we bought up there, all lake trout cottage lakes have been designated as limited future build. if someone owns just land (no cottage) whether 1/2 acre or even 200; they are only allowed to put up one building. Even one place can be challenging with the steep rocky terrain; but cottagers can be quite inventive.

Well, yesterday, as I sat on my porch swigging Moosehead Ale (really) and listened to Brahms' Fourth

Seems we like the same beer as well as tonearm :^)
One of my favs. Another one, also from Eastern Canada. (Down East as we call it here) Alexander Keith's India Pale Ale.
Although some Sleeman Original Draught has been going down really really well ...... with this hot, very humid summer.

Moosehead beer had a godmother as a founder...

from the website

Meet our founding mother
Back in 1865, Susannah Oland sailed from England to Nova Scotia with her family and, lucky for us, with her recipe for a rather delicious brown October ale. Cheers to that.

****while I am here I have always felt a visitor to the wild life that surrounds me. It is their place so I just try to fit in. ****

Thought about your comment yesterday. We stocked our pond with trout at the beginning of the summer, thinking that the bullfrogs could use some company :-) They are (were?) fairly mature fish at about 8-10 in. Well, over the course of the summer it appeared that we had fewer and fewer fish in the pond. We weren't sure since its a fairly large pond and quite deep. Our dog had earlier been very interested in a spot near the pond where I found a tail fin; "fee-fi-fo-fum". Well, yesterday, as I sat on my porch swigging Moosehead Ale (really) and listened to Brahms' Fourth I witnessed an extraordinary sight. As I looked out over the pond a Great Blue Herron came swooping down from the trees, dove into the pond and snagged one of my Rainbows. Beautiful creature and much larger than I imagined, never having seen one up close. What made me think of your comment is the fact that I had never seen one near my property, but only some distance away where there is a large lake. I have no problem providing a $4 lunch to a Herron and the sight of it was more than worth it, but makes me wonder just how well I am "fitting in".

Interesting how yours sound so different than mine do

Frogman I shot a short video (it was dark - 3:00am) with my phone and the sounds were the same as the last two clips in your links. 1) Frog croaking and 2) Bull frog. But the phone and my laptop as I mentioned earlier are limited in what they can achieve.

Just a thought
I have taken the same audio gear right down to the cables and placed into multiple rooms. This included different locations. building types even on different power grids. This was done due to job travel, moving to a different house, ...
The resulting music was always different and most noticeable to me in the bass (waves) and how they interacted with the room volume, materials, etc...
So, if we take two same frogs and relocate to two very different areas. Maybe one is placed in a marshy type environment with long grasses that help filter. The other near a smooth lake surrounded by hills. I think the two frogs will sound different to someone that is at least some distance away; so that he/she is able to hear the influence to the sound from the immediate surrounding area?

Is this influence/effect not known as "the Room" - in this Audio Hobby of ours ?

But if you put a microphone up close to a frog (before the surrounding area can influence their sound. They should sound the same, no ?

btw - I always have a problem with the use of effect and affect. :^(

Seems everyone wants to discuss component gear all the time on these forums. The Room aspect is rarely discussed it seems to me. I feel it deserves its own Audio category.

I am back up north again. I have title to a piece of property here and pay property taxes. But while I am here I have always felt a visitor to the wild life that surrounds me. It is their place so I just try to fit in.

Excellent analysis of the sound of your bullfrogs, Chris; worthy of a side bar in The Absolute Frog magazine. Or, should it be Fraaag? Interesting how yours sound so different than mine do. And amazing how such a small creature can produce such low frequencies. There may be a lesson in there (dissection?) for the Totem design team. My bullfrogs sound like this (go to the last of the five audio samples) and notice the similarity to the "twang" of the Brazilian percussion instrument in my previous clip.

http://soundbible.com/tags-bullfrog.html

BTW, if this is part of what retirement has to offer, I'm there! :-)

Oh you got me curious now Frogman.

So the bullfrogs where we are sound most like the Double Bass instrument to me, and are in A. But at what octave ?

Here is an interesting link for the Double bass.

Double Bass Frequency chart

We can see for A - the lowest octave is 27.5 hz. But our bullfrogs play at a higher octave. As octaves go up the frequency doubles.

So I played around on the computer this morning. The bull frogs are really close to this note.

Push the A Piano key

I then did an internet search sampling bass Hz on the internet.

110 HZ

Damn - aren't they at 110 hz !

Now here is the crazy gear aspect of this.

My Lenovo laptop built in speakers CAN'T play this note. It can only be heard (110 hz) with my old pair of full size headphones plugged into the Lenovo laptop.

ok... I need to be careful here. If my wife catches me having this much fun she will give me another PRA-ject to do.

Those frogs are the lowest. Eh?

Frogman - I am typing while listening to a performance by half a dozen bullfrogs each making a sound that is remarkably like this:

How fitting. A post about the music of "frogs" from Frogman.
Ours resonate at Double Bass A :^)

Very good explanation of the pronunciation of "project"! I was, of course, kidding re projects. I have so many unfinished ones waiting for retirement that it's not even funny; Forsell, ET2/Forsell shootout, Acutex cart cocobolo body, among others. My wife, like you, is a project manager and she loves her work. I did, however, have to put my foot down and ask that I not be presented with monthly pie charts of our expenses :-)

Although our pond upstate is not a lake, I am typing while listening to a performance by half a dozen bullfrogs each making a sound that is remarkably like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLOgAjPtA35NR28TypURaO-giLn9VMmw8S&v=nCAA2fEHaa4

Frogman - Does that qualify as a "project"? :-) Never knew that this hobby involved "projects".

Canadians pronounce it PRO-ject. Proooooooo
Americans pronounce it PRA-ject. Praaaaaaaaa

Can't tell you how many presentations I did in the US when the room would look at me kind of funny; and not just because of how I dressed.
After a few (presentations) I just gave in and started saying PRA-ject....:^(
Then the Canadian clients would get on me about it.

My bad Frogman. Personal work baggage using the word project, coming from too many years doing project management.
A project to me is any activity that has a start, but does come to an end. It's temporary.
How many audiophile activities does this describe ? I see setting up ones over all music room and gear as a series of mini inter-related activities (projects). All working together toward a common goal - in this case making music for ourselves .

I typed this out as I listened to your music link. thanks.
It brought out in me some strong images and emotions of the many aspects of lake life.

Chris, had almost forgotten about those pics. What the pics don't show is that the wire loom is the fourth different type of wire that I have used for my ET2. The AudioNote silver wire in the pic is the fourth, last, and best in my setup and for my tastes. The other three were Vandenhul silver clad copper, Cardas and Discovery. Does that qualify as a "project"? :-) Never knew that this hobby involved "projects". I always thought that it was about assembling a system or making a change of some kind in that system and simply asking oneself: does that change bring the sound of my system closer to the sound of music; or take it farther away? Who knew?

Sounds like a great time by the lake. Your account made me think of "The Lake"; the second movement of John Adams' "My Father Knew Charles Ives". A tone poem of sorts that tells the story of a young John Adams vacationing lakeside and listening to the sounds of his father's dance band wafting across the lake. Interesting piece of music.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wriG62OtvTo

Slaw, my friend, with all due respect, you've got to get a grip. From my vantage point there is a very strong passive-aggressive bent in the way that you try to have a dialogue; that doesn't work too well for me. Listened to this earlier today (with my ET2, of course). Love YouTube however; no high expectations about sound quality, just the music.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRu18VpYEXk

CtO517, couldn't agree more, The 2 speakers I mainly use both have sloped fronts , time alignment , as its often referred to.
Both the Meadowlarks and Gallos have only 1 capacitor to protect the tweeter .
When you get into complex crossovers IMO it can be done but the cure is usually worse that the disease .

07-13-15: Schubert
We probably don't know 20% of the variables in audio and most likely never will.
I had occasion few years ago to watch one of the acknowledged
best symphony space designers work on a multi-million upgrade to a hall, he said at the end of the day its cut and paste.

Schubert - an observation. food for thought
Its been my personal experience in seeing/hearing performances, and when I played trombone that the bass section players are always in the back.
Interesting then ? when it comes to reproduction of this music in an audiophile music room; my experience has been that speaker manufacturers put the bass drivers in front of the midrange/tweeters as the bass waves are much different - slower. This is very evident with both my Quad 57's and B&W 801 Matrix s3 monitors. Now if the drivers are all on one even plane I imagine the same magic is being accomplished within the electronics circuitry.

hmm...

Hi Guys -what a month July was.
First half of summer over. Been away.... up north (for me), listening to mostly natural wild sounds (music) amplified by the lake.
Imagine hearing people have a normal conversation 1 kilometer away from you. The magic of sound carrying on a still lake surrounded by hills, cliffs, mountains . This gives new meaning to the dog barking on Rogers Waters - Amused to Death album.
Back for a few days then the second half starts for me. The good lord willing.

Some comments from some of the posts here.

Re: Lead discussions. IMO Any experienced audiophile that can still hear, should be able to determine the benefits and limitations of using lead or other materials in their own systems. With that, lead is a banned substance in many countries including Canada.

The ET2 manual carries this warning.

The lead counterweights used in the tonearm can be handled infrequently without cause for concern. Prolonged handling of lead and exposure to skin should be accompanied by good personal hygiene procedures. Wash hands after handling. Do not allow children to handle to ingest these weights. If one is swallowed by anyone induce vomiting and refer to a physician.

07-11-15: Geoffkait
Pierre of Mapleshade used to employ a lot of solid lead at CES and in his recording studio. However, after buying into the whole lead thing, including solid lead he has since recanted and no longer employs lead. Even my Arcici stand that employed lead bars sounded more open and natural with the lead bars removed.

Geofffkait - welcome to the thread.

Makes me wonder (a little) if the removal of lead becomes a business decision - increased Sales Potential for products to countries that ban lead. Just saying.
This hobby is all about personal setup; always has been. My experiences have been I can make any material work to a certain level of satisfaction and live with it. Some materials however (in each of our individual setups) will work better and give you more "ROPE" for this crazed "hobby" of ours.

BTW - For those unaware GeoffKait was "sort of" of responsible for my being banned from Audiogon by my wife during the late winter listening season.

if interested in the soap opera like details follow this link.

All is forgiven Geoff ... :^)

**********************************************************************************

Slaw - Why is it that as Ct0517 pointed out recently that this site has had over 1 million hits, but IMO, there are really very few responders? This, to me, is very troubling. I've tried to change this but with my socials skills very lacking, I doubt if I helped at all.

Slaw, do you know how many different people are on this thread /have posted on it ?

Some stats as of this morning 08 02 2015

Slaw - It seems, in this context, a good argument can be made that this forum as it relates to this topic and the value we or the audio reviewer places on a particular recording or equipment is most likely a waste of time, unless we place innocuous terms/phrases such as... "this may be" or "you could hear this" or "you may have a different result" in reference to what we think others may find from our descriptions of our own findings within our own systems.

Slaw - If we drill down one more level, all ET2 owners on this thread have a unique point of reference (or lack thereof). It happens to be the most tweak-able tonearm I have ever owned. None of our individual ET 2.0 ET 2.5 setups are identical. That makes things even more complicated .....doesn't it ?

I think it really all boils down to people using tips from generous posters here; using them to their liking. People that post tips on this thread do so in an unselfish manner and not for profit. Just sharing info. They ask nothing in return. btw - I have received numerous pm's from folks (ET2 owners/non-owners) who enjoy the thread but are too shy to post or prefer not to.

In regards to your comments on Frogman's audio projects; Frogman was kind enough to share a couple pics of his setup here.
Can be seen in the 2014 Audiophile Wrap.

In this post the first two pics are Frogman's setup.

I took the liberty of nicknaming the pics the Mona Lisa of ET2 Tonearm wire setup.

Frogman's pics show multiple projects.... imo.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

and...

A friend sent me this interesting audiophile article link. I found it a good read, honest, mostly on the mark too.... So I share it with all of you

here.

Happy Listening

(keyboard feels sticky)

Frogman: Is/are/do these posts meet your requirements of being "succinct"?

If not, I'm still up for a challenge.

This post is of coarse, assuming my other posts, have since posted, which is doubtful, but hopeful.

In another thread, you responded by initially saying... be careful what you wish for, and I think you said, "man up". Something like that?

Anyway, if all of my posts come through, and come through in order, I think you'll get the (gist) of this remark, as will others.

Frogman states:... "If they, (referring to my comments above), don't resonate as authoritative enough with you, then simply ignore them; I'm ok with that". Yet, by his own logic, my comments must have had some/enough effect on Frogman that he (chose) to comment, or challenge my past comments, instead of ignoring them as he wants me to do. In other words, he chose not to ignore my comments that he disagreed with, yet wants me to do the opposite of what he professes! Please, someone, tell me the logic in this?

I also love a challenge!

I would just like some sort of factual, informative, and/or reasonable resolution to all of the above, (I hope all of my responses have/will be posted).

Ct0517: I gave you/this thread an out, remember? lol.

I have re-read all of this again. In all due respect to Frogman, I do take some offense to his referring to my post as a "rant". (Do I detect some passion here?) I readily admit I lack the ability he has to make my point in an efficient manner, but to my credit, I acknowledge my faults and accept them.

This post is in reference to Frogman's read of my challenging him to share any projects in support his posts in which he responded as my essentially saying... (his lack of sharing any projects he's done, being a perceived lack of "authority" to challenge or have others be confident in his postings). I suppose this is one way to look at it. Another way, may be in order for all of us, who don't know one another, and are trying to figure out all of the member's posts, what they mean, the context of the posting members' systems, and all of the other ways out there that are feeding our addiction and how we all translate this information into what is relevant to the person reading all of this.

This may be off in another direction completely but, (IMO). there is a correlation here to the current subject above.

When manufacturers of lps or equipment exclaim their product is the best or from the original master tapes and the best sounding ever and we then purchase that product, and get a different result, what drives our opinion of them from that point on? What effect does it take? Do you not buy from said manufacturer again. Will you never even look/read an advertisement from said manufacturer in the future?

I can only assume that they, (in the context of their systems), have concluded their positive, aforementioned, stated opinion. I'm sure, at some point, we've purchased a product based on the manufacturer's opinion of said product. Or...after researching a specific product that one thinks may be in their top two or three components they wish to evaluate and subsequently go out to audition. Then, based on that audition, (in the context of that dealer's system), the component is then purchased and when inserted into the buyer's system, and it doesn't meet the buyer's standards, does the buyer stop all further contact with that particular dealer/manufacturer. (These dealers/manufacturers are confident in their opinions in the context of their individual systems). Does this somehow make that dealer/manufacturer irrelevant from that point on, even though the dealer has said it's the best sounding product that he's heard or the best match for your system's needs based on the info you've given him? Does the manufacturer suddenly find that no form of advertising will be available to them, ever? Do reviewers suddenly make a pact that they will no longer review any product made buy this specific manufacturer from that point on?

What I've done is the same thing, it seems to me, except for the fact that I am not trying to sell anything. I'm trying to put out information that others can hopefully use based on my extensive posts, passion, experience and the fact that I've made my system available so one can actually see for themselves from where I draw my opinions. That system (is) my reference. I'm as confident with how my system sounds as are the above, in all of the scenarios laid out above. Without confidence, there really is not much else other than meaningless talk.

Frogman: I appreciate your pointed criticism and hopefully I can try to become more self-aware of my failings. I also appreciate your willingness to respond.

I re-read your post above from 7/13 and this is now sinking in more. Since, as you say, all of our systems are inaccurate and we are all trying to find better ways of handling vibrations, it seems to me that the only informative way to do this is in the context of our own systems. Therefore regarding a portion of your statement... "in the context of our own systems"... I believe this is (all of our reference') as it relates to all of our posts.

Having said this, It seems to me that my trying to explain what I've done and the difference that was made, was/is probably really not relevant at all to any one else, because of the fact that my reference is taken from my experience within the context of my system. In that light, why are we even posting our experiences here if they are not relevant to another who has a completely different system/room/ear? It seems, in this context, a good argument can be made that this forum as it relates to this topic and the value we or the audio reviewer places on a particular recording or equipment is most likely a waste of time, unless we place innocuous terms/phrases such as... "this may be" or "you could hear this" or "you may have a different result" in reference to what we think others may find from our descriptions of our own findings within our own systems. ( I think this is why I cancelled my subscriptions a long time ago), also, (This may go to my posting elsewhere that there's no better resource than discovering things on your own.) I think my passion and my wanting to share that passion and my findings always over-rides my ability to express these things in a way that others would find engaging and enjoyable to hear/read.

Slaw, I made the comment in another thread of yours that you tend to personalize these discussions too readily. Well, you are true to form. To ignore your rant would probably be wise, but ultimately way too easy. I like a challenge :-)

Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about or trying to say. I don't mind being drawn into a dialogue, but you're going to have to be more succinct and clear about what the issue is for you. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the issue for you is that since you are not aware of any of my "projects" that my supposed "authority" is thrown into question. I have news for you: I claim no authority in audio matters. I would respectfully suggest that you not put so much stock in trying to be an authoriy on these topics; express your thoughts and opinions and leave it at that. If it's a worthy idea, the dialogue will follow.

I stand by my comments. If they don't resonate as authoritative enough to you, then simply ignore them; I'm ok with that.

Here it is, with all due respect to Frogman, I love his views and especially his thoughtful writings, his knowledge and the way those writings draw us all in... for the life of me, I still haven't, just one time, heard Frogman state one project that supports the authority/respect, that would be appreciated and wanted by all, (including me) here. If, by reading this, Frogman decides to clue us in, I'd be "all ears" and have even more respect for his knowledgeable writings. If, even after this, the possibility of this would blow me away, I'd then ask, "Why, why did it take so long for us or the newbies here, to finally get some sort of "personal connection" with you that up until now, we all were looking for"?

I suspect, Frogman may have had another life in the Audio Industry.

Schubert: I don't know you but take your comment at face value. This kind of goes to my over-riding point of late.

I'm trying to start/have a discussion but am met with negativity (to a degree) and the fact that I let my personal thoughts go out (I had hoped to get some sort of similar thoughts from others), and kind of had them squashed... This is the environment that is the (norm) here, so it seems.

Why is it that as Ct0517 pointed out recently that this site has had over 1 million hits, but IMO, there are really very few responders? This, to me, is very troubling. I've tried to change this but with my socials skills very lacking, I doubt if I helped at all.

Richardkrebs: I find your last post to be very relevant and more over, logical! I don't feel in any way, (from my reading/understanding of what Frogman just posted), that his response/conclusion/or any history, suddenly becomes (justified), regarding any projects (we are all unaware of) he may have undertaken. I do hold out that I may have somehow (missed) something. If that is the case, please let me know?

I still haven't received any response to my (wondering) if others have found similar/any results in using different materials in the similar situations that I described above? Thank you.

If my perception regarding my statement above is wrong, I'd really like for someone to explain to me how I may have come to a wrong conclusion?

Hi all.

I really want to respond to each & every post made since my last one. However, I feel I need to preface any remarks I make from now on. Here is that preface:

(1) I've tried to make my journey as open as possible. Over the years, I've read & DO read others' postings, and while I don't doubt their relevance, I wonder if (my) postings of late have any real (relevance) to you all. I say this because it seems to me they have "divided responses", and are taken out of context.

(2) I'm a passionate Audiophile! I believe there is most likely no doubt about this. This passion is the essence of all of my postings.

(3) I do realize that I lack basic social skills that are prevalent in my posts. This lack of social skills should (I hope) not be taken as a lack of respect for, or a lack of the fact that I realize what others may be saying in regards to my posts and (my not taking their opinions to heart).

(4) I, unlike several here, opted to make most, if not all, of my current system, ( in the past), a part of those posts. I currently have deleted it. I believe that this was/is important!

(5) I've had other posts recently that have come under intense scrutiny.

My goal as of late has been to bring forth subjects that others dare to talk about and in all honesty, IMO, (this site has needed some influx of pointed questions) that have enough relevance in order to bring out some "member thinking".

My latest post regarding the affect or non-affect of differing materials on the audio signal has intrigued me.

Frogman's latest post regarding this, leaves me wondering if he really understands or has ever had personal experience in testing differing materials. I have always respected his even, controlled, knowledgeable opinion, as I've referenced in earlier posts, also, (in my personal emails to him, I've referenced this fact as well), but I have to wonder regarding his latest post, (that seems to cover every aspect, whether it's pro or con, on this subject), he seems to want to make his point, regardless of whichever side one comes from!) IMO, he's covering ALL bases.

I feel it is now necessary to make this a pointed question as follows:

(1) Frogman references my DIY sandboxes and there lack of, IMO, their ability to deal with vibrations. Frogman states that the vibrations are most likely to be dispersed as (heat). This either, may be fact or most likely be fact or may not apply at all... the FACT is that in (my) personal tests that I tried to describe, I was not at all impressed and in the context of my tests that I decribed, my DIY sandboxes failed. I have to ask Frogman the following... please enlighten me/us all, the projects you've undertaken/experienced, in which your comments would have greater relevance? A simple question?

(2) Frogman's post regarding Richardkrebs' use of epoxy in the context of (his) project... this is really what I was trying to express... that, it's all in how we use materials in a certain project and how those materials respond in the (way we use them), that ultimately makes (the difference) in the (context of our own system).... Am I, so, out of the social conscience, that my earlier remarks are taken any other way? If so, I really want someone to explain this to me. Please.

(3) I tried to ask/inquire of others regarding their projects in order to gain (insight), but I don't feel I really received any helpful answers. I thought my questions were relevant and my willingness to provide my past projects' information would have garnered a response from those who were "like minded". I seem to have failed here as well.

(4) Frogman says that , and I'm paraphrasing, that he feels that it's not possible to "overdamp" electronics or cables. I completely disagree!. It really seems that even Goeffkait's project reveals this, moreover, my years of applying various amounts of differing materials on my, and in some cases, inside of my audio equipment, has left me with the complete opposite result from Frogman's comment/results. I'd like to know more about Frogman's testing/history that has led him to make these statements and that others' follow.

(5) Frogman's question: "How can eliminating spurious vibrations be a bad thing?" Here's how. In my system, over years of testing various materials, in various components, I find that statement to be more than "half-hazard" and one that really isn't worthy of Frogman's apparent knowledge and intellect....

In one of my past subwoofer experiments... A Mirage ,single 12" woofer box, using a small amount of lead shot on the top revealed good results. (The best results were upon using brass cones on the bottom.) I found that increasing the amount of lead shot, muddied the bass, the bass was less musical. (Probably, twenty years ago). I'm currently performing similar projects, (that result in the same effect) now! This was, as I said, early on and have conducted more relevant tests but since we are starting from (zero), this is my first response/question to you.

So, Frogman, while I DO respect you, I still have to wonder, based on the above items, how you draw your conclusions and what history/projects you've performed that have led you to those conclusions? Thanks.

We probably don't know 20% of the variables in audio and most likely never will.
I had occasion few years ago to watch one of the acknowledged
best symphony space designers work on a multi-million upgrade to a hall, he said at the end of the day its cut and paste.

Frogman.

I agree 100%. IMO it is impossible to over damp, if our objective is to keep the piece of gear or part "still" and there are very few pieces of the audio chain that aren't meant to be still.
It is however very easy to incorrectly apply materials in an attempt to damp that just shift the movement signature of the piece, often making it move for longer after the initial excitation.

The method of bonding the damping material to the structure is critical in this. I experimented with hardener and adhesive ratios on my TT build to find the best hardness of the epoxy. It appears that the optimum is when the adhesive is more or less equal in hardness to the parent material AND when the absolute minimum amount of glue is used.

A couple of thoughts:

Slaw, vibrations are not necessarily reflected back to the components as in the case of your sand boxes. The energy turns to heat and is dissipated as such; perhaps no all of it, but I would imagine a substantial amount of it does. The issue of wether vibrations are reflected back, drained, stored or dissipated and how each possibility affects the sound of our systems is still, I think, not fully understood. Richarkrebs' comment about using the correct epoxy to glue lead is fascinating and goes to my contention that wether we want to admit it or not, a lot of what we do with "vibration control" and how it's effects are perceived is completely system dependent and often no more than a type of "tone control". While I can understand how vibrations can affect the performance of transducers in absolute terms, it seems to me that as concerns electronics and cables it is NOT possible to "overdamp"; other than in the context of a given system. When the perceived effect of damping (or of not damping) is negative it's an indication of tonal inaccuracy in that component or somewhere else in the system. How can eliminating spurious vibrations be a bad thing? I addition, tonal issues affect how we perceive rhythm and timing and even soundstaging. As great as our audio systems sound, they are still far from truly accurate; as in the sound of live music which is why these perceived effects are relevant.

I lined the entire subwoofer with epoxy'd lead shot. Another lining of felt was applied to the lead shot.

I'll leave you all with this "simple test". If you have a component shelf, that, upon your touching it, is vibrating, then you apply pressure...

This makes the vibration go way? To an extent. Where does it go? It has to go back into from where it came, right? I can think of no other option.

"Food For Thought"

Geoffkait: So far, regarding your latest response, involving the Arcici stand, is not really, in all due respect, relevant in this discussion (that has been described by two of us, who have posted our own individual projects based on our (own) results), then our ultimate findings. I hope you can see/accept the difference. I'd love to hear more in detail, any projects you've accomplished vs. manufacturers end products,.. not manufacturers products vs. other manufacturers products. If you feel that my statement above, slighted you in any way, please let us know and accept my apologies.

Ct0517: Turns out, I have quite a bit to say. I can see this thread going into another subject, altogether. Should I/we start another thread, based upon the association with the one you started?

Geoffkait: I believe this whole conversation is well served by ones' projects laid out in more detail. This is what I feel Richardkrebs and I have tried to lay out for everyone here. I appreciate and await your more detailed responses. Thank you!

Goeffkait: I had the same stand as you described, unfortunately, I cannot describe my listening results as I sold it a long time ago. I do wish you'd go into more detail regarding your conclusions VIA your obvious systems' reflections of these comments. Thank you!

Taking the thoughts above to the extreme.. think of using the very best material directly under a spinning platter/bearing, that one has found in their system testing to be their most favorable. Taking that material solely as the platters' base and machining it in the very best way in order to drain resonance away, my feeling is the end sound would not be very pleasing. This goes to my/others' over-riding point of the delicate balance in mating/using differing materials in order to achieve best sound. Resonance is a necessary factor in good sound. The controlling of resonance is the on-going/hard to grasp issue.

Geoffkait: I would like to know how & in what particular way you chose to use the lead shot in your aforementioned subwoofer project? Thanks!

...Without (a materials' resonant property,) there would not be very much substantive discussion in all things audio related.

Geoffkait: Your experience and your way of dealing with the results, really gave me a "belly laugh". Thanks for that!

I don't want to in any way disregard Richardkrebs personal results. I believe it would be half-hazard and wrong to do so. I respect his thoughts and his journey. I find all of this fascinating and don't want to, in any way, discourage others from posting on their results.

My feeling regarding different materials used, is that each individual material has a resonant frequency response (in terms of audio reproduction) that is really what the end user hears. How these different materials are applied is the ultimate question.

My current motor enclosure has extensive use of lead shot in two ways. The bottom surface is encased with small gauge lead shot ( around 3/4", tapped down, and it's surrounding area is coated with a spray-on damping material, the sides of the enclosure have been drilled out at various intervals and filled with epoxy/lead shot). You'd think it would be fairly dead but that really isn't the case. It seems that the shot hasn't "dealt" with the vibrations caused by the spinning motor in this instance. It has "re-directed" them. IMO.

I recently tried three Stillpoints Minis (directly under) this enclosure and was not at all impressed. The vibration/resonance was brought back up through the enclosure. I then decided to use the brass cones that are bonded to the bottom ( the original design) for the "drain" needed to deal with the fact there is a motor spinning in this application. This was the better coarse of action.

It's all about the best way for built up energy/resonance to be drained while the materials used/their "end sound" and the application of these materials that matters, as I see it. This is what Richardkrebs is saying as are we all. We have differing ways to get to the best sound. Ultimately, It will be our own listening biases that make the decision for us. Thanks for the responses!

(As an aside, my current speakers Usher BE-718 have their internal side walls lined with lead plating. I'm happy with the sound and have not tried in any way to put my own imprint here on their sound other than speaker stands.)

Pierre of Mapleshade used to employ a lot of solid lead at CES and in his recording studio. However, after buying into the whole lead thing, including solid lead he has since recanted and no longer employs lead. Even my Arcici stand that employed lead bars sounded more open and natural with the lead bars removed.

Geoff
It is up to you to decide the right or wrong of it.
As I said earlier, and I was pulling my punches, lead shot has not been good in my experience.
Solid lead, properly bonded to the parent material, is a different story however.

Cheers