Thanks Ct0517 & BdP! I am wondering that the conceptually very similar London air bearing arm was "built for London" cartridges... (based on the Cartridge Mans's Conductor arm) - it must have functionally similar unscreened wiring, at least these four "naked" unscreened (or five!) wires without screen for about 15cms.
Could it be that it has something to do with a missing ground link from the arm to the preamp - does the original ET2 wiring have a 5th wire? Mine certainly does, but I use a different wiring & routing to the original one. |
Thanks Ct0517 & BdP! I am wondering that the conceptually very similar London air bearing arm (based on the Cartridge Mans's Conductor arm), with similar wiring, and at least these four "naked" unscreened (or five!) wires without screen for about 15cms, is the recommended arm for the London cartridges. It want hum, I'm shure (not the cartridge :-).
I suspect it's something to do with a missing ground link from the arm to the preamp. Does the original ET2 wiring has a 5th wire? Mine certainly does, but I have a different wiring & routing to the original one. |
Frogman - With the ET2 the ground noise was completely unacceptable. Of course, I tried every conceivable "fix" to no avail. Still, when I listened through the noise, the Decca magic was there. I did not hear (as one might expect) tracking issues any worse than with the other arms; except in very demanding orchestral passages.
.....All this was before I went direct to preamp with continuous run of tonearm wire. Now, with the continuous run and naked wire the noise is horrible and even worse. Yes...but once one has **successfully** run naked through the woods with the bears. There is never going back to wearing clothes. :^) I found that dealing with interference a lot like the James Bond movies; you know where he is trying to lift the diamond from the vault - while keeping from being burned/destroyed by the laser beams. The laser beams represent this interference. ** With the stylus on the still record (not moving) unmute and slowly raise volume. 4 strands of phono wire behind the gear rack. Move the first wire strand a little this way - oh the noise! - a little this way - noise gone. A small quick dab of blue tac to keep it in place. Next strand please. 3 more times..... The success of these James Bond maneuvers are highly dependent on having good access to the back of your gear. If your set up is one that to accomplish the above would require you to become a temporary contortionist ? Forget-about-it .....Running naked through the woods I mean... Stick to shielded cables and a more closed in sound. fwiw It was impossible for me to set up my pivot arms in this fashion as the wiring played havoc with the pivot arm tubes action (wanting to race to the spindle + antiskating) I believe the ET2's big advantage (even over other linear trackers) is the Freedom it gives you (lots of rope for the Audio Hangman) to experiment with wiring. It doesn't need the wiring for damping like others. But then if its operation is not well understood - the wiring also becomes the main reason for its downfall - Achilles Heel. 10-26-15: Pegasus
...... The wiring is an issue for sure, but the EM-field situation is actually the cause, and the noise is the symptom. And the ET2 / wiring / Decca system seems to be very sensitive. Detecting emi with an am radio. Found this to be a really good primer on Ground Noise, EMI or RF - for those unaware. Ground Noise or RF 10-26-15: Bdp24
The Londons made since they have had four pins are better in numerous ways than the older three pin versions. Not only less noise, but different stylus profiles, improved tracking, tighter assembly standards, etc. There are now three different models, the main difference between them being the design and construction of the cartridge body housing, the moving parts being very similar. Thanks for this info Bdp24. Think I may have have found my next cartridge, if when I decide / need to acquire a new cartridge one day. |
Thanks a lot Frogman! The wiring is an issue for sure, but the EM-field situation is actually the cause, and the noise is the symptom. And the ET2 / wiring / Decca system seems to be very sensitive. What turntable do you use, and how close are other power supplies? |
The Londons made since they have had four pins are better in numerous ways than the older three pin versions. Not only less noise, but different stylus profiles, improved tracking, tighter assembly standards, etc. There are now three different models, the main difference between them being the design and construction of the cartridge body housing, the moving parts being very similar. |
Pegasus, I tried a Decca "London" in my ET2 years ago. What I can tell you is that the problems that I encoutered with this pairing had more to do with grounding issues that I was never been able to resolve. I still own that Decca (three pins/shared ground pin) and for reasons that I cannot explain the only arm that I have been able to use it in with marginally acceptable levels of hum/buzzing was the Grado "Signature" arm that I had years ago. With the ET2 the ground noise was completely unacceptable. Of course, I tried every conceivable "fix" to no avail. Still, when I listened through the noise, the Decca magic was there. I did not hear (as one might expect) tracking issues any worse than with the other arms; except in very demanding orchestral passages. The fabled Decca immediacy and explosive dynamics were there and something almost indescribable that says this is what live music sounds like. Very frustrating experience because of the noise problem. All this was before I went direct to preamp with continuous run of tonearm wire. Now, with the continuous run and naked wire the noise is horrible and even worse. Every once in a while I will take that old Decca out again and try "one last time"; no better. Aargh! Have wanted to try one of the new generation Deccas for some time. |
Hi ye all! Did anybody ever try a Decca in the ET2.5 (or ET2 arm)?
I once did with an ET one and was not blown away - it didn't quite fit, but this was with a rel. light subchassis turntable, which acerbates several problematic aspects: High horizontal, quite low vertical compliance (one third!). Subchassis resonance above the horizontal resonance frequency of the arm/cartridge system.
I assume, but don't know, that using the decoupled counterweight could help here really. The question being:
Which stiffness, which weight/distance.
My feeling with decoupling and the rel. high compliance in the horizontal plane goes into the direction of
far out weight, with medium to low stiffness spring.
But I'd like to hear of real experiences, not virtual ones, or concepts. Of the latter, I have enough myself :-) |
Fall is in the air. Felt like shopping this morning. Here are Four opportunities Gents and (Ladies) First one in the US. Damn that US dollar. A Base ET2 with the HPM (manifold) version (from the description). Includes damping trough You can tell it is a base ET2 and not the ET 2.5 by the overlapping (over the spindle) counterweight cap. The parts look clean, clean, clean .... Comes with extra leaf spring I Beams. But they appear to be all singles. Those on the thread that have possibly been confused by our discussion of this advanced setup - see the pics in the ad. *************************** Second One - ITALY ET 2.0 that was upgraded to an 2.5 (according to the seller in the ad) Google translation is also my friend :^) Not sure if it is a HPM model. Ask the seller. *************************** Third Opportunity - USA A Base ET2 - includes damping trough. Part of an elaborate setup. Here the pump has more value than the arm to the seller. (I like his speakers which can be seen - just saying) *************************** Fourth Opportunity - GREECEThis fellow has already had 9 offers according to the ad. A Base ET2 with High Pressure manifold and includes damping trough. Have a look at the manifold. It has a Green bubble level on it. You CANNOT do the final set up of the arm this way. (This will not take into account the wire influence) Just saying....:^) Happy Hunting & (not affiliated with any of the ads) |
Pegasus, A real audiophile will get the picture in canvas, to avoid glare. :) |
The woman in Frogman's link is unique and special. It's obvious to me that she knows how to handle a record. After all do you want your expensive albums to really end up like this?Probably a fun night..but I think you will hate yourself in the morning. Seriously now, is there a finer sight than a woman that knows how to properly handle a record ? This is very important as it also means she will be able to handle something else really well too. :^) I of course refer to sensitive Audiophile feelings and fragile ego's. What were "you" thinking? |
Regarding your photograph, Frogman...
A real audiophile is one who looks first at the turntable and tonearm in the background. I - almost - did.
:-) |
|
Frogman
Personally, I like a little mileage :-) I also have no problem with a little mileage...as long as properly maintained, .....and with records. :^) |
Slaw, could you tell me which of my post you find offending and maybe why? I have no problem with disagreement. But I know sometimes my tiredness of repeated misinformation pushes me for words that fit my feelings. :-/ |
I do own that beast (the Timeter aridyne 2000), it's a wonderful beast. I use it to concurrently run an et2 (HPM), an et 2.5, and a pneumatic isolation platform. No problem.
Unless it's a motor problem, pretty much everything else about these pumps is user serviceable. All the needed parts are available to order. Timeter wouldn't sell me parts (I have no idea why not) but rather sent me to a distributor--Mercury Medical. They were very nice, so in the end it was no big deal--and definitely worth the trouble. |
Dorothy's technology is definitely eminent. Personally, I like a little mileage :-) |
So is that guy in the video on anything Frogman ...or maybe his pants too tight for the family jewels ? Chick Magnet ?? :^( Not.... I am getting a lot of mileage out of Dorothy ... don't you think ? SLAW
Ct0517: Regarding Timeter pumps.....with all due respect to Ct0517, the over-riding issue with Timeter has been that they "farm" out their products to sub-contractors, IE: wholesalers. This, in of itself is a major issue. So, in order to get a part or to try and talk with a human,... this takes a whole lot of patience and time. Additionally, you'll have to deal with the (sub-contractors, wholesalers)... (a Major Pain In The Ass) x 10!
(My personal experience had me making a claim on my credit card against the sub-contractor/wholesaler). Sorry things did not work out for u Slaw. At least it was with a $100- 200 bought used pump ? I mean it could have been worse. I don't know. How about an expensive record cleaning machine ? As always use discretion to ensure the condition is good. Buy from a trusted seller. The Aridyne Timeter Line work great on the ET 2 delivering Arizona like air. Timeter is part of the Allied Healthcare group. To talk with a live person about parts and support just call them direct. Allied Healthcare1720 Sublette Avenue St. Louis, MO 63110 314-771-2400 800-444-3954 They are very generous with their time. Have a look at the one on the left.A'gon'er Banquo363 owns that beast. |
|
Slaw, sometimes the best course of action is to look the other way and ignore silly provocations. In spite of that, and as I have said before, I continue to feel that you may have some interesting input for this thread given the passion for music and this hobby that you have demonstrated at times. It is for that reason, and in the hope of keeping things on a more positive track, that I will address your concern.
Ever since my post of 8-03-15, and one which seems to have caused you some consternation, we have discussed or touched upon the subjects of diction, bullfrogs, herrons, wives, beer (and the provenance of one), the cost of trout, and even the fact that it is drummers who get the best chicks. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, we also discussed silly things like musicians' timing, musicianship in general and received invaluable set-up tips and a great deal of very interesting data for and about the world's greatest tonearm; AND welcomed two new participants to the thread. Is it any wonder that this continues to be one of the most interesting threads here? So, given this veritable cornucopia of interesting topics, why you choose to stay on the dark side is a bit of a mystery to me. I won't take your obvious confusion about our "private" "conflict" (your words, not mine) personally; but, while I prefer to keep these things private, you have made them public so I need to set the record straight.
From my Audiogon inbox, correspondence from you to me in reference to the "material" you sent me:
---------------------------------
slaw
February 15, 2014 1:17pm
(****)
Just keep it. I need to not be stressed out.
----------------------------------
I am sure that you simply forgot about this part of our correspondence and if you would like further discussion about my impressions of the sonic effects of using the 6"x10" (or so) piece of plastic material that you sent me let's please do it privately. I think this thread is better served by sticking to discussions about matters related to the great ET2 or fun and friendly banter.
BTW, Chris, whoever said it was drummers who get the best chicks? I always thought the saxophone was the best chick magnet. Just ask my wife :-) |
...and I'm the "bad guy"? |
Ct0517: Regarding Timeter pumps.....with all due respect to Ct0517, the over-riding issue with Timeter has been that they "farm" out their products to sub-contractors, IE: wholesalers. This, in of itself is a major issue. So, in order to get a part or to try and talk with a human,... this takes a whole lot of patience and time. Additionally, you'll have to deal with the (sub-contractors, wholesalers)... (a Major Pain In The Ass) x 10!
(My personal experience had me making a claim on my credit card against the sub-contractor/wholesaler).
I can only hope that Frogman sees this (bit of information) as a positive (change)!
|
Pegasus: I emplore you... don't let your emotions get away with you.
Until I hear Frogman respond to his past, I'd hold off, as to his future praise! |
Frogman: It seems your "value" has increased since our (conflict). I'm O'k with this as long as you return the material I sent to you, (on my original terms). You then, have free rein to talk about me as you wish. |
Frogman: Your response on 08-03-15...It seems that you've taken on the word "projects" as a metaphore for (our past correspondence). You seem, to replace the word "projects" for, (as you are saying, "change"? Is it not the same ideal?!
By the way.. I sent Steve McCormack samples of the same material I sent to you, (remember, after my initial contact, (privately), you agreed to my sending it... those terms were that you evaluate it and at some point return it). Later you seemed to have mis-read my initial terms! (His staff is very interested in it and requested more info). Some people are to be respected when they give their word/bond.
You haven't had the basic consideration of even trying to contact me regarding any impressions. Well, would you care to share now?
I will accept the return of that material if you'll be as willing to accept as you were to receive. |
Excellent post Pegasus. Pegasus
I prefer to use less counterweights farther out on the I-beam. I prefer it because this way the center of gravity of the arm is more centered along the bearing, and because I have less lever forces on my semi-springed subchassis. It helps to float the arm better across it's way. Check mark. This is ET 2 - Base 101 SETUP from the manual and IMO has to be the most messed up part of the setup from Audiophiles and especially Professional Reviewers who DO NOT read the manual. (Arthur Salvatore are you reading this ?) I actually years ago; to see what would happen made up some extra lead weights and loaded up the arm counterweight HEAVY closest the spindle to see what would happen. You can't hurt anything but you may bottom out the spindle on the far side. At one point I seem to recall it sounding like a train coming through the room. Can you imagine Audiophiles loading up the I Beam and with a single leaf spring and playing an eccentric record. Like loading up the car vehicle for that vacation in the mountains! Hmmmm...Why doesn't my bass sound right ? BTW before I attempted the above, I consulted with Bruce and he told me - Go for it ! So I could learn. Well I learned. I now keep my weights on the tip of the pirate plank. Pegasus
It also reduces the maximum lateral mass, effective at "DC", below the resonance frequencies of arm/bearing and I-beam/counterweight. Reducing lateral mass equates to increases in the Vertical Mass = Best Bass in my room. Newer ET2'ers can think of the teeter totter again. If you weigh 50 units (cartridge) and your friend weighs 70 units (lead weights), your friend will need to sit closer to the middle to balance things. Teeter Totters are the MOST fun when both people are able to sit on the end seats. The changing variable with the ET2 is the cartridge. As Pegasus indicated position as few lead weights as possible toward the highest number on the I Beam furthest out. If you find you are just missing the end and need to bring on more weight further in - change your cartridge screws. The weight distribution on the I Beam is that important to my hearing. ***************************************** Friends, unfortunately the days of cheap Timeters (make first bid - you win and pay $200 shipping) seem to be over. Timeter PumpMe thinks Ebay seller Macemedical has discovered this thread :^( |
Hi Chris, BTW the pressurized air bottle is true. :-)
I forgot to answer an earlier question of yours: I prefer to use less counterweights farther out on the I-beam. I prefer it because this way the center of gravity of the arm is more centered along the bearing, and because I have less lever forces on my semi-springed subchassis. It helps to float the arm better across it's way.
It also reduces the maximum lateral mass, effective at "DC", below the resonance frequencies of arm/bearing and I-beam/counterweight.
Less counterweights farther out in effect tunes the I-beam / leaf spring resonance lower down. In the end, this is a more important aspect than the leaf or counterweight looked at separately I think.
I went through many such tests during the 80's and beginning of nineties, taking some of them up in the last years.
I didn't like the single leaf springs with my medium to low compliance cartridges, I preferred the double spring ones - I don't think I have a triple leaf I-beam.
There is another aspect of the I-beam, which is critical / sub-optimal: The weights are not centered around the I-beam, ie. it exerts an offset torsional force on the leaf. This means that any vertical movement of the arm activates a hidden torsional resonance, which slightly modulates tracking force. The vertical axis is the one axis, where you want *absolute* "true inertia", and as few resonant modes as possible, including arm resonances, as it affects the critical downforce.
My feeling is that the stiffer beams control this aspect better than the single leaf beam.
I always preferred the I-beam leaf with a bit more damping than originally provided, using BluTak.
For balancing I move two Blue-Tak "saddles" along the I-beam, and the arm lever extension, to keep lateral forces equilibrated.
My ET2, now with ET 2.5 bearing is an early one. I ordered the bearing for around 0.8 bar (ca. 11 psi) and it still runs OK with ca. 3 psi. Though below ca. 6 psi things go audibly downward, the magic disappearing somehow. In fact the ET 2.5 has "simply" more surface and is therefore already stiffer, but the price is a higher lateral mass, probably 10g more.
Sending the arm from Switzerland to the US - and parting from it - would probably affect my sleep... not in the best way. :-) It works good enough... I'm Just checking lateral balance after adjusting the VTA. |
09-09-15: Bdp24
The discussion of a musician's sense of time brings to mind a singer whose timing drives me nuts, and you hear him at many audio shows---Willie Nelson. I don't mind a singer having flexible or elastic phrasing (pulling ahead of or falling behind the pulse of the band), but he jumps so far far ahead it creates anxiety!
By the way, when you hear a recording in which the drummer (or entire rhythm section) seems to be dragging, it's not necessarily of his/their doing. In doing session work, I have found many singers to have trouble "waiting" for the beat coming towards them while over-dubbing vocals to previously recorded backing tracks, and end up "rushing". Don't blame the drummer! Bdp24 - welcome to the thread. Could this be a case of some singer "beat deafness", or maybe "weed" influence ? This could be fun if you could point to some youtube examples that illustrate this? if I may ask; So as a drummer, has it been your personal experience that the "beat" guys get the best chicks ? Good to have another back row guy here to balance out things. :^) Cheers |
the compressed air bottle is a 200 atmospheres 60 liter steel tank. It provides "air DC" (to my arm & head) :-) hah hah - I like your sense of humor Pegasus. Like wise when needed, I sneak some Arizona like air from my Timeter pump. It is after all located next to the treadmill. (But its on its own circuit - heh - heh) Did you really check for absolute levelness after changing the VTA position, finding *no* change in side balance?
The imprecision is shurely on a very low absolute level, but not low enough in my case. I found out the hard way, by ear that there was a problem. Firstly Pegasus if I put myself in your shoes based on this problem, if it is really bothering you there are three options that I can see. 1) As you have sensitive ears, try a properly set up double spring I Beam. As you know especially with heavier stiffer LOMC cartridges, the single leaf spring I beam can be taxed more and induces more horizontal movement with eccentric records. The stiffer double spring does not do as good a job of damping the spindle on eccentric records but is what you should be using with heavier lomc's. The manual does not discuss this. If there was an updated rewrite of it the single, double, triple spring I beams would be a chapter on their own - imo. To play records on an ET2 with a single leaf spring an eccentric record must not have a runout of more than 1/8 inch (from the manual) . The stiffer double spring would make this number a little less - imo. take note. 2) Send your ET2 to Bruce to check it out. He will tell you if it is within spec/tolerances for the year it was built. 3) Switch cartridges to one that doesn't reveal your particular issue to your ears. This is after all about enjoying the music right ? I can change VTA anytime and I again do a quick gravity test with the handy BlueTac Pancake which makes the arm free float. No movement at VTF 0, we are good. That is my test. I have these Blue Tac pancakes for whichever cartridge is on there. you start small, add a little on top till the arm floats like a teeter totter with two same weight people on it. Do you remember the uneasy feeling of being on a Teeter Totter as a child, with someone your same weight; and holding the teeter totter in a balance ? Remember if the other guy jumped off quick and you hit the ground hard ? The gravity test is no different, same principle. But the ET 2 has the ingenious holding cue arm for when you take the Blue Tac weight off the lead weights. I need to also qualify something and I have mentioned this before here. My ET 2.5 is a more recent build 4 or 5 years? not sure now - a custom build by Bruce and the manifold/spindle has tighter tolerances than my HP 2.0. Let me better explain this. With the air off sliding the spindle in and out of the manifold is much stiffer on the 2.5 than the older 2.0. My ET 2.0 is also a HPM (High Pressure Manifold) - but it will still play with only 7 or 8 psi. in fact it will play with over 30 psi and no air hissing is heard and the inlet air tube does not blow off. It is a custom build obviously and it was bought used. My newer 2.5 needs 19 psi no questions. So here we have another example of the way Bruce constructed and changed his tonearms differently either by the buyers request or just as time went on. We know for instance that Bruce went to the 2.5 to meet the demand of lower compliance MC's. that has been discussed here before. So how old is your ET2 ? |
Dover, thank you for the link to the MIT video. Very interesting, and I was particularly impressed by how their designs are guided by music theory. As I said before, the conceptual parallels between the audio hobby and music making are many. |
Hi Chris (?) the compressed air bottle is a 200 atmospheres 60 liter steel tank. It provides "air DC" (to my arm & head) :-)
Wires: the Audio Consulting wires are twisted single strand 0.15mm silver wires with thin isolation. I dress them carefully (two L/R separated looms in a circle of almost 245 degree with ca. > 15cm diameter) going up from the arm in 90 degree to ca. 4cm above & behind the arm, slowly turning > 200 degree and back to vertically down. I measured the forces applied by the elasticity and weight of a single winding, it's around 0.05 gm. This is audible - if one does not correct for it. But I tune the downforce by ear anyway. The forces are low, and less in the horizontal plane. The end effect is what the arm does: It still skates off very slowly outside the middle 5cm to the inner and outer grooves.
The wiring works actually very well (far better than the original wiring), and I prefer to keep the wires twisted for hum compensation. Some time I used 0.07mm single strand copper wires, the applied slightly less force but sounded IMO worse.
Did you really check for absolute levelness after changing the VTA position, finding *no* change in side balance?
The imprecision is shurely on a very low absolute level, but not low enough in my case. I found out the hard way, by ear that there was a problem. |
Hi Pegasus Pegasus
I use twisted thin Audio Consulting silver wires outside of the arm, fixed via two or three small double sided foam ahesive pads. The wires go in a light curve, with a vertical radius, L/R some cms separated, to 7cm behind the arm tube, in the middle of the travel path. I assume Ct0517 will tell me that my VTA mechanism has a problem - but it was never overtightened or any thing like that, it has equal spacing around and moderate to low "clamp". Per my comments to Styrk - Are you setting up the wiring after you have done the initial setup and level of the actual tonearm ? If not your wiring may be affecting the leveling as the air bearing spindle is so sensitive. There would therefore be an effect, even if a small one, on the VTA block alignment if you level with the wiring. VTA issues - Some of us notice this, other don't and it is based IMO on the stylus and how much detail it churns up. If the cartridge is musical but not overly detailed, one may never need to touch the VTA and not notice anything. Other than that, without seeing it, it is hard to discuss. I would however also inspect the base and 3 leveling screws to ensure there is no movement whatsoever. Maybe things got moved and something came loose with the main bolt. (especially into wood) This last comment is really for other newer ET2 owners. It's obvious to me from your posts your attention to detail is excellent. . Also never seen a 1210 with a wood base. Last option I can think of being a factory defect Pegasus
Ie. with moderate to low compliance cartridges the counterweight decoupling introduces a new (sonic) compromise instead of solving a problem. But to really hear the advantage of a rigid counterweight, one has to do a bit more fiddling with the ET2 counterweight fixing than just using BluTak to bypass the spring (which I usually did).
For high compliance - I assume - it's ingenious. This makes sense as the ET2 was introduced when high compliance MM were in their heyday. For moderate to low compliance think of a Double and Triple leaf spring. This was discussed earlier in the thread. Have Bruce send you five loose leaf springs and two I beams. This will allow you to make up one Double and one Triple I Beam. They cost only a few dollars. I use a double leaf spring mainly. I consider using different leaf springs part of an advanced ET2 setup and will let you tune your setup better. NO Professional Reviewers ever got this far with setup. Well I should not say this right ? OK - Point me to a review if it happened and I will acknowledge it. Pegasus - I would be interested in knowing where you position the lead weights and how many on the I Beam. This would tell me more about your audio preferences than any other aspect of the ET2. Pegasus
BTW I use a pressurized air bottle (rental system in Switzerland) as air supply at the moment. ???? 8^0 |
Analogluvr
I believe we may be almost neighbours! I tried to email you but it bounced back. Hi Analogluvr I'm about an hour north of the GTA; but in summer about 3 hours north. You can reach me at bcpguy(at)bell(dot)net. Summer activities are coming to a close. Cooler nights and sun coming down much earlier. Its crazy when fall starts the way I just slip into this madness of a hobby without even seeming to miss a beat. For those keeping score the modded Music Reference RM9 amp is still powering the main speakers. No rush to insert the monster Krell to compare. Just enjoying the music when I have been home - like now :^) Mister Frogman I always enjoy reading your personal accounts as a musician; especially those words that talk to the interfacing that is needed to make musicians gel together. Cheers |
09-02-15: Shfinne
The way I level is by using test record with blank track.
I can't see how to setup correctly with out one. Hi Styrk So you are using one of these products ? Test Record I note that one of the reviewers said his test record had an offset center hole. On a test record....:^( Just saying. Using a test record implies that you are setting up with the Et2 wiring as part of the arm and connected as you need to listen to test tones. If you are happy with the results that's great, enjoy the music. But if you have more Rope for the Hangman in this crazy Audio Hobby of ours, I feel you can do much better with the ET2. If you really want to hear what this out of the box unique tonearm can do; you need to IMO use an out of the box method of setup and leveling. I have said this before. I am suggesting you set the ET2 up and level without the wiring. Pull the wiring from the tonearm initially and add it later. The ET2 provides for this capability unlike any other tonearm I am aware of, Here is the problem and/or limitation from my experiences. The ET2 wiring loom can also be called the ET2's Achilles heel. Many have pulled out their hair trying to set it up with the wiring as part of the initial setup. This is after all the way it is done in the manual. here's the problem. The wiring affects the tonearm far more than any other tonearm I have owned. A bad wire arrangement can ruin an otherwise very good mechanical set up due to the push/ pull on the sensitive friction-less air bearing. The wiring will cause you to throw out your leveling. To prove this, set up your wiring after like I suggest, and see what happens. Schubert used a word earlier that I really like .......Fiddle. Fiddle is what I used to do in the early days trying to the get the wiring right, especially with different tables; some with flat plinths, others with a platter and armboard that were joined by a plinth but not on the same plane. We can call this PITA wiring on the ET2 bad design ? but is it ? You see the the design also provides for having the ability to to reach very high musical sonics due to the ease, in adding in, a modded wire arrangement.... after you have set up your arm without the wiring. Yes without the wiring. I realize most probably set up the ET2 with the wiring already part of the arm. Still if a newer owner is setting up the ET 2 & 2.5 with the wiring attached to it, you could end up Fiddling - alot. You could pull out a lot of hair and succumb to the rumors that this is hardest arm to setup. Assuming a clean functioning ET2, this is THE reason IMO for those that fail to set one up satisfactorily. Their Wiring Arrangement. I am willing to put money on this one. This method of adding in the wire after allows you to make a wire arrangement that is best for your specific table and the least intrusive on the overall setup. Also FWIW and IMO .. the wiring set up discussed in the manual is just average at best, and was designed to work with VPI , SOTA, other tables in order to sell more tables. If Bruce is partnered with Harry at VPI as he was (the original TNT was designed for the ET2 ) then you want a standard basic wire setup. This was a very average set up at best. C'mon ..wire going down through the plinth to a junction box ? So give it a try. What's to lose ? Remove the wiring, and set up your ET2 as best as possible naked - sans wiring. Once complete with the mechanical setup and leveling add in the wiring. A small last but important point if you attempt this... For now you will be adding the wiring outside the armtube, and make sure you make no further adjustments to the vertical leveling screws. Only make adjustments to the wiring arrangement itself. Once you have made the best wiring arrangement after the armtube, you can tuck the lead part of the wires into the armtube if aesthetics are that important to you. You can also braid the wire along the armtube but keep single strands once it leaves the armtube. Braiding helps with interference (noise and hum), but it also causes binding of the tonearm wire. (this is dependent on the type of wire as well). This in fact is how my VPI JMW used to apply antiskate - with the braided wire going from the armtube to the junction box. The affect - push back - very evident with each twist. Then VPI went further and added another layer with a separate antiskate system altogether in addition to the wire. One becomes experienced enough with the wire arrangement through personal practice. This can't be learned on the internet. Happy Leveling |
Addendum: The VTA adjustment mechanism of my ET2 introduces slight (but IMO much too much) lateral imbalances when changing VTA. I assume Ct0517 will tell me that my VTA mechanism has a problem - but it was never overtightened or any thing like that, it has equal spacing around and moderate to low "clamp".
- so, after changing VTA I would *always* adjust lateral balance... :-(
- I use very small vertical cardboard wedges between arm housing and plinth to *slightly* couple the bearing to the plinth. One "outside", one on the counterweight end, underneath the damping trough. This improves stability and focus and is audible (and reversible).
- BTW I measured/listened to the energy put into the arm, arm base and plinth while playing an LP, by using a structural feedback microphone. I heard a wide-band replica of the LP signals across the whole arm structure into and including the plinth. With no audible HF roll-off "after" the bearing, it just went lower in level across the plinth, a bit absorbed probably by inertia. So much for "air bearings are inherently less stiff than radial arm bearings".
- And I heard bearing noise... like white noise, created by air turbulence of the exiting air. This has tobe put in the backside of our heads when increasing pressure on the bearing, although it's relatively constant. |
Frogman: If I'd live in NY or the states I'd shurely ask you for lessons on my clarinet(s). It would be fun tweaking my fingers tangentially to the holes with your help and having them (the holes) optimized by tweaking the diameters... :-).
Dover: I found your posts very interesting and I like what I'm hearing with magnetic damping - in my setup, with a small neodym magnet close to the bearing tube placed at the "backside" of the bearing, direct wiring some cms away from the bearing tube. Not tried yet the "naked" alu arm tube yet.
Setup: IMO my original ET wiring was introducing too high lateral forces. I use twisted thin Audio Consulting silver wires outside of the arm, fixed via two or three small double sided foam ahesive pads. The wires go in a light curve, with a vertical radius, L/R some cms separated, to 7cm behind the arm tube, in the middle of the travel path.
With this, the arm is a *very* precise leveling tool. It shows the slight change of levelness introduced by the level forces of the tonearm on my battery-modded SL1210 with "trick-subchassis". So I have to look for a very slow movement toward the outside at the beginning and the end, but perfect level in the mid of the LP, or mid arm travel.
Every time I heard slightly tubby bass, it was caused by an involontary change in lateral balance. Unbalanced side forces affects bass - one already has it built in with too stiff wiring.
I'll try Dovers idea of a slight overhang, this is such a delicate tweak, that it will create much smaller forces than any wrong balance setup.
Decoupled counterweight & ET: I think it is a brilliant idea to reduce the effective lateral mass - in case of rather high compliance cartridges. It makes the ET2 much more widely compatible, than the ET one was (I owned it), or most other air bearing arms, specially those with stationary outer bearing, long bearing tubes and counterweight at the opposite end.
My axe to grind is that optimizing towards a higher lateral resonance frequency than say 4-5 Hz (at least) is simply neither necessary nor improving sound. Based on the same thoughts that stand behind the Moerch DP-8 arm.
Ie. with moderate to low compliance cartridges the counterweight decoupling introduces a new (sonic) compromise instead of solving a problem. But to really hear the advantage of a rigid counterweight, one has to do a bit more fiddling with the ET2 counterweight fixing than just using BluTak to bypass the spring (which I usually did).
For high compliance - I assume - it's ingenious.
BTW I use a pressurized air bottle (rental system in Switzerland) as air supply at the moment. |
Bdp24, is that called the Diana Krall syndrome ? |
Thanks Dover, valuable info !
As the floor of my small condo is also the 3 feet thick concrete roof of the underground parking my problem is spikes on speakers .
I was in Needle Doctor a while back whilst a Rega Exact MM
was playing classical in a most elegant and refined manner. . |
The discussion of a musician's sense of time brings to mind a singer whose timing drives me nuts, and you hear him at many audio shows---Willie Nelson. I don't mind a singer having flexible or elastic phrasing (pulling ahead of or falling behind the pulse of the band), but he jumps so far far ahead it creates anxiety!
By the way, when you hear a recording in which the drummer (or entire rhythm section) seems to be dragging, it's not necessarily of his/their doing. In doing session work, I have found many singers to have trouble "waiting" for the beat coming towards them while over-dubbing vocals to previously recorded backing tracks, and end up "rushing". Don't blame the drummer! |
Shubert -
I had an Audiomods tonearm with the VTA adjuster on a Verdier briefly a while ago and was quite impressed albeit with a Moving Magnet cartridge. Very easy to set up and adjust, same mounting as a Rega/Origin Live and reasonably priced.
When I had an hiatus from the ET2 due to springy wooden floors and the difficulty of wall mounting a 125kg turntable I decided to go to a unipivot, the rationale being that the unipivot bearing has much lower friction than conventional gimbal arms and would be the next best option. I had had unipivots before and they have good pace and timing in my view compared to gimbal bearing arms. Purchased a Naim Aro and can happily live with that as well as the ET2. Funnily enough Martin Colloms used the Aro on his Linn for the same reason - unipivots are less susceptible footfalls on sprung floors. |
Frogman - One interesting experience I had years ago was when a friend played a Phillips reissue of a Mercury Living Presence recording that I had. I could not believe it was the same recording, the reissue being very slow and ponderous. After investigation the only difference was that the tonal balance had been altered in the reissue. In terms of correct tonal balance I only use MIT Oracle cabling in my system - the gains in accurate fundamentals and harmonics over other cables ( assuming you have a decent system to start with ) are evident to my ears. Here is a very interesting video on the subject - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgK87tmRVeY |
Specifically, I would appreciate comments on Origin Live Silver arm . |
Frogman, as what you said is basically what I thought I agree with you 110%-LOL.
All jokes aside, it is amazing what you can learn through
osmosis .
Can you or anyone name another tonearm that can do ,at least to some degree, what the ET-2 does ? At my age the
fiddle factor for the ET-2 is beyond me . |
Dover, I agree. Rhythm is something that is often overlooked or given short shrift in discussions about audio in general. Another favorite saying among musicians is "no one gets fired for having a bad tone". Somewhat of an exaggeration to be sure, but the message is simply that as far as the music (as opposed to ear candy) goes the most important fundamental is rhythm. There are some musicians who possess exquisite tone, but their sense of rhythm is rough and/or musically inflexible. Most musicians would much rather play with someone who has a great sense of rhythm and phrasing even if the tone is less than ideal. Because the ET2 is a mechanical device, subject to the effects of mechanical resonances and is not a human being, this concept only applies to a degree. However, for me, one of the reasons that the ET2 is so rhythmically correct is the fact that it is also so tonally correct. In audio, tonal distortions can have a very significant effect on our perception of rhythm. |
Schubert, there is a saying among jazz musicians that "you can't play outside (the harmony) until you know how to play inside". It is usually said in reference to some (not all) of the so-called "avante garde" players who squeal and squawk and have no grasp of the fundamentals (there's that word again) of melody and harmony, and who bullshit their way through an improvisation. Well, the same idea applies to rhythm. A great jazz player can manipulate rhythm and deviate from metronomic rhythmic precision as a way to create tension and release and expressiveness in a solo or delivery of a melody; it can give the delivery a certain swagger and relaxed quality. Then, there are some who simply have imprecise rhythm. It should be pointed out that in jazz there is much more latitude for manipulation of rhythm considered to be acceptable than in classical music. As jazz became more and more adventurous harmonically over recent decades, so did rhythmic concepts become more individualistic. For a great example of this listen to the great Dexter Gordon. Early to mid career recordings demonstrate great rhythmic precision. Later recordings demonstrate playing which was more and more "relaxed" and behind the beat to the point that it is almost painful to listen to him playing (especially ballads) because this approach created so much tension. He was a true artist however and this approach rang true and was a valid style choice. In the case of lesser players or singers this can sound forced and just plain wrong. |
Frogman, good to know you consider rhythm the fundamental as I came to the that conclusion myself when I started to listen seriously to jazz.
Why then do so many prominent jazz artists ,vocal and instrumental, seem unable or unwilling to keep time ? |
Frogman - You have alluded to an attribute of the ET2 that has not really been recognised in this thread. In my view the ET2, due to the lack of offset angle tracking error and variable side forces, has better timing than pivoted arms, particularly with cartridges with conventional cantilevers. The proviso here is that the decoupled counterweight has been tuned to ensure that resonances are not interfering with the "timing". The suggestion to remove the decoupled counterweight by richardkrebs earlier in this thread will impair timing and rhythm - I have tested this myself - it is easy to hear. Correct reproduction of fundamentals and harmonics is a prime requisite for accurate music reproduction, and that includes rhythm and timing. Of course eccentric records cause timing problems with a conventional cantilever with any arm. Contrary to some views on this thread, the ET2 is the easiest arm in the world to set up correctly. It is one of the few arms in the world that provides for levelling in all directions. The lack of offset angle, tracking error and the elimination of anti skate adjustment ( which can never be perfect ) is a big advantage for the ET2. Just look at the number of posts and misunderstanding of anti skate. Azimuth adjustment is missing on many arms. The ET2 manual is sufficient to correctly set up this arm. When I bought my first ET2 30 years ago - I read the manual, installed the arm, reread bits of the manual to check that I'd completed the install correctly - all completed in half a day. The various mods - rewiring, electromagnetic damping, trialling fixed vs decoupled counterweight, trialling running 0.5mm overhang ad infinitum were all completed within months of ownership. It does not take rocket science to set this arm up, simply read the manual and pay careful attention to detail. The explanations of tuning this arm and the supporting test data on Bruce's ET2 Website are one of the best in the business. Here is a quote from Thom Mackris of Galibier Turntables - 04-03-10: Thom_mackris
For those of you who have not done so, download the two part ET-2 tonearm manual (PDF). It's in old-timey font, from the good old daze and in two parts from back when bandwidth was much more limited than it is today.
The manual is chock full of great information on tonearms in general, and of course with specific information on the ET-2.
You'll not only understand your own tonearm better, but will gain insight into the genius behind the ET-2 arm.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier The most valuable discussions in this thread for me have been the discussions on air supply and seeing how others have set up their air supplies and pressures. |
I consider that a compliment; thanks. I don't teach (woodwinds) nearly as much as I used to, but I make a point of always having at least a couple of students. It is a great way to never forget about the most important things: the fundamentals. I have always been fascinated by the many parallels between our audio hobby and playing music as concerns the process of choosing and tweaking of equipment and how that truly relates to music fundamentals; rhythm being the most important fundamental. The ET2 gets a lot of the fundamentals right. Regards. |
Frogman, I don't know if you teach , but I do know you are a born teacher ! |
Rule of thumb is that a compliance spec of 12 or lower is considered low compliance. |
Thanks so much for your help frogman. Your right the 7000 is a very detailed cart but in my system I still find it to be very musical as well. It is a lot like my Lyra Delos but more resolving, not surprising as they are cousins. So at a compliance of 9 it would be quite low right? |
