Elrog 300B vs Takatsuki 300B tubes
Its amazing to touch a 12w Mills resistor that is dissipating only 3-4 watts and it be too hot to touch. No one tells you these things when you first start out in DIY. Best thing to do is to look at lots of schematics and see what ratings for the caps and resistors they use in the various positions. Charles I'll be interested to find out what brand of resistor you eventually go with. Jet |
Jet and Al, Following my earlier post I spoke with George and he also suggested a larger value watt rating resistor would be fine even though the amplifier uses a 10 watt cathode resistor. 20 watts it will be! Thanks gentlemen for valued input. Brf, You make a good point but I am determined to see this through with the resistor suggestion. The Elrog is wonderful sounding and I really enjoy listening to them. If the Elrog fails again despite the resistor swap then that's it for me and I'm back to EML and Takatsuki. If a 5-10 dollar part can prolong the lifespan and reliability of 1500.00 dollar tubes I'm willing to give it a try. I accept the potential risk and will blame no one if things don't work out. Charles, |
Excellent comments by Jet just above, regarding the power rating of the replacement resistor(s). And I note in this schematic, which was referenced earlier in the thread, that a 25 watt rating is shown for the present 1K resistor. In general, it is good practice to "derate" a resistor's power rating (i.e., to have the rating exceed the expected actual dissipation) by at least a factor of 2 and preferably more. Rob, thanks for the kind comment :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Charles1dad, that is great of George to send you another pair of replacement tubes, but why not just ask for a refund? So far you have had 2 separate Elrog 300B tube failures and to date you have been lucky that the failures did not result in any damage to your amps. Why push your luck? If a refund is not available, do you intend to sell the replacement tubes in an attempt to recoup some of your investment? I just crossed Elrog off my Christmas list. |
Charles, I would suggest a resistor at least 20 watts in this position. The heat you are dissipating could be from 6 to 8 watts. For instance the original Joe Roberts WE91a schematic calls for a 50watt resistor in this position. You could also go with two Mills 2.4k 12 watt resistors in parallel. That would give you a 1.2k / 24w resistor. I believe a 10 watt resistor will be burnin hot and too close to its max tolerance. |
Hi Jet, The resistor needed is 1,2K ohms/10 watts. Yes, as you say raising the resistance(slightly in this case) lowers the "turn on" stress on the 300b.I'm looking forward to doing this and will see what happens. George contacted me this morning and said I'll have a replacement sent in about 3 weeks. As usual he's right on top of things (utterly supportive). I was told the brand of resistor isn't particularly important for this application. But I figure may as well go high quality, good parts always seem to make a difference even if only subtle sometimes. Charles, |
Charles, The 300b cathode resistor is actually one part in my amp that I have not changed so I have no experience how different brands would affect the sound. They have to dissipate lots of heat so are pretty large. Maybe Grannyring or Salectric would have some experience. Also try the Audio Asylum Tube DIY thread for a good sounding 300b cathode resistor. My cathode resistor is pretty cool. It has various lead outs which give different resistances. The one time I noticed an improvement in sound was when I used to use Sophia Electric Mesh plate 300b tubes. I increased the resistance which lowered the stress on the Sophia Mesh and it did sound a bit better, so its possible with some tubes you may notice a sound change. |
Update, It has been suggested to me from a very trusted source that the Frankenstein amplifier would benefit in changing the cathode resistor value from 1000 ohms to 1200 ohms. This is said to lessen the stress on the cathode when the amplifier is powered up (reducing turn on surge) . I was told this simple swap will result in significantly longer tube life by stressing the 3oob tube less with a lower initial surge upon turning on the amplifier. I was informed this will benefit "all" 300b tubes not just the Elrog. Another suggestion was regulating the AC wall voltage range to keep within 115-120 volts. The cathode resistor change is highly recommended from this source. Given the cost of these tubes (all premium level 300bs) this simple and inexpensive fix seems wise, I'm going to do it. I was also told that this modification won't change the sound character of the amplifier. I will report my findings once I complete this task. Charles, |
Well, I willingly acknowledge The risk with this different type of 300b variant and proceeded with both eyes fully open. Other Frankenstein owners may have a better outcome with a newer batch of Elrogs, tough to say. It's such an exceptionally good sounding tube in my amplifier that I wanted so badly for it to be reliable long term. I informed George(tubesusa) he'll follow up with me. These are very expensive tubes and they have to offer long term durability to make the high cost worthwhile, Hi Scifi, Takatsuki vs EML XLS, I really enjoy and cherished both of them over a 3 year period. This is such a true example of individual taste and probably system synergy as well. I listen to the EML XLS more often, it has a "bit" more dynamic authority and scale and is organic and communicates emotion effectively. The Takatsuki is very organic, a "bit" lighter in presentation and very refine in character, maybe a "bit" sweeter. Nitpicking aside both are true reference standard 300b tubes and simply excellent sounding in my system I suspect most 300b aficionados might prefer the Takatsuki say 55 to 45 from a sample size group of 100 (pure speculation I admit). I give a modest edge to the EML XLS for its added punch and open large scale sound in my system. As I have implied, you couldn't possibly go wrong with either tube. They both have proven track records of reliability, I can attest to that. Charles, |
Charles, Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that one of your Elrogs has gone bad. It sounds like a repeat performance of what happened to me. Perhaps there is some hope on the horizon in that a "new batch" should be to George any day now..... Well I hope anyday now since shipment was to be made two weeks ago. He told me that these were supposed to be even better than the batch from which mine and perhaps yours came from. Since yours are within the one year warranty period they will undoubtedly be replaced with some others. I guess you can choose to use them and roll the dice once again or just resell them "as new". How do the Taks compare to the EMLs? Hang my in there my friend, Scifi |
Charles, very sorry to hear that your replacements did not work out. Mine are still OK, but I am getting very little listening time in these days. Less now than when I was working. I suspect that you have drawn the right conclusion. In the event my replacement tubes fail prematurely, I will probably also go the EML route. |
I promised to post periodically on my 2nd pair of Elrogs, so here it is. One of the replacement tubes failed today unfortunately. The past week that channel would go silent sporadically and then sound would return. When I turned the amplifier on today the tube in that mono block didn't illuminate, it was dead. Very disappointing to report this, but that's the reality. I put in my EML XLS and they are just cruising along as usual. I had the highest hope for the Elrog ER 300 given there superb sound. I have to realize that the Elrog just may not be the right tube for the Coincident Frankenstein. The EML and Takatsuki in terms of reliability are the better match. The EML is a very robust tube and appears to be ideal for this particular amplifier. Mine are 3 years old and test exactly as they did the first day I got them. They are sounding excellent right now, just not quite as good as the Elrogs which were near magical. With all factors considered the EML XLS is going to be my "work horse go to" 300b. It just seems made for the Frankenstein's operating parameters with its rugged tube internal construction and higher current capabilities. People using the Elrog is DACs or different amplifiers may hopefully have success with these tubes. Well I took my chance with this special tube but apparently it wasn't meant to be. Charles, |
Thank you all for your informative discussions. I have a Lampizator 7 and leaning towards the purchase of the Elrog ER 300b. Off topic. If I purchase the Elrogs with a credit card that has extended warranty protection, I am able to extend the manufacturer's warranty coverage by one additional year. If it fails after 6 months or thereafter, will I be covered? : ) |
Mike, It is interesting that the superb sonic characteristics of the Elrog ER 300b is consistent regardless of their use in a DAC or power amplifier. Your listening impressions very closely matches what I hear with them placed in my SET amplifier. I hope you get many years of listening joy from them. |
got my Elrog 300b's today for my single ended Golden Gate and I've been listening for the last 3 hours. I'm very impressed right from the start. this is the magic I've been looking for. Very very sexy sounding. It has that mid-range fire and sparkle, along with a seemingly lower noise floor and micro-dynamic energy which makes the music more real and engaging. Very nice bass decay and soundstage space and overall presence. It has a lovely texture and nuance. just a very refined sound. it seems fine with large and small scale music. loves piano and strings. so real sounding and goose bump inducing. a friend warned me away from these so there is that concern. but my ears are loving these Elrogs. I do have a very good stable power grid with an Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel system with 10kva isolation transformer. and the dac is not stressed. so far all is well and I'm very happy. thanks for all the info pushing me toward this decision. |
So this is my point, not everyone has had early 300b tube failure with the Frankenstein MK II. The question is how often is this problem occurring and what % of amplifiers are affected? Markus I'm glad you are having the same wonderful Franks with Elrog tubes result as I am. Chris, I am happy the Franks have worked out so well in your system. Wow! its been a year for you already? |
Charles, I haven't had my Franks as long as you have but have never experienced any other tube failures with them other than one of my Elrogs. I have used the stock Shuguang Black Treasures (briefly) as well as VAIC VV300b which were manufactured in the 90s when KR and VAIC were one company. When I asked Israel about using different brands of 300b tubes he did tell me to stay away from Sophia Royal Princess as they couldn't handle the voltage levels of the Franks. It appears that the Franks create higher voltage levels than other 300b amps...this was alluded to by WJT2005 but in a slightly different context than I think Israel meant it with his comments about suitable 300b choices. Others he mentioned as being ok were the Taks which he spoke very highly of, Elrogs only the newer ones that have been rebuilt to handle the higher voltages, older KRs but not ones made within the last 5 years, EML XLS which he really liked but not their mesh plates which were prone to microphonics. Hope this his helps with the discussion about reliability. From on my own experience these amps are by far the quietest tube amps I have ever owned and I have owned a bunch. I can't believe that even with my ear right up to the compression drivers on my speakers there is virtually no noise. Now that's really unprecedented in my experience with tube amps. Scifi |
Maybe other Frankenstein MK II owners will share their experiences. I can only comment on my 6 years of ownership and I haven't had these premature tube failures. AVVT SL 32, EML, Takatsuki and Shuguang Black treasure. I've used these 4 different tubes long term(more than 3 years) without any failure issues. So far the replacement Elrogs are doing fine. So for whatever reason there may be, my outcome isn't the same as yours or Jac's experience. |
After I searched the net, I got this one from Sophia Electric website. This user seemed had issues as well. Maybe you are the lucky one. ------------------------------------------------------ Received date: July 9, 2014 Dear Sue of Sophia Electric: I am rediscovering my music collection with my new Sophia Electric 91-01 amplifiers. Rewind a few years back. Based, in part, upon Arthur Salvatore’s recommendation, I purchased a pair of CST Frankensteins II 300B amplifiers. Later on I purchased a pair of CST Pure Reference speakers. After reading reviews, I tried the Full Music carbon plate 300Bs. One of them died prematurely within a few months. Later on, I tried the KR tubes, again trying to extend the curve. One of them died prematurely within a week. Fortunately, I got my money back. Finally, I ordered the Sophia Electric Royal Princess 300B tubes. For a few days I experienced an enhanced curve I had thought unattainable with a 300B power tube. After a few days (less than a week to my recollection) of listening (I say days as I am retired and actually listen to music most of the day), the same side had a “fireworks” of failure. Again prematurely. I spoke to Sue at Sophia and explained what happened. Without hesitation, she sent a new pair after I explained to her that I would have an audio tech look at it. The technician found nothing wrong with the CST amps. I even called the designer of the CST amps who said “You can use any tube you want”. This was after I related to him what happened. I quickly lost faith in these CST Frankensteins amps. The CST speakers though are still going strong. Based in part on Jeff Day’s review which I read and re-read, I purchased the Sophia Electric 91-01 300B amplifiers. I got them about a week later. That was about two weeks ago. And now, I am re-discovering my music collection! I hear sounds at the “outside ends” of the listening curve that I never knew were recorded on the medium. Wow! Congratulations Sophia Electric! You have made a believer from me. The down side, of course, is that you can tell very easily when a recording has been badly made. The 91-01 amps put out about 8 watts per side. Of course, if you are looking for what I call “megawatts” amplifier, do not look here. So you need speakers that are of “easy to drive” if not rated “high efficiency”. Parenthetically, after the CST “killed” three 300B tubes, I used my “spare” amplifier, producing two watts per side, and my speakers had no problem whatsoever. I guess the end result is “if the first watt sucks, why keep going” as the manufacturer of that two watts per channel amplifier said. You may notice that I do not use technical terms anywhere in what I wrote. The answer is simple. I do not know the meaning of these technical terms. I do not write about something I know nothing about. But I do know about music. When I was working and could afford it, I went to a lot of concerts of “live” music. And to me, that is the only way to learn about music. If you want to hear all of your music (from a recorded media), you cannot go wrong with Sophia Electric. Jac ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Hi Wjt2005, I wonder if this problem was unique to your particular Frankenstein? I've owned mine for over 6 years and haven't experienced this issue(except for the original Elrogs). I can't speak for other Frankenstein MK II owners but I haven't seen feedback suggesting it's a common problem. It's certainly possible other Franks owners may share your same problem. |
I have been an audiogon user for more than 10 years. I read audiogon forums often, but I never posted anything. Today I will make my first post. Elrog 300B failure could be one of the two scenarios or both: 1. Elrog 300B has problem itself. 2. Some of Frankensteins 300B amplifiers if not all have design issues -- huge current surge when the power is turning on. As a result, tubes failed prematurely. I used to own a pair of CST Frankensteins II 300B amplifiers. The stock tube failed within a month. Within a year, I had encountered 4 300B tube failures. I emailed the designer when I had my 2nd 300B failured. I was assured that the amplifier has no problem, I can use any 300B tubes for the amps, but the problem is I continued to encounter 300B tube failure. After a few month of search, I found a very reputable repairman in California. After he inspected the amps, he told me there was a design issue: huge current surge when the power is turning on. As a result, 300B tubes failed prematurely. |
Ddriveman, I just bought a pair for my Golden Gate dac from member 'Valvesaglowin'. TubesUSA George was very patient and helpful on the phone. my pair are suppose to arrive on Tuesday. he is located in New York State. |
Charles, For sure let's hope that the new and improved Elrogs produce outstanding music for many many hours!! I see that you have the matching Coincident Line Stage preamp. What can you tell me about it. If it is anything like the Franks it must be outstanding. I am currently running an Allnic L3000 which is pretty darn good in its own right but I'm very tempted to sell it and purchase the Coincident. Your thoughts! Thanks, Scifi |
Hi Scifi, I agree 100% with your comments concerning Georgr Lenz. Funny you mention Audio Kinesis speakers. Before settling on Coincident speakers I had seriously considered the Audio Kinesis Jazz Module speaker(92 db and 16 ohm load). Others that interested me were Horning,Ocellia and Tonian Labs Classic 12.1. I've always been very impressed with Duke Lejeune's contributions and demeanor on this site. He comes across as someone with class and integrity, which you've confirmed. No doubt his speaker is excellent in your system and mates beautifully with the Frankenstein amplifier. Scifi, lets hope our replacement Elrogs withstand the test of time. Charles, |
Charles, The Joules are a different kind of beast altogether. They produce voluminous amounts of heat given that they use the Russian 6c33b power tube and many of them at a time. You could literally roast weenies on top of that amp! LOL They also have many other smaller tubes in the amp and require a variac and constant maintenance to keep the bias adjustments correct. Try to get service on them now. It is very difficult. BUT I'm not here to bash Joule because in the end those amps produce some beautiful music. However with that being said, the Franks are just such a beautifully simple design. They are so darn quiet and run so cool for having a 300b in the mix. Of course it goes without saying that they create the most pleasant of sonic pictures. I have never been happier with a pair of amps! Yes, my speakers are very efficient at 92dB but more than that they produce basically a flat impedance curve from top to bottom. They are the Audio Kinesis Zephrins designed and produced by Duke LeJeune. Duke is a joy to work with and together we plotted out the type of wiring I wanted in the speakers as well as exactly what compression driver would sound best. It was fun to have input into the process and the result has been outstanding. As far as the Elrogs go, in talking with George very few of the latest Elrogs going into Franks have failed. He stated that aside from mine there had only been one other. Actually one of the tubes was just fine but George wanted both back so that he could replace them with a matched pair. George provides nothing but first class service and I'm hoping that this even newer set will result in many hours of happy listening because that tube is truly extraordinary. Scifi |
Scifi and Mike, This is exacly why I always mention/address reliability when discussing the Elrog ER 300b. Scifi, Snowpro, Brownsfan own the same amp as I do and are hearing the same results. The same seems the case for Lampizator Big 7 and Golden Gate DAC owners as well. If the Elrog engineers have corrected the failure issue then a superb tube is available for us to treasure. Scifi, I wish you the very best outcome with your replacement Elrogs. You are right, the sound isn't quite the same without these tubes in use. I'll continue to post periodic updates on my Elrog 300b replacement tube experiences. I feel like a guinea pig(early adopter)) in regards to these new products, but that's my willing choice. |
I have also been a silent observer of this thread. I own a Lampi SE Golden Gate DAC and so have been very interested in what tubes might be best for me. today I called George Lenz and ordered the Elrog 300b's. he was very helpful over the phone. currently I have the Psvane 300b WE replicas, the Psvane 101d WE replicas, and the National Union 45's. i don't dislike any of them. I was seriously considering investing in some NOS vintage WE 300b'S but the big dollars caused me to look for a better alternative. I appreciate all the great information shared in such a helpful positive way in this thread. I admit some/much of it goes over my head but ultimately it did allow me to be comfortable going with the Elrogs. I look forward to enjoying them. |
I have been a silent observer of this thread. After hearing all the pros and cons of the Elrogs I contacted George Lenz and purchased a pair. Like many of you I own the Coincident Frank II's which are just superb amps. Can't believe how quiet they are and how cool they run. What a difference from my Joules! At any rate I wholeheartedly agree with Charles that the Elrogs are something special. Unfortunately after about 100-150 hours one of them crapped out. George told me that these were the new improved versions suitable for the voltage levels of the Franks but apparently that was not the case with mine. George was very gracious about returning them and currently I am waiting patiently for a replacement pair. They are supposed to be shipped to George on 11/23 so hopefully I will have them soon. Hopefully the replace to pair will be more robust. They sure make listening to music a joy. Just not the same without them in the system. |
Hi Joe (Snowpro), I have to confess, the more I listen to the Elrogs the more I'm in near awe in what they offer. If they prove to be reliable and durable I'll consider them one of my best audio purchases ever. For people who own a high quality 300b amplifier and cherish natural/organic realism of sound, this is your tube. Music is so alive, present and engaging emotionally with these tubes in use. Honestly striking in my system. It's very difficult to bring a listening session to a close. Matthias, you and your colleagues did a fabulous job with these tubes. Thanks. |
