The only SS amp I ever really liked was the Forte 4. I haven't owned that many SS amps, always a tube guy. If tubes were no longer available, I too, would likely go a First Watt like Charles, or other Nelson Pass product. |
Pani, I have a First Watt J2. It is an excellent SS amp, but I like my Frankenstein 300b amps better.
The J2 goes deeper in the bass is a little more dynamic and has very good resolution, but compared to my Frankenstein 300b amps the trailing edge is shortened and isn't as liquid sounding. Using a video analogy the J2 is 1080p and the tube amp is 4K. The pixels (grain) are smaller.
I like both, but my Franks are more organic sounding and engaging.
Joe
|
How about Audiopax Model 88 ? It is a single ended tube monoblocks that delivers 30 watts per channel. |
And Ayon Crossfire III, it is also an SET putting out close to 30 watts. Has anyone heard them ? |
Pani,
Those 2 amplifiers are worth considering if you're seeking higher power while attempting to maintain the SQ of your Wavac EC 300b. The Ayon Crossfire is a pure DHT tube design. The Audiopax 88 isn't a true SET(if that matters at all to you). It is a very innovative pentode tube(KT 88) that uses these tubes in parallel wired for triode mode.It is a more complicated design than the simpler straight forward Crossfire SET. Both are said to produce excellent sound despite their very different circuits. Both are certainly more powerful(output power rating) than your 300b amp. Will they sound better than your Wavac EC? Only listening will provide the answer. It is logical to assume they'll provide more drive for your Tannoys. I would think either of these may be closer to what you seek compared to the FM Acoustic SS amplifier you tried. |
I heard the monoblock version of the First Watt SIT amplifiers at last summers CAF - driving the Zu Def 4s (a speaker that I know well). They sounded great, but are only 10 watts and run hot (much hotter than my 300b SET). If I needed more power, I would consider an SET amplifier using 845 or 211 tubes. Like Charles, I am firmly in the tube-based SET camp. |
Hi Gary,
I know Srajan Ebaen(6 Moons) prefers the First Watt S.I.T. over any 300b SET he's heard. 213 Cobra and some other gon members tried the S.I.T. but ultimately preferred their own amplifiers(they did think highly of that amp however). Gary, where did the S.I.T fall short compared to your Ancient Audio amplifier? I've been curious to hear it myself. |
Jack Roberts (Dagogo Magazine) recently replaced his Wavac EC-300B with a Pass
Labs xa30.8. He feels the Pass gives him everything that the Wavac gives and
some more. He had also reviewed the SIT earlier but he preferred the Wavac to
the SIT....interesting! |
Pani,
There's an audiogon member who recently replaced his Pass Labs INT-30A(XA30.5 with preamp function added) with the Coincident Frankenstein 300b SET,what does this suggest? Nothing other than people are moving/changing directions with audio components all the time for a variety of reasons. One person likes amp A better than amp B. Another person prefers amp B to amp A, happens constantly. You should audition the Pass Lab amp with your Tannoys, they are certainly highly praised amplifiers. Who knows, it could be just what you're looking for.
Charles, |
Pani,
Here's an interesting option to consider, the Coincident Turbo 845. It was given a rave review on 6 Moons(and other sites as well) recently and has roughly the same power(28 watts) as the others amps you've mentioned recently. 845 output tube with 300b as the driver tube. Imagine this amp using Elrog 845 and their 300b, could be 'very special' for a very reasonable cost. Just another idea to for more SET power for those Tannoys.
Charles, |
Hi Charles, yes I do get your drift. What is interesting though is Jack Roberts uses a Lowther based Single driver speakers which has a sensitivity of 102db. That speaker probably one of the most ideal candidate for SET which Jack was already using yet it got replaced by a 30.8. Secondly Jack did not feel the SIT monoblocks were an upgrade over his SET but the 30.8 was. These are intriguing stuff. If I could get to audition a 30.8 I could really make a spot decision.
Thanks for the pointer over the 845 based Coincident amp. Interestingly I heard a similar amp made by Line Magnetic audio. It also uses 300B as the driver tubes. However, the 845 character was dominant in the LM amp. |
Pani,
If you are able to hear this Pass amp, post your listening impression. |
Hello all.
This discussion is just what I am looking for. I want to upgrade my tubes and these two appear to be the best options.
This discussion seems to be about using these tubes in Wavac and Frankenstein amps.
Does anyone have experience using either of these tubes in Cary 211 series amps?
Thanks.
Paul |
I don't have the Takatsuki's, so this post is possibly off-topic. But I do have the Elrog 300Bs (third production series), and the EML 300B-XLS, so maybe my remarks are of some tangential interest. First observation about the Elrogs: they are dead quiet; second: huge bass (which is not generally a characteristic of 300Bs). There is no denying the XLS's power, however, their effortless handling of transients, and silky midrange. Well... a tough call, both are most excellent valves, and certainly outclass any Russian glass. In my system they drive Tannoy Lockwoods (about 94db), so power is not really the issue. On balance I guess I tip towards the Elrogs for refinement and ease of listening. But if I put on the Wagner... it's got to be XLS. |
Teretubozo, Thanks for the comparison. Not off topic at all. |
When I listen to very dynamic big band jazz the EML XLS really deliver the scale, power and size of the band in all of its glory. It really uncovers the full weight and textures of instruments individually and also as a full ensemble. Yet it does justice to smaller scala music as well. I can't wait to get the Elrog tubes and compare them to the EML.
Charles, |
I have the Takasukis and like them a lot.
I paid for a pair of 'cosmetically challenged' EML 300B XLS tubes directly from Jac Music on Feb 15.--he failed to getting around to shipping the tubes for 11 days after that. He also refused to respond to multiple inquiries from me during this period asking what was going on (his invoice and emails stated tubes would be shipped immediately upon payment). One screw up and excuse after another from Jac; I'm now out the the $ I paid for the tubes plus the cost of shipping regular 300Bs back to him that he sent 'by mistake' and I have no tubes. He promised to send me a pair of non cosmetically challenged 300B XLS tubes at no additional cost if I paid return shipping. Per the shipper the returned tubes have cleared German customs are being held for him because Jac requested his own pickup (Jac claims the tubes haven't cleared customs, so either he or the shipper is not being truthful with me).
The tubes may be great but buyer beware. |
I bought my EML from TubesUSA.com and the customer service is top notch. I am buying my Elrogs from them also. |
I've bought tubes from George at TubesUSA before as well and always
received great service.
I foolishly decided to try and save a few bucks and buy a pair of
'cosmetically challenged' 300B XLS tubes directly from Jac Music; I wasn't
sure re the XLS tubes and so thought I'd dip my toes in the water with the
discounted tubes. Unfortunately, I didn't receive XLS tubes, returned the
regular 300Bs that were shipped to me, but still have no XLS tubes as were
promised.
So strongly urge USA buyers to purchase through TubesUSA; I am
confident George will take good care of you. |
I should add a couple of technical points: The Elrog keeps to the original WE spec inasmuch as it draws a filament current of 1.2A at 5V (as does the Takatsuki). The eml XLS draws about 25% more current than this. Most 300B amps can handle this no problem, but they will run hotter as a result (recall that components such as chokes are sensitive to the square of the current that runs through them -- if the current is 25% higher, the square of the current will be 56% higher). Mine runs noticeably cooler with the Elrogs than with the XLS, adjusted for the same volume levels.
However, it's not the case that the Elrog is a WE clone. The fact that thoriated tungsten is used means the gain and transconductance are quite different from the classical WE. First of all, this means you have to turn the volume up on your amp a bit to generate the same sound pressure, but more than that: the frequency response is also different --- you should expect a different-sounding valve. The tone colours and the bass in particular are markedly different, in a way that's difficult to put into words. In fact some people have suggested it should not be called a 300B at all, even though it is a plug-and-play replacement.
As I see it, the Takatsuki is a finely-crafted 'homage' to the original WE (pre-1980s). It keeps to the WE specs and curves almost exactly. If you're looking for the vintage sound, this is the one to have (apart from a pre-1980s WE itself, of course). If you want to push the envelope of what's possible with modern valve technology married with old-skool German workmanship, then the ER is a great choice.
But I realise from reading over this thread that many (most?) of the contributors here are (North) American, and up to now there has been a limited production allotment of Erlogs to the US market.. most of the first three production runs over the past seven months run has gone into Germany, Spain, Denmark, Holland, and Italy. So I don't want to steal your thunder.. when you get the valves, please draw your own conclusions. |
Teruterubozo, thanks for a good post. I read somewhere that the Elrog 300b produces 20% less power. Did you hear that effect ? Did you hear any kind of dynamic compression when you go as loud with the Elrog as you would go with Takatsuki ? |
The early reports on the Elrog 300b have been consistently high praise . I
like that Elrog didn't attempt to merely clone the W.E. But instead to better
it sonically and go further. I had the opportunity to hear the re-issue version
of the Western Electric 300b tube in my amplifier and frankly I was
disappointed. I certainly hope that the vintage Western electric 300b is
better, if not then there is much hype surrounding this tube. I honestly
believe however that some amplifiers are specifically voiced to mate with
the sound of the Western electric 300b. I don't believe my amplifier was
voice this way, it sounds so much better with a modern type 300b such as
the EML, just better across the board. Back in January of this year 6 moons
did a feature on the Elrog 300b and compared it to the Western electric,
their conclusion was the Western electric was softer and fuzzy and lacked
bass. Even though they were using an entirely different amplifier from mine,
those general characteristics of the W.E. in my amplifier came across the
same. Soft, less defined sounding and less articulate. It was simply
outclassed by both the Takatsuki and the EML XLS,they are more
transparent, clear and nuanced.
The irony is, I found both of these tubes in fact more musical and
emotionally involving than the Western Electric tube. My Elrogs are
scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, I look forward to hearing these tubes
in my amplifier. |
Charles, Everyone,
Thanks much. As the future owner of 300B again this information really helps the decision of where to begin and to spend wisely. This journey shoul be a lot of fun. Best. |
Charles, please let us know what you think of the Elrogs. |
I'll post on my system page. |
Charles, are we there yet, are we there yet? LOL, you are in a unique position. Almost like the first man to see the dark side of the moon. Having taken the plunge on the Elrogs, and having loved them without reservation since day one, I am as you know ever so curious what you think, especially with respect to the EMLs and Taks. The good think is, I have a set of tubes I could live with forever. |
Hi Bill,
My wife just told me that the tube package arrive today. I am out of town but will be back home tomorrow, I do look forward to hearing these unique tubes and comparing them to my other favorites. The Frankenstein has clearly and easily revealed the character of every single 300b I have tried thus far. In that 6 Moons review article I had referenced earlier they use the top-of-the-line Thomas Mayer SET amplifier. Yet their description of the sonic character of the Western Electric was identical to what I heard in my system.
Charles, |
Hi Rob,
Admittedly there are certainly other excellent options and choices in amplifiers besides a 300b SET amplifier. And within this 300b amplifier niche there are certainly other very fine choices besides the Coincident Frankenstein amplifier. I will say that this amp with the top level 300bs installed is definitely a musical Thrill to enjoy. I believe it would be terrific with your Tekton Lore speakers. A wonderful match of speaker and amplifier that doesn't cost excessive money.
Charles, |
Oops,
Rob I just remembered that you and your wife are going to be building and using the Audio Note Kit amplifier. Still, my point is the same, an excellent amplifier and speaker combination that should bring both of you much joy for many years. |
I listened to my new Elrog 300b today and I'll get to the point, this is a new standard of excellence for me. It does not blow away, embarrass or cause jaws dropping to the floor compared to Takatsuki and the EML XLS. No hyperbole is necessary as I feel these two 300bs are true reference quality and have bettered every other 300b I've tried. In terms of bass and dynamic ability the Elrog equals but doesn't surpass either(at least at this early stage).
The strength of the TAK and EML are balanced sound top to bottom, realistic, honest tone and timbre of instruments and voice. Comparing these to each other, the TAK just a "bit" more organic and refined. EML a "bit" more robust with authority particularly with larger scale music, but overall both are top tier in my amplifier.Just below these two are the AVVT 32B SL, Sophia RP and the KR 300b XLS.
The Elrog moves ahead in providing superior resolution,clarity of the nuances and low level information. This is a feat because the TAK/EML excel in this area. Elrog takes it further and has more presence and 'feel' factor. The sense of living humans singing and playing real instruments is first rate. Again a compliment considering how high a standard the other two set in this regard.
The breath of life factor is higher with the Elrog, you just hear and are aware of the tactile presence of instrumental energy. The air in the room seems to vibrate and is charged with natural sound about you. The Elrog offers more tonal and color/harmonic saturation closer to what you'd experience in a live setting. This is for me very impressive given the stout competition and quality of the two other reference tubes.
For my fellow 300b amp brothers, the Elrog is an absolutely superb tube if the objective is natural sound and increased realism. It moves a small but definite step beyond my two references but is not a "night and day" difference. All three of them will provide wonderful sound and enhance music loving involvement. If I could only choose one, the Elrog leads this stellar trio. I wonder how much impact the particular amplifier has on tube preference. I can only speak for results with my Coincident Frankenstein SET amp.
Charles, |
I realize there's no mention of soundstage and imaging. If you have a good system set up all 3 of these tubes will only enrich those aspects. I tend to just focus on the characteristics that make or break it for me. If the tone/timbre isn't right or the sound is hifish rather than natural/organic, I lose all interest.
One more point concerning the Elrog, you get the "full note", not just the attack. The note substain,decay is all there, full saturation is presented. No artificial speed/transient attack and nothing else type sound. |
That's high praise and with more hours it should only get better!
Thanks Charles, please give us updates once the tubes have more hours. |
80 posts latter, we have the answer :-)
Thank you so very much Charles! |
There we have it folks, now we have seen the dark side of the moon. Charles, having had the Elrogs in my Franks for a while, I certainly agree with your assessment. Based on my experience, I would have been somewhat surprised had you come to any other conclusion. Good listening! |
Thank you Charles and Brownsfan. |
Bill,
How much improvement did you notice with your Elrogs as you accumulated more hours on them? They are so good with only a few hours(24 hour factory burn in). Bill, I can honestly say this tube in the Frankenstein is a stunningly good match. I am sure the same is true of other high quality 300b amplifiers as well. Given the pure satisfaction I have with the EML and Takatsuki(again better than everything else other than the Elrog) I wasn't sure of what to expect.
The Elrog has a lower amplifying factor and actually has a lower maximum power output than other 300bs, but it counters with 'higher current' delivery. Based on what I'm hearing, the current must be more significant than output power capability (at least in this case). The sound is "more" alive,vibrant, energetic and saturated not less. The music opens up, blooms, breaths and there's increased ambiance awareness and communication.
I don't know how much of what I am hearing has to do with thoriated tungsten filaments. I'll say this, they sure aren't hurting the sound. Based on my listening I can't imagine how any music lover wouldn't fall for this tube in a good SET amplifier. I'm still surprised the Elrog has more resolution/transparency than the superb Takatsuki, it was the king in this respect(with EML a close second). Once again, the 3 dimensional density and human presence factor is just special. Jazz drummers if well recorded have wonderful snap,impact and authenticity. These tubes absolutely increase the startle factor.
Charles, |
Looks like there's a new Tube in town!
Thanks so much Charles! |
Charles, due to my current situation I'm only getting about 5 hours a week on the Elrogs. I do think they are improving, but its hard to say for sure with so few hours and extended times between sessions. They are so good I'm not inclined to leave the system on while I can't listen critically just to speed up burn in.
I also have no issues with the decreased output. For other owners of Franks, this shouldn't be an issue.
As you know, I tend to be fairly restrained in my assessment of new tubes, so as not to influence people with hyperbole, personal preference, or system dependent synergy. I expect you noticed my departure from form with this tube. These tubes are so very good I just couldn't restrain myself. You have done a nice job on capturing the notable attributes. With respect to my Psvane Ts, the Elrogs are an improvement in every respect. |
Thanks Fla, yes this is a wonderful tube in my system. I do however like to remind people that these impressions are based on my particular listening preferences in my amplifier and system. Certainly as with anything else there will be differences of opinion and ranking order.
Charles, |
If I were Israel Blume, I'd offer a Coincident Frankenstein Premium package. Elrog 300b and the Mullard GZ37 rectifier tube. It wouldn't be cheap nor ultra expensive either(within reach of a lot of people). With a proper efficient speaker it would keep many folks off the money draining High End merry go round. People could simply sit back and indulge in their music library with sheer joy.
Charles, |
Charles,
Your a bit confused about my 300B future. I am going to purchase the Coincident Franks and Pre with the 101 as soon as my new house is ready; I will have my own dedicated 18x20x9 listening room. My wife is going to build the AN-Kit One a bit after settling-in. I'm keeping the Dynamo in my office. A while back I sold my Cary 300B SEI. I will be selling my Cary V12 and Primaluna Dialogue One. I was thanking you, Brownsfan and others about your take on the Various 300B tube which will save me $$$$ in the long term. Your experience will allow me to go directly to Elrog, EML, and/or Tatkasuki and not spend on lower level product. I did like the Black Treasure in the Cary SEI. Looking forward to talking more about your Elrog experience as you get more time on them. Congratulations! Best. |
Also, I'm positive the Tektons will match beautifully with any of the discussed amps; the AN Kit my wife builds will be paired with either the larger Lore, or perhaps we go all in on a newer Tekton model. As for my room it's likely time to say good-bye to my Infinity Prelude Composition (about 15 yrs. old) and step-up to Coincident, Tannoy, Daedalus speakers if they match ok. I' going to hit some shows, travel to NYC, LA, etc., hopefully this will be end game for Amp, Pre and Speakers. |
I just left Charles home and spent a couple of hours with him listening to his new Elrogs. All I can say is that they are fantastic. I notice a lot more bass weight and foundation yet they are very open and clear on top. I think they are smoother less grainy if thats possible. Wonderful wonderful tube. |
Jeff,
Thanks for your comments and it was fun having you drop by my home today. Our systems are very different in terms of components and room acoustics, yet both reproduce music beautifully in their unique way. Both systems emphasize the natural sound approach.
Rob,
Yes I thought the AN Kit amplifier instead of the Frankenstein. Given your plans, you and your wife will have a home filled with wonderful sound in multiple rooms. Great plan!
Charles, |
Rob,
As you read above, Jeff heard my system today. He knows my system intimately and thought as highly of the Takatsuki and EML XLS as I do. My advice if you can swing it, get the Elrogs for your Frankenstein. Start at the top with this combination, there'll be no looking back or second guessing.
Charles, |
Charles, I plan to do just that. I feel like the kid in school looking over your shoulder for good notes. I really trust your ears, Brownsfan, Rebbi, Jwm, too, amongst others. All your musical values are very similar. Looking forward to your continuing comments regarding all things audio. |
Oh, forgot to mention, I got a High Wycombe 378 in anticipation of the Franks purchase. |
Rob,
That was a wise decision. That is the hard to find fat bottle version I believe. You're on the right path for sure. |
Charles, I take it you can just drop in the Mullard GZ37 in the rectifier location on the Franks? I'm still pretty new to this game...
P.S. I kind of wish there hadn't been such a positive impression of these Elrog tubes. I was all set to spend half that on a used pair of EMLs (in 6 months). Now the list of desired objects is increasing, and the funds absorbed by them is doing the same. |
Cal3713,
The Mullard GZ37 is a simple plug in and play replacement rectifier tube. Cal, I tried to emphasize while conveying my Elrog description that the EML XLS and Takatsuki are still excellent choices. It's not as though I didn't enjoy listening until the Elrog came along(far from it). Believe me those two tubes will be an asset for any 300b amp owner. Please don't get the impression that a used EML wouldn't be an exceptionally good move.That's why I attempted to avoid hyperbole and risk going overboard with the comparisons/contrasts of these 3 top level tubes.
The Elrog does advance some attributes of the other two, Overall it is the best sounding of the 3 tubes by a modest but noticeable degree. that modest gap is worthy of recognition considering the stiff competition. The Takatsuki and EML were by no means "blown away". At some point you rank top tier items(all three tubes in this case)and the Elrog is my top choice.
Given a person's particular listening values and different system and or amplifier, someone else could possibly prefer a 300b other than the Elrog (even if that puts them in the minority). Cal, if your hearing/listening criteria are similar to mine you'll appreciate the 3 tubes under discussion but ultimately choose the Elrog.
Charles, |
