Hi Scifi,
I agree 100% with your comments concerning Georgr Lenz.
Funny you mention Audio Kinesis speakers. Before settling on Coincident speakers I had seriously considered the Audio Kinesis Jazz Module speaker(92 db and 16 ohm load). Others that interested me were Horning,Ocellia and Tonian Labs Classic 12.1. I've always been very impressed with Duke Lejeune's contributions and demeanor on this site. He comes across as someone with class and integrity, which you've confirmed. No doubt his speaker is excellent in your system and mates beautifully with the Frankenstein amplifier. Scifi, lets hope our replacement Elrogs withstand the test of time.
Charles, |
Charles,
For sure let's hope that the new and improved Elrogs produce outstanding music for many many hours!!
I see that you have the matching Coincident Line Stage preamp. What can you tell me about it. If it is anything like the Franks it must be outstanding.
I am currently running an Allnic L3000 which is pretty darn good in its own right but I'm very tempted to sell it and purchase the Coincident. Your thoughts!
Thanks,
Scifi |
Hi Scifi,
It is a terrific Line Stage, every bit as good as the Frankenstein. You can email me for more detail if you'd like.
Charles, |
Guys,
Where does one buy the Elrog 300B in the US? A couple of online dealers are saying they will not take anymore orders until the factory catches up with the demand. |
Ddriveman, I just bought a pair for my Golden Gate dac from member 'Valvesaglowin'. TubesUSAGeorge was very patient and helpful on the phone. my pair are suppose to arrive on Tuesday. he is located in New York State. |
Ddriveman,
It would be fascinating to compare the effects of the Elrog in your 300 SET and Berning 300b ZOTL Siegfried amplifiers, very curious about that outcome. Could be something very special. |
I have been an audiogon user for more than 10 years. I read audiogon forums often, but I never posted anything. Today I will make my first post.
Elrog 300B failure could be one of the two scenarios or both:
1. Elrog 300B has problem itself.
2. Some of Frankensteins 300B amplifiers if not all have design issues -- huge current surge when the power is turning on. As a result, tubes failed prematurely.
I used to own a pair of CST Frankensteins II 300B amplifiers. The stock tube failed within a month. Within a year, I had encountered 4 300B tube failures. I emailed the designer when I had my 2nd 300B failured. I was assured that the amplifier has no problem, I can use any 300B tubes for the amps, but the problem is I continued to encounter 300B tube failure. After a few month of search, I found a very reputable repairman in California. After he inspected the amps, he told me there was a design issue: huge current surge when the power is turning on. As a result, 300B tubes failed prematurely. |
Hi Wjt2005, I wonder if this problem was unique to your particular Frankenstein? I've owned mine for over 6 years and haven't experienced this issue(except for the original Elrogs). I can't speak for other Frankenstein MK II owners but I haven't seen feedback suggesting it's a common problem. It's certainly possible other Franks owners may share your same problem. |
I don't think so. I remember someone made similar complaint last year when we had an audiophile gathering. |
Well the fact that I haven't had the same tube failures with the same amplifier would suggest it isn't every Frankenstein amp. All I'm saying is how widespread might this issue be? 10,35 or 80% of all Franks? I don't know. |
After I searched the net, I got this one from Sophia Electric website. This user seemed had issues as well. Maybe you are the lucky one.
------------------------------------------------------
Received date: July 9, 2014
Dear Sue of Sophia Electric:
I am rediscovering my music collection with my new Sophia Electric 91-01 amplifiers.
Rewind a few years back. Based, in part, upon Arthur Salvatore’s recommendation, I purchased a pair of CST Frankensteins II 300B amplifiers. Later on I purchased a pair of CST Pure Reference speakers.
After reading reviews, I tried the Full Music carbon plate 300Bs. One of them died prematurely within a few months. Later on, I tried the KR tubes, again trying to extend the curve. One of them died prematurely within a week. Fortunately, I got my money back. Finally, I ordered the Sophia Electric Royal Princess 300B tubes. For a few days I experienced an enhanced curve I had thought unattainable with a 300B power tube. After a few days (less than a week to my recollection) of listening (I say days as I am retired and actually listen to music most of the day), the same side had a “fireworks” of failure. Again prematurely. I spoke to Sue at Sophia and explained what happened. Without hesitation, she sent a new pair after I explained to her that I would have an audio tech look at it. The technician found nothing wrong with the CST amps. I even called the designer of the CST amps who said “You can use any tube you want”. This was after I related to him what happened. I quickly lost faith in these CST Frankensteins amps. The CST speakers though are still going strong.
Based in part on Jeff Day’s review which I read and re-read, I purchased the Sophia Electric 91-01 300B amplifiers. I got them about a week later. That was about two weeks ago. And now, I am re-discovering my music collection! I hear sounds at the “outside ends” of the listening curve that I never knew were recorded on the medium. Wow! Congratulations Sophia Electric! You have made a believer from me. The down side, of course, is that you can tell very easily when a recording has been badly made.
The 91-01 amps put out about 8 watts per side. Of course, if you are looking for what I call “megawatts” amplifier, do not look here. So you need speakers that are of “easy to drive” if not rated “high efficiency”. Parenthetically, after the CST “killed” three 300B tubes, I used my “spare” amplifier, producing two watts per side, and my speakers had no problem whatsoever. I guess the end result is “if the first watt sucks, why keep going” as the manufacturer of that two watts per channel amplifier said.
You may notice that I do not use technical terms anywhere in what I wrote. The answer is simple. I do not know the meaning of these technical terms. I do not write about something I know nothing about. But I do know about music. When I was working and could afford it, I went to a lot of concerts of “live” music. And to me, that is the only way to learn about music.
If you want to hear all of your music (from a recorded media), you cannot go wrong with Sophia Electric.
Jac
---------------------------------------------------------- |
Maybe other Frankenstein MK II owners will share their experiences. I can only comment on my 6 years of ownership and I haven't had these premature tube failures. AVVT SL 32, EML, Takatsuki and Shuguang Black treasure. I've used these 4 different tubes long term(more than 3 years) without any failure issues. So far the replacement Elrogs are doing fine.
So for whatever reason there may be, my outcome isn't the same as yours or Jac's experience. |
Brownsfan, Drdavid, Scifi or Snowpro, have you Frank owners had early tube failure issues? |
I'm only about a year in, but I have not yet had any tube failures on my pair of Franks (and continue to love them).
- Chris |
I've had my Franks about three years and used Shuguang Black Treasures, Takatsuki's and now the second generation Elrog' 300b's without even a hickup. They are spectacular.
|
Charles,
I haven't had my Franks as long as you have but have never experienced any other tube failures with them other than one of my Elrogs. I have used the stock Shuguang Black Treasures (briefly) as well as VAIC VV300b which were manufactured in the 90s when KR and VAIC were one company.
When I asked Israel about using different brands of 300b tubes he did tell me to stay away from Sophia Royal Princess as they couldn't handle the voltage levels of the Franks. It appears that the Franks create higher voltage levels than other 300b amps...this was alluded to by WJT2005 but in a slightly different context than I think Israel meant it with his comments about suitable 300b choices.
Others he mentioned as being ok were the Taks which he spoke very highly of, Elrogs only the newer ones that have been rebuilt to handle the higher voltages, older KRs but not ones made within the last 5 years, EML XLS which he really liked but not their mesh plates which were prone to microphonics.
Hope this his helps with the discussion about reliability.
From on my own experience these amps are by far the quietest tube amps I have ever owned and I have owned a bunch. I can't believe that even with my ear right up to the compression drivers on my speakers there is virtually no noise. Now that's really unprecedented in my experience with tube amps.
Scifi
|
So this is my point, not everyone has had early 300b
tube failure with the Frankenstein MK II. The question is how often is this problem occurring and what % of amplifiers are affected?
Markus I'm glad you are having the same wonderful Franks with Elrog tubes result as I am.
Chris, I am happy the Franks have worked out so well in your system. Wow! its been a year for you already? |
Charles,
i forgot to add that I'm really enjoying the Franks very much. They make listening to music such a pleasurable experience. I find myself more engaged in the listening process with these amps than any other I've ever owned and I've been into audio since 1969! Damn I'm old!
Scifi |
Scifi,
That's quite a compliment for the Frankenstein considering your coming off recent ownership of the highly esteemed Joule OTL amplifiers. Increased music listening engagement is the Frankenstein's best attribute in my opinion.
Charles, |
got my Elrog 300b's today for my single ended Golden Gate and I've been listening for the last 3 hours. I'm very impressed right from the start. this is the magic I've been looking for. Very very sexy sounding. It has that mid-range fire and
sparkle, along with a seemingly lower noise floor and micro-dynamic energy
which makes the music more real and engaging. Very nice bass decay and
soundstage space and overall presence. It has a lovely texture and nuance. just a very refined sound. it seems fine with large and small scale music. loves piano and strings. so real sounding and goose bump inducing. a friend warned me away from these so there is that concern. but my ears are loving these Elrogs. I do have a very good stable power grid with an Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel system with 10kva isolation transformer. and the dac is not stressed. so far all is well and I'm very happy. thanks for all the info pushing me toward this decision.
|
I've just ordered a pair of Elrog 300B from George Lenz. Will post once I received them and get to try them. Thanks for suggesting George as a source for the Elrogs. |
Mike,
It is interesting that the superb sonic characteristics of the Elrog ER 300b is consistent regardless of their use in a DAC or power amplifier. Your listening impressions very closely matches what I hear with them placed in my SET amplifier. I hope you get many years of listening joy from them.
|
God, I know Charles. I bought them on 01/13/15. Time goes too quickly. |
Thank you all for your informative discussions.
I have a Lampizator 7 and leaning towards the purchase of the Elrog ER 300b.
Off topic. If I purchase the Elrogs with a credit card that has extended warranty protection, I am able to extend the manufacturer's warranty coverage by one additional year. If it fails after 6 months or thereafter, will I be covered? : )
|
I promised to post periodically on my 2nd pair of Elrogs, so here it is. One of the replacement tubes failed today unfortunately. The past week that channel would go silent sporadically and then sound would return. When I turned the amplifier on today the tube in that mono block didn't illuminate, it was dead. Very disappointing to report this, but that's the reality. I put in my EML XLS and they are just cruising along as usual.
I had the highest hope for the Elrog ER 300 given there superb sound. I have to realize that the Elrog just may not be the right tube for the Coincident Frankenstein. The EML and Takatsuki in terms of reliability are the better match. The EML is a very robust tube and appears to be ideal for this particular amplifier. Mine are 3 years old and test exactly as they did the first day I got them. They are sounding excellent right now, just not quite as good as the Elrogs which were near magical.
With all factors considered the EML XLS is going to be my "work horse go to" 300b. It just seems made for the Frankenstein's operating parameters with its rugged tube internal construction and higher current capabilities. People using the Elrog is DACs or different amplifiers may hopefully have success with these tubes. Well I took my chance with this special tube but apparently it wasn't meant to be.
Charles, |
Sorry, meant their (not there) superb sound.
|
Charles, very sorry to hear that your replacements did not work out. Mine are still OK, but I am getting very little listening time in these days. Less now than when I was working. I suspect that you have drawn the right conclusion. In the event my replacement tubes fail prematurely, I will probably also go the EML route. |
Charles,
Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that one of your Elrogs has gone bad. It sounds like a repeat performance of what happened to me.
Perhaps there is some hope on the horizon in that a "new batch" should be to George any day now..... Well I hope anyday now since shipment was to be made two weeks ago. He told me that these were supposed to be even better than the batch from which mine and perhaps yours came from.
Since yours are within the one year warranty period they will undoubtedly be replaced with some others. I guess you can choose to use them and roll the dice once again or just resell them "as new".
How do the Taks compare to the EMLs?
Hang my in there my friend,
Scifi |
Sorry to hear that Charles |
Well, I willingly acknowledge The risk with this different type of 300b variant and proceeded with both eyes fully open. Other Frankenstein owners may have a better outcome with a newer batch of Elrogs, tough to say. It's such an exceptionally good sounding tube in my amplifier that I wanted so badly for it to be reliable long term. I informed George(tubesusa) he'll follow up with me. These are very expensive tubes and they have to offer long term durability to make the high cost worthwhile,
Hi Scifi,
Takatsuki vs EML XLS,
I really enjoy and cherished both of them over a 3 year period. This is such a true example of individual taste and probably system synergy as well. I listen to the EML XLS more often, it has a "bit" more dynamic authority and scale and is organic and communicates emotion effectively. The Takatsuki is very organic, a "bit" lighter in presentation and very refine in character, maybe a "bit" sweeter. Nitpicking aside both are true reference standard 300b tubes and simply excellent sounding in my system
I suspect most 300b aficionados might prefer the Takatsuki say 55 to 45 from a sample size group of 100 (pure speculation I admit). I give a modest edge to the EML XLS for its added punch and open large scale sound in my system. As I have implied, you couldn't possibly go wrong with either tube. They both have proven track records of reliability, I can attest to that.
Charles, |
Update,
It has been suggested to me from a very trusted source that the Frankenstein amplifier would benefit in changing the cathode resistor value from 1000 ohms to 1200 ohms. This is said to lessen the stress on the cathode when the amplifier is powered up (reducing turn on surge) . I was told this simple swap will result in significantly longer tube life by stressing the 3oob tube less with a lower initial surge upon turning on the amplifier. I was informed this will benefit "all" 300b tubes not just the Elrog. Another suggestion was regulating the AC wall voltage range to keep within 115-120 volts. The cathode resistor change is highly recommended from this source.
Given the cost of these tubes (all premium level 300bs) this simple and inexpensive fix seems wise, I'm going to do it. I was also told that this modification won't change the sound character of the amplifier. I will report my findings once I complete this task.
Charles, |
Hi Jetrexpro,
You have much hands on experience with parts and modifications (along with Grannyring and . Do you have any particular recommendations for cathode resistors?
Thanks,
Charles,
|
Charles, The 300b cathode resistor is actually one part in my amp that I have not changed so I have no experience how different brands would affect the sound. They have to dissipate lots of heat so are pretty large. Maybe Grannyring or Salectric would have some experience. Also try the Audio Asylum Tube DIY thread for a good sounding 300b cathode resistor. My cathode resistor is pretty cool. It has various lead outs which give different resistances. The one time I noticed an improvement in sound was when I used to use Sophia Electric Mesh plate 300b tubes. I increased the resistance which lowered the stress on the Sophia Mesh and it did sound a bit better, so its possible with some tubes you may notice a sound change. |
Hi Jet, The resistor needed is 1,2K ohms/10 watts. Yes, as you say raising the resistance(slightly in this case) lowers the "turn on" stress on the 300b.I'm looking forward to doing this and will see what happens. George contacted me this morning and said I'll have a replacement sent in about 3 weeks. As usual he's right on top of things (utterly supportive). I was told the brand of resistor isn't particularly important for this application. But I figure may as well go high quality, good parts always seem to make a difference even if only subtle sometimes.
Charles, |
Charles1dad,
Really sorry to hear of your Elrog problem.; but isn't it great that folks like George provides solid support, Jetrexpro or Grannyring, or Salectric do provide sound advice along with that stalwart named Almarg...good luck. Best, Rob |
Charles, I would suggest a resistor at least 20 watts in this position. The heat you are dissipating could be from 6 to 8 watts. For instance the original Joe Roberts WE91a schematic calls for a 50watt resistor in this position. You could also go with two Mills 2.4k 12 watt resistors in parallel. That would give you a 1.2k / 24w resistor. I believe a 10 watt resistor will be burnin hot and too close to its max tolerance. |
Charles1dad, that is great of George to send you another pair of replacement tubes, but why not just ask for a refund? So far you have had 2 separate Elrog 300B tube failures and to date you have been lucky that the failures did not result in any damage to your amps. Why push your luck? If a refund is not available, do you intend to sell the replacement tubes in an attempt to recoup some of your investment?
I just crossed Elrog off my Christmas list.
|
Excellent comments by Jet just above, regarding the power rating of the replacement resistor(s). And I note in this schematic, which was referenced earlier in the thread, that a 25 watt rating is shown for the present 1K resistor. In general, it is good practice to "derate" a resistor's power rating (i.e., to have the rating exceed the expected actual dissipation) by at least a factor of 2 and preferably more. Rob, thanks for the kind comment :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Jet and Al,
Following my earlier post I spoke with George and he also suggested a larger value watt rating resistor would be fine even though the amplifier uses a 10 watt cathode resistor. 20 watts it will be! Thanks gentlemen for valued input.
Brf,
You make a good point but I am determined to see this through with the resistor suggestion. The Elrog is wonderful sounding and I really enjoy listening to them. If the Elrog fails again despite the resistor swap then that's it for me and I'm back to EML and Takatsuki. If a 5-10 dollar part can prolong the lifespan and reliability of 1500.00 dollar tubes I'm willing to give it a try. I accept the potential risk and will blame no one if things don't work out.
Charles,
|
Its amazing to touch a 12w Mills resistor that is dissipating only 3-4 watts and it be too hot to touch. No one tells you these things when you first start out in DIY. Best thing to do is to look at lots of schematics and see what ratings for the caps and resistors they use in the various positions. Charles I'll be interested to find out what brand of resistor you eventually go with. Jet |
Jet,
I'm going to use the Mundorf wire wound resistors,1.2K ohms/25 watts, 2.50 USD each. There weren't many choices in these higher watt range. Lots of choices in the lower .75 -5 watt range. |
Charles
Since you have done the research on these resistors where did you locate them online??
Tom |
Charles, I am encouraged by the advice rendered by your very trusted source. Perhaps my PS 10, which provides a reduced start up current for the Franks, coupled with the ability to regulate the voltage at 115, will do the trick for me. As I said, I am getting very little listening time in these days due to my hiking. The upside is that I lost 6 lbs of belly fat last week. I really hope at the end of all of this that we find a solution permitting reliable service from the elrogs. Its going to be hard taking a step back, if it comes to that. |
Tom,
You can get them from Parts connexion.com, they're in Canada.
Bill,
Your use of the PS 10 is a very good decision.
I'm glad you're able to fulfill your goal of hiking in the mountains of Tennessee. Six pounds of belly fat in a week? That's some serious hiking, keep it up.
Charles,
|
Charles, make that 7 pounds! We are finally getting settled in enough that I can really pursue the hiking for all it is worth. The hiking has been wonderful, and my wife has gotten back into it like in the old days. The endorphin rush, the beautiful views, the company of my beloved, and the track of Bach's St. Matthew Passion running in my head eight hours a day is hard to beat. By the time I get home, I do well to make it through dinner before passing out. I have been hiking so much that those days when I don't are utterly consumed with volunteer work, yard maintenance (yes, I mowed my grass again 2 days ago dressed in shorts and a T) etc. Perhaps there will come some icy weather, which is pretty much what it takes to keep me off the trails.
I have a stack of CD's sitting on my desk that I haven't had time to listen to yet. While there have been a few surprises associated with the move, this decision has worked out even better than I had hoped in most respects. |
Charles, unfortunately one of my replacement Elrog tubes failed also. George is going to replace them once he gets a suitable pair in.
I'll be waiting for your opinion on the resistor replacement ,hopefully the sound won't be degraded. If it makes them last in our amps that would be great, fingers crossed. They are wonderful sounding tubes to bad we're having issues with them.
Oh well, I put back the EML's and they sound very good with nice dynamics and drive, not as musical as the Elrogs but, I can easily live with them in my Franks along with the Taks.
Joe |
Bill,
Man, I'm so happy you and your wife reached your goals and are able to live out your dreams. This is what good planning and determination lead to. I know how good it feels to exercise and get back in physical shape, there's no downside to this approach. Keep on exploring those mountain trails Bill.
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Hi Joe,
Hopefully the cathode resistor swap will be the answer, only time will tell. The EML XLS is a terrific tube and the past two nights they have provided me with very enjoyable listening sessions without question.
Although in direct comparison I'd choose the Elrog, it does not by any measure embarrass the EML. The Elrog is subtly better in certain areas that are noticeable at this very high level. The EML is a bit more dynamic (small margin) and has a very lively energetic presentation with very gone tonality and timbre. The Elrog is a bit more organic and as you note nuanced. Bottom line the Frankenstein sounds really good with these two tubes as well as the refined Takatsuki. The EML is a superb value given its performance/price ratio and its excellent durability.
George Lenz told me recently that some long term owners have reach 40,000 hours of use with the EML XLS and they still are testing like new. Now that's impressive!
Charles, |
Pani,
I have heard one of the First Watt amps (cannot remember the specific model) in my system for about two weeks (borrowed from a friend). I liked it a lot--smooth, clear and lively. Yes, there was a bit of brittleness and an artificially hard edge to the initial attack of some notes (common to solid state), but, it was still a very nice sounding amp. Unlike a lot of other solid state amps, it did not sound flat and lifeless when playing at soft or moderate volume levels. It also sounded harmonically rich and dense (a lot of solid state and high-powered pushpull tube amps fail in this respect). As far as practical concerns, I found it a reasonably easy amp to use--no pops or other noise on turn-on or turn-off, no other problems during my time of usage. But, like most solid state gear, it takes longer to warm up and really sound its best than tube gear; one possible approach would be to leave it on most of the time). Although I have not heard other Pass gear in my own system, I have not been favorably impressed the times I have heard their non-First Watt gear.
I own a parallel single-ended 2a3 amp (Audio Note Kageki) a pushpull 45 amp (Deja Vu Audio) and a pushpull 249 amp. They all have a different sound, and I cannot really say whether this is mainly the characteristic of the topology, differences in components, and/or differences in the tube used. The single-ended amp is very good at sounding relaxed and harmonically rich; I also like how the bass, though not strong and punchy, is "refined" in the way it delivers subtly different tonal structure depending on the music being played. My pushpull 249 amp sound more punchy in the bass, but, that sound is a bit more mechanical and generic and not as subtly differentiated as the bass from the single-ended amp. Still, right now, the pushpull 249 is my favorite amp (somewhat difficult to compare with the Kageki because the 249 amp has transformer inputs and works best with my full transformer input and output linestage).
If I had to pick an amp that is my absolute favorite, it might well be a custom-built, output transformerless amps that two people I know have in their system. These are extremely dynamic and lively amps that also deliver a very rich harmonic palette. Unfortunately, they are nearly one-ofs, and are a bit scary (no protection circuitry and no transformer between the tubes and the speaker to protect the speakers). The other totally unrealistic candidate I heard is a very old Western Electric 59B amp, which is another ultra dynamic sounding amp; too bad those go for somewhere near $80,000 per channel.
In short, I don't really favor any particular implementation of tube amps; I have heard great sound from all types. As a rough generalization, I tend to like low-powered amps over higher powered amps that use multiple tetrode or pentode tubes to achieve the high power (OTLs being the exception). To me, if someone really needs a lot of power and ability to drive a difficult load, solid state is the better way to go. |
To me, the question is: Why would anyone choose a difficult load where one needs a lot of power and ability to drive that difficult load. There are many ways to make it easier on yourself, likely less costly as well. Best, Rob
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