Electrovoice Duchess IV in California

They are beautiful, and reasonable too.

Pig in a poke, if I ever saw one.  Even if you have heard a pair of these somewhere in the past, you can have no idea about the condition of the drivers.  Unless you have no fear of a total rebuild.  Not to mention the crossover network components which could be in bad shape.  I notice that the seller makes no claims about performance, only that everything inside is "original".  Always a bad sign.  But if a well functioning fully restored pair of these speakers is worth much much more money than the asking, then I guess you have nothing to lose.  This is coming from an idiot who is in love with Beveridge 2SW speakers with their direct-drive amplifiers that seem born to oscillate for reasons that even smarter people cannot fathom.

"They sound is amazing, fantastic imaging and the best midrage you will ever hear."That is a quote from the add. Since they are pick up only I'm sure an audition could be arraigned before purchasing.
lewm, why so down on vintage speakers? If taken care of many still perform excellently. Recapping crossovers is no big deal and unlike a lot of modern drivers with foam surrounds that rot away in 15 years, many of these vintage drivers use paper or treated cloth surrounds that are still in good shape.

So Elliott, you planning a road trip?
BillWojo

Bill,

lewm generally avoids potential problems, nothing wrong with that, but he writes as if anyone would be crazy to consider these.

You and I take more risks. To see and listen first, at that price, I don't even need them but I may move to Calif.

Did you see my other post, I exchanged one of the 15W woofers and removed the L-pads yesterday.

Building my new speaker cables today!

I found a pair of KLH speakers sitting on the curb not far from my house with a sign that said, FREE.  I snagged them and fired them up.   Yeah, they worked but they sounded as if the singers were in a deep well and just getting over a bad sinus congestion.  However, the cabinets were absolute top notch, no cheap MDF or inferior plywood here.   So, I found some subwoofers drivers that work in that cabinet volume and converted them into subwoofers.    

At $2500 for those ElectroVoice, I would be especially critical in my listening before I part with that much money.   

Hello Everyone. so glad I ran into this thread. I happen to be the owner/seller of the above mentioned Duchess IV speakers. I will be glad to answer any questions you may have.
I was almost done posting a real long history of these speakers, how they were acquired, how they sound and why I am selling them, but unfortunately I somehow managed to delete everything before being able to post it. ugh. And I just don’t feel like writing all that all over again, right now. Perhaps at a later time and date. Just disappointed at myself for doing such a stupid thing right now.
One thing I will mention since a poster above had commented on the sound description of these speakers is that they sound similar to Klipschorns except the midrange is smoother in a way that it is not harsh. Everything is original as far as I can tell, and I’m sure a recap of the cross-overs will make these sound even better but I didn’t care to change anything since they sounded fine to me. The attenuators do work but also do have some dead spots on them. The cabinets and grills are in good shape, I’d give them an 8 but your eyes could differ. The woofers can be installed facing towards the back OR towards the front, based on your listening room and desires. The back panel has an opening and screw holes just like the front panel for a somewhat easy reversal. I say somewhat only because the woofers are super heavy, at 48lbs each. So removing them and re-installing them and making sure the wiring is lined up and does not get damaged, is a time consuming procedure, if you are as careful as I am. Besides that, the only other way to really know if you like them or not is of-coarse to make a road trip to so-cal on a nice sunny beach day (almost everyday) and come over for a listen. I have paired them with SET’s, push pulls, solid state of all names and brands and wattage. To my ears, they sound the best (overall) with either EL-84 or similar PP tube amps, or EL-34’s (which I am biased for). Yes they sound great with my 2A3 SET tube amp as well, but only for certain types of music. Again, this is all IMO and to my ears. I’ve gone through all the McIntosh, most fishers, scotts, sherwoods, marantz 8,8b’s, Luxmans, Pilots, Harman Kardon, Sargent Rayment, Laffayete, and more PP tube amps, and have also gone through about 30 pairs or so of vintage speakers.
Selling only because we are moving out of the country. Otherwise, these will go to my grave with me. All the components are still fairly available if you look around (in case one fails or is not up to standard), and at a fairly reasonable price compared to some similar Altecs or Klipsches, Tannoys or Stephens Tru-Sonics. I also happen to have ONE (1) backup midrange horn and driver for one of the speakers that I will include with the sale.

Well, it looks like I managed to bore you all with another long description of these speakers, now, let’s hope it gets posted before I manage to delete it again.
Cheers!!

We'd be listening and toasting a sale if I lived near you!

shotor

I have custom enclosures with all electro-voice drivers from 1958, mine has 15W woofer, 37 lbs. Which one do you have that weighs 48 lbs?

these Model Six are near me, about 1-1/2 hours away. 18" woofers 1/2" thick foam cone. I am chaining myself to the wall so I don't borrow my son and his SUV.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Electro-voice-EV-Model-SIX-6-speakers-mid-century-RARE-HTF/15435153...

I/we have been discussing L-Pads, purists hate them of course, but, they do not realize that these vintage speakers were designed with L-Pads in center attenuation for normal rooms, and then less attenuation for dull rooms, more attenuation for live rooms. And: adjust to taste.

I just replaced my L-Pads with new 16 ohm ones, from Parts Express, they are big, very nice quality, except cheap plastic faceplate. They have a short shaft, not long enough for a thick back panel. I was able to retain my original recessed bronze cups.

https://www.parts-express.com/L-Pad-100W-Mono-3-8-Shaft-16-Ohm-260-261

The Model Six has a unique 5 position resistor network, see the frequency graph with the 5 curves

https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/E-V%20Six%20EDS.pdf

The woofers are the Massive Alnico15WK. They have a great midrange clarity as well as the base they are meant for. Hence I've always felt it sounded better when I have the woofers positioned to face the front of the speaker (installed on the front baffle).
These are true gems of a speaker system and I really hope they find a great well deserved home. Super efficient at around 104db. 

Wish I could take them to Japan with me. Probably worth 3X as much there since I have seen Klipschorns sell for upwards of 15K and o-boy do they love American Speakers and Amps/Iron from the Golden Age of 50's and early 60's. 
 Some of their Old Pioneer speaker/horns were OK, but the Japanese never really could get their speakers right, not at least until later on when Yamaha and Diatone started. Even then, they have an acquired sound that is not everyone's cup o tea.  I did love the Yamaha NS-1000X with the carbon woofers and Beryllium Mids/Tweeters but I always find myself going back to horns (of coarse as long as they are smooth and not in your face honky, hence these EV's).
 My current main speakers are Altec Onken 360's which were made to order with special crossovers and emilar horns as well as wood horns  and fine tuned once all put together. Not sure what I will do with them when I have to move. Want to take them but shipping will kill my wallet. If I sell these Duchess IV, that should pay for shipping the Onkens there, lol.
  Now some of their old Sansui and Luxman Tube amps were definitely a competition for the American and British amps of the same era, IMO, they had good Iron as well. 

here's the data sheet for our woofers. they are massive, however they weight 'only' 37 lbs. The first time I moved them (they were down firing), they wouldn't budge. I put a small mirror on a stick, looked for more bolts, nope, only the 4 I loosened. I just couldn't imagine they were that heavy, up they came.

https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/15W,%2015BW,%2015WK,%2015BWK%20EDS.pdf

the only difference between my 15W and your 15WK is the DC resistance. They used 10 of yours in Klipsch, and their Centurion and Georgian.

Dear Elliott, I feel misunderstood. In your OP, you seemed to be asking for input on whether you should purchase said Electrovoice speakers. I responded by detailing all the possible problems you might encounter, and my response was tempered by your previous statements and questions, indicating you are not that technically oriented. Of course, to an experienced speaker restorer, the Electrovoices would be much less of a potential challenge. And there is the possibility that these particular samples are just fine. Now that we have heard from the seller, that seems a real possibility. The eBay ad indicates the speakers were sold, so perhaps you are the lucky new owner. If so, good for you.


But please don’t accuse me of being shy about using vintage equipment, let alone anti-vintage. My ca 1980 Beveridge speakers and their dedicated direct-drive amplifiers are far more finicky and problematic than any pair of conventional electromagnetic speakers could ever be. Yet I persist in trying to keep them functional, because the sound is so superb. The persisting problem of the one amplifier oscillating is way above my head as a DIY guy, so if I solve it, that will be by luck. The Beveridge system is a "second" system in my house. I once drove it from an original Quicksilver full function preamplifier, ca 1985, although now I use a Manley Steelhead. Both turntables in that system are "vintage", a Lenco and a Victor TT101. I’ve upgraded the Lenco considerably, and the TT101 took 3 years after purchase to make it work properly (thanks only to JP Jones). The tonearms and cartridges are also vintage items. The Bevs require a supplementary woofer below 100Hz; I use a pair of Transmission Line woofer cabinets that I built in 1970, using KEF B139 woofers, also vintage. The woofer amplifier is a 1990s Threshold. The low pass crossover to the woofers is a Dahlquist DQLP, probably from the late 1970s. My point was that if you are going to mess with old equipment, you have to be prepared to solve problems. You know that as well as I do. The rewards for doing so can be great.


Case in point, as Dave Slagle (Intactaudio) pointed out, the components you replaced with a 16-ohm L-pad were not components of an L-pad to begin with. I feel partially responsible for first calling it an L-pad, but that was before I saw the schematic in the brochure you published here. How did the swap turn out?

lewm,

I'm sorry I have besmirched you.

I never really intended to purchase, just passing the awareness of them along, kind of fit the other L-Pad discussion.

I would like to hear them for sure. A pair of 18" alnico monsters, I wanted to buy them for my son, I would have had new enclosures made for him, but he said no.

I had no idea you are a Vintage Nut! OMG, I take risks, but you getting/keeping all those items is way beyond what I would contemplate. Vintage Kudos to you.

Dedication way beyond my typical inheritance/luck, and I am limited to fundamental repairs i.e. new cones, a burnt resistor, or pay someone else. I have successfully repaired nearly a dozen Teac R2R, but all cleaning, new belts, mechanical alignments, speed adjustments, nothing electrical.

Yes, thanks for helping me understand the difference between Pots and L-Pads. I successfully returned the pots (they were beautifully made), and got 16 ohm L-Pads. I searched, found some by others, however they looked like they were using/reselling the Parts Express ones, so I ordered direct from Parts Express. If lousy, simply return them. Happily they are very nice large diameter ceramic bodies, smooth and firm movement/contact inside.

Cheap plastic face plate and knob, and short shaft, too short for my 3/4" thick back panels. I had my existing recessed bronze cups which just solved the problem.

The original bronze press on knobs, and the supplied plastic ones were too large a diameter to fit when pressed deeper into the tapered recessed cup. So off to Greenbrook Electronic's disorganized wall of vintage knobs. Finally chose some small diameter ones, with too small a hole for the shaft. Drilled larger diameter hole all the way thru, now I can see the slot in the end of the shaft to verify the knob is on straight, I like that.

These speakers, all electro-voice with electro-voice 3-way crossover, like most vintage Electro-voice speaker models, were designed to have L-Pads in center attenuation position as normal (which is why they sounded so awful without them). Progressively more or less attenuation for live or dead rooms.

That Model Six had fixed resistors like you prefer to L-Pads, extending the resistor method to 5 selectable settings and 5 specific frequency graphs for each setting. That would make it easy to precisely match L to R. My Progressive L-Pads require a long and careful period of adjustment/listening/repeat to get them right. The McIntosh Mode Switch is indispensable for that process.

I'm confused, but if you're happy, I'm happy.

I'm bewildered why you are confused, happily we are both happy.

Because I asked how it worked out when you inserted your new Lpad where there was previously no Lpad but instead a complex 5-way circuit ( based on my memory of the schematic) to affect treble balance. I certainly don’t “prefer” one or the other, and it’s not simply a matter of semantics. I merely pointed out what’s in the schematic you posted. On p3 of your brochure. You didn’t address my question, which is fine, but that leaves me still wondering how it sounds with your new Lpad vs the original circuit. So maybe “curious” is a better word than “confused”.

You have lost track, my fault because I have mixed up three discussions:

1. L-Pads for my existing 3-way speakers, all electro-voice drivers, 1958.

They, like most vintage Electro-voice speakers  originally had L-Pads. 16 ohm drivers used AT37 L-Pads. 3-way systems had two: Brilliance for the Tweeter; Presence for the Mids. Woofers no adjustments.

Middle attenuation position was 'normal', less attenuation for dull rooms, more attenuation for live rooms. Adjust for taste. 

In the L-Pad discussion, not knowing that these were instrumental to the speaker systems, many, typically signal purists, said remove the L-Pads, they are a terrible idea.

You suggested I measure ___, and replace the L-Pad with a specific resistor, 'better' than L-Pads. That would be specific, no variation over time as my ability to hear highs diminishes, or for different spaces.

I never did that. I removed the L-Pads, they were awful screechy, I bought POTS, you helped me understand L-Pads maintaining resistance shown to the crossover. I returned the POTS, got and installed (replaced) new 16 ohm L-Pads. Sound: back to Nirvana. 


2. This discussion, Electro-voice Duchess IV.

They popped up on an an eBay search. I just posted it for others and fun, it is also a 3-way, it also has a pair of AT37 L-Pads, Brilliance and Presence. If near me, I would run over to hear them. Others near enough could listen, perhaps purchase. It did lead me to do research and find that nearly all Vintage Electro-voice speakers had AT-37 L-pads.

3. Electro-Voice E-V SIX. (4 way)

https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/E-V%20Six%20EDS.pdf

This popped up when researching the EV designs, most using L-Pads 

The 4-way SIX has a unique 5 step resistor network, the only EV system I came across with resistors. That was interesting, and related to your preference to resistors. Because it was 5 selectable settings, they published 5 frequency graphs, also very unique.

And 18" woofers, 1/2" thick foam!

And Near Me!

Those tempted me quite a bit, I would build new custom enclosures. But when I cooled down, not for me. Then I realized, they would fit perfectly in my son's room, as is, then move the drivers to new enclosures I would have built for him. He said no.

Go hear them anyway?  Chain me to the wall.

It's all perfectly clear to me, now.

lowered the price to $2000 OBO for the Electrovoice Duchess IV, Heck I might even deliver them for a reasonable fee since I'm off work for a while. Someone please buy them before I part them out, lol.