Thank you for pointing this out. Right now I'm waiting for final membership verification from MLO and will read his post later on when I'm back home. Based on what I've read, the Mark Levinson amps are certainly very capable and I assume that his observations are valid and would transfer to my speakers. However, the models mentioned are a little out of my financial comfort zone right now especially since I just bought the new speakers and have no way of auditioning these amps in my home first. |
A super tweeter is one that operates at about 10KHz and above. A regular tweeter might only roll in at about 2KHz or so. |
"Now that I'm using the equalizer (Behringer DEQ2496), between automatic room balancing and frequency adjustment to compensate for age related hearing loss, I'm able to get back much of what I've lost. If I had discovered the EQ approach years ago I could have saved significant time and money in this quest. I tried, as I said previously, to use the EQ as a sort of loudness control for low volume listening but it hasn't really worked that well so far. That being the case, I still want to try the autoformer approach and will as soon as my checkbook recovers from purchase the new speakers.
Broadstone (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
I was just reading through your comments again and have a question. You say that the EQ helps but its not a complete fix. What are you lacking? What is it that needs to be corrected to get the sound you need?
Also, I have something for you to try, if you haven't already done so. I'm sure you recall some of the posts where people feel that there's usually a sweet spot to where an amp will sound its best. For the most part, I would agree. You can control the overall gain with your EQ, in addition to the individual EQ bands. If you raise and lower the overall gain with the EQ, you can vary how hard your amp is working, while keeping the SAME volume level. With some experimenting, you should be able to identify your amps sweet spot. |
I've become a strong believer in the part that all frequencies play in such important factors as timbre, even, or maybe especially, those beyond our sensory capabilities. As was discussed earlier, the base frequencey of most any instrument or voice falls within even my upper audible range of about 8-9000Hz. Their associated and critical upper harmonics, though, will far exceed these values.
For this reason I'm convinced that their enhancement can be valuable to realism without, as far as I can see, much potential downside. I will be trying it then but I still need some guidance on their use. First, I've read that a x-over is necessary which I can understand if one decides to use ribbons for example. If one were to use piezoelectrics, though, they are LF limiting by their nature. I'm not sure they are the best choice though.
Anyway, my concern remains re the use of a crossover; I don't want the transducer panel robbed of any portion of the delivered upper frequencies so a crossover doesn't work in my way of thinking. As I also remarked on before, I see the piezo as a capacitor which if installed across speaker terminals, would tend to do somewhat the same thing. What I need to know, then, is it ok to simply attach the "super tweeter" w/o additional circuitry across the speaker terminals. |
ZD, I missed your last post before I wrote mine. Your comment regarding the use of the EQ to unburden the amp is the kind of creative thinking that most of us would not have envisioned. No, then, I haven't tried that approach.
You asked what I was still lacking and I don't have a good answer except that it just sounds better at moderate volumes. Because that has probably to do with the very nature of how systems work or how sound is perceived, I might simply be expecting too much.
What I'll do at this point is put the EQ and power amp back in the system and see if I can do something with your suggestion on finding and operating within the "sweet spot".
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Piezo tweeters usually don't need a crossover- you can just hook them up. Check with the manufacturer to be sure.
You may need some kind of level control to tame its output. |
I understand Ultra Tweeters are still available. They produce only very high frequencies, just over 1 GHz. I used to have the Ultras in my system and even had the Deluxe Ultras in the same system. |
This has been very interesting to read. |
Hi Atmashphere, Electrostats that are not direct driven already have a transformer to step up the voltage built in. Would it not be better to replace the transformer in the speaker with one that raises the impedance, than to add a set of Zero's? |
"04-09-15: Broadstone
I've become a strong believer in the part that all frequencies play in such important factors as timbre, even, or maybe especially, those beyond our sensory capabilities. As was discussed earlier, the base frequencey of most any instrument or voice falls within even my upper audible range of about 8-9000Hz. Their associated and critical upper harmonics, though, will far exceed these values. "
I'm not sure if they still make it, but Whest came out with a component to do exactly what you are talking about. It goes in between a CD player and the preamp. CD stops at 20k, and this component tries to reconstruct the high frequency waveforms above and beyond what you can hear. Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to hear it for myself, so I can't say if it works or not. But It does seem like a good idea. |
Atmasphere, yes, the fact that piezos don't need a crossover as well as the fact that I've used them with some success many years ago is what makes me comfortable with their use. I still have this nagging question, though, regarding their being seen by the signal as a parallel installed capacitor. If that's a valid observation and the HF signal to the transducer is reduced by that capacitance, I suppose the piezo would be producing those frequencies at and above those that were lost through its addition. I also agree that some attenuation might be needed; when I used them before, they were a bit conspicuous.
Geoffkait, I've been reading about the Golden Ear Ultra (I assume this is what you're referring to) and, so far am leaning in that direction. I've already begun looking for one.
ZD, thanks for the "whest" idea but I'm going to stick to end of the stream experiments for now. Going back to your discussion regarding use of the EQ to force the amp to work more within its sweet spot, I haven't tried that yet but I have a related question. To get an idea of how this concept might work, would introducing resistance in the speaker cable achieve the same thing? It seems that, in either case, one is forcing the amp to see an increased load. |
Geoffkait, I meant to say "Golden Sound". I've done more reading though, and it seems that they are capable of reproducing only extreme high frequencies (and I doubt gigahertz claim), ignoring those important HF harmonics closer to the upper audible limits. This is only my gut assumption and I could be way off base but I'd be more comfortable with something like the Townshend which starts at 15k Hz and goes up from there; its price, though, is a little hard to take. I'm still studying the subject but I also wonder what the HF limits of the rest of the system are. Are any of my components capable of producing or passing through a 40KHz signal. As an experiment I may buy a pair of piezos as a cheap starting point before I invest in one of the way more expensive ones. |
Geoffkait, I meant to say "Golden Sound". I've done more reading though, and it seems that they are capable of reproducing only extreme high frequencies (and I doubt gigahertz claim), ignoring those important HF harmonics closer to the upper audible limits. This is only my gut assumption and I could be way off base but I'd be more comfortable with something like the Townshend which starts at 15k Hz and goes up from there; its price, though, is a little hard to take. I'm still studying the subject but I also wonder what the HF limits of the rest of the system are. Are any of my components capable of producing or passing through a 40KHz signal. As an experiment I may buy a pair of piezos as a cheap starting point before I invest in one of the way more expensive ones. |
The Ultras of course work quantum mechanically. Yes, I know you were afraid I was going to say that. Hence the over MHz fequency. The Ultras condition the air molecules and make the acoustic waves propagate more efficiently through the air, like a traffic cop in the city who makes the traffic run more smoothly and efficiently. In other words, even if someone already has super tweeters in his system, Townshends or whatever, the Ultras will improve that system, too. |
Ooops a daisy, I meant the over GHz frequency. |
"ZD, thanks for the "whest" idea but I'm going to stick to end of the stream experiments for now."
My intent when I posted the info on the Whest was just to lend some creditability to the idea that having the audio signal intact above what we can actually hear is something that's probably worth while. I don't think you could get one, even if you wanted it. I'm pretty sure they're not made any more, and I don't think I've ever seen a used one come up for sale. |
Geoffkait, I do have some background in and understanding of quantum physics but never in any way associated with sound fortification so this explanation is interesting and I'll be giving it some thought....as if I needed something else to tax my aging brain. Anyway, I had pretty much written the Ultras off but I'll go back and rethink them, and others, from a potentially new point of view.
ZD, I understand your point and get the idea of squeezing out as much HF as your system is capable of. It also reminds me of another issue; doesn't using vinyl as one's source acheive some of that over CD's to begin with? I'm not ready to convert,..just sayin'. |
Just to add that I'm not sure if the SteinMusic Harmonizer works similarly in principle to the Ultras but it might. The Harmonizer - at least according to what I've read - operates by "energizing" the air molecules in the room so that when the acoustic waves propagate across the room via the air molecules they move more efficiently because the air molecules got a jump start. Instead of just sitting there they had already started to move. Kind of like an Olympic runner getting a jump start on the field by beating the gun. |
I just found this thread, and can certainly relate. I'm "only" 64 (!), but from playing drumset in bands since I was 14 and attending who knows how many live shows, I now have mild tinnitus and high-frequency hearing loss. I also am a long-time electrostatic (original Quads) owner/listener. I realize you highly value the equalizer in your particular system, but if I was desiring higher low-level resolution/transparency out of a system, it would be high on my list of suspects. The opamps in that Behringer are quite smeared sounding devices, unfortunately. The second thing I would consider is a really good tube pre-amp. It is not only solid state power amps that become veiled at low-level listening, but many ss pre-amps (and sources too) are inferior to tubes at amplifying those tiny microvolt signals. But more than those two considerations, I must join those in suggesting that for lower-volume resolution and dynamics, high-efficiency speakers are definitely the way to go. They also play well with tubes! |
Hi Atmashphere, Electrostats that are not direct driven already have a transformer to step up the voltage built in. Would it not be better to replace the transformer in the speaker with one that raises the impedance, than to add a set of Zero's? Certainly- if it can be done. Broadstone, just in case- air molecules cannot be 'charged' at GHz frequencies... actually that sounds kind of dangerous, like being in a microwave oven. |
Nobody is suggesting that air molecules are charged at very high frequencies. They do however resonate when immersed in a very high frequency field of the correct frequency. That's how the molecules get jump started, I.e., moving. You can charge the air as it were using ionizers such as the one I sell, but many others, too, you know, like negative ion room purifiers. |
Roger Modjeski of Music Reference/RAM Labs is making an ESL speaker that is direct-driven, but it's not cheap. He is also a proponent of low-power amps/high-sensitivity loudspeakers. |
Geoffkait, the concept that you're discussing and how this is mechanically acheived is beyond my ability to discuss in any intelligent way. The explanation reminds me of how one lightning bolt prepares an ionized low resistance pathway for the next discharge or, more simplistically, providing lower air resistance to both cars in a drafting scenario. I thank you for this input which I in no way dispute, but I'd have to go back to school on this one.
Bdp, thank you but the issue I describe occurred well before incorporation of the EQ so, even though it's contribution to potential sound degradation described by you and others are valid points, I don't think the equalizer is the culprit in this case. As a matter of fact, based on testing discussed here, the power amp and EQ are temporally out of the system as I write this. As far as the Behringer and it's specific potential shortcomings goes, I tried 2 other brands before settling on the DEQ2496. Anyway, because I'm very happy with my current setup in all respects except for this low volume issue and my feeling is that it finds its primary cause in my personal hearing deficiency, I'm staying with my existing components for now. The bottom line in defense of the EQ, I suppose, is my unequal hearing problems which have no other acceptable solutions. |
Perhaps your observation is not true of all electrostatic speakers, certainly not mine. IMO, In a well set up system, Sound Lab electrostatic speakers retain their ability to present an exceptionally full bodied and rich presentation with full resolution at all volume levels. And, my ears are 71 years old! |
Actually Roger is a proponent of understanding power requirements as it relates to driving speakers and achievinng adequate listening levels, regardless of the sensitivity of the speaker. I can recall discussing with him a customer of his that uses his low sensitivity ESLs with his 5 watt EM-7 amp and getting adequate volume from them. I learned a lot from that conversation.
You can currently buy a direct drive amp from Roger for use with Acoustat speakers sans their transformers. The amp puts out some serious voltage. For those in the Bay Area Roger has started an electronics school in the Berkeley area. Check it out if you are interested in learning more about the science of this hobby rather than..... |
Twb, you're right; I haven't heard them all and, likely, never will. My post was probably mistitled if it leads readers to think that I mean to indict electrostats, in general, as deficient in low volume resolution...I dont. It was not a statement but was worded in a way meant to inspire discussion. I don't know how much of the thread you read but the discussion centered around Martin Logan products and their specific characteristics because those are what I've owned for over 35 years. To reiterate, these consisted of Prodigy, SL3, CLS2, Odyssey and, now, the Ethos.
One of the things that I've more than alluded to here is the role that age related hearing has in this issue. I suspect that it's a relatively significant one in my case and just because our ages are close, does not mean that our hearing losses are of the same type or degree. For consideration also is that we don't necessarilly all have the same expectations of our equipment or what we like to hear.
Cleo, thanks, but I'm already familiar with those discussions so maybe I'll..... |
OK, after all of this discussion and well considered advice I've decided on at least an interim resolution. As I've alluded to in this and other posts, I'm using my EQ to accommodate several perceived deficiencies which have mostly to do with personal hearing issues. Because this particular EQ (Behringer DEQ2496) provides storage slots for many different equalization programs it's possible to design customized listening for specific scenarios. In my case, for low level listening I've made adjustments that mimmick the "loudness" controls typically found on older amplifiers which brings back what I was missing at these lower volumes.
For listening at "normal" levels the only adjustment in place is that created using the automatic room equalization capability which affects only those frequencies below 500Hz. Room EQ settings are not included in the low volume settings as lowering those frequencies would be inconsistent with the "loudness" settings goal.
The bottom line is that because I'm very happy with the quality of sound from my system in almost every way, for those circumstances requiring less obtrusive volumes, my best approach may be to forget using my primary setup and go to my second system.
On a related note, I'll reiterate the finding that, based on information provided in this thread, substituting a lower powered amp (Peachtree Audio Nova) for the 220W amp actually DID reduce low volume distortion resulting in improved resolution. I put the power amp back in the system, though, because it's performance is better from an overall standpoint. |
