TBG, as all threads are linear lists, it should make no difference monitoring a short or a long one. Only the last 50 postings max are displayed by default. To see the last few postings of a thread all is needed is to press ctrl-end to go to the bottom of the page, then up-arrow a dozen times. I am totally blind and it takes me no more than 3.5 seconds to find the last posting on any thread. I bet it will take you as a sightling a lot less than that! Happy reading. |
It was in my own system, but the UX-1 had to travel to get here and had only been on an hour.
I think your estimate that most often the better unit will stand forward regardless of the system 8 times in 10 is wildly optimistic, unless we are limiting ourselves to the most revealing systems. Yes, I know everyone thinks his or her system is quite revealing, but we know better.
I am not saying that the UX-1 is a bad unit by any means. I first heard it in the lesser Avantgarde suite on classic Duos. This room sounded far superior to the main room with a lesser player.
The thread on the DV50 is too long to monitor. |
TBG,
Both 711 and I came to the conclusion that although the Exemplar 3910 was a very good player (great detail, openeness, accuracy, etc) it was not the most musical of the players included in the shoot-out. 711 feels that the APL 3910 (even before the new clock)was the most musical unit. In my opinion the Dan Wright modded Sony (9000ES) was the most musical and best player. After now listening to the modded Sony in two other systems since that shoot-out I'm even more convinced that it is the better unit.
The players in the shoot-out were Alex's APL 1000, DV 50,
Modwright Sony 9000ES, APL 3910 and Exemplar 3910. I currently have the Esoteric UX1 in my posssession for a home demo and hope to face it off this week (with 711 and others from our thread present) against the APL 1000, 2 modded Sony's and the APL 3910. 711 sold his Exemplar.
Regardless of system matching, one can still determine via shoot-outs which player is the better unit. I agree the best unit may not "ALWAYS" sound the best in a particular system due to system synergy and matching issues, but it should 8 out of 10 times if its clearly superior.
UHH, I just have one question for you, TBG. Exactly when and where was it that you compared the Exemplar 3910 to the Esoteric UX1? On what system? And exactly how did you conclude that the Exemplar 3910 was superior to the UX1? Or did you make the "assumption" that it was better than the UX1 since its better than the DV 50 (which I agree it is)?
See, the reasons we do these shoot-outs is because people make statements and then can not back them up with any proof (via written results or an open listening forum with many attendees)that one unit clearly outperformed another.
Everything that we've auditoned so far has been documented in my thread.
Just so you know, my initial listening tests (1 day only) of the UX1 (vs. my clear recollection of the Exemplar sound)leads me to believe that they are very close and share more similarities than differences. If in fact the exemplar is better it is only by the very smallest of margins. And in SACD I can already tell you the Esoteric is better..hands down. Which leads me to believe that when we bring in the X01 it will be the best of them all but not necessarily the most muscial due to a lack of a tube output stage.
Keep tuned to our thread. I won't have time to comment anymore on this thread but I did want to make at least one rebuttal.
AVGURU |
TBG, the Exemplar 2900 was in the contest. But, apparently unanimously, it came in behind the APL, and at least for those who thought the ModWright 999ES to be best, it came in third place. You are correct in stating that any shootout results should be considered with a grain of salt. On the other hand, the only thing worse than having such shootouts is not having one at all. Let us remember that the Chicago gang is primarely busy having fun. As an added bonus, they are sharing their fun with us. It is up to you/us/everyone-else to read through and extract those little nuggets of priceless information that may be useful to us. Besides, isn't it fun just reading these threads? Guido |
Guidocorona, the Exemplar/Denon 3910 is by John Tucker and I know Steve has it also. It is curious thus that it was not included. Might it be better and not used for fear that it would be judged best?
I still question, however, whether there is any transferable benefit to a shootout. I this I concur with Lazarus. But I also realize that regretably most of us lack the opportunity to hear side by side the many unit that might interest us. |
AVGURU - i don't own a dv-50.
not anymore, anyway. my purpose wasn't so much to defend the dv-50 as it was to attempt tp get people to use their own ears and not believe the hype until you've heard for yourself.
but, i do love the dv-50 regardless. |
TBG, it is my understanding that APL 3910 was in fact included in the shootouts. That would have been 711smilin's unit. Though, as I recall, at that time the unit did not include the masterclock that Alex just lately added to 711smilin's unit. So in my view, fresh rounds of shootouts among the latest APL 3910, Modwright Sony 999ES, and Teac UX-1 and X-01 are in order. Please note that the ModWright does not support a masterclock at this time. It will be interesting to determine if this feature makes a decisive difference. |
Since 711smilin has the Exemplar/Denon 3910 which much impressed him, was it included in the shootout? If not, I think you guys missed an opportunity to hear the best universal player.
I am mildly interested in shootouts, but think systems can greatly affect preferences. For example, an unduly bright system may sound better with a rolled off player. Better than a year ago, many of us heard a shootout at the VSAC show in Silverdale. The Exemplar 2900, Alex's Phillips SACD1000, Dan Wright's Sony, and Allen Wright's Sony 3000 with Level 4 mods were included. The room was terrible and there were too many humans in the room dampening all dynamics. One could draw no real conclusions for this shootout.
But Alex's unit is of some interest to me, although I already own an Exemplar/Denon 3910 which has only 150 hours on it. It is already clearly superior to the Exemplar/Denon 2900 which in my experience was clearly more open and dynamic than the Teac DV50 and the Teac Esoteric UX-1 without the atomic clock. |
Lazarus,
AVGURU here, the originator of the DV-50 thread. I love you, man! Some of your comments were right on. You speak your mind like I do. I like your boldness and conviction of your words. The DV 50 is a great, great universal player.....the best one on the the market today and only bested by the Esoteric UX1...the new $13,000 model which I now have in my home and soon hope to face off against 711's latest APL 3910 with the modded clock. I still own my DV 50 and love it. It should have never been referred to as a "Radio Shack". Knowing 711 as I do, he is excitable and has apologized. Please accept it.
Most of the comparisons done on my thread (where other units have bested the DV 50) were primarily in redbook. I have not compared these other units to the DV 50 in DVD-A, DVD-Video, multi-channel SACD, etc. Only a limited amount of time was spent comparing 2 channel SACD playback and those results are not yet conclusive. So in my opinion no one can claim that these modded units are better than the DVD-50 until a full shootout in all formats is conducted.
There is no other universal player on the market today (made by a major manufacturer...i.e Pioneer, Denon, Bel Canto, McCormack, Krell, etc) that's better than the DV 50. In that arena the DV 50 still reigns. However, if the these modded units can duplicate their redbook performance in the other aforementioned formats they will be superior to the DV 50. However, that is a BIG IF. Some of these modded units lose their multi-channel or DVD-Video capability after being modded. Most don't allow for balanced connections. All of this has to be taken into consideration when determining what's the best.
Lazarus, what I have come to find out is that the major players (Esoteric, Krell, etc) only spend 1/5th to 1/6th of retail on actual mfg costs and overhead. The DV 50 retails for $5,500 and Esoteric's total investment (parts, labor, marketing, advertising, etc) is less than $1,000. That's a shocker but its true...trust me. A high end dac is only $20. A power supply (transformer)about $30. The list goes on and on. Capacitors, caps, wiring are even less. When you consider the retail and distributor mark-ups (which I know but won't reveal) the manufacturers mark-up is at least 300% and probably as high as 500%.
With the modders, they can pick the best parts available on the market (its actually in their best interest to do so as they are in intense competition with other modders and there is a much smaller pool of customers willing to buy modded units). Additionally, they have nowhere near the overhead of the major mfg's so most of their mark-up is
on the labor side.
So you can buy a mid-fi unit that's outfitted with the best parts available and modded to the max (just how you like it)for around $3,000-$4,000 and probably less if you know how to negiotiate. Actually, these are not even mod's..they're total redesigns. So its really not a Denon or Pioneer or Sony..its a new unit only using the shell.
As you can see, the potential exists to get much more value for your money and a better product when buying from the better redesigners. And that's why these units have the potential to really outperform the major market product. The major mfg's are making a product with an eye on costs and profit first. Performance criteria is a distant 2nd, 3rd or fourth consideration. This is not true with all mfg's but with many of them.
Since all of these mfg's follow the same mark-ups and use the same distributers and buy parts from the same companies (Burr Brown, Crystal, Motorola to name a few) the quality they can provide at a given price point really doesn't vary much from mfg to mfg.
Esoteric hit the jackpot with the DV 50 because they were the first ones to correctly determine that interest in an audiophile level universal player was strong enough that consumers were willing to pay a much higher price than what other mfg's thought the market would bear for a top of the line universal. Most of the universals before the DV 50 were around $2,000-$3,000. The extra $2,500 Esoteric charged allowed them to make a better product without compromising (and probably even increasing) their almighty profit targets.
And unfortunately, the only way Esoteric can substantially improve upon the performance of the DV 50 (and again maintain if not increase their profit margins) is to now charge $13,000 for the UX1 and X01. They're probably targeting a 500% profit margin on these units rationalizing that even if they reach only 30-40% of the volume they had on the DV 50 they'll still make out like fat cats.
I'm willing to bet the modders can produce units that exceed the performance of the UX1 and X01 for about $5,000-$6,000. I may even find in my continued shoot-out that the APL or Modwright units already exceed the performance of these Esoteric units. And this is the part that makes me angry...that we as audiophiles have to pay so much money to appease a mfg's over-zealous and greedy profit margins when similar or better quality can be had for much less. To
add insult to injury, Esoteric's warranty is only 1 YEAR
whereas I'm sure all of these mod guys would be willing to back up their products over the life of the unit.
Don't get me wrong...audio is not any different than other industries (jewelry, automobiles, etc) that also have outrageous profit margins. So I don't want to come across as unfairly picking on this industry when there are others that are worse. But I take the same approach in any consumer good that I buy...know the mark-ups, determine what's a good value and buy accordingly. If it weren't for the fact that I know the profit margins and have developed relationships with dealers that allow me to get great deals I'd probably buy all my audio equipment from people like Dan Wright or Alex.
Lazarous, Enjoy your DV 50 and know there is no other universal mass produced universal that can better it. But also take your own advice and give a listen to some of these modded units. You might be surprised at what you hear!
Enjoy the music,
AVGURU
|
I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices. However, (I hope these are the units you refer to), a rare Teac player with a Teac external clock was playing at CES in Jan 2004. Driving Avantgarde horns with the Avantgarde Model 5 Preamp/Integrated. I listened to "Black Coffee" off the Greta Matassa SACD and was totally gobsmacked. Hopefully it will be there again this year. Regards, |
As an remote member of the aforementioned Chicago shootout gang, I feel most impressed by the degree of attention our little thread seems to have generated.
I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices.
As for our little thread being a testbed for sociological case studies, I am truly delighted Lazarus28 has found us worthy of such exalted academic attentions. Regretably sociology, being 80% untestable assumptions and 20% mental elucubrations ad-absurdum, does not qualify as a science.
It is fair to point out that SMILIN, AVGURU, JAYCTOY, yours humbly, and the rest of our little gang are not pretending to be questing for that almost biblical or alchemical TRUE TRUTH [version 4.1), nor that ideological clap-trappery epitomized by Zdanovian Socialist Realism--but rather for that ineffable sound which will uniquely delight us in so many differing ways. There are some of us who have found the most temporary solace in the APL mods, others in the DanWright ones. Others are still holding out, and hoping secretly that their true love (X-01) will still Reign Supreme--mayhaps we should aptly rename ourselves the 'Iron Audiofools" and invite Chairman Kaga to preside over our esoteric circle!
As for myself, I am yet another foolish digital audio grayhound, hopelessly chasing the electronic rabbit running ever faster along the digital rail. . . Arf, Arf, Arf!!!
Ponderously yours,
Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky |
|
Kevin, that Shootout took at least 6 hours, from the
dealer going to 711 house, You bet we enjoy every minute.
Avguru and 711 are both bold and expressing all their
impression on all the cdp we played.This are the right
audiophile to be in the shootout,they will tell you
infront of your face.We will have onother shootout
on Dec 19.Thanks wish us all the luck. |
Kevin, thanks for the kind words, I am having fun, and I am glad it shows. BTW I do home purchases too. Wink Wink |
I would like to personaly thank 711smilin and all the guys on the shootout for IMHO is truly one of the most interesting threads i've ever read day in and out!Not only have i found the info on all the different equipment refreshing,I really like the way a bunch of guys have come together with some common ground and truly seem to be having fun doing it!! Thank you!Oh by the way If i need to re- mortgage my home i'm calling 711smilin,SEEMS TO ME TO BE A CLASS ACT! Kevin |
Kana813, dont make your final judgement yet on modified,
players,Iam sure the Meitner are good, I have not heard
them,on the 19th of Dec, we will have big shootout here
in the Chicago suburb,wait for the result,including these
beloved Meitner, thru the courtesy of David Shapiro who
owns Meitner, and Brian from essentialaudio is hosting it.
The CDP you are recommending is never heard.If you live
close, you are more than welcome to come to my place,and
we will A/B them.So Agoners will become inform on what
players they have to buy. |
Doesn't Meridian make an all digital system, including active loudspeakers. I think those speakers take a digital input. Check it out. That might be King. |
Kana813, I would love to hear the Talk Electronics Thunder 3.1, and the Esoteric P-O/G-O combo. I do have an open mind, and am on the search. Where can I hear these in or around the Chicago area? If either are better on redbook, I would buy, 1 or both. I have never stated I have heard everything. I have not. I do enjoy SACD, too bad you do not. I also enjoy redbook now, more than ever before. I hope you are happy with what you own. I am. But, I will always have an open mind, and listen. Maybe you should try for yourself.
Thanks for the suggestions, If you could help direct me, I appreciate it. |
711smilin- we're both entitled to opinions.
Have you heard the Talk Electronics Thunder 3.1b? Or how about a speaker system driven by a power dac with a digital signal from a Esoteric P-O/G-O combo?
I have no need for a universal player, much less pay someone thousands of dollars to mod a Denon.
Enjoy your SACDs. |
Kana813, IMHO both the APL, and the Exemplar, exceed any mass produced player I have heard, in redbook. I encourage you to listen for yourself, before making statements like you have. I invite you for a listen. The b onus here is the other formats being wondeful in addition. |
If "since CD is my priority," take a look at the Talk Electronics Thunder 3.1b, it's in your price range.
IMO, unless you're going to go the Meitner route, forget about SACD and the modified universal player of the week. |
Meta, I heard you're in the Bay Area. Would you care to share a listening experience whenever you get the APL back? Thanks. |
I wouldn't buy anything before trying the new Marantz SA-11 two channel SACD. Although I haven't heard it yet, the SA-14 is fabulous and hopefully the ll is even better.
Richard |
Lazarus28, Thank you for your viewpoint, I hope you read the WHOLE thread where I in fact Apoligized if I seemed overzealous. I am on a mission, and a search for the digital source that I feel is the best, to me. I believe what I am hearing right now in my system, with my ears, is in fact just that. I am really attempting to describe accurately, my findings. Not to promote, for I have no direct relationship with any modder, or manufacturer. In fact, I have the balls to do exactly what you say, That is I buy, try, compare, sell, or return. I, in fact am still searching for the right source. Only, now it is for my HT. I will still lend my unit for shootouts, comparisons, and fun. Hey, thats just me. I own a mortgage company, and do not need to sell audio for a living, nor do I. That being said, I do not have any motive except to report in an honest way, what I hear. You are right that not everyone is going to like the same thing. IMHO, most do, most meaning more than 50%. That makes a majority, and thats why shootouts are fun, and educational.
I am glad you have the Meitner gear, and are happy. Had I not run accross Alex, and APL I might have the Meitneer too. In fact I look forward to comparing, and guess what, If I like the meitner better, in my system, I will buy it. I have stated I have a budget of 20k for this, and I think the meitner falls in there. I hope one day soon you get to listen to the APL, and I get to compare, directly with the meitner. Hopefully my player will be at the shootout at audioesentials next weekend, (I will be on a cruise with my wife and daughter)I am just hoping those who
do attend, get the same type of enjoyment, and pleasure as me. My purpose here is not to promote a certain product, it is to bring great products to peoples attention. Why? Cause it makes me happy, and helps those around me on the same search as myself. A lot of people cannot take the time I am putting forth, and/or do not have the resources I have to play this game. Yes, to me, this is fun, I am on a journey to find my audio nirvana. Sounds to me that you are too. We seem to be on an analagous journey seperate, but together. Please tell me IYHO, the difference between the Meitner, and the DV-50. I am real interested to see how you would put it.
I also have owned the DV-50, or I never could have said what I said. Yes, my initial posting on the thread were overly zealous, and incorrectly phrased. I was so exited with my APL, and Exemplar, and acted foolish in my writings. I forgot that the written word, is a record. I did apologize for that. I must tell you I feel really proud about my journey, and my writings, today. I have rerceived much email, of appreciation from many audiogon members, requesting me to keep up the great work. I am still having fun here, I hope I am not offending you in any way, shape, or form. As I said before, I intend to keep on my search, until I stop having fun with it. Please try not to make this journey a drag. I invite you to vistit if you are ever in the Chicago area.
Thanks again for the comments, and yes I am a hairy guy, sort of like a gorilla, so maybe I am the Alpha male. Wink wink |
i held my tongue in that supposed "shootout" thread, but i'm gonna chime in here.
i've no doubt that the APL player is a nice player. i'm sure it is.
but i've owned many a cd player in my day and 711smilin's assertion that the esoteric dv-50 is 'one-dimensional,' and 'sounds like radio shack,' and 'is bettered in every way' by the modded denons is a load of horse crap. even a previous poster in this thread has his facts wrong regarding the esoteric transport: there IS NO CLAIM to a VDRS clamp-mechanism in the dv-50. it is a pioneer transport! so? the APL uses a denon transport! what's your point? and no, the VDRS is *NOT* in any way a glossed-over OEM - it is designed and built in-house, and is one of the finest transports built.
again, no disrespect to alex of APL because i'm sure he truly does great work - but beware of the ludicrous superlatives and silly claims that one player "trounces" another or that because the esoteric dv-50 uses a pioneer transport that it's "a home theater unit with no business i a high-end system." this simply is not the case.
it's amazing the stigmas we have as audiophiles. the sacred cows we keep - cd's can't sound good; if it doesn't just play cd's it can't be any good; pcm leaves an audible fingerprint in every case; oem transports are cheap; if it plays dvd's also then it's "home theater" equipment. (God Forbid!)
that is just plain crap. i've owned the dv-50 along with several other highly ranked cd players and TO MY EARS it is a fantastic unit for the cost. period. on redbook, sacd, dvd-audio it is fantastic. i wouldn't trade my emmlabs meitner gear for the world, but i did trade my resolution audio opus 21 for it. did it handle cd as well as the resolution audio? i don't think so - not to my ears, anyway. did the resolution audio "trounce it?" or "destroy it," or "make it sound one-dimensional?" no, it didn't. i decided it was a fair sacrifice for universal playback. this this mean i'm right? no, it means i'm right for me. when i bought my meitner gear, did i buy it because somebody i trusted told me it sounded good? honestly, yes i did. but if i hadn't liked the sound, i'd have sold it right back. that's part of the fun - sometimes you can buy used stuff blindly and then sell it for the same price. it's fun and that way you don't have to rely on other's opinions - and certainly not let their opinions influence your own.
but sadly, that's not enough for some. no, some people in this hobby have agendas. i firmly believe that some of the loons who say that "this product destroys, demolishes, kills that one" are doing no more than trying to validate themselves, their "golden ears" and/or their purchases. yes, there are products out there that sound more real than others, but in the world of high-end cd players - it really comes down to personal preference. a krell will sound different than a linn. a naim different from a teac esoteric. meitner different from wadia. there's no need to try to convert anyone into believing that you are right, that your player is the best - enjoy the music, people! the day this hobby ceases to be fun is the day we should jump ship! let's just use some common sense - a disc player costing $5500 is not going to sound like radio shack! and if it did, it wouldn't sell! i don't care if it also plays dvds, it just wouldn't. you might not like the presentation of it, but *please.* there are so few absolutes in this hobby and when somebody is so insanely vocal in their vehemence in using them, that's when we need to step back and question why. i hate to sound so cynical, but if you read that whole thread with an open mind, you'll see what i mean.
that "shootout" thread IMHO is a microcosm of mob mentality. look at it from the beginning and follow the progression. it's a perfect model for a sociology textbook! at first, everybody jumps on the bandwagon saying "dv-50 is great, blah blah blah" (whether from their own experiences or because of the positive reviews, i cannot say) and then in comes one person, more vocal than the rest to challenge that notion. this one is so much more vocal than the others that he suddenly becomes the alpha male - the unquestionable audio guru, the one who first says that the emporer is wearing clothes - can't you see them? if not, you must be a fool. he convinces one person on the thread via a visit to his house of it and then all of a sudden, people start to doubt their own decisions and jump on his bandwagon - feeding his ego and validating themselves because they agree with the alpha male and his obviously "golden ears." i mean, nobody wants to be thought the fool, right? maybe they didn't like what they had heard after all? maybe somebody else knows more than they do about what sounds good to them.
nonsense. only you know what sounds good to you.
people, the emporer has no clothes. listen for yourself and make your own decisions. question when people overuse superlatives. avoid the hyperbole and the rhetoric. it's about music, folks - that's why we're all here. no need to put anybody else's equipment down to make yourself feel better, or to try to validate youself by convincing others that you're right or to try to validate yourself by jumping on the popular bandwagon.
yes, i'm aware of the irony implicit by my posting this and trying to change people's minds, but this i implore of all of you - do what makes sense and is logical to you. whther or not you agree with me.
thanks for taking my call, diane, and i'll take my response off the air.
:-)
honestly - happy listening to all. |
JSB there was a Shootout between, APL Denon, and Denon
exemplar, and Sony modwright,DV50. Read it for
yourself. |
Meta, Did you compare the APL side by side with Zanden combo extensively in your room and system? If you did not,please don't conclude anything yet.
Jsb, between those three players,i agree with Meta's recommendation, APL 3910. |
I would strongly suggest Denon 3910 mod by APL ( www.APLhifi.com ). I have had an opportunity to listen to the player last Wednesday and IMHO it sounds better than Zanden transport and Zanden DAC combo (I seldom get carried away with recommendations). The only problem: waiting time. Alex is overwhelmed with orders and you will have to wait +/- 4 weeks, but it's worth it :-)
Esoteric is out of the question - their famous "clamp" is just a nicely polished cover for the standard OEM part (not to mention the sonics).
I hope this helps.
BTW. - I am patiently waiting for my unit... |
