I would strongly suggest Denon 3910 mod by APL ( www.APLhifi.com ). I have had an opportunity to listen to the player last Wednesday and IMHO it sounds better than Zanden transport and Zanden DAC combo (I seldom get carried away with recommendations). The only problem: waiting time. Alex is overwhelmed with orders and you will have to wait +/- 4 weeks, but it's worth it :-)
Esoteric is out of the question - their famous "clamp" is just a nicely polished cover for the standard OEM part (not to mention the sonics).
I hope this helps.
BTW. - I am patiently waiting for my unit... |
Meta, Did you compare the APL side by side with Zanden combo extensively in your room and system? If you did not,please don't conclude anything yet.
Jsb, between those three players,i agree with Meta's recommendation, APL 3910. |
JSB there was a Shootout between, APL Denon, and Denon
exemplar, and Sony modwright,DV50. Read it for
yourself. |
i held my tongue in that supposed "shootout" thread, but i'm gonna chime in here.
i've no doubt that the APL player is a nice player. i'm sure it is.
but i've owned many a cd player in my day and 711smilin's assertion that the esoteric dv-50 is 'one-dimensional,' and 'sounds like radio shack,' and 'is bettered in every way' by the modded denons is a load of horse crap. even a previous poster in this thread has his facts wrong regarding the esoteric transport: there IS NO CLAIM to a VDRS clamp-mechanism in the dv-50. it is a pioneer transport! so? the APL uses a denon transport! what's your point? and no, the VDRS is *NOT* in any way a glossed-over OEM - it is designed and built in-house, and is one of the finest transports built.
again, no disrespect to alex of APL because i'm sure he truly does great work - but beware of the ludicrous superlatives and silly claims that one player "trounces" another or that because the esoteric dv-50 uses a pioneer transport that it's "a home theater unit with no business i a high-end system." this simply is not the case.
it's amazing the stigmas we have as audiophiles. the sacred cows we keep - cd's can't sound good; if it doesn't just play cd's it can't be any good; pcm leaves an audible fingerprint in every case; oem transports are cheap; if it plays dvd's also then it's "home theater" equipment. (God Forbid!)
that is just plain crap. i've owned the dv-50 along with several other highly ranked cd players and TO MY EARS it is a fantastic unit for the cost. period. on redbook, sacd, dvd-audio it is fantastic. i wouldn't trade my emmlabs meitner gear for the world, but i did trade my resolution audio opus 21 for it. did it handle cd as well as the resolution audio? i don't think so - not to my ears, anyway. did the resolution audio "trounce it?" or "destroy it," or "make it sound one-dimensional?" no, it didn't. i decided it was a fair sacrifice for universal playback. this this mean i'm right? no, it means i'm right for me. when i bought my meitner gear, did i buy it because somebody i trusted told me it sounded good? honestly, yes i did. but if i hadn't liked the sound, i'd have sold it right back. that's part of the fun - sometimes you can buy used stuff blindly and then sell it for the same price. it's fun and that way you don't have to rely on other's opinions - and certainly not let their opinions influence your own.
but sadly, that's not enough for some. no, some people in this hobby have agendas. i firmly believe that some of the loons who say that "this product destroys, demolishes, kills that one" are doing no more than trying to validate themselves, their "golden ears" and/or their purchases. yes, there are products out there that sound more real than others, but in the world of high-end cd players - it really comes down to personal preference. a krell will sound different than a linn. a naim different from a teac esoteric. meitner different from wadia. there's no need to try to convert anyone into believing that you are right, that your player is the best - enjoy the music, people! the day this hobby ceases to be fun is the day we should jump ship! let's just use some common sense - a disc player costing $5500 is not going to sound like radio shack! and if it did, it wouldn't sell! i don't care if it also plays dvds, it just wouldn't. you might not like the presentation of it, but *please.* there are so few absolutes in this hobby and when somebody is so insanely vocal in their vehemence in using them, that's when we need to step back and question why. i hate to sound so cynical, but if you read that whole thread with an open mind, you'll see what i mean.
that "shootout" thread IMHO is a microcosm of mob mentality. look at it from the beginning and follow the progression. it's a perfect model for a sociology textbook! at first, everybody jumps on the bandwagon saying "dv-50 is great, blah blah blah" (whether from their own experiences or because of the positive reviews, i cannot say) and then in comes one person, more vocal than the rest to challenge that notion. this one is so much more vocal than the others that he suddenly becomes the alpha male - the unquestionable audio guru, the one who first says that the emporer is wearing clothes - can't you see them? if not, you must be a fool. he convinces one person on the thread via a visit to his house of it and then all of a sudden, people start to doubt their own decisions and jump on his bandwagon - feeding his ego and validating themselves because they agree with the alpha male and his obviously "golden ears." i mean, nobody wants to be thought the fool, right? maybe they didn't like what they had heard after all? maybe somebody else knows more than they do about what sounds good to them.
nonsense. only you know what sounds good to you.
people, the emporer has no clothes. listen for yourself and make your own decisions. question when people overuse superlatives. avoid the hyperbole and the rhetoric. it's about music, folks - that's why we're all here. no need to put anybody else's equipment down to make yourself feel better, or to try to validate youself by convincing others that you're right or to try to validate yourself by jumping on the popular bandwagon.
yes, i'm aware of the irony implicit by my posting this and trying to change people's minds, but this i implore of all of you - do what makes sense and is logical to you. whther or not you agree with me.
thanks for taking my call, diane, and i'll take my response off the air.
:-)
honestly - happy listening to all. |
Lazarus28, Thank you for your viewpoint, I hope you read the WHOLE thread where I in fact Apoligized if I seemed overzealous. I am on a mission, and a search for the digital source that I feel is the best, to me. I believe what I am hearing right now in my system, with my ears, is in fact just that. I am really attempting to describe accurately, my findings. Not to promote, for I have no direct relationship with any modder, or manufacturer. In fact, I have the balls to do exactly what you say, That is I buy, try, compare, sell, or return. I, in fact am still searching for the right source. Only, now it is for my HT. I will still lend my unit for shootouts, comparisons, and fun. Hey, thats just me. I own a mortgage company, and do not need to sell audio for a living, nor do I. That being said, I do not have any motive except to report in an honest way, what I hear. You are right that not everyone is going to like the same thing. IMHO, most do, most meaning more than 50%. That makes a majority, and thats why shootouts are fun, and educational.
I am glad you have the Meitner gear, and are happy. Had I not run accross Alex, and APL I might have the Meitneer too. In fact I look forward to comparing, and guess what, If I like the meitner better, in my system, I will buy it. I have stated I have a budget of 20k for this, and I think the meitner falls in there. I hope one day soon you get to listen to the APL, and I get to compare, directly with the meitner. Hopefully my player will be at the shootout at audioesentials next weekend, (I will be on a cruise with my wife and daughter)I am just hoping those who
do attend, get the same type of enjoyment, and pleasure as me. My purpose here is not to promote a certain product, it is to bring great products to peoples attention. Why? Cause it makes me happy, and helps those around me on the same search as myself. A lot of people cannot take the time I am putting forth, and/or do not have the resources I have to play this game. Yes, to me, this is fun, I am on a journey to find my audio nirvana. Sounds to me that you are too. We seem to be on an analagous journey seperate, but together. Please tell me IYHO, the difference between the Meitner, and the DV-50. I am real interested to see how you would put it.
I also have owned the DV-50, or I never could have said what I said. Yes, my initial posting on the thread were overly zealous, and incorrectly phrased. I was so exited with my APL, and Exemplar, and acted foolish in my writings. I forgot that the written word, is a record. I did apologize for that. I must tell you I feel really proud about my journey, and my writings, today. I have rerceived much email, of appreciation from many audiogon members, requesting me to keep up the great work. I am still having fun here, I hope I am not offending you in any way, shape, or form. As I said before, I intend to keep on my search, until I stop having fun with it. Please try not to make this journey a drag. I invite you to vistit if you are ever in the Chicago area.
Thanks again for the comments, and yes I am a hairy guy, sort of like a gorilla, so maybe I am the Alpha male. Wink wink |
I wouldn't buy anything before trying the new Marantz SA-11 two channel SACD. Although I haven't heard it yet, the SA-14 is fabulous and hopefully the ll is even better.
Richard |
Meta, I heard you're in the Bay Area. Would you care to share a listening experience whenever you get the APL back? Thanks. |
If "since CD is my priority," take a look at the Talk Electronics Thunder 3.1b, it's in your price range.
IMO, unless you're going to go the Meitner route, forget about SACD and the modified universal player of the week. |
Kana813, IMHO both the APL, and the Exemplar, exceed any mass produced player I have heard, in redbook. I encourage you to listen for yourself, before making statements like you have. I invite you for a listen. The b onus here is the other formats being wondeful in addition. |
711smilin- we're both entitled to opinions.
Have you heard the Talk Electronics Thunder 3.1b? Or how about a speaker system driven by a power dac with a digital signal from a Esoteric P-O/G-O combo?
I have no need for a universal player, much less pay someone thousands of dollars to mod a Denon.
Enjoy your SACDs. |
Kana813, I would love to hear the Talk Electronics Thunder 3.1, and the Esoteric P-O/G-O combo. I do have an open mind, and am on the search. Where can I hear these in or around the Chicago area? If either are better on redbook, I would buy, 1 or both. I have never stated I have heard everything. I have not. I do enjoy SACD, too bad you do not. I also enjoy redbook now, more than ever before. I hope you are happy with what you own. I am. But, I will always have an open mind, and listen. Maybe you should try for yourself.
Thanks for the suggestions, If you could help direct me, I appreciate it. |
Doesn't Meridian make an all digital system, including active loudspeakers. I think those speakers take a digital input. Check it out. That might be King. |
Kana813, dont make your final judgement yet on modified,
players,Iam sure the Meitner are good, I have not heard
them,on the 19th of Dec, we will have big shootout here
in the Chicago suburb,wait for the result,including these
beloved Meitner, thru the courtesy of David Shapiro who
owns Meitner, and Brian from essentialaudio is hosting it.
The CDP you are recommending is never heard.If you live
close, you are more than welcome to come to my place,and
we will A/B them.So Agoners will become inform on what
players they have to buy. |
I would like to personaly thank 711smilin and all the guys on the shootout for IMHO is truly one of the most interesting threads i've ever read day in and out!Not only have i found the info on all the different equipment refreshing,I really like the way a bunch of guys have come together with some common ground and truly seem to be having fun doing it!! Thank you!Oh by the way If i need to re- mortgage my home i'm calling 711smilin,SEEMS TO ME TO BE A CLASS ACT! Kevin |
Kevin, thanks for the kind words, I am having fun, and I am glad it shows. BTW I do home purchases too. Wink Wink |
Kevin, that Shootout took at least 6 hours, from the
dealer going to 711 house, You bet we enjoy every minute.
Avguru and 711 are both bold and expressing all their
impression on all the cdp we played.This are the right
audiophile to be in the shootout,they will tell you
infront of your face.We will have onother shootout
on Dec 19.Thanks wish us all the luck. |
|
As an remote member of the aforementioned Chicago shootout gang, I feel most impressed by the degree of attention our little thread seems to have generated.
I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices.
As for our little thread being a testbed for sociological case studies, I am truly delighted Lazarus28 has found us worthy of such exalted academic attentions. Regretably sociology, being 80% untestable assumptions and 20% mental elucubrations ad-absurdum, does not qualify as a science.
It is fair to point out that SMILIN, AVGURU, JAYCTOY, yours humbly, and the rest of our little gang are not pretending to be questing for that almost biblical or alchemical TRUE TRUTH [version 4.1), nor that ideological clap-trappery epitomized by Zdanovian Socialist Realism--but rather for that ineffable sound which will uniquely delight us in so many differing ways. There are some of us who have found the most temporary solace in the APL mods, others in the DanWright ones. Others are still holding out, and hoping secretly that their true love (X-01) will still Reign Supreme--mayhaps we should aptly rename ourselves the 'Iron Audiofools" and invite Chairman Kaga to preside over our esoteric circle!
As for myself, I am yet another foolish digital audio grayhound, hopelessly chasing the electronic rabbit running ever faster along the digital rail. . . Arf, Arf, Arf!!!
Ponderously yours,
Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky |
I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices. However, (I hope these are the units you refer to), a rare Teac player with a Teac external clock was playing at CES in Jan 2004. Driving Avantgarde horns with the Avantgarde Model 5 Preamp/Integrated. I listened to "Black Coffee" off the Greta Matassa SACD and was totally gobsmacked. Hopefully it will be there again this year. Regards, |
Lazarus,
AVGURU here, the originator of the DV-50 thread. I love you, man! Some of your comments were right on. You speak your mind like I do. I like your boldness and conviction of your words. The DV 50 is a great, great universal player.....the best one on the the market today and only bested by the Esoteric UX1...the new $13,000 model which I now have in my home and soon hope to face off against 711's latest APL 3910 with the modded clock. I still own my DV 50 and love it. It should have never been referred to as a "Radio Shack". Knowing 711 as I do, he is excitable and has apologized. Please accept it.
Most of the comparisons done on my thread (where other units have bested the DV 50) were primarily in redbook. I have not compared these other units to the DV 50 in DVD-A, DVD-Video, multi-channel SACD, etc. Only a limited amount of time was spent comparing 2 channel SACD playback and those results are not yet conclusive. So in my opinion no one can claim that these modded units are better than the DVD-50 until a full shootout in all formats is conducted.
There is no other universal player on the market today (made by a major manufacturer...i.e Pioneer, Denon, Bel Canto, McCormack, Krell, etc) that's better than the DV 50. In that arena the DV 50 still reigns. However, if the these modded units can duplicate their redbook performance in the other aforementioned formats they will be superior to the DV 50. However, that is a BIG IF. Some of these modded units lose their multi-channel or DVD-Video capability after being modded. Most don't allow for balanced connections. All of this has to be taken into consideration when determining what's the best.
Lazarus, what I have come to find out is that the major players (Esoteric, Krell, etc) only spend 1/5th to 1/6th of retail on actual mfg costs and overhead. The DV 50 retails for $5,500 and Esoteric's total investment (parts, labor, marketing, advertising, etc) is less than $1,000. That's a shocker but its true...trust me. A high end dac is only $20. A power supply (transformer)about $30. The list goes on and on. Capacitors, caps, wiring are even less. When you consider the retail and distributor mark-ups (which I know but won't reveal) the manufacturers mark-up is at least 300% and probably as high as 500%.
With the modders, they can pick the best parts available on the market (its actually in their best interest to do so as they are in intense competition with other modders and there is a much smaller pool of customers willing to buy modded units). Additionally, they have nowhere near the overhead of the major mfg's so most of their mark-up is
on the labor side.
So you can buy a mid-fi unit that's outfitted with the best parts available and modded to the max (just how you like it)for around $3,000-$4,000 and probably less if you know how to negiotiate. Actually, these are not even mod's..they're total redesigns. So its really not a Denon or Pioneer or Sony..its a new unit only using the shell.
As you can see, the potential exists to get much more value for your money and a better product when buying from the better redesigners. And that's why these units have the potential to really outperform the major market product. The major mfg's are making a product with an eye on costs and profit first. Performance criteria is a distant 2nd, 3rd or fourth consideration. This is not true with all mfg's but with many of them.
Since all of these mfg's follow the same mark-ups and use the same distributers and buy parts from the same companies (Burr Brown, Crystal, Motorola to name a few) the quality they can provide at a given price point really doesn't vary much from mfg to mfg.
Esoteric hit the jackpot with the DV 50 because they were the first ones to correctly determine that interest in an audiophile level universal player was strong enough that consumers were willing to pay a much higher price than what other mfg's thought the market would bear for a top of the line universal. Most of the universals before the DV 50 were around $2,000-$3,000. The extra $2,500 Esoteric charged allowed them to make a better product without compromising (and probably even increasing) their almighty profit targets.
And unfortunately, the only way Esoteric can substantially improve upon the performance of the DV 50 (and again maintain if not increase their profit margins) is to now charge $13,000 for the UX1 and X01. They're probably targeting a 500% profit margin on these units rationalizing that even if they reach only 30-40% of the volume they had on the DV 50 they'll still make out like fat cats.
I'm willing to bet the modders can produce units that exceed the performance of the UX1 and X01 for about $5,000-$6,000. I may even find in my continued shoot-out that the APL or Modwright units already exceed the performance of these Esoteric units. And this is the part that makes me angry...that we as audiophiles have to pay so much money to appease a mfg's over-zealous and greedy profit margins when similar or better quality can be had for much less. To
add insult to injury, Esoteric's warranty is only 1 YEAR
whereas I'm sure all of these mod guys would be willing to back up their products over the life of the unit.
Don't get me wrong...audio is not any different than other industries (jewelry, automobiles, etc) that also have outrageous profit margins. So I don't want to come across as unfairly picking on this industry when there are others that are worse. But I take the same approach in any consumer good that I buy...know the mark-ups, determine what's a good value and buy accordingly. If it weren't for the fact that I know the profit margins and have developed relationships with dealers that allow me to get great deals I'd probably buy all my audio equipment from people like Dan Wright or Alex.
Lazarous, Enjoy your DV 50 and know there is no other universal mass produced universal that can better it. But also take your own advice and give a listen to some of these modded units. You might be surprised at what you hear!
Enjoy the music,
AVGURU
|
Since 711smilin has the Exemplar/Denon 3910 which much impressed him, was it included in the shootout? If not, I think you guys missed an opportunity to hear the best universal player.
I am mildly interested in shootouts, but think systems can greatly affect preferences. For example, an unduly bright system may sound better with a rolled off player. Better than a year ago, many of us heard a shootout at the VSAC show in Silverdale. The Exemplar 2900, Alex's Phillips SACD1000, Dan Wright's Sony, and Allen Wright's Sony 3000 with Level 4 mods were included. The room was terrible and there were too many humans in the room dampening all dynamics. One could draw no real conclusions for this shootout.
But Alex's unit is of some interest to me, although I already own an Exemplar/Denon 3910 which has only 150 hours on it. It is already clearly superior to the Exemplar/Denon 2900 which in my experience was clearly more open and dynamic than the Teac DV50 and the Teac Esoteric UX-1 without the atomic clock. |
TBG, it is my understanding that APL 3910 was in fact included in the shootouts. That would have been 711smilin's unit. Though, as I recall, at that time the unit did not include the masterclock that Alex just lately added to 711smilin's unit. So in my view, fresh rounds of shootouts among the latest APL 3910, Modwright Sony 999ES, and Teac UX-1 and X-01 are in order. Please note that the ModWright does not support a masterclock at this time. It will be interesting to determine if this feature makes a decisive difference. |
AVGURU - i don't own a dv-50.
not anymore, anyway. my purpose wasn't so much to defend the dv-50 as it was to attempt tp get people to use their own ears and not believe the hype until you've heard for yourself.
but, i do love the dv-50 regardless. |
Guidocorona, the Exemplar/Denon 3910 is by John Tucker and I know Steve has it also. It is curious thus that it was not included. Might it be better and not used for fear that it would be judged best?
I still question, however, whether there is any transferable benefit to a shootout. I this I concur with Lazarus. But I also realize that regretably most of us lack the opportunity to hear side by side the many unit that might interest us. |
TBG, the Exemplar 2900 was in the contest. But, apparently unanimously, it came in behind the APL, and at least for those who thought the ModWright 999ES to be best, it came in third place. You are correct in stating that any shootout results should be considered with a grain of salt. On the other hand, the only thing worse than having such shootouts is not having one at all. Let us remember that the Chicago gang is primarely busy having fun. As an added bonus, they are sharing their fun with us. It is up to you/us/everyone-else to read through and extract those little nuggets of priceless information that may be useful to us. Besides, isn't it fun just reading these threads? Guido |
TBG,
Both 711 and I came to the conclusion that although the Exemplar 3910 was a very good player (great detail, openeness, accuracy, etc) it was not the most musical of the players included in the shoot-out. 711 feels that the APL 3910 (even before the new clock)was the most musical unit. In my opinion the Dan Wright modded Sony (9000ES) was the most musical and best player. After now listening to the modded Sony in two other systems since that shoot-out I'm even more convinced that it is the better unit.
The players in the shoot-out were Alex's APL 1000, DV 50,
Modwright Sony 9000ES, APL 3910 and Exemplar 3910. I currently have the Esoteric UX1 in my posssession for a home demo and hope to face it off this week (with 711 and others from our thread present) against the APL 1000, 2 modded Sony's and the APL 3910. 711 sold his Exemplar.
Regardless of system matching, one can still determine via shoot-outs which player is the better unit. I agree the best unit may not "ALWAYS" sound the best in a particular system due to system synergy and matching issues, but it should 8 out of 10 times if its clearly superior.
UHH, I just have one question for you, TBG. Exactly when and where was it that you compared the Exemplar 3910 to the Esoteric UX1? On what system? And exactly how did you conclude that the Exemplar 3910 was superior to the UX1? Or did you make the "assumption" that it was better than the UX1 since its better than the DV 50 (which I agree it is)?
See, the reasons we do these shoot-outs is because people make statements and then can not back them up with any proof (via written results or an open listening forum with many attendees)that one unit clearly outperformed another.
Everything that we've auditoned so far has been documented in my thread.
Just so you know, my initial listening tests (1 day only) of the UX1 (vs. my clear recollection of the Exemplar sound)leads me to believe that they are very close and share more similarities than differences. If in fact the exemplar is better it is only by the very smallest of margins. And in SACD I can already tell you the Esoteric is better..hands down. Which leads me to believe that when we bring in the X01 it will be the best of them all but not necessarily the most muscial due to a lack of a tube output stage.
Keep tuned to our thread. I won't have time to comment anymore on this thread but I did want to make at least one rebuttal.
AVGURU |
It was in my own system, but the UX-1 had to travel to get here and had only been on an hour.
I think your estimate that most often the better unit will stand forward regardless of the system 8 times in 10 is wildly optimistic, unless we are limiting ourselves to the most revealing systems. Yes, I know everyone thinks his or her system is quite revealing, but we know better.
I am not saying that the UX-1 is a bad unit by any means. I first heard it in the lesser Avantgarde suite on classic Duos. This room sounded far superior to the main room with a lesser player.
The thread on the DV50 is too long to monitor. |
TBG, as all threads are linear lists, it should make no difference monitoring a short or a long one. Only the last 50 postings max are displayed by default. To see the last few postings of a thread all is needed is to press ctrl-end to go to the bottom of the page, then up-arrow a dozen times. I am totally blind and it takes me no more than 3.5 seconds to find the last posting on any thread. I bet it will take you as a sightling a lot less than that! Happy reading. |
Tbg,Actually Avguru visited my place couple of weeks
ago,And heard the SonyModwright that was involved in
the shootout,because there was a question of this
being inaccurate and having a white background. All
those doubt were erased,Avguru even more realise
How much 3d, black backgound,musical,fast,and natural
sounding, and the quiteness this player have.This
player is very consistent,it did perform very well in the
three system we played .Avguru even whisper to me
that classical is so natural, and that He wants to
try to get into classical.It is because,the Sony will
do that in highly resolving musical system.
I do respect modifiers,From what I heard between the
APL,Exemplar,DV50 although they are very good players,
The SonyMod is just too much, Avguru even mentioned to
me, How balance the Sony from top to bottom.
My question is this, will the superclock of the APL
will improve the sound, my answer is Yes, will it be
enough to beat sonymod musicality? Well wait for the
Next Shootout.
Tbg I do agree with synergisity,the SonyMod I have is
very friendly, its so easy to mate with other gear.
I think its the tube Dan used, they are cryod 5687
tungsol, this is what makes this player friendly.
Avguru and I went to listen to the 0X1,this player is
very good,but the system is not coherent and not musical
enough, for me to draw conclusion.One thing I remember
the 0X1, is much smoother than the DV50,and its much
better.I am very interested to compare the Sonymod
on this unit.AVGuru is auditioning the UX1,I might
go to his house this week to compare the sony again.
The SACD on the Sony will be tested against the UX1,
As far as I know this is where the unit Shine more.
Will see.Enjoy the music, Merry Christmas to All,and
Happy Holiday. |
JayCToy, did you mean X-01 instead of 0X1? |
The Krell SACD Standard vs. Esoteric DV-50 competition was so difficult to resolve - that I ended up purchasing both of them. The Krell SACD Standard feeds my primary two channel system; and is an absolute delight. I love what it does for SACDs and CDs - both are rendered faithfully and beautifully. I have found (after much trying) that it works extremely well with the Krell KAV280p pre-amp and tube based amplification (Antique Sound Labs Hurricane DT200s, in my case). I tried just about every two channel player I could get my hands on before making this purchase; including the much esteemed Linn Unidisk 1.1 - but found the Krell to not only be it's match, but it's better when you factor in the excellent user interface and completely flawless execution. A first class digital source that never fails to excite.
The Estoeric DV-50 is in the theater system and just plain does everything very, very well. I am underutilizing it for stereo listening actually, primarily using it as a DVD-A and SACD multichannel player. For these two duties, though - it really shines. It single-handedly elevated my otherwise mid-priced theater setup (Rotel pre-pro, 5x200w amplification and Linn speakers) into something quite a few steps above it's pedigree. The Rotel RSP-1066 happily gets out of the way in multi-channel pass-thru and the Rotel RMB-1095 gives adequate power and control over the Linn Ninka, Ekwal, Sizmik and Katan speaker array for my smallish room. I had almost given up on DVD-A as a long term format (relying on the Rotel RDV-1060 as my source), feeling like it did many things well enough, but exagerated the 'gimmicky' nature of some of the popular DVD-A mixes and had a bit of an etched top-end which irritated after a short listening session. The Estoeric DV-50 solved that problem in spades: The surround channels do what I think they are supposed to for music - provide ambiance and extension to the performance. The center channel gives rock-solid focus without narrowing the sound-stage and the main speakers do the rest.
I haven't tried the other universal player you mention - but I'm offering you my experience in the above two units: you just plain can't go wrong. For less than the price of a single Linn Unidisk 1.1 - I got one of each of these guys: and I know I'm more than twice as happy as I would have been with the Linn flagship.
If you have the luxury of a separate stereo system from your video system, you might be happier with the Krell and do something else for a surround source. If you could setup a dual-zone system you could easily use the DV-50 to serve for two rooms: it has the 5.1 outputs for the video system AND a pair of balanced (or single-ended) stereo outputs that you could easily run a long ways to another room for a killer two channel feed.
I think it is absolutely wonderful that at a fair price we can have access to such fine products. Both of these units are beautiful examples of exactly how to engineer an exceptional digital source that will please for many, many years. |
Guido you are right its X01, Thank you for the correction. |
Guido you are right its X01, Thank you for the correction.
Sorry for the error, Its confusing. |
DJA,
I respect your choices in gear and I'm glad you're enjoying both units. I must admit I like how you are utlizing both units. The DV 50 is really, really good in multi-channel for both DVD-A and SACD. The Krell is an excellent redbook and SACD player.
If I may make a couple of music recommendations...try Ray Charles new SACD multi-channel "Genious Loves Company" as well as Eric Clapton and B.B Kings latest calaboration "Ridin With the King" on mult-channel DVD-A. Both are superb. Special mention goes to the Ray Charles disc...the orchestra arrangements are simply breath-taking.
To enjoy the BB King disc at its best use a subwoofer..the ".1" recorded bass track is excellent and should be spotlighted instead of played through your main speakers.
Regarding the Krell SACD standard, I thought it was smoother than the DV 50 on redbook but lacked the dynamics and detail of the DV 50. You may want to try a high end platform and good power cord on the DV 50 and do another AB test. You might be surpised at the results.
Oh..one another thing that you probably don't want to hear. The Esoteric UX1 and X01 are twice as good as the DV 50 on multi-channel music. Now that's a scary thought!
Enjoy the music!
AVGURU
|
"I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices."
Guidocorona- FYI- I heard the units in a $200K system here on Maui. People who want and can afford the best know how to get it. |
Kana813, are these TEAC products imported in to Canada? I long ago got a P1 transport for 110 volts from Canada. Is the G0 the atomic clock that can also be used with the UX-1? |
Kana813: Please do describe the supersistem you listen to with the Teac front-end and give us your sonic findings in detail.
TBG: There are two Teac clocks compatible with X-01, UX-1, P70/D70, and the higher components: G0, and G0S. The G0 is likely some kind of advanced crystal oscillator clock. G0S is Rubidium-based, but whether a Rubidium crystal is used as an oscillator, or nuclear decay is measured from a sample I do not know.
I am pasting below some info I posted on them on the DV50 shootout thread:
Teac Esoteric G-0 external clock generator has an accuracy of ±0.1ppm. It is said to be:
a. ten times more accurate than the DCS Verona, rated at 1ppm.
b. 30 times more accurate than the internal clock of the X-01 and X-03, which are rated at 3ppm.
c. 100 times more accurate than the internal clock of the DCS Verdi, apparently rated at 10ppm.
The list price of G-0 in Japan is relatively reasonable: equivalent to $4500.
The Rubidium-based Teac Esoteric G-0s clock generator is yet another entire kettle of fish: a staggering accuracy of ±0.05ppb(=±0.00005ppm)!! List price in Japan approx equivalent to $11000!!
Both clocks appear to be compatible with X-01 and UX-1, and will likely also work with X-03 and UX-3. They are also said to be compatible with DCS gear. |
Kana813, are these TEAC products imported in to Canada? I long ago got a P1 transport for 110 volts from Canada. Is the G0 the atomic clock that can also be used with the UX-1?
Tbg- I cant help you with Teacs distribution system in Canada. If your P1 has a clock input connection, it should work with any external clock.
Please do describe the supersistem you listen to with the Teac front-end and give us your sonic findings in detail.
Guidocorona I havent heard any of the units listed in this thread, so I cant give you an audiophile description/comparison. I didnt look at all the model numbers, but in addition to the PO/GOS, the Maui system had B&W N800s biampd w/Rowland electronics, power conditioners, lots of room treatments and a bunch of exotic cables from Japan. Ive never seen or heard any of this stuff before. On some old Redbook CDs I was familiar with, the system was totally effortless, with absolutely no hint that I was listening to a digital recording. If youre looking for the best in digital playback, I suggest you stop wasting time on these one box CDPs and start looking at separate transports and dacs. |
Kana813: The only two-box front-end from TEAC I heard was the P70/D70 combo. I found its sound to be so close on redbook to single-box X-01 to make the apparent difference negligible. Granted, the statement must be tempered by the fact that I heard these on two different systems.
I am sure I could find a way to import the P01/D01/D01 tri-box solution from Japan or I may be able to get Teac America to special order it, but its price tag makes it quite simply out of the question. The beauty of X-01 is that it is also a very good starting point for future expansion. A fellow audiogoner from N.Y. (MGOTTLIEB) is using it now as a transport: he has augmented it with the DCS Elgar + Purcell and finds the mixed stack to be superior to a purely DCS stack.
A similar arrangement could be made with X-01 and a Zanden DAC. And of course X-01 would accept the G0 and G0S clocks. Now, if you are starting to ask yourself why on earth I do not stop talking about this and act instead, you are not the only one. . . It's the usual WAF: a rather complicated 'quantum entanglement' of sorts. |
Kana813,
It really doesn't help anyone on this thread for you to talk about how glorious sounding a system is if you can't remember any of the vital information such as the manufacturer of the components, model number, etc. That's like someone talking about what a beautiful vacation they had and then when asked where they went their response is "I don't remember".
Guido asked you a valid question about how you heard Esoteric gear that to our knowledge is not yet avialable in the U.S. or if avaialbe on a very limited basis. First you tell him you're not familair with the specific model numbers he mentioned. Then later you say "in addition to the PO/GO combination...". I'm confused. Are you faimailir with the models in question or not?
Furthermore, your rather abrasive and presumptious comment " People who want and can afford the best know how to get it" is rather unecessary and offensive. Exaxctly what does that mean?
In the case of Guido, who by the way is a very well paid Engineering manager at IBM and is also 100% blind, a descriptive analysis of the components and sound is quite important as in some respects the feedback he receives here on A-gon serves as his "eyes and ears" and aids in his decision process.
Furthermore, there are some one box solutions on the market today that I would put up against any dac/transport system including Forsell, Meitner, Audio Aero, etc.
Your arrogance is annoying. You need to talk to your Maui partner who goes by the name of "Hawaii Kid" on A-gon. Although he has owns some of the top gear available today he still finds time to buy "mundane" one box solutions like DV 50's, Opus Audio, etc. And he is always happy to give very detailed and unbiased opinions based on his experience with "actual" product names that he can remember instead of spouting superlatives about gear he heard in passing.
Lighten up! It's only audio equipment and a hobby.
AVGURU |
Thank you AVGURU for your kind words.
What is also amusing is that my current CDP is in fact an excellent--if venerable--EAD T1000/DSP7000 Mk.3 combo unit, which in distant 1994 sat towards the top of the then young digital dungheap.
Of course, I did not choose it because it was a two-box unit, but because it sounded better than anything I could find in not-so-sunny Toronto at the time, except for its larger brother, which had been vetoed by my financially responsible better half.
In recent times, having heard the DS tristack with firewire, Teac X-01, Teac P70/D70, and a variety of single box players, including Burmester 001 and Bel Canto PL1-a, I haven't heard anything which sounded as 'right' and gave me 'palpitations' as the X-01, not even the vaunted DCS stack, which in fact failed completely to stirr my grizzling heart.
I should also like to point out that--from a purely tactile point of view--the solidity, fit and finish of the Esoteric products easily surpasses anything I have experienced/touched this far. Even the bottom plate of the unit is built, assembled and finished to the same standard as the rest of the unit. Honestly, if you turned the X-01 upside down, and forced it to sit belly-up and feet-up on the shelf, it would not look any less gorgeous. |
Avguru - you're the one who needs to lighten up.
I was a guest at the man's home who owned the Esoteric gear. I didn't go there to review his system. He invited me over to listen to music. I've heard the system three times. Each time we listened for two to three hours, does that qualify as passing? Please excuse me if I didn't take notes on every part of the system. I was too busy just enjoying the music. Funny I've never seen you post in the music forum.
I didn't know Guido is blind. He didn't seem upset by my comments, and who appointed you moderator in this thread?
Mele Kalikimaka |
Kana813,
I am the originator of one of the best, most interesting and most well responded to threads going on Audiogon now. Over 375 responses and still going strong. Look up my member name and my active threads and you'll see it.
You're right...I am not the moderator of this thread nor do I wish to be so. I just felt some of your responses were inappropriate and I'm a big believer in treating people with common courtesy and respect.
Anyway, I'm off this thread now so you don't have to worry about me "butting in" on your dialogue with others.
Enjoy the Music!
AVGURU |
"I am the originator of one of the best, most interesting and most well responded to threads going on Audiogon now. Over 375 responses and still going strong. Look up my member name and my active threads and you'll see it."
AVGURU-
Wow! You da man.
To quote Lazarus28, "shakes head, sighs." |
Thank you Mel and AVGURU. No offense taken and no apologies needed.
blindness is much like a mother-in-law: you may not truly love her, but you can get along fine; only you'd rather didn't have to deal with her every day. In that I consider myself half lucky: mother-in-law lives 2000 miles away. So, no prob at my end.
While not wanting to overstate the rather modest social advantages of the condition, I have become over the years rather apt and fond of judging the quality of the construction/finish of equipment using the tactile experience [yes, that means fondling], as you may read in my previous rant about the hidden virtues of the X-01's exquisitely wrought and taught underbelly.
The same X-01 also produced for me the most enjoyable synesthetic images of sound and music, among all the players I have seen this far. Yet I do know that it can't be the ultimate.
Finally to all: let us go back to the music and our quest for digital audio Nirvana! [in kinly camaraderie, that is]
|
Children, Children! To your rooms! Time out, 30 minutes! No audio tonight! |
Wow, " ... the originator of one of the best, most interesting and most responded to threads going on Audiogon now".
That's quite the accomplishment, congratulations! LOL. |
Avguru,
Modesty is a better approach. Mele Kalikimaka caught you by surprise; you over-reacted just a little.
Regards, |
Folks, may I gently point out the current caffaffle started because of an inadvertantly worded sentence by one of the contributors. The simple matter was cleared in private messages and should now be considered closed. We all had our reactions pro or con; we all had some fun; vented some audio steam; roared with rightious audiophilic wrath, played at "My DAC is Bigger Than Yours" and "My Powerchord is certainly Longer Than Yours. Now, let's all settle down. I for one would be most interested in knowing from people who have had experience with the TacT DSPs and digital amps. Who will take the baton? Guido |
Guido- U da man [wink]. Wish more folks here had your sense of perspective and humor. "And Mele Kalikimaka to all, and to all a good night" |
