Does this exist? Preamp/Streamer/DAC with MQA, Roon and more
I'm looking for a particular set of features that seem to be very hard to find in a stereo (2.1) product. My budget is preferably around $2,500 but there is some flexibility. Here's what I would like:
Must have -Preamp -Network streamer -DAC -Roon endpoint -MQA compatible (not interested in your opinion of MQA)
Want to have -HDMI inputs/output for video switching only and 2 channel audio (to allow TV sound through stereo) -Room correction -Subwoofer management
I recently purchased the newly released NAD C658 which, when adding the optional HDMI module, covers every must have and want to have (Dirac room correction is coming in a later FW update) for a total of $1,800. Perfect! The problem is that so far the thing sounds lousy. I'm trying to let it burn in more and see if Dirac comes and makes it better, but it's not looking good after the first few days. The DAC seems to be the problem. It seems to suffer from audible time smearing and sounds too clinical and harsh so I am suspect about Dirac helping with that.
I've also seen the SimAudio Moon 390 but it's $5,300 and doesn't have room correction or subwoofer management. On the less expensive end, SimAudio also has the Moon Ace for $2,900 which has the same features as the 390, minus the HDMI inputs. I'd use the preouts to my own amp since the Ace is an integrated amp.
Then there is the Aurender A10. It costs even more than the Moon 390 and doesn't have HDMI inputs.
Cambridge Audio has some well regarded streamers but they aren't Roon compatible.
Finally, there is the PS Audio DirectStream and DirectStream Junior. I recently purchased the DSJr since it can be had close to my budget and while it sounds incredible as a streamer and DAC, it's not viable as a preamp. I spoke to PS Audio about this and they recommend using a separate preamp for the DS and especially for the Jr. I can't remember exactly why but they told me the signal to noise ratio when used straight into an amp wasn't ideal. I tested this myself and found that the DSJr sounded better even running through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp than it did straight into my amp (the receiver uses pre-outs to the same amp). I don't want to run a DSJr through a Marantz receiver and if I blow the budget on the DAC, I won't be able to get a capable preamp worthy of mating with it. Plus I'm really trying to get down to fewer boxes.
Are there any other options out there that I'm missing?
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Second, when I connected a PS Audio DSJr through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp, then to the exact same Musical Fidelity amp and Monitor Audio speakers, the sound was GLORIOUS in comparison to the NAD"
You don't need amplification so a Pre-Processor would be ideal. Marantz Pre-Pro are readily available, both new and used. 7705 from Audio Advisor: $2199 NIB FYI- Kalman R was very surprised by the quality of the DAC in the next model up...8805, stating that it took upwards of $5k in external DACs to improve digital reproduction.
@iopscrl Perhaps you are right, it just seems silly to buy an 11.2 channel processor with all kinds of fancy processing to end up putting it on Pure Direct mode the entire time and use only 2.1 channels.
@rbstehno I'm gravitating in that direction. I already sold the PS Audio DAC but could buy another one. Interesting that their other preamp (the Stellar, I'm not counting the BHK due to budget) is also a preamp/DAC, so I wonder if that one really does work well as a preamp or not.
@drumnman2 Do you own the 658? Any listening impressions?
@golfmatchplayer The Oppo 205 looks pretty good but is discontinued and now people are asking 3x the MSRP for used ones. At the moment I don't really need any analog inputs because all stereo listening is through Roon streaming and TV audio is HDMI through a few sources (Bluray, Roku, Chromecast) that would probably just all be fed to the DAC from the TV via a single optical cable. Having an analog input or two would be nice for flexibility but isn't a requirement right now.
jnehma1 If it’s high quality sound you want, neither the Marantz or the Deqx are going to do the trick. Consider the Mytec Brooklyn but add a linear power supply and your Dave sound quality can be obtained. Beware HDMI swithching devises, if they do 4K, they frequently do NOT do Dolby Atmos. A recent struggle in my movie room.
This is a great question for me. I am looking for the exact same thing. I thought the NAD C658 was the solution. I am very sorry you were not satisfied. There are no "professional" reviews out, as of yet. Thanks for your incite.
You mentioned the PS Audio DACs and your Marantz. I also have a Marantz Pre/Pro 7703. I listen to my music and TV through its DAC. It is a good DAC for my music, but I wondered if I added a DAC into the audio chain, such as PS Audio's, could I hear the difference with average ears for my age. Please advise what difference you heard with the Jr. through your Marantz. Do you think the difference was great enough to be worth the addition of a separate DAC? Money is not the issue; hearing is the issue. There are numerous DACs I would look into, but before I go down this expensive and time consuming road, I would like to know if it is worth it or would I be just going down the rabbit hole with no satisfactorily positive solution at the bottom
In all honesty with the crazy cheap prices that Mytek Brooklyn DAC are appearing for sale lightly used I can highly recommend them. Huge improvement compared to a built in dac in an integrated amp. Now I have moved up further to a $4500 tube DAC and when I have sold a kidney or two it will likely be a Chord Dave in the rack (10k!)
At just over 1k for a used Brooklyn it is a move you will never regret.
@firstonetallguy I have two Marantz receivers in the house, both of which have only ever been used as processors (I use the pre-outs to separate amps). I don't know which DAC is in your 7703 versus the two receivers I have but I connected the PS Audio through both of them and the improvement was easily noticeable. It wasn't like oh my god night and day, but I could definitely hear improvements. Much better bass and mid-bass quality, a bit more clarity and resolution, a bit more air. I use Tidal via Roon so first off, it sounded much better via the PS Audio simply because it streams at full quality. The Marantz products aren't Roon Ready so I had to stream to them using Airplay, which downsamples everything to 48khz/16bit. But I also loaded some of my FLAC files to a USB stick and plugged that into one of the receivers. Playing those files through the HEOS app sounded MUCH better than the same song via Airplay. In fact, that difference was even greater than the one between the PS Audio and the USB stick through HEOS. But for real A/B comparisons, I skipped Airplay and just compared the USB stick through the receiver DAC against Roon streaming through the PS Audio.
Whether the cost is worth the difference is an individual question. MQA files, which only the PS Audio supports, sounded especially good so for me the improvement in quality across the board plus the added benefit of MQA made the PS Audio worth it. But I started getting upgraditis really badly and decided it would be better to sell the PS Audio and get the NAD as a simpler solution (I have a 4 year old and can't really set up a great system without putting it at risk of toddler-destruction). I'm starting to regret that decision...
I still think mine sounds good, and gets better by the day. Like many other components, it is very particular about what you feed it. Bad recordings sound bad, great recordings sound great. I keep hearing from folks that think it is harsh, bright, etc. Maybe because I’m a trumpet player, I think if anything it can err on the side of being a little laid-back and not as engaging as the best stuff I’ve heard and owned. When I auditioned it against an M12, this was my takeaway, too - it did not seem as "energized". However, that was a C658 straight out of the box vs an M12 with at least a few hundred hours on it, if not more. The M12 is also another ~$2500 if you add the BluOS module.
There has been a lot of criticism about the choice of chip set for the C658. Please forgive this very naive and stupid question, for which I’m pretty sure I already know the answer, but is there a way to upgrade the chip set, or is it like trying to perform a brain transplant? Again, apologies for a stupid question, but I’m curious if that might be an option down the road.
@jnehma1 are you aware that you can stream MQA directly to your Marantz from a PC. I was searching for ways to do this for a while. This can be done with software called Audirvana that is available for PC and Mac. You can download it and try it out for 30 days to see if it works for you.
So the way it would work is you would log on to TIDAL through Audirvana, choose songs via this interface and Audirvana would do the first MQA unfold (up to 24/96). This is then sent wirelessly to your Marantz via a protocol called UPnP (it's similar to AirPlay but is not proprietary to Apple and it supports hi-res formats). The setup is really simple, Audirvana will automatically detect UPnP from your Marantz and show it as an available output.
There may be other ways to emulate a UPnP connection to your Marantz so you can stream directly from the Tidal app, but I haven't investigated this, and if so, it may be a more complicated setup. If Audirvana works for you then you could investigate other options, or choose to buy the software.
I too have been investigating dedicated preamp / DAC / MQA for stereo that supports home theater bypass to potentially improve sound quality over my Marantz AV8802a. The Simaudio Moon 390 is a strong contender, but to be honest, the sound quality from the Marantz is pretty good.
Definitely MQA streamed via Audirvana is a notable step up. Audirvana also can up-sample 16/44 to whatever your prepro supports (and more importantly your network bandwidth will allow). Upsampling does improve SQ as well.
Interesting thread. I'll need to look at Audirvana. Thanks Edsky.
I'll be trying both the DSJ and a NAD M12. I also have the 7703 and plan on replacing it with the T758v3 for the HT room. Auditioned the C658 and didn't feel it was that much better than the 2i. Maybe I should have kept it longer and given it a better assessment. Goal is to try and simplify as much as possible, but I'm steadily moving up the DAC $$$ food chain looking for the right product.
I'm now listening to the M10. Love the build and ease of use. Unfortunately, not using the nCore amp as I have a pair Emotiva Stealth 8s that I'm using in my stereo room. If you remember my post over at AVSforum, my kids are older and I now have more time to listen. Love all the new options with streaming, MQA and miss how good 2 channel audio can be..
@edsky Thanks for the feedback. Unless I am missing something though, there's no difference between what you described with Audirvana and what I can do today with Roon. In either case, the software does the first unfold but since my receiver is not MQA compatible, it wouldn't be able to do the final decode.
@mbolek Anxious to hear your feedback regarding the M10 and the T758. I don't know anything about the Emotiva speakers but assuming by your response that they are active. Do you have any passive speakers to test?
Yes. Emotivas are active. I have Monitor Audio SoundFrame in-walls in the HT room.
They are nice but may not be a fair speaker to test with the M10 or any of these higher $$ DACs. May be able to get my hands on some KEF R3s. That would be a better comparison.
@jnehma1 quite right, you can do the same with Roon. My apologies as I forgot you had Roon, as you were describing AirPlay as the mechanism you used to stream to your Marantz. I hear very good things about Roon. Though very pricey, I may give it a try someday.
If I may ask, how do you have your components set up? Are you using your AV processor and NAD pre amp to the same amplifier and speaker, or do you have two completely different setups? If using the same amplifier and speakers then I assume you run the Marantz AV pre outs into the analogue inputs of the NAD and run that in home theatre bypass mode?
@edsky Initially I had the Marantz receiver in the family room due to the need for dual purpose with tv viewing. I run the preouts to my Musical Fidelity amp, so the receiver just acts as a preamp and DAC. I purchased the NAD to replace the receiver as a better preamp and DAC, plus give me direct Roon streaming rather than Airplay. I don’t plan to setup an HT bypass since the family room is just a 2.1 setup. I have a separate media room with surround sound.
My results with the NAD C658 have been simular to AudioTroy’s. I have the NAD connected to a Krell KAV 150A amp via Audioquest Mackenzie XLR cables. From my amp to my KEF LS50’s I have Douglas connections 11 AWG speaker cables. I have 2 other preamps availabile and have not even thought about using them.
I might suggest you look at the NAD M12. Part of their masters series, it does everything you want, or has plug in modules to do everything want. I have the unit in one system, PS audio Stellar DAC/Pre in another and Parasound Halo gear in a 3rd. The PS Audio and NAD Masters gear is substantially better than the Parasound gear which sounds slow and muddy in comparison. The NAD M gear takes a long time to break in (a couple hundred hours probably) but is resolving and sweet to listen to. Is there better gear? Sure. Still worth a look. You’d be stretching your budget but might find a unit lightly used. Best,
@mgrif104 I heard the NAD M12/M22 combo and it was shockingly good. Do you stream directly from Ethernet to the M12? If so can you use ROON that way or do you need to use a NAD app?
A second question is what amps have you tried with the M12?
I agree that the M12 is quite good (after burn in!). I run it with the M22 amp - also quite good. Many will dismiss them because of the topology, but they’re missing out.
I currently stream via Ethernet to a Bluesound Node 2. I have not used Roon but that is a viable option as I have a souped up Mac Mini inserted into the network that would more than suffice as a Roon core and the Node 2 works as an endpoint.
Based on your comments here (and from a different thread), perhaps I’m better just upgrading the Node 2 instead of complicating things by going to something like the Linn Select DSM. I think I’ll still explore it but am encouraged by what you suggest here.
FWIW, based on additional research including suggestions from people on this thread, I ended up returning the NAD C 658 and upping my budget significantly to purchase a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. So far I am impressed with the Lyngdorf. Dirac still is not available on the C 658, so I was unable to compare the sound with room correction, but the Lyngdorf sounds significantly better than the NAD without using any room correction. Once I turn on RoomPerfect it goes way beyond. I guess that's to be expected given that the Lyngdorf is more than 4 times the price of the NAD. You definitely do get a lot of features for the price with the NAD, and perhaps the NAD M10 is the ultimate value/performance intersection. Wish I had gotten a chance to try that one out as well. Apparently Dirac was just released for it today.
Hey guys, just found this thread. I have a Node 2i but wondered what it would sound like with Dirac. So this week I got a NAD C 658. Like what @jnehma1 mentioned, even with the new 3.4.3 firmware, it appears that it still does not support Dirac. I’ve opened a ticket with NAD but they have yet to reply. For those considering the unit, I will also tell you that it currently doesn’t show up as an Airplay2 device, like the Node 2i does. So yeah, we have some outstanding issues. Airplay2 and Dirac aside, my guess is I couldn’t pass a blind test vs the Node 2i. As a sidenote, having a handheld remote control that also changes the volume in Roon is pretty cool though.
I'll jump back in and say that the Dirac on the M10 is very impressive. Both Jon and another friend have the 3400 and think that is the pinnacle to date. M10 is a new design (compared to the C658 and even the T758). I had the 658 and it seemed like old technology. I have kept the 758 as it is a solid processor for the price (especially w/ Dirac).
M10 is a cool box. I have always tucked away my gear in audio cabinets. Not the M10, I have it paced on top of my sideboard and love the touch screen and VU meters. Roon/Tidal/Dirac/nCore lets me sit back and enjoy...
I found this thread via a search engine and decided to sign up.
This thread, along with the AVS thread, have been fantastic sources for info about the NAD C 658. Taking into account budget & features, the NAD is one of only two left on my list of possible upgrades; the other being the Parasound Halo P6.
So far, I haven’t located a post on the web where the NAD C 658 has been paired with a PS Audio Stellar S300 power amp. Has anyone here had that experience and, if so, can they share their observations and thoughts about the overall sound characteristics the C 658 / S300 combo delivers?
M10 is a new design (compared to the C658 and even the T758). I had the 658 and it seemed like old technology.
I am curious why you write this as they are both recent introductions by NAD and use exactly the same DAC. Is it due to the physical form of the unit and the touchscreen, or some difference in implementation?
@mgrif104 The M12/M22 combo I heard was with the Paradigm Persona 3F speaker and it was very impressive. Not the best electronics I have heard recently but very impressive nevertheless considering the price and features available.
I have heard a SimAudio 860A amp with a Lyndorf 2170 (as a preamp) and also an expensive Mark Levinson amp + preamp (
$20K each) that I thought were better. I did not like the amp on the Lyngdorf at all with the Persona but did like the Lyngdorf a lot as a preamp (did not enable Room Perfect DSP). However, the price difference is ridiculous and it was not THAT much better than the NAD combo. I would take the NAD over all of those listed above because of cost and I know I would be happy with the sound.
The very best amp I heard recently was the Luxman m900u amp (it is unfortunate for my wallet I heard it). If I get lucky and can afford that amp I am considering the Simaudio Moon 390. In the SoundStage review of the Luxman m900u the reviewer used a SimAudio preamp which was rated highly by the reviewer. The Moon 390 is supposed to have trickle down internals from that more expensive preamp and also some newer tech.
I will be able to do a home demo of the Persona 3F speakers and I have been told that I will not need DSP such as found in the Linn Selekt DSM (I mentioned in another thread). I will be able to see for myself. Things become easier to shop for without the need for DSP.
Based solely on reviews , another cheaper option over the Luxman m900u is the Coda #8 amp and the SimAudio 390. I have not heard this combo though the Coda is being described as having some of the same audio characteristics I found on the Luxman m900u.
In the next 6-8 months I will know if i can afford the Luxman. Until then I will try to demo the Coda and the Moon 390 and also see what new DAC | Streamer | Preamp tech comes down the pipeline.
I have a photo on the A'gon virtual systems of the small room I am putting the new system into.
While I have not heard the 390, I can vouch for the 780d originally with Mind1 and now upgraded to Mind2. Incredibly reliable streaming and, to me, sounds great. Given the 780D is a few years old now, I imagine the 390 may have reaped some of the benefits on the DAC side of the equation.
I’m in the same boat trying to find the best streamer/dac/preamp all in one units. My one other caveat is I need it to have wifi, I don’t have ethernet where my equipment is.
I’ve been using the Cambridge Audio CXNv2 and think it’s very good for the money. I’ve been A/B’ing between the CXNv2 and an Allo Digione --> Chord 2Qute. Both connected to a Schiit Aegir, the 2qute is run through a Schiit SYS for volume control.
The CXN has a fuller, warmer sound, deeper mids/bass, whereas the 2Qute is more transparent, accurate. I would say it’s a difference of the CXN sounding more like a live venue and the 2Qute sounds more like you’re listening in a recording studio. The CXN is physically much nicer, convenient, and has the nice display, my annoyance with it is the Cambridge Connect app is very basic. It runs fast and stable, but very lacking in features. Primarily there's no search option for stored music on my NAS, I can only manually browse folders to find what I need. But the really nice thing for me is it has built in Google Chromecast, so I can control everything via voice command if I'm just casually listening through google play.
The other options I’m thinking of demo’ing are a C658, Cambridge 851N, Sony HAPZ1ES, Marantz NA6006. All options that I could pickup for $1k or less in the used market.
I know, maybe I should've written "prefer" than "have to". Just for simplicity I don't want to worry about adding another access point, cabling, power outlets, etc..
Some new info on NAD. They have partnered with Bruno Putzeys new company. It won't be long before these new components from NAD with the new Class D modules come out.
@rhern213 You can utilize something along the lines of Iogear’s or TP-Link’s WiFi Ethernet adaptors (if your component has a LAN Port). This is a basic approach to meet your need for being able to run wireless to a component.
These are small factor boxes that will add a ’device’ present in the vicinity of your component, as well as a short cable. They also need to be powered via a wall wart.
You may also be able to do the same with a Range Extender plugged into a wall outlet, those that offer LAN out.
A more robust and stable solution is a Mesh WiFi Router.
In any case, you will be adding different levels of noise and RF, etc. to your gear and around the vicinity of your gear, should this be a concern.
I've recently taken ownership of a Moon 390 and I've been blown away at how good it sounds. I use the HT bypass mode to run my AV preprocessor in parallel. It's an extremely convenient product as it has a high quality preamp, streamer and DAC all built into one unit. The streamer can connect to Wifi on the 5Ghz spectrum so I've been able to stream 32-bit/384kHz hi res audio over wifi with out any dropouts at all. Streaming MQA is just 24-bit/48kHz so it doesn't put stress at all on Wifi as the Moon 390 decodes and unfolds the MQA to streams of up to 384kHz.
The Moon 390 has introduced warmth to my system while providing more detail at the same time. I've honestly never heard such realism in music reproduction, especially with a well recorded MQA track. (I suspect that a hi res track from Qobuz or other sources will sound very good as well.)
the teac nt-505 is closest thing that I can think of you wanting. im also wanting the same thing almost. they say it sounds warm an velvety. teac also makes a 10mhz dac generator that will make your music sound even more analog. the 10m is a game changer for any dac if the dac has 10mhz inputs. the nt-505 with the cg-10m should be up there with the best dacs. the 10m is a reference clock generator that will out perform dacs costing 100k. only thing will beat it that I know of is the auralic steaming dac g2 with there generator or the antelope 10m with there top of the line dac. both options are expensive an dacs dont get any better than that running with a 10m clock rhodium generator. hope this helps
"@audiotroy I only used the Marantz in conjunction with the PS Audio DAC since it needed a preamp to be most effective. The NAD runs straight into my amp. Power conditioning is from a PS Audio Quintessence and the power cord is a Pangea AC14XL Mk II that I recently picked up to test out. The power conditioner is plugged into the wall in a PS Audio Power Port outlet."
@audiotroy You obviously have a high regard for PS Audio. I am well aware of the quality of their DAC Sr. Why did you think you needed and what made you choose their Power conditioner and Audio Power Port? What were results that you heard after purchasing? I also have a Marantz Pre. Thanks
Firststoneguy, that is not from us, we do not have a high regard for PS Audio, we have had in the earlier Perfect wave dac and it was okay, and we tested their power conditioner and was not pleased with that one either compared with the Isotek and Running Springs PC we were using at the time.
It is our belief that a mature company shouldn't need to change their operating software willy nilly. Most companies with FPGA rarely ever change their code, as most engineers have throughly tested their designs and software. ' We prefer companies whose code and hardware are a 100% up-gradable if you compare an Aqua Hifi Dac you will see that every part of the dac is compartmentalized into a board, in some Aqua dacs you will see as many as 10 separate boards which allow for easy upgrading when future advances allow for improvement without having to gut 90% of the piece.
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