glubson, do you mean the Pee Wee Herman voices you hear are real? Im impressed!
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geoffkait, You must be correct. SONY Walkman cannot even vibrate. It never skips, but with a few New Dark Matter stickers, ESP or not, it does cook dinner. By the way, I saw similar stickers in some sticker book. They even glow in the dark. One had unicorn on it, but only in the dark. Have you ever thought of upgrading to VNDM (Very New Dark Matter)? Greenish glow nullifies any already non-existent vibration. It would be a hit. |
On a less business note, but more audio related, I noticed you sell one SONY D-F200 CD player with radio. Does low mass and assumed resistance to vibrations benefit the sound on AM radio, or is it just when playing CDs? Is there any radio-related circuitry inside that may interfere with CD playback? It is a very cramped quarters, it would be hard to isolate. |
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So, I do find the subject of coupling/decoupling gear of great interest. Between all the tremendous witticisms, there is some information that I am finding helpful, especially as I am trying to figure out how the whole thing works. If I understand this correctly, the "hardware" (Audio Gear) needs to be "connected" to something that will absorb any unwanted resonant frequencies present in the gear? And the "something" that is absorbing the unwanted resonances needs to be isolated from the vibrations in the "world" so there are no unwanted vibrations from the "world" that make their way into the gear? Do I have that sort of right? Thanks P |
boxer12, When I was writing that thing with unicorns I was, sort of, serious. I followed the logic. Green pen used to do some magic. These days, black stickers do some magic. Why not black stickers that glow in the right shade of green, but only when placed in the darkness of the CD player? Ok, it does not have to be unicorn, but how would you resist it? Not to mention that unicorn has smooth irregular shapes, so any possibility of standing waves, bouncing stray something, or whatever else may get mentioned on Audiogon, would be minimized. The idea is really not that much more bizarre than many we read about here. Still, I am afraid that not much that involves me would end up being a thing of beauty. Who knows, maybe with geoffkait’s imposing presence, it is possible. Otherwise, my business skills are dismal. I could not sell a sandwich to a starving billionaire. Whole venture with unicorns would probably collapse with less sales than NDM has now. |
pekri If I understand this correctly, the "hardware" (Audio Gear) needs to be "connected" to something that will absorb any unwanted resonant frequencies present in the gear? And the "something" that is absorbing the unwanted resonances needs to be isolated from the vibrations in the "world" so there are no unwanted vibrations from the "world" that make their way into the gear? Do I have that sort of right? >>>>Yes, and more to the point - all (repeat all) vibrations that affect the audio signal anywhere in the audio system are unwanted. This includes all electronics, internal speaker wiring, power cords and cables. You can think of vibrations like cockroaches. You don’t want any of them. There are no good cockroaches. Don’t coddle cockroaches. Kill them. 1. The very low frequency vibration coming up from the floor, including speaker mechanical feedback and seismic type vibration. 2. The mechanical vibrations produced by acoustic waves in the room when music is playing. 3. Vibrations produced by transformers, capacitors, motors such as turntable motors, CD transport mechanisms. What are the sources of external vibration? Footfall, wind, Earth crust motion, traffic, subways, trains, ocean waves on the shore, ceiling fans, local construction, Some unwanted consequences of vibration: 1. CDs fluttering during play and LPs and stylus vibrating excited by external forces. 2. CD laser assembly vibrating due to external forces. 3. Cables power cords and wires vibrating due to external forces. Thus, a complete vibration management system controls as much as possible the flow of vibration upwards from the floor and downwards fro the component. What is required is a very low natural frequency isolation system with efficient damping for the top plate and a path out of the entire system so that energy is not stored in the system. There are six (count em!) directions of motion that should be isolated but much can be done with a simple and low Fr vertical isolator. No matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more. |
michaelgreenaudio I see what you are saying about the LPs and CDs and immediately made my own listening judgement call as soon as Michael walked into his listening area. On a professional level it would be a disqualifier for me to take his critiquing of components and music seriously. I would classify Michael’s room more of a music collectors room than a listeners room. That’s not a slam on Michael, just a different part of the hobby than I am a part of. I will make this comment though, If I sat down and listened to both his system and your system (with exception of the body effect) I would bet that I would choose your system over Michael’s. >>>>Unlike Michael Green I have no such inhibitions about critiquing anyone’s system or ideas, etc., even someone in the industry. It’s nothing personal, though. But on the dodgy subject of having a lot of LPs or CDs in the room I’d like to stress that this issue is much deeper than it might appear. It’s really not really any kind of resonance issue, although there might be sine of that going on, too, what with the CD jewel boxes acting as resonant cavities, but the real reason why I suggest removing all LPs, all CDs, all books, all magazines, and all personal electronic devices from the room has to do with the general problem that all media and connections to global media creates for the listener. It’s a Peter Belt thing. Along the lines of Mind-Matter Interaction, for lack of a better term. It’s the subconscious mind interacting with the local environment. Thus, even if CDs were placed in paper sleeves instead of plastic jewel boxes the problem would remain. This is why I’m positive Michael Fremer does not and can not enjoy the glorious sound he should be enjoying with the $30,000 tonearm and the rest of his system. The superb, exquisitely detailed and dynamic sound is in his room, though. He just can’t hear it properly or completely because if all the interference. His brain 🧠 is like a receiver picking up interference. Can I even say this? Will I be banned? And I apologize if I’m scaring any newbies. |
Panzerholz. Delrin. These are the two relatively commonplace materials with very low resonance. Other materials are far behind. Note the words ’low resonance’. That is the property of absorbing vibration so as to not ring. Both panzerholz and delrin are costly, so you don’t see them used much. It is rather less costly to market the hell out of junk. Every material has its uses, but for a TT I mostly use panzerholz, as it has other properties of value, e.g. tensile strength. |
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Hi Glupson & Perkri You weren’t overlooked, I just wanted to see how far off track and topic things would get here before doing much more posting. You are both on target here "unwanted" vibrations. As Glupson said "audio is vibration" and according to the Fundamental Interactions he is correct, there is no such thing as non-motion here on Earth. You can’t logically say "kill all vibrations" on a moving planet and it make sense. The Earth doesn’t stop spinning just because someone on an audio forum says so. That’s a little on the crazy side of things. So here you have the audio signal, which is part language and part energy in motion. You have a legitimate change called volume. Volume is when you add energy to the signal. The energy itself is Vibratory. You can call it "put into motion" or "force" or several other names but Vibration covers the audio realm pretty well. Volume is an amplification of the vibration (audio signal) and when used all the Fundamental Interactions of physics also amplify and or interact. This is where the balancing act between interactions starts to play out in audio. When you increase Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustic energy the values of the new setting have to balance themselves out again. This is where you get either "true gain" or "distortion". True gain is an increase in the function of fundamental frequency and harmonics in balance (harmonic structure) that make up notes or band of notes. Distortion is when the fundamental frequency and support harmonics are out of balance. It can be too little vibratory structure or too much, either one is distortion. The fundamental interactions are what I call a "fair exchange" of energy. Whenever something in Earth’s energy realm goes out of balance the 4 Fundamental Interactions (forces) go into action to put the fundamentals and supportive harmonics back into tune. The shape of being in-tune is a sphere. Reason being is a sphere can give off and take on energy exchanges with a natural vibratory interaction. It’s like a 3d oscillation or pulse. Without interacting force the Earth along with every planet or star would crack apart and loose it’s pattern. Just like when something is out-of-tune it means the supportive energy is out of balance with the fundamental cycle. The cycle out of balance is then called "distorted" or incomplete in motion. MG |
Audio & sound are cool because they fall right in the range of physical being, meaning the cycles are low enough as to move and stimulate physical materials. All the physical parts in your audio system are vibratory. As soon as these parts are energized they are not only passing signal but they are passing that signal along with their own vibratory DNA. For example take 2 capacitors of the same spec from 2 different companies or designs and they will sound different from each other. Anything that has mass in your audio chain has it's own vibratory signature added to the sonic mix. Doesn't matter how great or small it is acting just like our planet "giving out and taking on info". Your audio signal will not be separated from nature because it is here on Earth and subject to Earth's physical laws of interaction. MG |
Michael, you’ve convinced glubson. That’s gotta count for something. The other fellow doesn’t appear to be quite so convinced. Maybe invite him over to TuneLand and work him over a little bit. See if he’ll come around. 🤕 By the way, the Four Fundamental Interactions support my position, not yours. Hel-loo! |
Now a little lab work, nothing too difficult. What I have done is take a simple audio receiver Sherwood rx4105 and put it in my system. After a week of constant play it’s time to see how it responds to both rubber and wood. The stock feet have been removed and the receiver was place on the rubber. The first thing that was heard is that the sound has darkened and some of the notes have become more clear but other notes have seem to have disappeared, dropping into the background of the stage. There are lots of other things to listen for but that’s a quick start. Now using harder wood "Ebony" there’s a noticeable jump in high frequencies and a lack of bottom end even though the mid bottom is tight. Compared to the rubber product the ebony is fatiguing after a short time grading on my ears. Back to the rubber, I can clearly hear the notes that are missing as compared to the ebony but the rolled off type sound is less fatiguing, at least at first. The more I listen to the rubber the more I’m discovering a lack of true dynamics and made aware of that rubbery sound that starts to haunt every recording played. Both materials have without a doubt entered into the DNA of the audio signal. Trying springs, cones and other shapes and materials I can hear the materiel itself mixing in (interacting, mingling) with the audio signal. Even putting the original feet back on I can clearly hear that anything under the receiver becomes part of the receivers sound. Comparing notes from as far back as the mid 80’s I see my notes are exactly the same, conclusions that no matter what goes underneath, on top of, on the sides of, or even touching there is absolutely a mingle taking place between signal and materials. Same is true with moving the same system from one room to the next or shipping the system to a different environment to another. The audio signal is part of the interactive fundamentals. I have done this same testing hundreds of times, maybe thousands, and have never been able to conclude that the audio signal fits outside of the scope of the forces interactions. Everything literally affects everything else. The "audio signal" is tunable. MG |
Wow. What a long thread. Like I mentioned, in part here is my vibration and isolation implementation: VPI feet on my turntable sitting on a 1 3/4 maple board. Vibrapods, of different models, depending on the weight, underneath my components. Gaia I isoacoustic feet under my Magico A3s. MyeStand brass points (spikes) and pads on my MyeStands for my Magnepans. (I didn’t want spikes like the stock spikes and pads that come with Magico A3s and I didn’t want APods because they are spikes too. I wanted more sturdy feet on the A3s because of their position in my room. I didn’t want them to be potentially have a spike knocked off its pad) |
geoffkait, michaelgreen did not convince me in any way you seem to be convinced he did. However, I give people credit when I think they are due. I cannot disagree with him more on many things, but some things he is right about, for all I know. Including that it is, to say it politely, silly to aim to annihilate all the vibrations. Hearing sounds is a little more than just some electrical signal in the wire. It really is. It is actually much more than that. Unfortunately, it takes more than "directionality", "only dead vibrations are good vibrations", and a few more cute quasi-deep statements to get even a superficial grasp of it. |
geoffkait, On which planet do these two statements, you wrote within a day or two, come together? "Yes, the Sony Walkman is not (rpt not) susceptible to vibration......…..Not to mention my 12 ounce system does not have a whole lot of mass and stuff hanging off it to even vibrate." "Some unwanted consequences of vibration:...…... 2. CD laser assembly vibrating due to external forces." |
Yes, glubson, those two statements appear to be contradictory. Emphasis on the word appear. One doesn’t have to look too hard to see a great many contradictions in the whole debate of whether tis better to let vibrations roam free and unfettered or to try to harness and constrain them. To vibrate or not to vibrate, that is the question: Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous vibration, Or to take arms against a sea of vibrations. And by opposing end them? |
michaelgreenaudio >>>>Well, I don’t think that’s any news. Not at all. Everybody and his brother knows we can change the sound by using different materials for footers. And by damping, isolating, coupling. But to get the results we’re hoping for we need the RIGHT MATERIALS. Otherwise we’re shooting blanks in the dark. I’ve already given the general roadmap for using cones of different materials, it’s the Hardness that’s the primary variable. I’ve also suggested a comprehensive plan of vibration management that includes competent isolation plus an effective means for evacuating vibration that resides on the TOP PLATE of the isolator. One thing in your tests that jumps out at me is your test with ebony which is p, as I’ve oft pointed out is highly resonant and actually interferes with the natural resonances of the component. I’ve done the tests, too. Besides ebony is directional, top to bottom and in the azimuthal direction. Ebony generally is useful as a sympathetic resonator ON TOP of components, speakers, Tube Traps, and operate to dissipate UNWANTED VIBRATIONS. When used as footers resonators reflect energy instead of allowing it to escape, It should also be pointed out that the SHUN MOOK Mpingo discs are much more powerful than stock ebony, being a combo of African rosewood and Gabon ebony, and containing a crystal inside, for increased resonance. AND they’ve been marked for directionality, so there's much less guesswork. It’s no wonder your results are inconclusive. Springs, as I’ve oft pointed out, must be matched to the load to get the proper BANG. Again, you apparently don’t get how springs work. Springs are an anti gravity device. You’ve been doing this testing how long? Thousands of times? It’s not how many. |
readers feel free to visit TuneLand http://tuneland.forumotion.com/ The audiophile forum that gives detailed info on this topic including pictures, diagrams and many active in-room systems with threads. You'll find TuneLand to have a ton less confusion for those of you who would like to read without the spins (we are troll free). We give a list of different types of wood and the long history of mechanical transfer. thank you for your emails! Michael Green |
geoffkait, Your last post appears to be worth thinking about. Emphasis on word "appears". Those two statements are not contradictory. They are so removed from reality that they are really not funny anymore. Have you ever gotten a chance to consider that there is no such thing as audio signal? Misnomers abound around here, but everybody and his brother knows that what most like to call audio signal is vibration. Even many sisters agree. |
geoffkait, "...of whether tis better to let vibrations roam free and unfettered or to try to harness and constrain them."I see that you are switching from annihilation of vibrations ("dead vibrations are only good vibrations", or whatever cutesy it was) to using them with certain control. Inconvenient news is that you are slightly behind. michaelgreen has been on that path first. Maybe you should go over to TuneLand for a little bit. I see you've come around. |
glupson geoffkait, your last post appears to be worth thinking about. Emphasis on word "appears". >>>>Emphasis on the word thinking. 😁 |
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Like Robert at Star Sound Michael Green believes that there is no such thing as isolation. I.e., you cannot prevent vibrations from coming up from the floor and interfering with the electrical signal in electronics. Furthermore, Michael believes that the electrical signal itself is vibrating so why bother trying to prevent external vibration from reaching it. I believe Robert at Star Sound used to say (before he and his trusty sidekick Tom fell off the face of the Earth), “There’s no such thing as absolute isolation.” Which sounds a little like a quote from Alien or Prometheus. I suppose he was trying to say since it can’t be absolute why even try. Or some such nonsense. But I digress. While it’s actually is true that even the very best isolation techniques do not block 100% of ALL vibrations, even reasonably good isolation techniques are extremely effective in blocking most of them. For a modest iso system with isolation in the vertical direction, the device will be at least 99% effective for frequencies of vibration above 20 Hz. And percentage blocked is 50% at 10 Hz. Follow? One irony of course is Michael promotes using springs. Apparently he did not get the memo that springs with mass on top is the very definition of an isolation device. But maybe I misunderstood. Maybe he’s placing springs on top of things. 😬 |
According to Wikipedia, and 'audio signal' is an analog or digital representation of sound. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_signal Loudspeakers take an electrical audio signal as the input, create a vibration, and produce the sounds you hear. Microphones do the opposite. So there are three things, sound, vibration, and signal, and two forms of signal, analog and digital. Oscilloscopes take an electrical audio signal as the input and produce the moving visual image that you see. |
Hi jburidan Yep, pretty simple stuff isn’t it, and this has been universally known and demonstrated for ever since we were all little kids taking our first science class in grade school. Why people attempt to create things in HEA that can’t be is very strange. Those of us who actually test (live with) these things don’t really care what words are used as long as they portray the event, and putting something underneath an audio component is clearly a transfer (interaction) of energy not isolating. BTW today I’m listening to springs under my components. These are isolating nothing, clearly mechanical interaction going on here. Springs are probably one of the greatest examples of being gravity responsive not anti-gravitational. Springs don't push against gravity, they act as a transfer cushion for the pull of gravity. MG |
Sorry, I was in a hurry to leave home so I misspelled ’an’ as ’and’ -- the post should read: According to Wikipedia, an ’audio signal’ is an analog or digital representation of sound. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_signal Loudspeakers take an electrical audio signal as the input, create a vibration, and produce the sounds you hear. Microphones do the opposite. So there are three things, sound, vibration, and signal, and two forms of signal, analog and digital. Oscilloscopes take an electrical audio signal as the input and produce the moving visual image that you see. |
In the last hour I have put slivers of wood, up to 1/4" thick on the tops and bottoms of the springs. Much more girth and impact to the notes. Drums and cymbals are taking on more 3d shapes and the tone of the mid highs are rolling across the cymbals then come to the end of the cymbal and rolls into the air. So to recap the springs on their own didn't do it with the other materials in the components. Then springs with the added tone from the slivers moves things a lot closer to real instruments sounds. A couple more hours and I will go LTR Tuning Blocks, but the springs and wood is very listenable. I can move the position of each spring to get a different tonal transfer. Pretty fun couple of days going back through these procedures again. Makes it fun to have a stereo to play with and hear the interaction of the entire space. I added a thin slice of rubber on the bottom of the slivers under the spring and the sound went instantly dark and rubbery. Tried it on top, same thing. Not something I am hunting for so the rubber again sits on the sidelines. I also briefly put back in one of the players I added Geoff's NDM to and it was disaster. I can best describe this as a stage filled with black holes. I quickly put back in the non-treated CDP and in about 3 to 4 minutes the stage came back nice and full. I think the NDM can sit off to the side for a while as well, not really sure I'm going to go back that direction for a couple of reasons, meaning a couple other types of material that I like better on the tray. However the experiment with the NDM was not a complete wash. That's for another topic perhaps but after some further experimenting is done. Ok, some more listening and I'll be back. MG |
All one has to do to see evidence of the ability of a well-designed spring system to provide true isolation is to watch on You Tube the videos Max Townshend (a real mechanical engineer, if you care about such matters ;-) has made to promote his Seismic Pod products. He attaches a surface mount accelerometer to the outside wall of the enclosure of a floor-standing loudspeaker, and assaults the speaker enclosure with various forms of vibration, both loudspeaker generated and floor borne, both with and without the Seismic Pods installed. Having seen the demonstration, the listener may then decide for him/herself whether or not he/she wants to prevent floor borne vibrations from reaching the speaker enclosure, and if he or she wants to evacuate driver-generated vibrations from the enclosure onto which they are mounted. |
In fact, steel springs don’t vibrate much st all when compressed any more than a tuning fork vibrates when you grab the prongs with your fingers. If you worried about the springs or anything ringing a little when you strike it with a small hammer just don’t strike it with a hammer while music is playing, you’ll be OK. The real problem arises when you attempt to damp springs. Only damp the top plate or the component. The springs need to be free to move, unrestrained, undamped. Most iso systems have too much damping and or too much friction. Besides, why is Michael suddenly concerned about springs vibrating? I was under the assumption he wanted vibration free to roam wherever their little hearts 💕 wanted to. |
Gee, I almost forgot. The mass-on-spring isolation is more effective for higher frequencies than for very low frequencies, as I got through explaining recently. So, even if springs ring a lot, which they don’t, those higher frequencies wouldn’t make it up through the iso system much at all. A bog standard iso system is at least 99.9% effective for frequencies about 30 Hz. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon 🧠 to see whatever frequencies ringing occurs at will not (rpt not) get through. Not to mention my Phase 2 for the comprehensive plan for dealing with vibration - the use use of effective damping on the top plate, to damp ANY residual vibration from any source. Anyone still not follow raise your hand. |
http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t467-the-vibratory-foundation Michael Green |
"Like Robert at Star Sound Michael Green believes that there is no such thing as isolation. I.e., you cannot prevent vibrations from coming up from the floor..."...and then in the next line... "While it’s actually is true that even the very best isolation techniques do not block 100% of ALL vibrations..."What we have here is universal agreement between both relevant, and one unsuspecting, parties. |
Most anything that isolates, connects at the same time. Springs included. Which of these properties will practically prevail may depend on execution (materials, shape, construction, something else) and it may not be generalized. There may be certain spring that isolates better than certain wood, but it may not be every spring and every wood combination. This is not even physics, it is slightly more than a tunnel vision approach. Kind of a view that many parents try to teach their preschoolers. |
