Hi Raul, how about a recent picture of your system? That picture is ancient. It must look quite different. I am sure many things have come and gone, along with equipment position, tweaks and room/fashion changes.
Thanks,
Bob |
Hi Raul, I look forward to seeing new pictures of your room. And I should take my own advice and update pictures of my own room. While not much has changed equipment wise, the room itself is a bit tidier. Also I will post a picture of the REW freq response. I have my room fairly well acoustically treated and have been able to obtain a good inroom response.
Bob |
Hi Raul, I just added an in room freq response from the Room EQ Wizard. This response with subs and mains, includes only the room acoustic treatment and the Marchand Bassis EQ for the sealed woofers. No other EQ. I will take some new pictures of my room this weekend (hopefully) and update the room pictures at that time.
Raul, do you have a response of your room that I can see?
Bob |
Hi Raul, You had mentioned that you would be interested in posting a picture of your in room freq response. You said in your last post "My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 60Hz:"
I started a thread, in the Speakers section called "In Room Response". Where you can post a picture of your measurement. Several people myself included have allready done so. It would be great to see yours! I am using the FREE program: Room EQ Wizard available on the Home Theater Shack website. I look forward to your contribution to the thread.
Bob |
Hello Raul, you said "Fortunatelly I have a great room ( I'm really lucky about. I appreciate that you stop to take wrong assumptions on my system. ) I add the subs for its whole advantages."
I started the thread in the speakers section "In Room Response", how about posting a room response of your system, it will show everyone just how low of a freq response you have in room and also you could post a waterfall graph which is always interesting.
Bob |
Raul, you said, "Bob, I whish I can to do it right now but I don't have the right tools to do it in the right way and for the other way"
Raul, you don't have any equipment to do this? Amazing! And you want to be my audio electronics engineer:)?
With apologies to Seinfeld...and you want to be my latex salesman?
And you said "no: seriously I'm right now with an in deep tests of our two tonearm prototypes and this stage on the tonearm design is very high time consuming, it is not only to compare each protoype against other tonearms but between those prototypes. This kind of work is not only between all those tonearms but with several differents cartridges!!!!!
And I am hoping you are not testing the tonearm on a system that you have no clue as to what it is doing. Because if you say the low bass is great with the new arm, how would you (and me) know? When you are not even reproducing low bass?
Also, I am not sure how you can say all of this about subwoofers when you don't even have any basic measurements.
Well, I do look forward to the day you can do this.
Bob |
Hi Raul, How do I know what I am hearing live is correct? Because it is live. How do you know what you are hearing is correct with a recording? Because it is reproduced faithfully. Without freq aberrations from either electronic equipment or the rooms influence. If there is a frequency deviation that is in your equipment or room it is there for every recording. This is incorrect, you must reproduce the recording as it is. If there is a deviation in the original room (recording) this is what you want to hear, but it is only for that particular recording. You do not want your playback/room to alter the original sound. Isn't this why you go for a great freq response in your phono preamp?
Bob |
Hi Raul, you said, "I'm not against those kind of measurements but according with your point maybe the Agon forums must dissapear because how can you believe what any one say/talk if they don't have measurements about?"
Raul, I never said that measurements were the be all, end all of fine music reproduction. I have never said that in any post. I have said that it is optiomal to get a good inroom response from your equipment and room which will allow you to hear all that your system is capable of, no more, no less. I believe that there are so many great pieces of equipment out there, that are very capable of fine music reproduction, but that few people are really hearing what their system is capable of. I just want you, myself and anyone reading this to be able to get the best that is possible out of their system, and not by spending more on speakers or equipment in a misguided effort to cure a non-existant problem ( their equipment is just fine ) as is mine and yours. I will not be replacing my Hagerman Trumpet phono stage nor my Acoustat sixes which, I have owned for 22 years. Why should I? Are they incabable, no. Are there better phono preamps and speakers, yes. Does it matter to me? No. I am not spending $$$$$ on new equipment. But I sure as hell would like to get the most out of what I have. That does include tweaking my equipment. I would like a new motor for my TNT, I would like to upgrade the pots on my Bassis etc and I also would like to hear what those changes bring. And that includes the room.
Bob
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Raul, you said, " unfortunatelly the main thread subject is not about bass!"
The title of the thread is "DO YOU THINK YOU NEED A SUBWOOFER?"
Is that a contradiction? If it is not about bass, what is it about? It sure as hell ain't about muffins!
Raul you said in one of your first posts in this thread;
" remember that we use subwoofers not only for a better and extended low bass but for a better midrange/midbass too."
"better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass ( quantity? : you choose it: volume/gain ) ). Now we can heard the " foundation " of the MUSIC ( and its harmonics )"
You also said, "Now you can really know how good ( or not ) is not only your audio system but any single audio item: cartridge/tonearm/cables/TT/preamp/amplifier/CD, and now you can detect any sound reproduction performance problems in those audio items and try to fixed/exchange: now and only now ( not before ) you can say " this is the best cartridge or tonearm or SUT ,etc.. " that I ever heard."
I am pretty sure that is exactly what I said just a couple of posts ago, "And I am hoping you are not testing the tonearm on a system that you have no clue as to what it is doing. Because if you say the low bass is great with the new arm, how would you (and me) know? When you are not even reproducing low bass?"
So Raul What is this post about?
Bob |
Hi Raul, I have taken this to my thread "In room response".
Please read and I look forward to your response. Here is the link for the photo in "my systems", http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1209483707.jpg
I look forward to discussing this in my forum.
Bob |
Hi Raul, since you did not want to play in my thread "In room response", I am back. First off I have nothing against you. Just the bull--it you keep expounding. You are contradictory, not just with me and others who post here, but with yourself (perhaps the biggest sin. Next to lying to yourself?), in almost all of your posts and I find it offensive. Especially when you are unable to verify or answer the most simple, albeit hard, questions. This thread "do you need a subwoofer",by itself, is full of it.
You say, "My audio/sound reproduction priorities are: neutral and natural tonal balance/pitch, Accuracy ( low distortion, low noise, no colorations, no cliping, grain free, liniarity, no compression, etc...), timbre, dynamic, focus and soundstage . My whole audio system target is to be nearest to the recording!!!"
"My audio/electronics priority is: accuracy/synergy/confidence/constant/."
Tell me Raul, How do you have any of those priorities when your in room freq response is +- 20db? Accuracy, how is that accurate? Natural tonal balance and pitch, how does one have accurate pitch and a natural tonal balance when related freq are +- 20db? No cororation, isn't a plus 15db or minus 20 db freq response a coloration?
Dynamics, you can't have maximum dynamics when you have dropouts of -5 to -20 db across the sound spectrum and +50 to +20db peaks limiting your volume levels.
Raul, you know for a fact that a resonably good, or better yet, a great freq response is one of the most important properties for audio reproduction. One of the basic tenets of audio reproduction is a response of 20-20,000hz. Thats why you do it in your preamp, thats why you want full range speakers or subs and super tweeters, because it does not matter where the error takes place the result is the same. One of the reasons why, if I were to buy your $12,800 preamp, I would pay for a +-001% freq response. Where there are changes in freq response you do one of two things. In a dip you loose detail, decay, dynamics, and the ability to get pitch and a "natural sound" amongst other things.
Where there are peaks you obscure detail by overpowering other freq and it makes the music sound "too loud" amongs other things.
Combine these two problems and and you can hear why it is so important and it does not matter where the comes from! The effect is still the same.
Another problem, of modal ringing, needs to be addressed. And there is only one way to obtain this, and it aint frilly curtains and doilies. You have to stop the low freq reverb that obscures music and imaging.
.
An in room response of 20-20,000hz response is preferable, within reason +-2.5db (and thats debatable) along with a subjective in room response that is pleasurable to the ear. And please please don't hang me with a numbers game.
Also the importance of modal ringing is not to be underestemated. This must be obtained at a certain volume level if it is to approach anything like a real "audiophile" level of dynamics and realism. Those are two goals that are hardly unreasonable.
So, how do you have all of these important priorities?
The answer is you don't. You cannot have those priorities in a room with pretty curtains, doilies and a pure wool virgin rug. It ain't happening and untill people like yourself stop fostering this false info and admit the truth, you and others will not be even close to any accurate reproduction. You said, "thanks God I have a good room" "I am really lucky about", well you better be thanking God or some virgin saint of acoustics. And luck? I am pretty sure that as a scientist you really don't believe that luck has something to do with room acoustics, and its effect on audio reproduction, because the acoustics for your room are no different than any other room. Now you can continue to foster this bull that you have a great room and an accurate system to others but I for one don't believe anything you say. An untreated room is a disaster pure and simple! And yours is untreated.. so guess what? It is a disaster. Now you may treat the room up to a point that is good for you, with frilly curtains and sofas in front of your speakers but untill you admit the reality you will never progress.
Why is this such a "hard" subject? I don't know, but my guess is that you really dont want to see the Emperor Wears No Clothes. It will force you to admit certain truths that you find disturbing and against your belief system and dogmas. And it will reveal the hard cold fact that any system in an untreated room is a mess, which will be enable you to continue to foster overpriced equipment to an unsuspecting public.
What do I find all of this so disturbing? It is that your desires (in you stated goals) are exactly the same as mine! Why do we find it so hard to come to a meeting point?
In this thread you veered off course to save face, make contradictions and false claims even when others are agreeing with you. I am sure IMD is a problem, but please show me the problem and then reveal to me the answer, how do I lower IMD? How low do I need to go? How do I measure this? Or do I need your calibrated golden ears?
Raul, why do you find it so hard to answer my questions? Are they not relevent? Do they reveal too much that you are uncomfortable with? You are a manufacturer of very expensive equipment, do you not want me to believe that you have nothing but the best? Do you not want me to believe that when you test certain equipment, worlds best tonearm and 25 phono cartridges etc.. that you system is so inaccurate that it is useless. Would it not let the cat out of the bag to reveal that you system can not sound even anything like accurate when you have frequency deviations of plus/minus30db?
I say to you, lets start over with some meaningful dialog. And while we can continue to agree to disagree we can also be truthful with ourselves and others, in that way we can progress toward our quest.
I am sorry if you really did not know any of this, and really are ignorant of room acoustics and their effects. If that is the case you really need to do some searching.
Bob |
Hi Dgob, I too believe, that the front end components are very important, you can't have "good" sound without them. The problem is audios dirty little secret and it inability to admit that without great in room response you cannot get even remotely close to great sound. And it is continually perpetuated through statements like "I Have a great room" when no acoustic treatment is applied.
The difference between a live venue and a "reproduced" venue is that the live venue sound only alters the sound at that theater, move to another theatre and the sound changes. At home, the recordings take on the colorations of the room and every recording is affected equally. Worse yet is comb filtering and decay times, treat the room properly and all of these proplems are decreased, and yes, then you are finally able to "listen to the music". If you remove these distortions then you are truly hearing the recordings and your equipment for what they are, and therefore accuracy (at least as accurate as your system allows) is obtained.
Bob |
Hi Raul, I am sorry ,sorry for the things I said to you. Since I said that truth is most important, I had a realisation why I am so "mad " at you, not Raul the man, but Rauls unsubstantial postings.
It started when I scrimped and saved to upgrade from my Lehman black cube phono preamp to a Hagerman Trumpet. I all ready owned a Shelter 901 MC cartridge, so I needed a step up. The Bent MU was my choice. At the time it was a popular combination and everything seemed right.
I recieved the units and started listening, playing with the resistors for impedance matching and enjoying the units.
I came across your post on why step ups are so bad and that in no way can you ever get good music from them. You said never will, no way. I read it and started thinking, well this comes from a man with much experience. So I started listening to what you described, thought about buying an active preamp. I never did buy the active preamp and perservered and soon forgot you negative comments about step up transformers and started to enjoy my system. Never did hear the problems you associated with them, the problems could still be there and perhaps some day I will have an active preamp and enjoy it as well. But there I was holding these black and chrome beauties, and Raul was pissing on my parade.
I then started noticing your other posts s.s. vs tube phono preamps, who needs moving coil when moving magnet is best, two subs vs one (at least this one I had covered with two subs), etc... never offering real ways to obtain good sound just negative critisim and negating whole topographies, that were not your way. And how with your test measurement ears, that I did not obviously posess, that I would never get great sound.
I started playing with the real problem of room acoustics. And came to realise it was not me, nor my lack of ability to buy multi thousand dollar equipment that was the problem. How could I not be happy with a $3,000 phono stage? Hey, that is multi thousand dollar! Are Jim Hagerman or John Chapman such idiots and that only Raul knows the true way. As i came to the realisation that without proper room acoustics you ain't hearing anywhere near what your equipment is close to being capable of. I realised what you are hearing and thought, poor Raul, no wonder he is so misguided.
So Raul, I believe that perhaps we both could learn something from this. I could be kinder and gentler in some of my posts and perhaps you could... well I think thats up for you to decide.
The good news is that I still have the Bent step ups and they do everything they should, they are real and the are spectacular.
The bad news is you still have a bad sounding room. There I go again... but really I am sorry and please accept my apologies
Have a good life, amigo.
Bob |
