I really hadn't been watching my Sammy that much (maybe 2 hrs/day average) since I purchased it. The guy who is going to do the ISF calibration instructed me to get at least 75 hours on the lamp. The more the merrier. I've been running, since I got back from Florida, the set 12 hours a day. After 60+ hours, I can already see a color change: for the good. After another 60 hours, and the ISF calibration, next Saturday, I'll give you the scoop. I'm having fun with this purchase...
DLP vs Plasma/LCD
I was just about ready to plunk down $4k for a Panasonic 42" plasma. I was at my brother's tonight watching the Olympics on his 42" Pioneer plasma (HD transmission,) when he tells me that I should go with a DLP for my bedroom, rather than the plasma. He claims the picture is much better and they cost less. I wasn't even considering a DLP because I didn't think it would fit in my bedroom. (being to deep) He says they make some, now, that are only a few inches deeper/wider than a plasma. Any takers? Is the DLP the way to go? If so, can anyone recommend one with killer picture quality, and relatively thin? thanks in advance. warren
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I chose to go forward projector, and here is why: 1) The DLP Sanyo Z2 is an awesome bargain at $1300. It projects a picture that is better than anything I have seen at Good Guys. It handles HD with stunning realism. There is no screen door effect. 2) The Liteon DVD player ($135) is another stunning bargain. The colors are natural, and never overplayed. contrast is great. 3) I can have any size screen I want, I have settled for an 80" diagonal Da-lite Theater Lite ($240). The picture looks the same from every seating angle, and is it big in my 17' by 21' room. 4) Sound is provided by my evolved stereo system. Apogee Scintillas float the music from sub level to beyond. H2O Signatures power the 1 ohm speakers like no other can. 5) when I want to listen to music, I just collapse the screen. There is no unsightly giant box. Side note: The Sanyo sits underneath the coffee table, on a shelf. It is 9' away from the screen. |
I was looking at the samsung DLP's in the store yesterday and I saw something that disturbed me. The bright white colors were getting "computer rendered" (for lack of a better term). This was the first time I had seen this, but it was happenning on all 3 of the samsungs and not on the other DLP's. Has anyone seen this? Could they have had the settings cranked up too high? Looking for some feedback because this threw me for a loop. |
Toss in one more vote for the Sony 50" DLP. For under 3k I got a great looking screen that weighs less than 100 pounds and provides plenty of visual impact for my small theater. The plasmas are sexy as all get out - but the 5k difference in price I used to buy an Esoteric DV-50 to feed my bargain DLP - and I couldn't be happier. |
I had a professional video installer do the whole nine. We're talking DLP, stand, DVD, ICs, speakers, and amp. The price for the Samsung was $3200. I'm sure you can get it for less at Best Buy, but I was willing to pay a tad more to shift the responsiblity for proper hookup, etc. on someone other than myself. I'm a bit of a doofus with the oodles of ICs, color adjustments, DVD calibrations and all that crap. 'twas worth it, however. After calibration and power conditioner, I should be at nirvana. It seems like that, now. peace, warren |
Emil, that Audio Magic will happen, but with Christmas and dropping some big $$, I may have to wait awhile. Maybe a month...lol...Hopefully I'll find a used one on the 'gon, but that usually takes forever. I'm grooving and am looking forward to the ISF calibration next month. I'll keep ya posted.... remember those Thiel 1.5s way back when? whattayaknow... |
Installed Tuesday and have been totally enjoying the size, color, clarity, and sound of this new baby. Yesterday (Friday) cable vision comes over to install the HD box. Now I'm freaking, the you know what, out. Wow, all 46" top to bottom of the screen filled with a picture I can't believe. Day and night: regular TV compared to HD. Very happy indeed, and my lamp isn't burned in yet, nor is the set calibrated. Thanks again for your video feedback. It has led me to where I am. And I'm THERE!! peace, warren |
Well, I finally got this new baby installed, yesterday. This is the deal: Samsung HLP-4674 46" with matching Samsung stand Denon DVD-2910 Progressive w/HDMI and SACD Liberty Z Series HDMI interconnects (all ics, as well=liberty Z Series) Nad 320 (forgot the actual letters, BSE or something) integrated amp Definitive Technology Speakers 7004 model on Audiopoints- The picture and the sound do it for me. I have a large bedroom and was able to make the corner a little home theatre. Being that I'm 8 feet (could get 12 feet away if needed) from the tv- the wow factor is oooolala with a 46 incher. The guys who installed the system adjusted the brightness, color and whole nine. It was great right out of the box. Watching last night, there's tweaking to be done, but after looking at the instruction manual I flipped. I'm having the Sammy ISF calibrated next month, after I have the prerequisite 80-100 hours on the lamp. Got my appointment in, already. I can easily live with the colors 'til the calibration. After the calibration? Audio Magic power conditioner, for sure. Many have told me, power conditioning makes a significant difference in the picture. I certainly know what it does for the sound. Cable vision coming Friday to do the HD box thing. Will keep you posted. thanks for the help. peace, warren |
For calibration, here is the Imaging Science Foundation (IMF) site. |
I've made arrangements to have the newest Samsung DLP 46" installed in a couple of weeks. I have been advised, by many, to have it professionally calibrated. The AV outfit doing the installation did not recommend, at first, the calibration, but upon my suggesting it, they said it is "the way to go." I see "calibration" comes up frequently. Please give me the scoop as to what this is, what it entails, and if it is worth the $$. Thanks again. warren |
All the various technologies have come a long way in recent years. I've seen the latest generation of Fujitsu plasmas, and they look pretty good. Motion artifacs and mosquito noise are much less obvious than prior generations. But, I personally like a big image, and when you sit within 6-7' of a plasma, you can see its pixel structure. None of the plasmas I've looked at have cured the over-emphasis of green (actually yellow green) that gives grass an almost flourescent look. I also don't like having to view everything in fat mode to avoid burn-in problems. I have a single-chip DLP RPTV. While I see the rainbows, they don't bother me that much. While the fill factor is much higher than plasmas, the picture is not as smooth as I would like it to be. Also, even when calibrated many sets have odd, unnatural colors and the gray scale does not seem to go smoothly from black to white (same problem with plasmas). At CEDIA, I saw InFocus' 7" deep, hang-on-the-wall 60" DLP. Not a bad picture -- no big problems with focus at the edge that I had expected to see. I understand InFocus is also making the same set for RCA. I heard that Sharp is making a 45" LCD panel. That is promising. At smaller sizes, I like the picture on Sharps and Toshibas. Colors are quite nice with LCDs and the picture is smooth. While black level has improved recently, LCDs have a long way to go when it comes to motion artifacts -- they just respond to slowly to fast changing images. On a big, 45" screen, that could be a real problem. Finally, I come to my next set. I saw Sony's version of a LCOS RPTV which uses three 1920x1080 chips (same SXRD chip as in the $30,000 Qualia front projector). This is the best RPTV picture I've ever seen, by a substantial margin. While the Sony demo at CEDIA utilized some dark scenes (Spiderman trailer), it was not easy to tell whether the black level and contrast really was as good as it looked, or whether they monkeyed with the gamma curve and some detail in the shadows were lost. Sony says the set will sell for $10,000 -- about the same as a premium large screen plasma. |
The future {and its the near future} is 1080p. ESPN is already announcing it will broadcast in 1080p, Sony is scrambling to build 1080p camera's , 1080p will be the ultimate. Samsung is building them, Hitachi's new Plasmas {Director Series} has a feature call Virtual 1080p, look for 1080p to take off. |
I recently got a chance to compare various displays that use LCD, DLP, and D-ILA. All three technologies deliver a great picture, but of the three technologies I saw I prefered DLP. But not all DLP sets are created equal. Of the various sets that I compared, the best image I saw came from a Samsung DLP using an HD 2+ chip. The images were jaw dropping. And like Darrylhifi mentioned, Samsung is coming out with a 1080p set really soon (the first 1080p set that I'm aware of). It looks like Samsung is really onto something here, they seem to be genuinely concerned about great picture quality. And for me that's the most imortant thing. |
you can pick up a 5o inch Pioneer plasma for much less than 5 g's. check the specials over at avsforum.com. I have the 43 inch high def. model and the picture is great. I have compared RPTV, DLP, LCD, CRT and the plasma was overall the best....my point is that MSRP for my model was 8990 which I picked up for about 1/3rd of that.....look around if you like the picture. I did not like the artifacts with the DLP including the HD 2+ chip. I haven't seen the DILA's rear projection yet though.....I did have a DILA front projector and prefer plasma if it is big enough for you....43 inch works well from 10 feet or less.... |
Jer, I took the 8,000 hours from my memory of researching/discussing the HLN437W last summer. That's no longer a current model so I can't find a link that shows that now. Take it FWIW I guess. Samsung's current DLP product brochure states, "The bulb will deliver more than 5,000 hours of operation." http://www.samsungusa.com/pdf/DLP_Brochure.pdf Samsungparts.com sells the replacement bulb unit for my set for $199. |
Talking about the life of the bulb, my old model Panasonic plasma has a half life of 30,000 hours. It means that the luminence (contrast ratio) will be reduced to approximately half after that number of hours. Assuming I watch 8 hours of TV per day and 365 days per year, it would take 10 years to get to half life. Of couse, there will be some weekends that I'll stay home and not stay home. I think that I'be ready for a new TV set after 10 years. Lets assume that the actual half life is only half of the claim, that will 5 years for me. I think that I would love to get a new one by then. The old one can be moved into the bedroom for another good few years. Usually, I find that owners buy new TVs to replace the old ones even when the current units work fine. It just that they do not have the latest bells and whistles. Upgrading is a scary disease that many of us A'gon members have. The current model of Panasonic plasma and the upcoming 7 series or the Onyx to be released in Oct claim to have 60,000 hours of half life. If I were to have that and watch about 8 hours of TV per day for 365 consecutive days in a year, it would take ~ 20 years. If the claim is only 50% effective, the new number would be ~ 10 years. By then, you most of could move the old units into the bedrooms to get few more good years of use. When people talk about half life, they do often not do the math, and many prefer to wait for better models to come out. Now that I have presented the math, we all can go buy plasma or DLP now. ;>) |
Dougdeacon wrote "The estimated bulb life in Sammy DLP's is 8,000 hours, not 1,000 or 5,000. Where did you see those numbers?" I got those numbers from internet research and from different forum feedback. That's why I listed such a wide range. However, I have never seen the estimation above 5000 hours. It would be very encouraging to see specs from actual bulb makers rating the lamps at 8000 hours. |
Jer, The estimated bulb life in Sammy DLP's is 8,000 hours, not 1,000 or 5,000. Where did you see those numbers? $300 every 3-4 years is easier to budget for than risking having to replace an entire plasma due to burn in or steadily diminishing luminance. IMO of course. The small # of early bulb failures I've heard about were all replaced under warranty. I've followed the Samsung DLP's on avsforum since the beta test days in early 2002, and bought one from the first shipload that arrived after the dock strike that summer. 2,500 hours and going strong. Now if someone could just make a good universal player with DVI output... |
It is actually; Plasma vs Flat Panel LCD vs Rear Projection LCD vs Rear Projection DLP I think it all depends on where you going to put it and the type of use. I'm considering 70" Rear projection LCD or DLP for my movie/music room, and 46" Plasma for my family room. Flat panel LCD is limited in size right now - less than 37"? and expecsive, so it may be suitable for bedroom or library etc... Picture quality and characteristics seems to be similar for Rear Projection LCD and Rear Projection DLP. Kr4 and Jer mentioned replacing burbs... I know there's buring bulb issue with plasma but DLP? |
Jer, You made a good point here. I doubt the price of the bulb will come down much. It is like the ink of an ink jet printer. It has not come down since I bought my first ink jet 10 years ago. This is a hidden cost to consumer and recurring revenue to the manufacturer. My guess is the DLP set will come down in price but the bulb will probably stay at the same level. |
I am surprised no one has mentioned that a DLP TV will require replacement lamps costing $250 to $400. The life expectancy of these bulbs is estimated between 1000-5000 hours, so you may be replacing these every or every other year. There is also forum discussion of early burnout of the original bulbs after the purchase. The price for the bulbs may come down, but there will be an ongoing expense beyond the initial purchase. I am glad I do not need to replace a TV right now (knock on wood) as it would probably be a DLP considering the cost vs. value of the different formats. |
The 42" commercial Panasonic seems the consensus favorite of the AVSforum denizens. However, Sony, NEC, Hitachi and Pioneer have growing support. The problem is that there is no easy way to see any of them set up optimally and certainly no easy way to see all of them set up optimally in the same place with the same lighting conditions as at home. I went with the 50" Fujitsu. Kal |
Kal, after reading the disparity of opinions and doing the avsforum route, I've come to your conclusion, as well. Especially considering my limited viewing pattern related to plasma screen life span. Now which 42" plasma? From an earlier post, serveral months ago, it seems that the Panny HD (forgot the model number) was a popular contender. I'm right back where I started, but I do appreciate the feedback. peace, warren |
Here's my 2cents about the relative drawbacks: 1. DirectView CRT or RP, of any sort, are too bulky and get the way of the audio. 2. Large screen LCD (>42") is too expensive. 3. FP requires the room to be dimmed for even casual viewing. 4. Plasma is expensive and has a limited life (although I am not concerned about leakage). However, the life span with my general usage pattern will excede my needs and the unit will be obsolete before it fails (a statistical projection, not a guarantee). Went with the plasma. Very happy audiophile. Kal |
I'd just like to throw in my two cents. I'm choosing to go with the LCD technology (in about a year from now). Here are a few reasons why: 1. LCD is a very proven technology that has been perfected 2. DLP has way too many moving parts (millions of little mirrors and colorwheel) = lots of potential problems 3. Plasma is too expensive and they haven't figured out how to stop the actual gas from leaking IMHO, Mike |
The current generation of HD2, HD3, and HD2+ DLP chips are all 720p native resolution. The xHD3 is 1080p native resolution. The xHD3 includes all of the performance enhancements that went into the prior three generations. I would expect good contrast ratio, little to no rainbow effect, etc. But, the proof is in the pudding. Few people have had the chance to see the 90 series, mostly at trade shows. We'll know in a couple months. The 6190 is rumoured to be "in production" now. I can't believe that other mfg's are too far behind samsung with rolling out xHD3 products, but I haven't heard anything juicy yet. Center channels: Another advantage of "table top" digital sets over CRT RPTV is that even large center channels can be accomadated in the cabinet beneath them. Maybe not the matching cabinet from the mfg, but certainly in your own custom rack. The Dunlavy HRCC being the epitome of "placement concerns". Many CRT sets didn't have a flat top, and they certainly weren't going to hold up the likes of the Dunlavy center. To make it worse, the lower cabinet sections of CRT RPTV's are generally smaller than the HRCC, which would require elevating the set. |
Thanks to merge03 and bruce. My wonderful Mitsubishi 36' console (deep top for huge center and room for lots of cds) has died . I hate to lose the beautiful honey oak furniture. Merge, I assume the new TI chip is supposed to be a jump from the current one in the HLP85 series . Would you elaborate ? I might can wait a month or so and even get a closeout price on the 85 if not willing to pay $6k for the new ones. What do audiophile do with obsolete (Prologic rec. etc. and heavy tvs)equipment |
Obrown, The current new Samsung DLP RPTV's are based on the HD2+ chips. In a month or three, the HL-P6190 (aka 90 series) will be out, based on the xHD3 chips (around $6000+). Unfortuneately, Samsung is charging more money for these sets (as is their right, and I respect that). Bruce, you are correct, viewing preferences, viewing realities and other criteria make DLP (and others) an excellent choice for many people. However, under the correct conditions (dark room, narrow viewing angle, proper calibration, good source) no current television based display technology (note that front projection is not included here) comes close to the performance of the CRT based systems. I agree that CRT systems have many issues, restrictions and limitations. But given the limited circumstances for which they are intended, they are unrivaled in peformance, and cost. True, few people are willing to tolerate their size, weight (190 lbs for a 34" 16:9), narrow viewing angle (RPTV), low light output (RPTV), calibration requirements (and cost), convergence issues ("don't bump the rptv"), and slow performance fade. Hence the wonderful world of DLP and LCD which we are all buying at a price/performance premium. I agree with all you say, except to say that CRT displays, based purely on performance, are still the best. But they come with a whole list of gotcha's. |
I agree that a CRT based RPTV is a better value than the same sized screen DLP RPTV, and understand some people prefer a CRT based picture, but I am one who much prefers a DLP based RPTV. To me, again my opinion, the DLP set is sharper than any CRT set I have seen. The new HLP Samsung sets are very sharp but also smoother at the same time. You don't have to stretch the input signal and watch bloated images. Horizontal viewing angle is much better. Sets are much lighter in weight. They can benefit from a digital image feed; e.g., 720p over DVI/HDMI. the image is brighter. You can watch them in the daytime in a room with windows and sunlight. At night, you can watch them with a soft background light on rather than in a blackened room. Not trying to say this is the answer, but shwoing that difffereent people have different priorities and preferences. You should do compartive viewing. Bruce |