Bobf, I'll take it that you're a glass half empty kind of guy as opposed to a glass half full, since you chose to focus on the 'entry level' part of my 'entry into high end' comment. Just remember, it's your choice to take offense, since no offense was intended.
If you truely feel that the DK is the best that high end has to offer, you are very fortunate, as it will save you a lot of money. So rejoice, and enjoy the music.
84audio and Johnrob, congrats on your informative posts. They are an act of class from DK users. Perhaps if Audiogon is exposed to more knowledgable and experienced DK owners such as yourselves, DK's reputation can be revived. There is no doubt that LSA is more of a class act than DK was, so there is always hope.
It makes sense that BAT offers a hybrid integrated since they design both solid state and tube preamps and amps. Blue Circle and Unison Research have hybrid integrateds too. I'm still surprised there aren't more.
Maybe it's because the decision to offer tube or solid state components takes a fundamentally different mindset from the standpoint of taste and preference. Maybe it's because the designers behind components like 47 Labs, Sun Audio, Channel Island Audio, Audio Mirror, Manley, deHavilland, Rogue Audio, First Sound, etc. build pieces that will present music the way THEY would want to hear it and that a hybrid design to them lacks the purity or compromises each extreme. I don't know, I'm just a ramblin'...man!
Hi Jmcgrogam2, What are you kidding?DK sounds like entry level.This thing put my Ml Ref and Plinius 100mk-3 to shame in a misical and natural way.Then again maybe they were just mid-fi.Your statement is one of a pompous person.I don't say DK is the best but what exactly is?It's all about opinions and tastes but it doesn't have to be nasty.Have fun with your ultra high end equipment.Regards,Bob
Actually, I'm surprised more companies don't utilize a similar approach to DK's of combining a tube preamp section with high powered solid state output. I have enjoyed this combo with different separates for many years.
I'm sure that most would agree that both subjectivity and passion play a large role of this hobby - just review the tube versus solid state debates on Agon as an example. The DK issue has, unfortunately, fallen into the middle one of these debates, with both sides defending their point of view. Some DK users have gone over-the-top with their enthusiasm, to which others have responded in similar fashion. Both sides have used "ad hominine" type arguments (e.g., he is a newbee or his amp company has gone out of business) which provide no useful information, but is interesting to observe.
DK has been criticized for over-the-top advertisement and has been accused of shill advertising. Advertisement for a large number of high end components is also over-the-top, just look at any issues of Stereophile or Hi Fi +. Is there a different standard for DK? Also, while we may suspect Daniel K of shill advertisement (an associate of a person selling goods or services, who pretends no association to the seller and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer), there is absolutely no evidence the Larry Staples of doing so, as some have hinted at.
I have always selected components based on how they sound to me - not from a review and not from Agon comments. However, reviews and Agon comments can lead me to listen to a product or possibly avoid listening. Based on the Stereophile review, I might not have listened to the DK. My take on the review is that it is luke warm and somewhat self-contradictory (e.g. the less expensive Creek sounds better at some things, but the DK is comparable to $7K separates). However, for my room, musical tastes, and system, I did not agree with the less positive comments of the review.
Paired with Totem Forests, I have enjoyed the DK MkII amp for over a year, and I have no intention of selling or changing amps. My musical tastes tend to be mostly Jazz, classical (more single instruments or quartets rather than symphony), and female vocalists, although eclectic is probably the best description. I compared the DK amp to a number of similarly priced amps and selected the DK based on my tastes. Specifically, I like the sound-stage, power, and imagery of the DK. I also enjoy the emotional conveyance produced by the amp. The sound of the amp is a little warmish, and it has a tube feel, which might not be enjoyed by those who like SS amps. These are subjective things, but music is a subjective experience. BTW, I found a large positive change from changing tubes, with my favorites being the CCA and early 60's Mullard. I have not had a left - right issue. IMHO, the DK MkII is a good amp for the money. I think I'll go home and listen to some music.
The good or bad news, depending on your perspective, is that the journey never ends. Things change in time, and today's great product may be tomorrow's above average gear. I've been seriously "updating" my system for the last 20 years, and have been enjoying both the music and the chase. Again, I believe LSA will be a player in the industry for some time to come, and that many experienced audiophiles will be happy with these products, but time and sales will tell the story. I'm not married to DK. Nothing stays the same, and LSA, like every other company, will have to keep improving to stay competitive.
I also agree that it is pointless to bash another person's equipment. My system's sound is not going to change no matter how much I ridicule somebody elses choices. Discovery is part of the fun, and listening to different gear is the best way to learn.
Folks like Jimmy Olsen, Emerawski, and Audioari1 are the reason that DK has such a bad reputation here on AudiogoN. That is if indeed they are different people and not one.
84audio makes valid DK points with class, as does LSA, though I don't think Larry should participate here.
It's the pro DK 'pushers', who for the most part are newer members, declaring DK is king and bashing the likes of Cary and Electrocompaniet products, that show no class and really pull DK down in the mud. As I tell my children, speaking ill of another person does not make you a better person.
I haven't heard the latest DK designs. I did hear the mk II version after all the hype last year, and felt it represented a solid value at it's price point. I didn't buy one, and it didn't make me want to run out and hear a mk III or Signature (I couldn't if I wanted to, as my local DK dealer has dropped the line in favor of Forbidden City), but it is a decent amp and a good entry into the high end for beginners. It's a shame that so many get caught up in declaring it the greatest invention since the wheel. From my experiences last year, I found that most DK pushers had little experience with expensive gear, as the DK was all they could afford. Nothing wrong with that, I'm not a snob, but show a little class when you enter into the high end please. It's a good value, but not the best deal in audio. Welcome to high end audio, enjoy yourself, hang around, you may find out, as other former DK owners have, that you have a nice start to a journey, you are not at the end though.
Toyota's are wonderful vehicle's, but lets not bash Ferrari's, Rolls Royce's, and McLaren's just to defend how wonderful a Toyota is.
A. Look at their history...they...NOT the reviewers were the original touters.
B. Go to their website and read up on the X-Dream...you know...the speaker that we have heard about for years yet it hasn't materialized as far as I am aware.
C. Larry...even though some time ago he admitted in the forum that it probably wasn't the best thing for him to come in here and puff out his chest does it ONCE AGAIN....not to mention...he ONLY takes the vague touchy feely words out of the review. C'mon Larry....why don't you post the Stereophile Comparison section.
I have no need at all to bash DK...but if somebody is gonna put himself...or his product on a self-proclaimed pedestal...then they shouldn't be surprised when somebody comes to challenge it.
now...lets tally up the pro vs anti DK camp...or should I say anti DK marketing tactics.
How many Anti's are involved in the Audio Industry...i.e. Sales
How Many Pro's are stereo salesmen?...and how many are selling for LSA?
Drubin, No doubt that Reina likes Creek, and that he said some nice things about DK. We might disagree about the review being "luke warm at best, but it certainly isn't as positive as Martin DeWulf's review of the DK Signature. I don't trash other people's systems, would never say the amp is for everybody, or that it destroys all other components, but I absolutely believe it's a great value for dollar product. While the Stereophile Review may not be all it could, it also comes to the conclusion that the DK is a great value, and other reviews concur. I'm very comfortable encouraging people to audition it against both integrateds and separates and let the chips fall.
It's too bad the company didn't send Bound For Sound a Statement Integrated instead of the Signature. While the Signature is very good, and a big improvement on the standard integrated, the Statement is in another league!
Nobody should take my word, they shouldn't take a review as gospel, and they should ignore sniping from people who have never heard the amp. I hope they will judge for themselves, put the DK on the short list of must listen components, and spend time listening to music in their own systems.
I have no position on the DK products, but I did finally read the Stereophile review yesterday. As I read it, Mr. Reina preferred the Creek. He said many nice things about the DK, but the bottom line was lukewarm at best.
05-29-06: Audioari1 Actually, yes Chris, you absolutely should seek out the Creek. Isn't it time to upgrade the Cary Audio Design SLI-80?
LOL! Is that really the best you can do? I really expected a revelation of a response. I just asked a question. You are the one posting reviews and putting lipstick on the Pig..
It's fascinating how the mention of DK evokes such strong anger from some who haven't heard the products. No amount of positive reviews or recommendations will change their minds. They have no interest in actually listening to the integrateds, but they will eagerly twist the meanings of reviewers or supporters, or do what ever they have to do to bash DK. Some people aren't happy unless they're miserable, and if they aren't happy, why should anybody else be? It's not about logic or evidence for them.
What's important is that there are a lot of very happy DK owners who are passionate about the product, and more reviews are coming on line that agree that the integrateds are a tremendous value. If you are looking to upgrade your system, as a DK owner who sold his higher priced separates, I would respectfully suggest that you give the DK Integrateds a listen.
Ummmm....no...as far as I remember I haven't listed it for sale...nor do I plan to...yet I'm pretty sure that I could get more than $500 for it (original retail was $1995).
Why can't DK just have a little humility and say that it is a good amp for it's price rather than try to tout it as the most marvelous product to hit the market since the wheel?
Ellery, you mentioned something about depreciation? I just checked the classifieds and all the DK stuff is marked as sold, and your Electrocompaniet is just collecting more dust on the shelf as it is being offered for 1/4 of the retail price and no one is buying...yeah, I guess DK really does depreciate faster then Electrocompaniet.
Another interesting review...it makes me want to go out and audition the Creek even more...especially knowing that if it can beat the DK in more areas than not (according to the Stereophile review) and if that's the case...then I guess that a $1500 integrated will clearly compete even more advantageously with separates that are "well north of $10,000"
Oh...and I loooooove the comparison to Gryphon. Never heard the stuff but I understand that it is one of the "Holy Grail" brands (in all seriousness)...but if you say that the DK is like Gryphon because of Solen devices...then you could also assume that it is like the sub $1500 Primaluna Prologue 2 as they use Solen also.
Taking a "part" that is used in an amplifier and then using it as a basis to give it a favorable comparison to a MUCH higher end amp is akin to putting 18" wheels & S03's on a Honda and comparing it favorably to a Porsche.
I would not consider myself a DK basher but being off today and doing a little listening, I decided to read the review in Stereophile after coming across this thread. I have to say, after reading it, I would absolutely seek out the CREEK Integrated after reading that if I was in the market for a new Integrated Amp..
If the DK competes with Separates well north of $10,000.00 at $3,200.00; does this mean the Creek at $1,495.00 actually betters separates north of $10,000.00 and is solid state to boot?
I mean you could purchase the CREEK, an upgraded Power Cord, and a TON of new Music for well under $3,200.00.
Not bashing just simply asking a question based on the review?
Has absolutely nothing to do with DK I can assure you that. I know the Norwegian importer of DK products and he has sold about 10 pcs of the integrated amp. I am also from Norway and know the history with Electrocompaniet and Per Abrahamsen. Electrocompaniet is alive with new owners, and Per Abrahamsen has his own company and has started producing new products. In fact the procucts are copies of the old "the 2 channel amplifier". http://www.erikholm.com/images/abrahamsen/w600/3.jpg
I agree Brian, it always rubs me the wrong way when a manufacturer feels compelled to add comments to a review they aren't happy with. And to place blame on possible faulty internal wiring doesn't help the reputation of their Q.C. either.
Gunbei, let me make something clear about the Daniels comments at the end of my "review". Two of my friends contacted him speaking kindly as they were hoping he would allow me to give the amp to them instead of sending it back to the fatory. His taking an opportunity to inject comments are out of line, IMO.
I stand corrected.. Thank you for the update as I had no idea. I just thought they were acquired as Per was retiring. As for DK bashers, I could really care less as it is what it is.
If it is not a pure Tube Amplifier, I am just not interested personally.. I just hate when people take pot shots are people's systems as Jim did with Ellery..
The manufacturer's response to Brian's review reminds me how all too often it is forgotten that no one product is the best and everyone has different tastes.
Kid, the statements by Jim are true. Electrocompaniet has filed for bankruptcy in Norway. Per Abramsen, the lead designer at Electrocompaniet has formed a new entity called ECS Holdings, Ltd. which is now responsible for the manufacture of all of the Electrocompaniet products moving forward. So, do you think a company is doing well if it has to declare bankruptcy?
This may be very hard for your die-hard DK bashers to swallow, but part of the reason Electrocompaniet got hit so hard is because DK has become one of the most popular and sought after amplifiers in Norway and other nearby countries...
Want more proof? Home Studio Magazine in the Netherlands (many times larger and more influential then Stereophile) declared: "It is the best amplifier I have ever had in this house and it is my new reference."
So, DK bashers - its Game Over for you. And if you keep feeding the flames, you only inadvertantly spread the news about DK products to other people, thereby making it even more popular.
05-29-06: jimolson1000@yahoo.com Ellery, I looked at your system and I believe you should refrain from making comments as the only standard set by the makers of your amplifier is the company going out of business!
Jim,
Actually, NOT TRUE. Electrocompaniet was acquired and is doing quite fine Jim. Do your research before you make bold statements like that.
In the new Bound For Sound (www.boundforsound.com) Martin G. DeWulf writes "I have been working with the DK VS1 Signature (tube, solid state hybrid) for a while now, and I can say without fear of contradiction, that the VS1 Signature totally wipes out any distinctions one can make between integrateds of the past and the highest performing separates of today. Oh my, is it good! Honestly, I'm having trouble coming up with a separates combo - at any price - that is as revealing and harmonically complete as the DK Signature. And the DK is frightfully powerful, delivering brute strength and energy to the VMPS RM40s in ways that few amps ever have."
Snofun, clearly the reviewer says that based on the performance and the build of the amplifier, "I figured I was listening to an amplifier that would retail somewhere between $5000 and $7000". So, what is your beef? This is definitely an outstanding complement to the DK.
I am also surprised that no one brought this up yet, but there is actually a mistake in the review. The reviewer states that Siemens NOS tubes were used in the DK during the HE2005 show where he heard it first and thought so highly of it. But, the tubes that were used in the DK during the show and driving Von Schweikert speakers were the Mullard Cryo CV2492.
I actually tried the Siemens NOS in my DK VS-1 Mk. 3 and did not like them very much. But the Mullard CV2492 did make a phenominal difference in sound quality.
Despite all this commotion about the DK, I have never talked to anyone who actually heard the unit or owned it that did not enjoy their time with it; I wish the same could be said about Krell, Levinson, and a few other brands that appear in Snofun's system...
Ellery, I looked at your system and I believe you should refrain from making comments as the only standard set by the makers of your amplifier is the company going out of business!
I have a strange feeling that a majority of the negative posts are from people who have not even heard this product, sure the past marketing was a shame but un-educated rants about the ACTUAL performance and quality is atleast as or more criminal, if you never heard it then input your thoughts elsewhere...and get a life. That being said, is it perfect...no, is it the be-all-end-all integrated...ofcourse not, but it is very good of gear and sounds great for what money you are paying for it I spent a few days hanging out with a fellow AGON member, we listened to 5 systems wich included gear such as , Theil, Esoteric, BAT, VPI, Genesis, BW, and other high end gear that ascapes me, my point is to simply say we heard some very good gear, the most enjoyable was the time spent with the DK, it was the most entertaining....and the cheapest.
Yo Jimmy Olson - you need to read the review my friend. From a world beater to something apparently barely managing to stay up with a $1500 piece, and it's setting standards?
Standards for what? Number of models released in 18 months. We're up to what, 4 models now. Great for resale eh?
Stndard setter - right. Another newbie out of the closet to wax eloquent about DK - even those that got all gooey about the thing last year have already sold them - you're a bit behind the power curve already my friend.
All you guys still bashing the DK need to take your medicine! Give it up, all your bashing didn't work, the DK will continue to set standards for the industry. Anyone who is still hostile at this point MUST be jealous of DKs success.
But...I seem to have a different overall impression of what I read.
but lets take a walk down memory lane first.
Wasn't DK the integrated that would beat 10k separates?
Sounds to me like the reviewer thought more highly of the Creek (with the exception of holography)
soooooo.
I guess the Creek is a $1500 integrated that beats the $3200 DK integrated that beats $10,000 separates (although they still never told us what separates those were)
I feel really sorry for whoever bought those so-called $10k separates.
Just a few cuts from the review for those who haven't had a chance to form their own opinions: "...the integrated amp possesed some of the hallmark attributes of a high quality tube preamp." By way of comparison, most high quality preamps don't weigh 77 pounds and have an amp as an add on, and cost only $3200.
"On all closely miked female vocals, sibilants were clear, crisp and distinct." ""...Minimum/Maximum ...also showed off the VS.1 ....lightning-fast ability to render rapid transients, without any sense of blunting or artificial edge. My listening note: "Chills!"
"My notes: 'The stage! The stage!! Hall ambience, wall reflections, depth width, specificity, and the speakers disappear."
"But you might just conclude the you no longer want--or need--to make that "upgrade", (to separates). End of Quotes:
Was the review, that of the perfect product? Of course not--the amp isn't perfect, then again, I am not sure,any are. I think Stereophile's Bob (Reina's) review, allows the potential buyer to realize, that for $3200. (our entry level amplifier) one can have the basic sound of many separates which traditionally cost much more.
My personal assessment is, that this is a good review and points out the 'value' of this product. We are also excited about an upcoming review, (elsewhere) on the SIGNATURE Amp.
I guess I'm supposed to throw in my 2cents worth here as a DK Mk II owner (has been for sale on consignment at a local hi-fi emporium for about 6 months). I pretty much agree with the polite, carefully worded review in latest Stereophile, except the bit about excellent soundstaging. Was interesting to see the note about inverted signal, I never did try reversing speaker wiring, may have helped bass impact. The comparisons to other amps were also pretty much inline with what Iv'e heard at CES demos. Any thoughts from you guys on subject of speaker polarity and bass response/imaging? Thanks, Mike.
Any one knows what might be the problem with my DK MK II. The sound coming out from the left channel is always louder than the right channel. This is particularly noticeable when I turned the volume down to a low level. I tried swapping tubes, speakers, and even the left/right input(just to be sure its not a problem with my digital source) but the problem remains.
Sometimes when I get really busy with work and am away from the 'Gon for a few months, luckily for me guys like you will email me 'Gon threads I should take a look at. Did someone send you a wake up call? Heheh.
Dean
Audiogon is actually pretty tame compared to some of the other forums out there. Much has to do with who's participating. If you want to see brutal, go to a car forum or one centered on combat sports like MMA. Those get personal immediately. One of the craziest I witnessed was a Valentine versus Escort radar detector debate. Battle royal was more like it!
I try to add that Groove Tube/Kentucky Fried Movie perspective to my posts on the 'Gon, heheh.
Tom, I don't think it is as bad as it used to be about a year ago on back. I don't think the 'Gon is nearly as contentious as I remember it. I have found it refreshing lately.
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