I am trying to do my due diligence about this arm. I am just having a hard time getting my head around this idea of zero overhang and no offset. Does this arm really work the way it is reported to do?
It seems that owners of the Viv Labs RF arm rave about it, whilst non-owners say it is impossible for it to be even acceptable. Someone’s got to be right.
Each design has its drawbacks, so its possible that each design can be successful in its own right. I’ve never heard an underhung or no-offset pivoted arm, but it’s certainly an interesting concept so I wouldn’t rule it out.
It would take the drilling of just one extra hole in an SME 309-type headshell to mount a cartridge with no offset ... so I could set it up as an underhung tonearm and see (hear?) for myself ... What’s to lose, except a little time and effort?
The problem is that you’d be modifying an arm that was designed to be used with offset - just look at the differences in geometry between the SME and a ViV. So I think you’d be limited in whatever conclusion you could draw from the experiment.
I’m considering an experiment. The double-podded standalone tonearms have served their purpose in cartridge comparisons and are currently unused. It would take the drilling of just one extra hole in an SME 309-type headshell to mount a cartridge with no offset, and there is sufficient room for the cartridge to have its mounting bolts equidistant either side of a line from the pivot, so it will be perfectly straight. The pods can be placed at any distance from the table, so I could set it up as an underhung tonearm and see (hear?) for myself what that particular fuss is about. It seems that owners of the Viv Labs RF arm rave about it, whilst non-owners say it is impossible for it to be even acceptable. Someone’s got to be right.
Best of all, I have several spare headshells, and the one I alter will still be perfectly usable in a conventional manner afterwards. What’s to lose, except a little time and effort?
Here is the URL for a discussion of the Viv Float that took place on Audiokarma starting in 2015. I don't necessarily agree with all comments, but a few guys have some interesting ideas. Some other guys don't.
I found a very interesting discussion of the Viv Float on Audiokarma, dating to 2015. Some of the discussants seem very knowledgeable and brought up many additional pros and cons. Worth reading for an interested party. I’ll post the URL here.
In my assessment, there has been no 'Distortion' seen from nearly all commentators on their experiences with the 'Viv' in use.
I can say, I have been impressed by the commentary and have made my own inroads to experience something similar to a 'Viv' Geometry. There is no 'contempt prior to investigation' at my end.
There is quite obvious content from certain commentators, where the narrative is to 'Distort' / Re-shape the Commentary from others, who are claiming to have encountered very good experiences from using the 'Viv'.
It seems absolutely diabolical and futile that a few are to spend so much time suggesting that if one is not using a Geometry from a particular group of Mathematicians, the only outcome is an inferior experience.
Tonearm Geometries under discussion allow for the Styli to make contact with the Groove and the result is produced music from the entirety of the LP.
'Lo and Behold', there is music being produced and when the produced sonic heard, is being thoroughly enjoyed. For some, the produced sonic is preferred to other previous methods used for placing a Styli in a Groove.
What does stand out is that all commentators on experiencing the Viv' in use are experienced with the use of all Geometries being presented in this thread. Each knows how they have been influenced by the Sonic produced from the differing concepts.
The 'Viv' has become the preferred choice for some of its users.
What a Waste such an attitude is when it comes from notion,
' Only when my suggested math is being utilised, as I suggest it should, can then only the real enjoyment of listening to a LP replay be encountered and only then might I find it acceptable for what one is claiming'. What a load of utter twaddle.
So I ask again, why are you so angry, Raul? This is a hobby. I bought a tonearm and reported on its sound quality here in a thread that is supposed to be about that very same tonearm. Take it or leave it. Meantime, I am having fun with it. You tried to mock me ("blah, blah, blah" was the way you put it) for not saying why the tonearm might perform well, so I responded with a description of my current thoughts, even though I had already done so before you "blah"-ed me. End of story. This is not the first instance in which you have become apoplectic when someone reports an opinion or an observation that does not comply with any of your many biases. The best you can ever do in such cases is to suggest that the other guy "likes distortion" but it's "perfectly alright".
@lewm I read what you posted and does not exist any " mantra ". You can run-out/away of the facts and if you don't want to accept the fact that you like added high distortions with that tonearm is up to you and your privilege. No mantra here but just reality and nothing wrong with that.
Dear Raul, Please read one or two of my earlier posts wherein I speculate on the reason why a proper underhung tonearm might be worth a further thought. To boil down what I already wrote, (1) although much is made of the extreme TAE, those very high numbers (by comparison to conventional pivoted tonearms) only occur at the extremes as the stylus traverses the playing surface of an LP. For a half-inch or so on either side of the single null point (i.e., for a whole inch or more of the playable surface), TAE is within the same range as the maxima for an overhung tonearm. Thus one would not expect to hear a problem, if one were to compare overhung to underhung in that region. Moreover, the change of TAE from zero at the single null point to the maxima at the outermost and innermost grooves is nearly linear going from positive to negative (adopting the convention that "positive" TAE is TAE that results in a skating force directed toward the spindle, and vice-versa for "negative" TAE) and very gradual. Whereas, with an overhung tonearm, TAE is always positive and is changing up and down then up and down again, across the playable surface. Maybe that is a factor too, and (2) perhaps the very significant (2X to 3X) reduction in the skating force seen with an underhung tonearm compared to an overhung tonearm is very significant for the performance of the cartridge, because the skating force is borne at the fulcrum of the cantilever and more so when AS is invoked. All of this is speculation stimulated by listening and thinking. No measurements.
My listening so far suggests that the Viv makes average or above average cartridges sound better than I expect based on prior auditioning in overhung tonearms, but it cannot make a mediocre cartridge into a top class cartridge. Sometimes the Viv is only "as good" as a good overhung tonearm. Sometimes it portrays an ease and sense of open-ness and low distortion compared to a good overhung tonearm.
You may now re-state your often repeated mantra that I "like" distortion. Have at it.
Dear @lewm : No, I'm not angry and never with you.
Look, the " I like " needs no explanation that can makes common sense to other audiophiles and maybe that's why you have not " none " to share.
Now, all the VIV owners are enjoying and " discovering " a new distortion added stage and that's all.
J.Ellison is rigth we analog lovers like distortions, nothing wrong with that.
What I don't like is than been aware that something is adding high distortions buy and listen to that audio item. I don't like added distortions My target is to stay nearer to the recording.
Dear @lewm : First I don't need another tonearm, second I don't need it to own the VIV to have some kind of explanation(s).
Your " I like it " along all the other owners is not really an issue but your observations as the other owners about just told me ( common sense ) that levels over 10% of THD in a room system has not really a discernible " problem ". As a fact speakers several times goes higher than 10% and in the vintage years tube electronics were just " there " and everybody happy.
All those just told me too that we are not measuring the rigth paRAMETERS FOR THE TONEARM HIGH CARTRIDGE ERROR DISTORTION LEVELS.
We are accustomed for the inherent way high " natural " tracking distortion that we can't avoid and we " like it " so another kind of tracking distortion is welcomed for you and the other owners and I'm still posting here looking for your explanations because was you who posted here about.
@mijostyn , no matters what the tonearm design ( no matters which kind of design. ) that tonearm can't makes to avoid the inherent tracking distortion in the analog playback media.
Not only you but I'm sure no one really can tell in very precise way a tonearm with 0° tracking error against other tonearm with 1.3° tracking error. NO ONE ( everything the same ).
Mijo, I have to apologize. Of course you have every right to choose where to spend your bucks and to reject one innovative approach in favor of another. As you know, I waited to buy the Viv Float until we were in Tokyo, and at a time when the yen to dollar exchange rate is at an all time high favoring the dollar, which saved me quite a bit on cost. I am kind of a high end cheapskate.
Mijo, with great respect, all I’m asking for is a thoughtful cessation of knee jerk negative reactions to the very idea of an underhung tonearm with zero offset. Your point about cost is interesting; you’d rather not spend on an underhung tonearm so as to save your money to buy a different type of tonearm that costs 2-3X more. Just spent 2 afternoons at CAF and didn’t see the Schroeder or Reed tangential arms on demo, but did see a TruGlider with Nasotec headshell sporting an optical DS Audio cartridge. That setup makes the Viv look old school.
With only so much money to spend and only so much real estate in my media room I prefer to head down the path of least resistance. Negating skating forces is a noble cause. Minimizing tracking error is also a noble cause. I would prefer a solution that does both. Until I can manage that leap I prefer to stay where I am. The VIV arm may sound fine but it is not the solution I am looking for.
If the Spec's say it does 0-60 in 4.5 Seconds and the best one can get in their attempts is 5.5 Seconds does the driving experience really become unsatisfactory, as testing undertaken by very special individuals in their field of expertise are not repeatable by mere mortals.
Enjoying the Ride is surely the Goal.
Yamaha still produce a underhung TA available today, there latest TT is adorned with it. The Company have stuck loyal to the Geometry for a long period of time.
The idea of comparing a Underhung Design using a conventional design arm, in comparison to the alternatives seen in the 'Viv' should produce a interesting to read assessment.
As for What's Best Forum, there are a few contributors on there with a vast experience and any one looking for an alternative viewpoint will not be selling themselves short having a look at the info on offer.
As I’ve said before, I’d value your opinion if you would seriously audition an underhung tonearm. That would be a real contribution. The way forward in science, and even in this trivial pursuit of audio excellence, is to seek an explanation for observations that run contrary to one’s cherished beliefs, rather than to ignore surprising results. That’s all I’m trying to do here.
Dear @lewm : Seems to me that you already gave up looking that a wrong design sounds good other that the " normal ": I like it. Nothing wrong with that.
In other thread ( Dava cartridge ) you posted something about other internet forym that the arguments there always is " I like it ":
""I wouldn't take WBF too seriously, except to say that some of those guys actually do own the megabuck gear that they discuss........ But beware of subconscious bias, which is inevitable and only human. "
Well, now you will be welcomed down there. Just kidding.
Interesting tidbit, I learned yesterday that Yamaha has been offering an underhung tonearm since the early 80s, as an extra cost option on their GT2000 and possibly standard on the GT2000X. The YSA-2. So the idea is not at all new. Nor was it categorically rejected by Japanese audiophiles, since all commercially available underhung tonearms emanate from japan. The YSA-2 is an entirely conventional tonearm for its day. Nothing odd about its appearance or functionality, and it can be mounted on any TT. Except it has zero headshell offset and is meant to be underhung. I want one.
On the MP500, I think the spec is for 100 Hz. You have to convert that to 10Hz by multiplying by a factor between 1.7 and 2.0. So that would put the compliance at 10Hz at ~14 to 17cu, which makes more sense. The VE database more often than not should not be trusted. Or "trust but verify".
I’ve “discovered” that alignment is important, using the supplied template. I aligned for the first cartridge I auditioned on the Viv (Ortofon MC7500). Since then I’ve simply been swapping out different cartridges each mounted in a different CF headshell without bothering to re-check alignment. Recently I noticed that SQ with my Dynavector 17D3 was not up to snuff compared to a previous audition of the same cartridge. I had remounted the DV in a different headshell and the cartridge by chance was at the extreme end of the slots in the headshell. Thus alignment was off by about a centimeter too close to the spindle. This would place the null point in the runout grooves or even on the label. Correction of this error resulted in a huge improvement in SQ, 17D3 now sounding better than ever in any other tonearm.
I just put my MP-500 on my Viv Labs arm (speaking of the thread topic) and it sounds way better than on the SME 3012R I've had it on before. Usually the two are pretty comparable, but maybe the lightness of the Viv is an advantage with this cart--even tho it's compliance is a low 8.5, according to the VE database.
Lew, the styli are backordered, at least mine are, and “usually” ship 5-10 days after the order was placed, which means in the next few days for me. This info should appear in your acknowledgment email. I wouldn’t sweat it yet.
Doggie and wrm57, Have you received your styli? I ordered with 2-3 day delivery via DHL, but so far have received nothing. It's only 7 days, but still I am a bit concerned. DHL is very prompt where I live.
Right now I am flabbergasted about how good is the Nagaoka MP500 that I also bought in Tokyo last May. Don't know why it took me so long to mount it for an audition (in my Triplanar on my Denon DP80). To those who don't know, because many refer to it as an MM type, this is a Moving Iron cartridge. MP stands for Moving Permalloy, which is a little confusing because permalloy is magnetizable. Anyway, this is yet another great MI cartridge.
well the RS Labs is an almost vintage tonearm against the Yamaha and in those all years audiophiles can change its mind due that were learning in several audio issues almost every day.
@mijostyn , the whole fun behind vinyl is just that a lot of fun, several and different issues/alternatives/ste up parameters/ sevral different cartridges/ the preserve cleaning proccess. It's almost a " religion " all those characteristics and several more, always trying to up-grade/up-date here and there to improve quality reproduction and the other side as you mentioned is that several analog lovers as we are own thousands of LP's.
I may have to withdraw my statement that JE listened to an RS Labs tonearm and mentioned it sounded good. I cannot find the post on VA. Thought I saw it yesterday. John did acknowledge that the RS Labs has many fans; that's all I can find right now. Sorry, John, if you are out there, which I doubt.
Vinyl has emotional and sentimental ties to the past. It is also a lot of fun. For most people digital is rather boring and they assume it is lifeless. Great digital recordings are stunning and once you get into digital signal processing and all it has to offer the fun is also restored.
Btw, I know for sure that you as @mijostyn , me and some other gentlemans just do not like to add distortions in any way and nowhere our room/systems.
I posted several times and I 'm sure that at least one time you read what I posted:
" the name of the MUSIC/sound is to put at minimum any kind of distortons developed by our room/system: this is my main target that even what I posted several times too: nearer to the recording target.
I am as familiar with JE's views as I am with yours. Why can't you just go your own way, with my blessings, and know that there are other humans who think differently, on many matters related to audio, at least? Like JE, you are replacing my comparison of the Viv tonearm to other conventional pivoted tonearms with a comparison of vinyl to digital. I certainly readily concede that vinyl has more of various distortions than digital. Happy? Further, JE is calculating "distortion" using formulae that incorporate TAE as a determining parameter of distortion. This is what is called a tautology. Of course, if you make TAE a factor in the equation for distortion, then you will be finding that the more TAE, the more distortion. Like I also wrote above, in an earlier post, JE admitted that he liked the SQ of the RS Labs tonearm, based on LISTENING to it.
@lewm and dear friends: Maybe many VIV owners not even who is J.Ellison and they need to find out that information.
Now, . Ellison posted in your link about the underhung Yamaha yonearm in the thread you started there, so it's an answer that he gave to you:
" The Yamaha straight arm is absurd. "
He posted too something that I posted several time about my personal targets:
" I don't really care what it sounds like. I care only how it measures.
In other words, I want an audio system that will accurately reproduce the sound of the master tape. If additional distortion improves the listening experience, then I want that distortion added to the master tape. I don't want my audio system to add distortion. "
His last statement/sentence is my target but all what he said is just a true fact for people as mijos or me.
An his last post in that thread in different words is something I already posted here and from year now in several threads:
" I firmly believe that the people who prefer vinyl also prefer distortion.
It's really quite simple. If you have a reference recording and you make a vinyl copy of it that sounds different from the original, the difference is a result of distortion. We all know that vinyl sounds different because something can't sound better than something else unless it also sounds different.
I've made hundreds of measurements of vinyl test records and I know that the vinyl format produces significant measurable distortion. Therefore, I have no doubt that I'm listening to distortion when I listen to vinyl. That's what gives vinyl its distinctive sound quality.
Best regards, "
Btw, that's why we " say " ( not me ) that vinyl has superiority to digital when it's theother way around. No pun intented.
lew, I really appreciated your link because that gentleman confirmed several of my posted believes in this forum.
I made an error in my post of 10/27 at 3:10 PM. The TAE of a 9-inch UH tonearm would not range between +9 degrees and -9 degrees, while passing through TAE =0, because the radius of an LP at outer grooves vs inner grooves is so radically different. Because the radius at the inner grooves is much less than outer, making for a tighter smaller circle at the innermost grooves, TAE at inner grooves would be higher than it is at outer grooves, even when you align for a null at the midpoint of the playing surface. That consideration is what leads to the very complex equations for TAE derived by Lofgren and others. You can see this easily in the graphs posted above by Intact Audio (Dave). John Ellison posted graphs showing TAE for a 16-inch UH tonearm over on VA, perhaps included in the thread I referenced. His graphs also show the effect. This is why the template for the Viv puts the single null point nearest to the innermost grooves, 90mm from the spindle.
Not that I should question your cleverness, but the only way I have ever been comfortable with an audio assessment is to do rapid AB comparisons. I have a new method which you will hate but @intactaudiowill appreciate. If I want to compare two cartridges everything else in the chain has to be identical. I record both cartridges to my hard drive in 24/192 playing the same record. I can run both files at the same time and switch back and forth with the remote. You can compare any analog source this way.
Intactaudio, I recommend that people who have very small or no record collection at all should not get started in vinyl. It is problematic from a number of perspectives and silly expensive. It is for hobbyists like Lew, Raul and myself, people who already have insanely large vinyl collections who have to play them with something. We are like little old ladies around a little glass table at teatime discussing our medical issues.
Over on Vinyl Asylum, there was a congenial discussion of underhung tonearms back in 2018-19, in relation to the introduction by Yamaha of their GT5000 turntable which comes with a straight, underhung tonearm. I kind of wish I knew then what I know now about the Viv, but you can read some thoughts on the pros and cons. Interestingly, John Ellison, who is certainly a ranking guru, comes down on the negative side, but in an earlier post, not included here, he admitted that he very much liked the RS Labs RS-A1. What I would say now to JE is that I am not comparing the Viv sound to that of hi-rez digital, which he often does with vinyl; I am comparing it to other conventional overhung tonearms. And to my ears, the Viv might come a bit closer to the master tape/digital ideal of low distortion.
@lewm, well both of us are in some way " closed mine " because if I need to listen VIV youuuuu need to develop a way better tests proccess. When do you start to do it?
I'm not willing to buy a VIV first because I don't need a tonear my self design is very good but I woned over 20 tonearm and still own a good number and second because my common sense says so and my curiosity level is way lower that yours mine is ZERO.
All the other owners of the Viv, will undoubtedly have their own agendas for the use of their time, using their limitation in contributing posts to add to the inefficacy that this ongoing discussion is creating, is certainly not a substantiation that there is a lack of conviction to the ownership and usage of the 'Viv'.
Extending to other forums and one in particular, 'Shakti', from 'What's Best Forum' has expressed a very worthwhile experience with their usage of the 'Viv'. There are very limited in number individuals who share this persons knowledge about and experiences of using Vinyl Replay ancillaries. A recent post referred to their continued interest and that they will be looking into methods to enable to be used in present set ups.
Even though not a direct comparison to @lewmdescriptions, there is plenty of commonality in the feel good and positivity the usage of this arm is able to generate.
I fully get this euphoria, as I can relate to it from the change toward and then usage of a Tonearm I adopted to be used over other respected Branded Models.
As said previously, this thread is to become an uphill climb for certain contributors, life is certainly too short for this one as a hike.
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