Denon DL-103 -- Was it a mistake?

Yes I did receive the 640p. I plugged it in for the first time Wednesday afternoon and it has been turned on ever since.

And it most definitely is a shame. After reading all the good things about the DL-103, I had very high hopes it would work for me. Maybe the acrylic platter is also a bad thing for this cart? I may purchase some felt today and make my own felt mat, just to see what that does.

Well here's an update. I've put about 21-22 hours on the cart so far, and it has settled down a bit, but the sound still isn't right. I took the advice of many and put some sticky tack at the head shell to increase the tonearm mass, and of course moved the counter weight back to readjust the tracking force to 2.5. This seems to have helped the bass, but for some reason I can't get rid of this aggressive lower treble sound. It isn't fatiguing on classical, but is definitely noticeable. But on heavy rock with a lot of cymbals, it is just way too aggressive. It's a shame because I do love the midrange sound of this cart, but the intrusive treble makes it hard to enjoy it. I'm not so sure I'm going to be able to get this to work with my setup. And I'm not about to go buy a new table and/or tonearm to fit this cart. My goal was to get a good enough replacement cart to use while I send my Virtuoso in for repair. This current Denon setup has me REALLY missing the Virtuoso. This just isn't doing it for me. The overall sound seems a bit "forced" at times. This makes it sound much less musical than other carts I've heard. It seems as though there is a lots of detail, but it sacrifices musicality to get this detail. I am not a fan of that.

What are you tracking at? Don't be afraid to dial in some tracking force.. min 2grams. The 103 NEEDS a high mass 12' arm... then it will sing. It really is a great cartridge, and seems to sound best with idler driven tables..

Also do not forget the Denon arms! You can find these relatively inexpensive arms and if you put the 103 on it...you got it!

I could not agree more! I have a friend who uses the Denon arm and a Thorens BTD12-S (I also have this arm)and the Dl103 sound superb!

I read many post using DL-103's with unipivot or gimbal arm at around 12 and below effective mass and claim that it sounds good. I have no problem with that but I truly believe that there's more to it. Similarly, people post that it sounds horrible and to this I would say that the Dl-103 did not have a chance to shine because of the arm being use.

regards,

Abe

Also do not forget the Denon arms! You can find these relatively inexpensive arms and if you put the 103 on it...you got it!

My experience....

I currently own six DL 103 series carts ( 2 stock DL-103, 1 stock DL-103R, 1x Dl-103R SS retipped, 2x DL103 with wood body).

All I can say is that the arm needs at least 14-16 gms minimum effective mass in order to hear what the 103 series are really made of excluding the headshell weight. On the stock 103's currently installed in my system, I found the Orsonic AV101-S (16 gms) and Yamamoto (10.4 gms) to sound the best loaded at around 40 to 100 ohms in 26 dB SUT gain (1:20) with VTA a tad high (tail up a bit). As you can see, using the two headshells results in an effective mass in the range of 24-30 gms effective mass.

I tried unipivot arms in the 14 gms and less tonearm mass before and I was not pleased at the results even if I add weights on the headshell.

On the two wood body carts I have, I found that it sounds good even on the SME 3009 S2 Improved arm (9.5 Eff. Mass not including the original SME headshell which is about 6~7 gms)but really sound much better using a heavier headshell (Orsonic or Yamamoto).

So, in summary, try using an arm with a total effective mass of 23 gms. and above and I assure you from my experience, that you will hear a new sound on your DL103 compared to what you have now.

Well I guess I'll find out when the 640P arrives. I never heard anyone say that it was bright before, after reading several reviews. I wish I would have known that beforehand, because my system is definitely not dark. I'd say that it's fairly neutral as is. It may be possible to mod the 640P to change the loading on the MC section. I'm not afraid to use a soldering iron, I just need to know which caps/resistors to change.

I could also try moving the TT around, because it is fairly close to the speaker. I never noticed a feedback problem before, but that was with a higher output MM cart. Maybe it is more sensitive now with a low output MC.

Muddy bass could be a sign of excessive feedback from the speaker. You might want to move the TT around a bit to see if the bass improves. Another way to test it is to lower the cart on a record without turning the motor on, than slowly turn up the volume and see if you get any feedback.

Best results I got with a heavy Tonearm (FR, Ikeda...this direction).

Great cartridge, and not just for the money. Problematic though -- it has never sounded less than good on three of my arms -- that cheap 12" cherry wood tonearm, a JMW 10.5, and an SME IIIs (with added headshell weight) -- but one friend with a superb system couldn't make the same cart (mine) sound halfway decent. Loading appears to be critical. People recommend 100 ohms but my Aesthetix Rhea sounds WAY better at 500 ohms,

Finally, this thing really take wing when treated to a Soundsmith retip. Mine now has their Optimized Contour (OC) line contact ruby cantilever ($350) and is in a whole other league from the stock conical version. Good luck, Dave

"What phono section are you using and what is the impedance that you are loading the cartridge at?"

I'm currently using the phono section built into my NAD C 162 preamp (eek!) but I have a Cambridge Audio 640p in shipment, which should arrive tomorrow. I know the phono section in the NAD is horrible, because it even managed to make my Clearaudio Virtuoso cart sound horrible.

"What is the effective mass of your arm?"

According to needledoctor.com, the effective tonearm mass for the Clearaudio Satisfy arm is 9g.

"Are you using 2.5 grams tracking force?"

Yes, I am currently tracking around 2.7 to aid in the break-in process.

"I would be patient until I had a hundred hours or so on it and if I was still unhappy add mass then. Turntables and arms take a while to optimize , take your time, you have a good cartridge."

You're right. Only having 10 hours on this cart, I don't think it's fair to make a serious judgment on it yet. It's easy to jump to conclusions in this hobby. I'm very hopeful that the 640p phono pre will help the sound a good bit, as I'm sure it will. All the reviews I read on it say that it's a good phono stage. The output impedance on the Denon is 100 ohms, which matches the input impedance of the Cambridge.

"For an RB300, just tape a couple of pennies to the headshell."

I suppose I could try that with my arm, too?

The compliance tests in Hi Fi Tests magazine is probably a better indicator (13) than Denon's own specs (5), because Denon cites the compliance at a different frequency (100Hz?) than is customary (10KHz).

16-20 g effective mass isn't too hard to come by. Most arms these days have an effective mass around 14g. A Technics SL12x0 turntable with an aftermarket Sumiko headshell will get you there, as would any of the Audio Technica Technihard headshells, particularly the 13g or 15g.

For an RB300, just tape a couple of pennies to the headshell. :) Actually, it would take some sort of headshell weight in the 3-5g range. Or you could use the Zu-103 version, which is heavier than the plastic-bodied DL-103.

I have been hearing that Denon 103s require very massive arms, have they changed the cartridge? In the 1980s when HiFi Choice was a serious magazine they conducted the most comprehensive arm and cartridge tests I am familiar with. At that time they estimated from their tests that the compliance was 13 in both lateral and vertical planes and recommended arms in the 6-16 gram range. I now see the 103s compliance listed at 5 in some sites, have they actually reduced the compliance that much? The cost in 1985 was 80 pounds in England, not far off what I paid this year for a new one. Are you using 2.5 grams tracking force? With the large footprint of the spherical stylus this tracking force will not damage the records and is quite necessary. I use that weight in my Scoutmaster arm which has about 7 grams mass and it is working quite well but took some time to break in. You can always add mass as Viridian suggests. I was a Supex dealer and used in the 1980s when I had high mass arms like the Lustre 801 and the Fidelity Research so I haven't used the Denon in a high mass arm. I would be patient until I had a hundred hours or so on it and if I was still unhappy add mass then. Turntables and arms take a while to optimize , take your time, you have a good cartridge.