"What phono section are you using and what is the impedance that you are loading the cartridge at?"
I'm currently using the phono section built into my NAD C 162 preamp (eek!) but I have a Cambridge Audio 640p in shipment, which should arrive tomorrow. I know the phono section in the NAD is horrible, because it even managed to make my Clearaudio Virtuoso cart sound horrible.
"What is the effective mass of your arm?"
According to needledoctor.com, the effective tonearm mass for the Clearaudio Satisfy arm is 9g.
"Are you using 2.5 grams tracking force?"
Yes, I am currently tracking around 2.7 to aid in the break-in process.
"I would be patient until I had a hundred hours or so on it and if I was still unhappy add mass then. Turntables and arms take a while to optimize , take your time, you have a good cartridge."
You're right. Only having 10 hours on this cart, I don't think it's fair to make a serious judgment on it yet. It's easy to jump to conclusions in this hobby. I'm very hopeful that the 640p phono pre will help the sound a good bit, as I'm sure it will. All the reviews I read on it say that it's a good phono stage. The output impedance on the Denon is 100 ohms, which matches the input impedance of the Cambridge.
"For an RB300, just tape a couple of pennies to the headshell."
I suppose I could try that with my arm, too? |
Well I guess I'll find out when the 640P arrives. I never heard anyone say that it was bright before, after reading several reviews. I wish I would have known that beforehand, because my system is definitely not dark. I'd say that it's fairly neutral as is. It may be possible to mod the 640P to change the loading on the MC section. I'm not afraid to use a soldering iron, I just need to know which caps/resistors to change.
I could also try moving the TT around, because it is fairly close to the speaker. I never noticed a feedback problem before, but that was with a higher output MM cart. Maybe it is more sensitive now with a low output MC. |
Well here's an update. I've put about 21-22 hours on the cart so far, and it has settled down a bit, but the sound still isn't right. I took the advice of many and put some sticky tack at the head shell to increase the tonearm mass, and of course moved the counter weight back to readjust the tracking force to 2.5. This seems to have helped the bass, but for some reason I can't get rid of this aggressive lower treble sound. It isn't fatiguing on classical, but is definitely noticeable. But on heavy rock with a lot of cymbals, it is just way too aggressive. It's a shame because I do love the midrange sound of this cart, but the intrusive treble makes it hard to enjoy it. I'm not so sure I'm going to be able to get this to work with my setup. And I'm not about to go buy a new table and/or tonearm to fit this cart. My goal was to get a good enough replacement cart to use while I send my Virtuoso in for repair. This current Denon setup has me REALLY missing the Virtuoso. This just isn't doing it for me. The overall sound seems a bit "forced" at times. This makes it sound much less musical than other carts I've heard. It seems as though there is a lots of detail, but it sacrifices musicality to get this detail. I am not a fan of that. |
Yes I did receive the 640p. I plugged it in for the first time Wednesday afternoon and it has been turned on ever since.
And it most definitely is a shame. After reading all the good things about the DL-103, I had very high hopes it would work for me. Maybe the acrylic platter is also a bad thing for this cart? I may purchase some felt today and make my own felt mat, just to see what that does. |
Audiofeil:
That was never the conclusion. The cantilever on that cartridge was sold to me bent, which I believe was causing a lot of problems. And since I bought it used, the stylus may also be worn (I never looked at it under a microscope).
As for the Denon, the alignment is spot on. I hear no signs of mistracking whatsoever, and inner groove distortion is nonexistent. So to answer your question, no that is not the issue here. I believe this has more to do with improper cartridge/tonearm matching. Or perhaps the DL-103 is inherently a slightly bright cartridge. I have a strong distaste for even slightly bright audio components, so that may be playing a part here as well. |
The specs on the Cambridge Audio Azur 640p state that the MC input is loaded at 100 ohm, 220 mF. From some of the other threads I've read, increasing the loading can actually make the cart sound brighter. Unfortunately, the 640p doesn't have a user selectable load setting. I'd have to physically take the unit apart and swap out resistors and/or caps.
I just wonder what could cause brightness. If it's a bad tonearm/cart match, then I'll never be able to fix that. From what I understand, a low compliance cart generates a lot of resonance, so perhaps the high frequency energy is just resonating all through the light arm tube of the Satisfy and becoming amplified. Or perhaps it's the all-acrylic body and acrylic platter. If it's burn in, then I can wait another 20-30 hours to find that out.
I'm also noticing that only certain albums sound bad. I believe it's the albums that are "cut hot", i.e. the ones where you can turn the volume down all the way and practically hear the song coming straight off the needle. To me this would indicate a problem with resonance. It's possible that the high frequency energy coming off the cartridge is resonating throughout the tonearm and causing treble feedback. If that is the case, I'm not sure how I could ever fix that without getting a different tonearm. |
Well I've given this cart 50+ hours of time to settle in, and yes, it has become less aggressive and harsh in the treble, but it still sounds too harsh to me at times. It sounds great on some albums, but is very unforgiving on others. I will have to live with it until I get the Virtuoso back, simply because I have no other choice. But I can't say that I would suggest this cart to anyone in the future unless they have a properly matched tonearm. My assessment on the sound of this cart may not be fair, simply because I'm using a low mass tonearm. I am, however, enjoying the sound of my DacMagic. On many classical recordings, it simply blows away the DL-103, hands down. |
Rnm4: Apparently you missed the second half of that post which explicitly notes the fact that my assessment may not be fair due to an improperly matched tone arm. I don't really need you to reiterate that in a forceful and negative way. Thank you. |
Audiofeil:
Lol you keep going back to that Virtuoso incident. That was simply due to a bent cantilever, which caused me to send it in for repair, which has ultimately put me in this situation using the DL-103 as a temporary replacement.
Either way, good suggestion; I will continue to check it periodically as I normally do (in case it somehow is jarred out of alignment when moving the tonearm). I'll also keep playing with VTA and VTF, but I already have the tail end down to tame the high frequencies. I feel this may just be a bad tonearm/cart match, or perhaps this cart just isn't my taste. |
Rnm4:
I mean this in the least sarcastic way possible: are you a moderator of this forum? If not, then I really don't see where you get off trying to dictate what can and can't be posted in my thread. All of the comments made in it by others have been fairly constructive except for yours. If you have nothing better to do than spend time as a forum Nazi, then perhaps you need a second hobby. I'm not answering your question, simply because it's ridiculous. Anyone who reads this entire thread will clearly understand that my issues with the DL-103 *may* be related to an improperly matched tonearm. From my understanding (and I'd like to learn more about this, so please comment constructively if you have information), matching a tonearm properly against a cartridge's compliance helps improve bass performance. I'm curious as to how it would affect treble response. My guess is that upper frequency resonance is dampened poorly by the low mass of the tone arm itself.
I'd be curious to hear from some people who have heard a DL-103 on both a low and high mass tonearm to know what the difference in sound is like. |
Just because something is "widely admired" doesn't mean that 100% of the people that hear it will enjoy its sound, even if it is being heard on a "properly setup" system. I don't understand why you keep ignoring the fact that I explicitly pointed out that my tonearm may not be a good match for this cartridge. In fact, that was pointed out in the original post, and was one of the main reasons I initiated this thread. The simple fact that I indicated the conditions under which this cartridge is being used gives me the right to explain how it sounds under those exact conditions. If you don't like that, then stop reading my thread. |
Goatwuss:
I've been playing around with that idea as well, but that's a whole other thing to deal with. I actually used the DL-103 case to send the Virtuoso, so I wouldn't really be able to safely ship the DL-103 if I sold it.
What was your setup like other than the Rega when using the 103? I just tried another trick tonight: I put rubber washers in between the cart and the mounting plate, and made sure not to over-tighten the screws. This seems to have made a marginal improvement, but albums that are cut hot still sound way too harsh to listen to. Perhaps this cartridge is just way too unforgiving on poorly made albums. |
Ok well I've just put an end to all of this and ordered an Ortofon 2M Red. I don't expect it to have quite the same definition as the 103, but I am fairly confident that it will sound much more musical in my setup, being that it is a much better match for my tonearm. |
Haha Audiofeil, you are never going to lift your grudge, are you? I *knew* you were a promoter of the MintLP. And you've been trying to hide it this whole time...
Dopogue: glad you're enjoying the DL-103. I'm sure with the retip and in a proper environment, the 103 sounds great. I'm anxiously awaiting the return of my ruby cantilever rebuild of my Virtuoso. Is the Uwe Pod just another body for the DL-103? |
Vinyladdict:
It's good to find someone who shares my same experiences with the DL-103. I tried very hard to find the magic in this cart, but either it's not there for me, or my system is just a horrible match for it like you said.
As for the discussion on alignment, I agree with you. I never had any doubts about my alignment with this cartridge. The reason Audiofeil brought it up is because I was experiencing alignment issues before with a cartridge that had a completely bent cantilever (hence sending it in for repair and needing this replacement cart). Now he seems to think I'm completely incapable of aligning a cartridge. As far as the DL-103 goes, my alignment has been great (when using the supplied Clearaudio alignment card). I hear no inner groove distortion whatsoever, which is really the only strength I noticed about the DL-103 in my system. There is no possible way that the Clearaudio alignment card is so incorrect that the alignment it provides causes the DL-103 to sound as bad as it did in my system, particularly given the fact that it does have a conical stylus.
Tvad: I hold nothing against the MintLP. That was just a joke that goes back to another thread. I'm sure it's a great product and works as advertised, albeit a bit expensive. |
Audiofeil:
"I'm not trying to hide my "promotion" of the Mint LP. I am a very strong advocate of the device.
I also have no financial interest in it if that's your implication."
That was never my implication.
"And I have no grudge; based on your posts it appears you lack the skills and/or understanding to properly align a phono cartridge."
If you are as experienced as you make yourself out to be, I highly doubt you jump to such conclusions when considering analog setup. It is clear that there are several other factors here that have contributed to my problems with the DL-103: tonearm match, phono stage match, etc. So to say that "based on my posts" I lack the understanding on how to align a cartridge as if it's the sole cause of my issues here shows your own lack of understanding of how to arrive at an overall synergy in system setup. You may have more years of experience doing this, but "based on your posts" it appears you lack knowledge as well if that is your stand, or you simply failed to read all the posts in this thread. |
Goatwuss:
Sorry for being a bit vague. I was just curious what the rest of your system was like (phono pre, etc.).
I haven't really decided if I want to sell the Denon or not, just because I'd like to install it on another TT some day to hear how it sounds in a proper setup. I'm curious as to what specifically makes the Cambridge 640p a bad match to the DL-103, since loading is usually set at 100 ohms for this cart, and that's what the 640p provides.
Good to know you are enjoying yours. I know my Paradigm speakers with the aluminum dome tweeters can be very unforgiving on bright recordings and bright sounding equipment, so that did not help the DL-103 out at all in my incorrectly-matched setup.
I too hope to get better results with the Ortofon. I will definitely report back here once I've got things settled in. |
Gordguide:
This seems like a great idea, but I'm not sure I follow exactly what you are saying. Are you saying that essentially you get an RCA "splitter" for each channel, and in one plug you plug in your cable coming from the TT, and in the other you plug in the loading RCAs? |
Also, I assume the "loading plugs" would be male-male, so that you could easily solder both ends of the resistor to the + and - ends of the male plug. |
I assume by "sut" you mean step up transformer. That really isn't an option at the moment, as I only purchased the 103 as a temporary replacement for the Virtuoso. I think that even with the 103 put in an ideal setup, I would still prefer the Virtuoso. Therefore it really isn't worth investing more money at the moment to get the 103 to sound good. I would like to try Gordguide's loading method with the Cambridge, but I'm not entirely clear on how that is done yet.
I agree they are very different sounding carts. I think the 103 definitely has potential, but I could not tolerate the brightness in my system. The Ortofon 2M Red is starting to sound pretty decent in my system now. It isn't fully run in yet, but it sounds more "musical" than the 103. Of course it lacks a great bit of detail by comparison. |
Rccc:
I think that if I were to spend time and money getting my 103 to sound "right" just as you did, I would end up coming to the same conclusion. The 103 and Virtuoso just seem like they are based on totally different philosophies of sound. But just having owned the cartridge now, I'm very curious as to how it would sound in an ideal setup.
Johnnyb53:
I appreciate the suggestion nonetheless. I've heard great things about that cart, so it no doubt sounds good. $300 is probably more than I would have spent on a replacement cart (although combining the price of my 103 with the 2M Red puts me pretty close to $300).
I'm enjoying the sound of the 2M Red quite a bit. If there was one thing I could do without, it would be its exaggerated midrange sound. Instruments like trumpets can sound a bit harsh at times. |
Well I remounted the Denon to try some loading plugs that I made. I actually learned that doing this will actually *lower* the load resistance on the Cambridge. For example, since the loading of the Cambridge is 100 ohms, if I add 100 ohm resistors in parallel, I am actually lowering the total resistance to 50 ohms. I noticed that by doing this, the sound gets more "deep" into the soundstage, dynamics are smoother, but at the same time less exciting. I didn't notice much difference in the treble. However, when I mounted the cartridge this time, I made the tail end of the tone arm a tad up instead of way down as it was before, and this seems to have surprisingly helped the sound a lot. Ultimately I'm leaving the loading at the default 100 ohms. To *increase* that number, I'd have to physically open the unit, remove the 100 ohm resistor, and put something else in. If I were to do this, I would put in a 10,000 ohm resistor, then use plugs to tone it down. But I will say that I am growing to like the DL-103 a bit more. I am getting used to its sound, although it does still sound just a tad bright in my system. This may change as I put even more hours on it. |
