Well I took the steam plunge today with a Conair unit from Wallyworld for $30 and so far its all thumbs up, I clean on VPI as normal, then steam and scrub then Vac off let sit and play. A really noisy Boston album was atleast 50% better than before and thats good enough for me, more info to follow as I clean more. |
While I don't know what the big dogs are using (as in higher end gear), I think it vital to have good record cleaning machine ( I am using a 25 yr + VPI - how is that for a great product.). I also think steam cleaning essential (and thanks to all of Crem1's excellent guidance and recommendations I am grateful; from the steamer, water, and even Purdy brush). I use Walker Audio Prelude and that is also very excellent.
Although I steam as the last step and eliminate using Walkers water Ultra Pure Water.
My records are clean and lacking ticks and pops except on really dry days.
They sound fabulous. |
Larryi said
"I usually make two vigorous efforts and then I assume that what I hear is permanent damage to the record and not just stubborn dirt"
I must admit I have fear to damage new records with something in contact to vinyl surface, also if it is the soft and clean RCM's brush and also if it will no bring audible damages: I just would hate to see also the slightest mark under strong sunlight in a new precious vinyl.
So steam cleaning attracts me, but I've thought at a centrifugal system to wipe/remove dirty condensed water or any other fluid. If would be a DIY from a drill or fan.
Athought a force of about 50 g could be applied to remove the dirty fluid (I would be satisfied if it would remove the "Micro Care Premiere", a specific fluid for new records), I don't know if it would be better than the 5 atm which a vacuum cleaner can apply to vinyl surface. However this statement can be read from a manifacturer of such RCM: "Shop vac units are not to be used for they are too powerful". |
The quality of water used is primordial it seems: I steam- cleaned a few old LPs (cleaning solution, brushing, steaming, wiping, and again) the result is better sonically BUT with the addition of pops which weren't there before. I also notice the stylus fills with gunk when playing those LPs -- obviously the cleaning is not thorough enough. I don;t have a RCM.
Or am I doing s/thing wrong? |
Crem1 and Thommas,
I don't think we have a big difference of opinion. You both use RCMs and steam cleaners. I also use both, though I rarely find a record so dirty I need to avail myself of the steam cleaner. But, for me, the RCM is the essential tool because of its everyday utility. R/O water used in either/both is a very practical approach from the standpoint of cost and minimal damage to plasticizers and other compounds in the record.
Thanks for the anecdote about four intensive cleaning cycles making a difference. I usually make two vigorous efforts and then I assume that what I hear is permanent damage to the record and not just stubborn dirt. I will try more cycles with some precious, but noisy, records I have found. |
Thommas, Thank you for the kind words. For those that wish to make the investment of time and almost no money, it is sure interesting what steam can do to revive your record collection.
For instance, I have a 1950's Verve 2 LP recording of Ella & The Duke that I bought for .50 cents. The recordings were so dirty they were unplayable. After several minutes of steaming and combo'ing with my VPI, the LPs looked clean but still they were unplayable. After a third and fourth cleaning I set the LPs aside for a few days before a re-play. The differences were like night and day. These mono recordings had life breathed into them. I consider them to be one of my most satisfying finds. Oh, and the Jazz books recount a fair-market value of $100 for a .50 cent investment. |
Well said Creml, Thanks to you, I now have the cleanest most quiet records possible. My perfection steamer used with my RCM, (VPI) makes them better than new. I will never have to buy record cleaning fluids at $25.00 per quart again. My R/O cleaning fluid costs .49 cents per gallon and cleans better or as good as the expensive stuff. Thanks and regards. |
Larryi : I can understand your view point and from that mind-set its hard to see where this thread has anything to offer you. Steam Cleaning is not for everyone and neither are RCM's. For some the use of a dry, static-free brush is all they prefer to use. And that's the way it should be-- options for all. I wish you well. |
Thommas,
I think R/O water works fine. I use it to clean my records. I would bet that most other forms of demineralized water would work fine too (distilled, cation/anion exchange that is not based or replacing water hardening minerals with salt).
I just think that the steam cleaning method is a big hassle compared to wet cleaning and vacuuming. I hardly ever find a used record that does not clean up by using such machines, and I never let my own records get terribly dirty. I have the same Nitty Gritty machine for almost twenty years and it does a good job and is easy to use. I don't use the automatic fluid dispensing feature (I apply fluid from a squirt bottle) and I don't even use the rubber wheel to turn the record (I prefer to turn by hand so I can scrub back and forth). Thus, for me, the cheapest machine would be enough. The idea of having to get out a steam cleaner, fill it with water, wait for it to heat up, clean the record, dry the record, empty the steamer, etc. is just too much trouble for regular, every day use. |
Larryi, Too much Hassle? Then go to your local pet store that sells tropical fish and buy it for .49 cents per gallon. I have tried many different waters in my perfection and R/O gives the most steam and works best for me. Very, very cheap too. I believe, (My own opinion) that RRL, now Mofi is nothing more than R/O water and nothing else. I tried R/O on my VPI 16.5 without steaming, and the R/O works just as well as RRL, no need for rinsing. One could save lots of money if my hunch is correct. I don't have proof, but someone should have RRL, now Mofi analyzed and find out what in it to be sure. |
The statement that distilled water is better than R/O water is factually wrong. Most of the distilled waters one can purchase contain FAR more minerals than R/O water, particularly the magnesium and calcium carbonates and the sulphate compounds that one is most concerned about (the stuff that makes water "hard" and leaves a deposit). I have measured the hardness and conductivity of commercial distilled water and it is not that good. But, I suppose the question is whether such waters are good enough, not whether they are absolutely pure.
I am willing to bet that any soft water, except those softened by ion exchange where sodium chloride is exchanged for other minerals would be acceptable for these purposes.
By the way, I've tried steaming records clean (I used R/O water I make for fish tanks). This does work, but it is such a BIG hassle it is not worth the effort. Get a decent manual vacuum cleaning machine and be done with it. |
Charlie, I have found what looks like a good source of ultra-pure water available in Europe - it is a Germany based company - if you would like to follow the link it details the steps to create this water - looks similar to your description of Peak. http://www.feser-one.com/site/product_info.php?cPath=70&products_id=267 |
Perfection steamer now 14.99 at Walgreens. Bought it yesterday, this is the price on sale at the cash register, no rebate forms or coupons needed. |
Friends, As In have outlined before, "the water source one uses has a direct relationship to the results". Some steamers have reported excellent results with scientific "super pure" water products that can be pricey and other threads detail lots of other folks positive experiences.
For my money, I use a water product that has been distilled,R/O'ed,demineralized and deionized ; a battery water product called Peak and sold @ Pep Boys in the USA. I'm sure other similar products abound outside the states only I do not know where they are sold. Many persons email me they have no other source other than distilled , so go figure. I suggest use what you have and always be on the look out for a higher-grade replacement. |
Distilled water will not steam properly in many steamers, especially the perfection steamer. Distilled, in my perfection and others, I have read and experienced, shoot more of a stream of water with some steam, than all steam, using R/O water. I say use what ever water you choose. |
jwglista,
Distilled water is pure water - the best available. R/O water is no better than distilled water and may be worse if the filters are "worn" or if bacteria is present (which it may not remove).
Regards,
John |
Thanks Crem1,
I wrote up a whole narrative on a very primitive procedure that I used to steam clean vinyl only to find that the forums have a 700 word limit. I did save the diatribe locally. Possibly I will write it up as a review.
I will say this, while not a cureall for worn or damaged vinyl, steam cleaning DOES work. I am quite happy with the results that I am getting especially with bargain-basement records.
Thank you for your patience, support and encouragement!
Kind regards,
Jan |
Sufficient for cleaning around your bathroom faucets but not your records. Also, you will get more steam with R/O than with distilled. |
How is R/O water any better than distilled water? These steamers state that distilled water is sufficient. I was under the impression that the process of distillation removes all minerals, because they can not evaporate with the water and condense. |
Jsmoller, It does appear you have located a water-source suitable for steam cleaning records. The water product you found will certianly keep the steamer from clogging and producing a head of steam relatively free of water borne "junk". All the Best |
Sondale(Alan), Thanks for the kind words , nothing better than to know I assisted a fellow LP person. All the best. Charlie |
I have managed to find what looks to be an extremely good steamer in the the UK - it is called a Hot Shot. It delivers a very fine spray with very few drops of water.
My first attempt to clean a record was on an old Jeff Beck album which had me cringing the first time I listened - after a good clean (on a VPI 16 / Spray / Disc Doctor / Vacuum / Spray / Vacuum cycle) I had a listen - the recording is still not very good (large amounts of distortion in the recording) but it is very listenable - so far so good. Next up was a John Lill recording of the Hammerklavier Sonata - this record is scratched and badly pressed - so the cleaning could not remove these problems - but what came through was a beautiful sound - despite the clicks etc the background was silent - I have not enjoyed listening to this for a long time - it is wonderful to have the music back!! I will make sure I steam clean every record before playing - a convert / zealot.
So many thanks to all on the thread (especially Charlie) for bringing back the life to my vinyl.
Alan |
I bought something called demineralised water at the local supermarket. The usage recommendations state: car radiators, storage batteries, steam irons, garment steamers. No mention on the container as to what process was used to demineralise the water. There is a warning not to drink it. $1.05 for 2 litres.
Would this be ok for vinyl steaming?
Jan |
Hey Charlie, thanks for the email, I appreciate it. Do you just steam after the cleaning fluids or do you also do a water rinse? |
Johnnyb53 & Jsmoller : For a detailed discussion on water (including R/O) please see the Water-related threads below.
For my money I use H2O prepaired for use in batteries; pretty much the finest water product for the cost but availabity may be a problem for some. |
R/O water is reverse osmosis water. All impurities are removed. It can be purchased cheaply at tropical fish stores. |
WillbeWill,
I think you must be very happy today - I thought Wales played magnificently - also thanks for letting us be second.
There is a Lidl near me so I will visit on Monday and see what they have.
Alan |
Excuse my stupidity...
What is R/O water? |
|
I have stopped using record cleaning fluids during steaming. I Just use R/O water in the Perfection steamer, steam twice. I don't think they would come out any better using cleaning fluids. Also it's a cheap way to go too. R/O water costs me .49 cents a gallon at the tropical fish store. Anybody else using R/O water to steam clean their records? Any comments? |
I got a steamer from Walgreens, got it set up next to my VPI RCM. During the vacuum cycle I steam the record at the same time, they come out squeeky clean. I just use a home brew of distilled water, alcohol and dish soap to clean and distilled water in the steamer.
Mike |
UK friends, I hope a store is close to sondale's residence. I still intend to follow-up on the exact wall wart for the SF 227. |
Hi Sondale
I'm in UK (Wales) and caught up with this thread yesterday. Then I happened to be in a Lidl store yesterday afternoon and they had handheld steamers like those described for £15.00. Bought one but haven't tried it yet. |
Sondale, Thanks for all the kind words...It means a lot to me. I have received a voice-mail response. They said that international plug-on' wall-warts are ok. Unfortunately, the message didn't leave a clue to the exact unit to buy. Maybe that's my problem for not being more specific. We shall find out for I left a message for further info.
FYI :My Dad to his passing expressed love for the "English" as he prepaired for the Normandy . Surely, I can do no less in honor of Dad and you than get a clear answer .
God save Your Queen, Charlie |
Charlie, thanks for that - I am surprised that no-one in the UK seems to be steaming! I may end up doing a survey of those available over here as I have about three thousand records a lot of which I do not play because of the amount of dirt / gunge in the bottom of the grooves - this despite cleaning them. This got worse when I started using a MusicMaker cartridge which apart from being very good at playing music is very good at reaching into the bottom of the grooves and extracting all the rubbish! Possibly a reason to go back to spherical diamonds??. Alan |
Sondale, I have taken the oppertunity to contact the Steamfast manufacturer and will share the response as soon as possible. Take Care , Charlie |
This steamer is also not available where I live. I ended up purchasing another hand held unit that was available locally.
I would suggest looking for one that has a right angle adaptor so you can direct the stream of steam down toward the LP if you plan on steaming on the RCM. Mine came with a 70 degree angle adaptor and I steam the LP on my HW 16.5. |
Does anyone know of the equivalent steamers in the UK? I have searched through those available in this country and although they look similar there are no steamers that look exactly the same as the SteamFast - I would order from the States but shipping / fitting a 240/120 V transformer are holding me back! I already have a VPI HW16 which I will use and some Disc Doctor brushes /fluid - all I need is a steamer. Any help would be appreciated.
Alan |
FYI for those interested in buying the "Perfection Steamer" from Walgreen's. You have until March 29 to purchase this unit and receive the $10 rebate. I picked one up yesterday and began steam cleaning some LPs, and I have to say I'm very impressed with the results. I'm hearing a lot more clarity in the higher frequencies, and certain nuances within the music are more pronounced. I "paint" a solution on the record before steaming, consisting of 1 part distilled water, 1 part rubbing alcohol (70%), and a few drops of dish washing detergent. After applying the solution, I let it soak for 2-3 minutes, then blast it with steam, starting on the inside of the record and working my way out to the edge. I then put the record into my Spin-Clean unit, give it a few turns to remove any excess dirt, then flip and repeat. I then put the LP on a dish drying rack to allow it to air dry. I think in the future I am going to perfect this method by modifying a shop vac so that I can vacuum off the LP instead of letting it air dry. Once I begin doing that, I believe my results will be even better. |
Thanks Crem1 for all of your comments and suggestions.
It was never my intention to put cleaning solution into the steamer. The one that I just bought is the teapot design with attachments. I mentioned the garment atachment as it seems to be wide enough to cover the tracks of the disc.
Do you advocate steaming with the standard nozzle?
It appears to me that that with efficent steaming and air drying no chemicals need to be applied to the vinyl.
And, hey if the steamer doesn't work for records, I have 1000 (1001 - 1) other uses for it - hahaha...
Regards,
Jan |
Jan : The consumer hand held steam cleaners that most "steamers" use are of a different type ; they vagely resemble a tea pot with an elongated spout and are for sale all over the internet and local stores.
The garmet steamers can be used but with great caution because they spread the heated zone on the LP to the point that some folks have reported warping . The "secret" to the tea pot type is the fact only steam splashes the LP not excessive heat eliminating the warping factor. Now, I'm not saying several steamers haven't been sucessful with garmet steamers only that chances are that warping MAY occur.
As for DIY record cleaning fluids, the internet abounds with formulas. The important factor is water type. Jan, never put the cleaning fluid in the steamer , only "paint" the LP with the fluid. The cleaner the H2O (read reagent type) all the better. If you have not please read the complete thread , lots of important tips are shaired, the do's and don'ts of record cleaning. Also the water threads are important. Kinda like can't go fishing without a rod , line and hook, same thinking applies to record steaming.
Please remember steaming can not remove owner abuse or manufacturing defects that are at times very hearable with a clean recording. All the best |
You people are driving me nuts!
I just bought a handheld steamer based upon this thread. I found an old junked TT at the kerb this week, stripped off/out everything except the platter, motor and mat. With the garment steaming brush attachment and microfibre cloths, I reckon I will have an excellent vinyl cleaning solution.
I would like to DIY record cleaning fluid but I cannot seem to find a surfacant, ie., Triton X-114, Monolan 2000 here in AU (Sydney).
Is there anyone in this forum from DownUnder that knows where I can find it in small quantities?
Thanks and regards,
Jan |
Minkwelder : Correct. The product is red in color and does resemble a "a teapot". Should you already own a steam cleaner, use it as long as the product is in working order. Please be mindful that a good water source is a must. I use Peak Battery Water sold nationally @ Pep Boys for $3-4 per Gal. Any "Q's" feel free to email me. All the best. Charlie |
Crem1: Is the Perfection product that you are using called a steam cleaner? Does it look like a teapot with a long nozzle?
I almost pulled the trigger on a VPI 16.5, but now I think I'll try the steamer with a DIY vacuum. I can't wait to try it!! |
Readers: A trip to Walgreens revealed that they continue to offer a $10 rebate on the Perfection Steamer($20). For those of you that have not "steamed" but want to, please buy before the rebate offer is over. |
Dan : Support like yours confirms what I suspect to be a fact; Steam Cleaning is equal to , if not superior to, Record Cleaning Machines (RCM) & dispeles the fable that collectors must expend huge sums on cleaning toys to enjoy music.
Steam Cleaning gives the LP collector options in the selection of record cleaning fluids and experience if fluid A is actually worth the effort over fluid B.
Should you already own a RCM ( as I) "Great", use its features to enhanse record cleaning. If not, no problem Steaming can do it all for you. |
After having purchased and used the "Perfection" steam cleaner, (I also use the downward pointng nozzle), I am firmly on the steam powered wagon! I now no longer feel compelled to buy an RCM, the grooves are coming out cleaner than any other cleaning method I have used.
Charlie, you deserve a hardy pat on the back, you have saved my bacon!
Thanks much,
Dan |
FYI : I have been looking for a record cleaning brush that would full-fill any issues related to cleaning Lp groves. Previously , I note a find in the @ Dollar Store , a back scrubber that did appear to be a "Best Find" for one $.
I now believe that the company "Quickie" has a superior back brush attached to a "Y" revolving arm that can be separated from that "Y" . The brisels are superior to any other I have found and the cost is under $5.00. Look for it in your grocery market. |
Oilmanmojo: I am humbeled by your recommendation.
I know that you have advanced tangencial arms by light years , and I feel of all the folks that have local-cred you are # 1.
This steam cleaning process is so far ahead of the commerical products they can never catch up. Althought, in the regular discource is haven't recommended multiable steamings, I know that a second cleaning exceeds what can be pondered by one step only. Recently, I was given a 1,000+ record collection of 1st edition tube/soild state LPs fron the 1960's. For a few weeks I have been working on selected copies of origional Stones, Doors and Hendrix besides hundreds that I aquired.
Steaming with or without RCM's is fantasik , I thank the God for giving me the insite . A clean LP played by a good playback system is a gift from above. |
Charlie, I have taken your advice this weekend and purchased a steamer for my records. I have taken some of my recent purchases (moldy, dirty records) along with a few of my fathers old bluegrass records and did a lot of experimenting. I have used several commercial products but tend to prefer my own cleaning fluid when it comes to cleaning but for the experimenting, i chose records that were pretty grungy or just could not get clean with normal methods using disk doctor solution or my own solution. I will not bore people with every detail, but i can solidly recommend the steaming for any record you are cleaning. I have an old flatts and scruggs album that my dad used to play but it has not had an album cover or sleeve for at least 25 years. it is pretty scratched up and the grooves were full of junk. After two steam cleanings, the grooves are perfectly clean. There are some surface pops but nothing comes off on the stylus and once the music is on, the surface noise is not very loud compared to the music. I had another from this stack that i had cleaned via my normal methods using several types of cleanings including the diskdoctor solution and it was not clean. One cleaning with the steam process (as part of a cleaning regiment), the results paralleled the scruggs and flatts record. I steam after I apply the enzyme solution and have done a little preliminary scrubbing to ensure the liquid is in all the grooves. Then i spin the record and ensure the steam plume covers the entire record (takes about 5 revolutions). then I scrub the record with a diskdoctor brush and vacuum. I then rinse twice using pure water and clean brushes vacuuming between each rinse. On a thrift store record (moldy and dirty) it cleaned it up to the point there were no pops or clicks. On one of the thrift store records, there were some pops but upon close examination, i believe them to be surface scratches.
THe process works well with my enzyme/detergent wash solution and works well with the diskdoctor solution. The pointed nozzle (i have one that points down ) is plenty hot but does not cover a large surface area hence the record does not bow up as i have heard others report. I hold the steamer to the point the contact point is about the size of a dime or a little smaller.
In conclusion, I think your idea is a great advance towards cleaning and await your report on the bacteria approach. My industry using bacteria to breakdown waste water contaminents (organic) so i believe, once again you are on something. |
