It's a very old post, however, I would like to add my experiences for whoever wants to further updates
I have set up MPS-5, Nagra CDC, EMM CDSA and chord red reference mk2 in my own listening system.
Above sources have very different characteristics and I would like to conclude above listed sources are very equal and no actual superiority.
MPS-5 showed very detailed sonicity, trebles, and musicality. very good at classical music genre.
Nagra CDC is frequently undervalued probably due to its size, however, I think it has a very neutral and balanced sound. So, Nagra CDC is very easy to be matched with various systems. I personally like a long lasting Nagra record system and their know-how for Nagra cdc in my own system.
EMM CDSA has a very soft and emotional characteristic. The sound of it is very fine and enough as a source itself but built quality of mechanical perspective is rather questionable for my personal view.
Chord red reference mk2 is a very nice source for both sound and a mechanical view. I think this source is very versatile and suitable for most of the audiophiles.
Happy listening!
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anybody had a chance to compare the Playback Designs with the Berkeley Audio Alpha Dac on redbook? |
As of a few days ago the wait was only a few days.
Dave |
Is the Playback Design available or is there a long wait for it? |
I have no reasons not to belive you. That was more of a joke. Should have put "j/k" at the end. |
Elberoth2,
Both Andreas and Kevin left EMM Labs and VSA respectively on their own volition they were not usurped by JT out of these companies. Moreover, they are both much happier now (i know first hand) doing what they love and using their great talent to develope their very own designs for our benefit. I have both of their products and couldn't be happier!:) |
Then Jonathan Tinn must be regarded as a prime company dismantler in hi-end audio, LOL !
First VSR, now EMM Labs ... |
Andreas Koch up until several months ago, was a partner/designer and vice president of EMM Labs. Before that he was with Sony/Philips. I believe he was in charge of the Sony Sonoma DSD workstation project which uses EMM gear.
Two different times I've sent EMM products to Andreas for repair under warrenty. Since he lives in the U.S it saved me from going through customs.
Andreas is a very mild, modest and conservative person. You won't hear him brag or exaggerate about his product. Because I trust what Andreas tells me, I just bought a Playback Designs Player from Jonathan Tinn. And as for Jonathan, He's always treated me more than fair over several years of transactions with him. Customer service is first rate.
Yes, it's a new player. The "players" are not new and have a proven tract record. The reviews will be coming. Since it was just released, it will take a few months before you see it in print. If your skeptical wait for the reviews but for me, well, I just couldn't wait.
Frank |
I've heard that Andreas used to work for Emm, but I don't know in what capacity. He apparently has really good digital designing chops, no matter what his assignment was at Emm.
Dave |
Andreas Koch ? The former vice president of EMM Labs ? Never knew that he handled the design part at EMM. Always thought that he was an export manager. |
06-30-08: Maxx2man asked:
"where is the playback designs manufactured? also, who is the designer?"
USA; Andreas Koch. |
where is the playback designs manufactured? also, who is the designer? |
Sorry guys,
the point I was trying to make was whether it is a SACD player or not is not important.
If you do go for an SACD player (I understand this thread is about a good single box for redbook playback) the bonus is that if you play redbook on it it will use the DSD upsampling and obviously if you do play an SACD disk you gain from its greater resolution anyway.
I have a pretty good SACD player and it makes little difference whether I play redbook or DSD. They all sound amazing. Very rarely do I find myself complaining about the disk type. If its a good recording, its a good recording! |
Chadeffect said:
"you mention redbook playback. The Emm lab and DCS give you the choice of playing either SACD or redbook disks. The bonus i guess being they upsample rebook to dsd."
The Playback Designs MPS-5 also upsamples to DSD. My redbook library took a GIANT leap forward when I added this piece. It sounds wonderful with redbook. Now I need to dig around to find a disc that I've got both in CD and SACD to see how they compare. The CD reproduction is so incredible that I don't find my self switching over to SACD or vinyl now. It really organic, detailed and rich.
Dave |
I would recommend this giant slayer of a DAC namely, the Accustic Arts Reference Tube DAC2. It has been compared to the likes of dcs/Emm/Chord and many preferred it instead. Check Teajay's head-turning review at Accustic Arts Reference Tube DAC2It was his reviews of Accustic Arts DAC Mk3/4 and later the Tube DAC that attracted me to check it out and when the homework was done, I bought a DACMk4 first and then the Ref Tube DAC as in accordance with his DAC evolution. Teajays very detailed reviews portrayed the same findings I had when auditioning Accustic Arts when compared to other brands, so it was quite easy to decide. Could not recommend it earlier as Teajay mentioned recently that it was no longer being brought in into the States as AAudioImports, the former distributor no longer markets it. Then later I found that Accustic Arts has changed hands to another US company called Musical Sounds recently. Thus it's still a good and viable option for you to check, assuming you are from the States. Their new accompanying transport called the Reference Drive 2 should also be launching soon (this was shown at the recent Munich show) The new US distributor is at the below URL Musical Sounds
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Max2man/Teddybear,
you mention redbook playback. The Emm lab and DCS give you the choice of playing either SACD or redbook disks. The bonus i guess being they upsample rebook to dsd.
Why do you find redbook playback bad on the Emm lab Teddybear? |
There will be a Playback Designs web site, they've just focused on production of the product first. They're building production capacity right now and meeting current demand.
Getting ahead with marketing is an easy mistake to make. The current strategy is apparently working for them and will be enhanced as production develops, reviews come into place and they're ready to face the market's full force.
Dave |
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VOSP or VRDS, the fact that the company that tries to market such an expensive product doesn't have a web page is very ... weird.
I would like to know WHO designed this products and what are the specs.
I have a strange feeling that I'm not alone. |
I don't get your point Bar81. The ball is not hidden. Is not the VOSP line one of the very best??? Is selection of a particular model going to change your decsision as to whether to give it a listen or not?
What if TEAC built a custom part, based on the VOSP, to fit their chassis or include something not in the stock line?? If Emm used Phillips and PD used Esoteric, would that fact alone make one totally unacceptable and the other a top candidate?
Dave |
Too bad, hiding the ball isn't the way to make potential customers comfortable. |
VOSP is all they want to say, for now.
Dave |
Which one? It would be fantastic if someone could just indicate from the pdf file at the bottom of this page (note that there are multiple implementations of VOSP as well as VRDS) which particular VRDS or VOSP implementation is in this player:
http://teac.com/esoteric/Disc_transports_VOSP_and_VRDS-Neo.html |
The transport is an Esoteric SACD/CD. Web site to come... ;-)
Dave |
That wasn't what I was trying to say. I don't particularly care if it's on a web page but where are the complete specs *including* transport type? |
06-25-08: Bar81 said:
"I think for 10K, there should be something in writing besides what's out there."
Well, there will be printed writing. Playback Designs is only into the second month of a new product launch. Reviewers actually have in hand production models, rather than pre-production prototypes. If you wait for the print reviews, then you'll be looking at $15,000, not 10k.
Print, verbal, digital, they're only words. Changing the format of the words doesn't change their value. As always, you need to consider the source and place your reliance accordingly.
Anyone actually considering a purchase should consider the validity of the reviews of Mike Lavigne, Ted Smith and David Robinson. They're on record in writing, maybe only digital, but that's my point, putting it on paper doesn't change it's value. A serious prospective buyer must also consider that waiting for other reviewers and, in partcular, waiting on a printed review will cost $5000, because the price will certainly have increase by then.
This is a classic risk vs. reward analysis. Your point is well taken, but we're in a digital age and information is available quicker than it used to be. You either take advantage of that or you don't.
Dave |
I think for 10K, there should be something in writing besides what's out there. |
Bar81, your lack of faith is understandable. I wavered myself and got on the phone with Jonathan, Andreas, Mike Lavigne and others. Given my appetite for risk, it was worth it, but I'd suspect that most would not find that risk acceptable.
Frankly, besides the comforting discussions with the principals, the words of Mike, Ted Smith and David Robinson are what really set me in motion. I think most prospective owners will want to wait until another CES has gone by, some reviews show up in print and a few more dealers sign up. The risk profile will drop over time.
Dave |
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Concur, although I think it would have been fine if they had kept the edges straight instead of having them draw back. For me though, my big issue with that player is the scarcity of information; you would think that if it was using an Esoteric transport, that would be prominently indicated. I don't have 10K of faith in me. |
Arbuckle, it's not ugly at all in person. Hopefully a professional photographer will soon take some shots with proper lighting and you'll see the fine finish and actual "handsome" exterior that goes with the superlative internal technology.
Dave |
The Playback Designs player looks like one of the vintage VCR players from the early 80's. Maybe it is different in person, but it does look cheap. I can't believe they would make something that expensive that ugly. |
when i started this thread, i was looking for opinions of these players' ability to play redbook - not sacd. |
Chadeffect, Nagra and Chord don't play SACD, and Meitner is lousy with red book. And how many DSD SACD-s are out there with decent sound? |
i do not disagree Bar81 that's what I said first about well known manufacturer with reliability for example Accuphase, dCS, Esoteric......but sonics as well! |
That's very Meitner of you ;) My philosophy has always been reliability first because no matter how good a unit sounds, if it's not working you're getting zero performance (i.e., less performance than any working CDP). Of course, if the sonics aren't there, then all the reliability in the world isn't going to help you :) |
most important is the sonics and then the looks and of course a reliable and well-known manufacturer especially in digital gear. |
The Playback Designs display is bright. Since it's not blue or green it photographs harshly, but in person it's VERY easy to read and understand.
Dave |
Hi Dave,
Maybe the pictures i have seen of the Playback design have been unfortunate.
The display looks cheap which is a bad start.
The Chord equipment sure has a look and probably the cd player suffers the worst with the cd lid placed like that. Their amps i have heard sounded very good. I can see why some wouldnt like the fussy design though. Nicely finished when you seem them up close. |
Chadeffect, my friend, the Playback Design MPS-5 is not ugly at all in person. The pictures have not done it justice. When you see it in person I think you'll agree.
I nominate the Chord as the ugliest, funkiest design.
Dave |
Metronome make some great sounding players. The T2i signatrure is good. The Spectral SDR4000 may be good, I havent heard it, but it is the ugliest player in the world closely followed by the Playback design.
No matter how good the Metronome is and the Spectral may be on red book, they cannot compete with a SOTA SACD player playing SACD. Although having said that an SACD is only as good as the recording... |
@Elberoth2- Adam, yes very recently I changed, I've let dCS Puccini to burn-in and this weekend I had a shootout with the new Emmlabs owner and 2 more audiophiles, well the Puccini having much wider soundstage, more transparency (it's like a shower in music!) more live and vivid but as smooth and above all it was the first time I understood that Emm cdsa se had some kind of glare and blurr and mixed some instruments, although I still think cdsa se it's still a fantastic player, Puccini is another league and very musical too.
The most impressive thing is what it does to plain vanilla redbook cds with dsd upsampling!!!
All the cabling was the same and both players used 2 Stealth Dream digital power cords.
And the whole feeling of construction and extra options is amazing. I have not connected yet directly to my amplifier so I still have things to check.
For me both players (Puccini and cdsa se) are the most exciting balance of smooth musical sound but also precise and revealing (even warm sounding in a good way). Some experience with non-oversampling dacs was dramatic, yep these dacs masking the music but hides things in attempt to be musical as I concluded the hard thing is to keep it musical but with all the information and right timbre as well and in that area new dCS and Emmlabs are among the best representatives. |
Why don't you try Metronome T2i sig or new transport converter combo T3A/C3A , Spectral SDR 4000 on red book is better then Scarlatti. |
Dazzdax,
I couldnt say whether a top of top of the line vinyl playback or the Scarlatti is better.
The Scarlatti is stunning and I doubt any analogue system has the dynamic range or noise floor of the DCS. The usual complaints people have towards digital playback I dont think exist with the Scarlatti. I guess only you can decide in the end though. |
@ Maxx2man - Chord Red Reference got a mixed review from HiFi News (UK). You may want to check it out.
@ Kops - did you change from CDSA to Puccini ? How do they compare. I know that you were a huge fan of EMM. |
@Maxx2man , I hear it in Munich, it was a relief when the Chrod substituted with the vinyl (Continuum)......
@Dazzdax,
Chris regarding your question it depends on the cd collection or vinyl collection one has....if I had thousand of vinyls I'd invest in the best possible analogue and a good decent one box cd-player, but since I have thousands of original cds I'd invest in Scarlatti if I could.
For the moment the dCS Puccini transfroms my red book cds in what was promised many years ago...MUSIC, something that even my former Emmlabs CDSA SE could not do in such degree, so I could only imagine what the Scarlatti can achieve! |
the Chord Red Reference got the highest rating EVER from hi-fi choice. hasn't anyone heard it? |
Regarding the Playback Designs player- I received mine yesterday and am enormously impressed. My previous digital was the EMM Labs CDSA SE. player. The Playback Designs straight out of the box, with 30 minutes of playing time betters the EMM Labs across the board. Most noticeable improvements were- much deeper, better defined bass - significantly blacker background - better image definition and soundstage focus and depth - more extended highs, without ANY glare or edge. One would expect that with several hundred hours of break-in the unit will continue to improve in the above areas, among others that I haven't noticed yet.
I much prefer the looks, and build quality, of the Playback Designs over the EMM Labs. An industrial designer was clearly utilized and it shows in the much more sophisticated look and substantial feel of the PD. The EMM Labs is a cheap, thin metal box with rudimentary design. I have to say that the look of a component is of, absolutely, secondary consideration when compared with it's sonic performance. And, I would doubt that the EMM Labs player was sonically hindered by the design/build quality. That being said, I think the PD is a way better package ergonomically and visually. The transport reads discs much faster and the remote works alot better, as well.
I'm writing this post in my office, down a hall from my listening room. In listening casually as I type this what keeps drawing my attention is how un-digitally natural this player sounds. I can't wait for it to break-in. |
06-20-08: Arbuckle said:
"I am not sure about this new Playback Designs player. Seems as if one review (which may or may not be planted) is sturring the pot. What I do know is that it could easily be the ugliest player out there. So if you listen with the lights off and shut your eyes it may be ok."
There's actually three reviews by Mike Lavigne, Ted Smith and David Robinson(his preliminary, but positive). Mike has no ownership interest in the maker and disclosed his long term relationship. Anyway, there's no reason those three would say it was good if not. Comparisons are to Emm's best.
The pictures don't do it justice, it looks much better in person, not ugly at all.
The dirth of reviews is due to the very recent release. For someone considering purchase right now, then they may not want to consider it; however, most people making purchases of this dollar amount can generally wait a few months if this seems like something they'd like.
I'll be adding a review in a couple of weeks, but my comparison will be to vinyl and lesser digital components. Still, it may have some value to some.
Dave |
Which sounds better: a very good vinyl set up or full Scarlatti set up?
Chris |
