Daedalus Ulysses

I'm pretty sure Almarg has them.

I have heard the Ulysses a couple times in different settings and other Daedalus models many times at shows, most recently at the CAF yesterday.  I would say the Daedalus sound is an acquired taste.  Some people love them; others don’t.  I am in the latter category.  

Every single time I have heard a Daedalus I hear a plastic-sounding coloration in the bass that bothers me.  This clearly does not bother everyone since there are many very happy Daedalus owners.  

If you like the Daedalus house sound, I think you would be very pleased with the Ulysses.  It has good extension in the bass and highs, is pretty detailed and coherent sounding, and has good imaging.  It is also fairly efficient although I have doubts about its rated sensitivity (96db as I recall).

Interesting comment salectric, Can you expound upon your comment? Not sure I get what you mean by "plastic-sounding coloration". I do appreciate all comments favorable or unfavorable.

Thanks for the mention, Kijanki.

Yes, I have owned Daedalus Ulysses speakers since 2010. I continue to be delighted with them, and I have no plans to replace them in the foreseeable future.

My pair was one of the first that were produced with an “all poly” crossover, meaning that polypropylene capacitors are used in the crossover network. Previously electrolytics had been used. More recently the present v.2 version of the Ulysses was introduced, incorporating various other changes, but I have been sufficiently happy with my version that I have not felt motivated to incur the risk, downtime, and expense that would be involved in sending them on what would be a 6000 mile round-trip to be retrofitted.

For context, my listening is about 90% classical, 5% rock and pop, and 5% miscellaneous. My room is 22 x 13 feet, with the central third of the rear wall opening to another room. The speakers are about four feet in front of the short wall. My listening distance is 12 feet. Many of the classical symphonic recordings I listen to have particularly wide dynamic range, and consequently an amp/speaker combination that cannot cleanly produce an SPL of 105 db at my listening position would be a non-starter for me. The Ulysses have no trouble accomplishing that with the Pass XA25 I presently use, as well as with the VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII I previously used. Designer/manufacturer Lou Hinkley often demonstrates with higher powered ModWright amplification, with which I have no experience.

I agree with Salectric’s characterization of the sound of the speakers, except that in my room I have never heard anything resembling a plastic coloration in the bass. I would characterize the sound as rich, full-bodied, dynamic, fast, and detailed, but with no hint of excessive brightness, and perhaps even a bit of rolloff in the treble.  Owners often refer to Daedalus speakers as being non-fatiguing and natural sounding. Overall, it is a very nicely balanced speaker for my taste.

I would also emphasize that the Ulysses’ combination of an exceptionally flat and benign impedance curve, relatively high sensitivity, and high power handling capability makes them extremely versatile with respect to choice of amplification.

Regarding sensitivity, btw, the v.2 version of the Ulysses is spec’d at 97.5 db/2.83 volts/1 meter, with a 6 ohm nominal impedance. The version I purchased was spec’d at the time as 98 db/1 watt/1 meter, also with a 6 ohm nominal impedance. 2.83 volts into 6 ohms is about 1.33 watts, which is about 1.2 db more than 1 watt. So the present 97.5 db/2.83 volt/1 meter spec corresponds to about 96.3 db/1 watt/1 meter.

Finally, I'll add that Lou Hinkley is a pleasure to deal with.

Regards,

--Al

P.S: Tom (Falconquest), I received your message. I would just add to what I wrote above that I have no experience with Legacy speakers.

 

@falconquest I am on my third pair of Daedalus Audio speakers, having started with the original DA-1's, then the DA-1.1s (sent back twice for upgrades) and now the Apollo's. I good friend had the Ulysses for a while before going to a Wheelfi horn system. He had them in a large dedicated room with top flight equipment. My experience with the Ulysses mirrors Al's. I loved them. Compared to my DA-1.1s they provided more specific, yet holographic imaging. I am not a fan of the stands which are typically used to elevate the Ulysses to the appropriate listening height. Though attractive and designed to match the speakers, I'm not a fan of putting tall, relatively narrow towers on top of small narrow boxes. Maybe because I have a young child, but even without kids if I owned them I would be constantly worried about someone knocking them off the stands. Not sure if you are looking at purchasing a used pair or new but Lou has made some significant upgrades with his Apollo series and he is using a new tweeter throughout his entire range that is significantly more extended than the model it replaces. So, while Al correctly (IMHO) describes his Ulysses sound as slightly rolled off on top the same cannot be said for models with the new tweeter, which is MUCH more extended, detailed and yet equally non-fatiguing. If you are seriously considering Daedalus I would reach out to Lou and see what model he recommends at your price point. You can also PM me or post that information here and I'm sure myself and others would be happy to make a recommendation.

Well, I have to be real here. I'm sure the Apollo is a wonderful speaker but spending $23,000 for a pair is not possible for me. What I would be concerned with is the ability of the Ulysses to produce the tonally accurate, crisp and articulate sound of a cymbal played delicately. I want to be able to discern one cymbal timbre from another. Can they do that?

I have the model below the Ulysses , the Argos V2s . I haven't found anything "plastic sounding" about the bass , and , as Al characterized the Ulysses, the Argos are also a very balanced speaker. As far as the sensitivity, I drive the Argos with ease with either of these 3 which I rotate in and out every 3 weeks simply of the sound difference (room 28X20X10)

Line Magnetic 518 IA 22 wpc 845 tube based integratedFinale Audio 7189 MK2 22wpc EL84/7189 tube based integratedModwright LS100 pre & KWA100SE power (125wpc)

I just spent 30 minutes typing a post which disappeared when I tried to post it.  Grrrr!!  I will try again later.

Ha! Sorry for that, give me the cliffs notes version if you can. Thanks salectric!

“Plastic sounding bass” is a bit ambiguous I understand but that’s the term that pops into my mind when I hear Daedalus speakers.  “Synthetic” is another term.  Perhaps this relates to the cone material or perhaps to some unevenness in the response or perhaps some resonances.  I don’t know.  All I know is that I hear this coloration when I listen to Daedalus speakers.  

For some context, my speakers at home use vintage paper cone 15” woofers.  These sound fast and detailed and to my ears are less colored, but they do not go as deep in the bass as Daedalus woofers.  

I am not surprised that a number of Daedalus owners disagree with my characterization.  As I said before, many people love Daedalus speakers, but some do not.

My suggestion is that you listen carefully to a pair of Daedalus speakers (any model) before deciding to buy the Ulysses.  If you aren’t bothered by the bass, then you will likely love the Ulysses.  But if you do hear problems, you can expect to hear them in the Ulysses too.

That’s the Cliff Notes version.

If it is of any help, I also listened to these speakers at Capital Audio Fest over the weekend. I went a few times just to check if it was a source material or maybe something related to me at that moment that was not right. It seemed that people listening were very pleased. However, for me that was the room with the sound I really did not want to hear. I agree with salectric's posts to the last letter. It was not the sound I could get used to or start appreciating over time. Obviously, careful listening before buying is a must but I think this, in fact, can be figured out after a few minutes. If you have a Daedalus receptor, they will be golden. If you do not, skip them.

If anyone is looking to purchase a pair of Daedalus Ulysses speakers someone on UsMart is selling for $6500. You can get the final v2 upgrade for $2500 and pretty much have a $20k pair of speakers for $9k. Just wanted to put that out there.

Well, I know @salectric ’s tastes (he’s a good customer) and I get what he’s saying.
Take both his and my comments with a grain of salt. I’ve never heard anything that moved me the way an alnico 15" Altec woofer does.

I have to however, maintain at least one "mainstream" listening room for my clients, and the Ulysses fill the bill nicely.

My Ulysses are quite a few years old and are updated only to the point of the polyester cap replacement. I run them with the maple base plate but without that silly riser box for reasons stated earlier. I found the maple base plate to work better in my room than the outrigger feet Lou started supplying. Different rooms / different strokes.

I’ve run them with as low as a very weak 2A3 amplifier (Serious Stereo ... more like a 45 in terms of output - 1w), and am currently driving them with my NiWatt 300B amplifiers.

While they’re nowhere near the claimed 96dB, they’re an easy drive for a tube amplifier. If I were to guess, I’d say they’re a real world 92dB.

They are not imaging champs, but they do OK in this regard.

Tonally, I’d say they have a BBC balance, which is why many would say they don’t have an extended top end. They’re a very fatigue free speaker that delivers the goods, with plenty of insight into the musical performance. If you’re not unraveling complex musical lines through your Ulysses, then something else is wrong with your system.

Lou Hinkley is one of the good guys in hi-fi.

Do I prefer a serious pair of horns with a 15" driver? You bet, but then again, I’m in the minority with respect to most tastes.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

I really appreciate the feedback from everyone including salectric and Thom. Everyone’s comments have been very helpful and given me a lot to think about. I only learned recently that some people love cilantro and others absolutely hate it. People that hate it have a particular gene that causes it to taste like soap to them (I’m one of those). So, do genes affect our predisposition to certain types of sound generation? I don’t know, but we all know that no two of us are alike and that creates a marketplace for equipment. My take away from this is that tried and true lesson that we should all adhere to which is try before you buy. Thanks again everyone.

Falconquest, let us know what you decide to do.

Not to derail things further, but I wanted to clarify that my 15" woofers are actually Jensens (the model used in the Jensen Imperial horn), not Altecs.

I think Thom and Al are right on the money. I don't know if I would characterize Daedalus as an acquired taste. To my ears far too many other speakers fall into that category because they don't sound quite "right". Are there speakers that image a bit better--yes! Are there speakers that deliver slightly more detail--yes! Are there speakers that have more obvious bass energy--yes again! Are there speakers that are as coherent, deliver honest tonality, are as musically engaging and balanced top to bottom--very, very few! What I like about Daedalus speakers is that they look and sound beautiful, you can drive them with anything, and they sound great in any room. Sure, there are speakers that do this or that better, but at the end of the day many people who own other well-regarded or better known brands typically move on to something else because something just isn't "right". To my ears Lou's speakers are among the most "right" sounding available at any price. 

As for the bass--I don't get the "plastic" or "synthetic" characterization. What I do get is that some folks might criticize Daedalus speakers as not having enough bass energy. I think Lou is very careful about how his speakers deliver bass, opting for a musically natural response that does not emphasize parts of the low frequencies to increase the "wow" factor. Deep bass is there when it is present on the recording and delivered in a very tuneful manner that is not overblown--no bumps, humps or thumps. I think Lou feels if you want to go really deep and increase the weight of the bass this is best done by adding a sub rather than trying to deliver this through other, less natural sounding means. 

@falconquest sorry, I wasn't suggesting the Apollo necessarily. Not sure what your budget is but merely pointing out that Lou has a variety of models at lower price points with new features (new tweeter, new woofer design, trim rings, midrange housing, crossover elements, etc.) that will get you close to or beyond an older pair of Ulysses. For example, the new Studio Muse, in a smaller room, may knock your socks off. 

Although not about the Ulysses below are links to a couple of recent reviews of Daedalus speakers that you may or may not care to read ; one on the Apollo; one on the Studio Muse

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/10/27/daedalus-audio-apollo-speakers-review/
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/daedalus-audio-muse-studio-loudspeaker/

@dodgealum --

... I don't know if I would characterize Daedalus as an acquired taste. To my ears far too many other speakers fall into that category because they don't sound quite "right". Are there speakers that image a bit better--yes! Are there speakers that deliver slightly more detail--yes! Are there speakers that have more obvious bass energy--yes again! Are there speakers that are as coherent, deliver honest tonality, are as musically engaging and balanced top to bottom--very, very few!

Would love to listen to Daedalus speakers at some point - it appears they're "voiced" quite close to my liking (also according to poster @almarg and others, and how they describe their sound), but unfortunately I've never encountered them here in Europe (i.e.: Scandinavia). The hardwood finish is beautiful as well making them look like acoustic instruments, and overall I'm quite sure they're speakers that somehow "hardwires" the sound into a musically cohesive experience - one to be cherished for decades, if you would. I'm extremely happy with what I got already (all-horns), but Daedalus speakers (as "conventional," direct radiating dittos) have had my attention for some time now..

Anyone care to comment on Daedalus from Capital Audio Fest? I saw a few references in other threads.

I own a pair of Daedalus Poseidon, but have listened to most of Lou speakers when I went to visit him except for the Zeus, I came from Blades , Magnepan 1.7i and another couple of other speakers listened to and auditioned plenty , if I ever do replace my Poseidon would be with either with the Apollo 11 or Trenner & Friedl "Pharoah " or the Tidal Akira Speakers which maybe way out of what I want to spend on Speakers the cheaper option may be the T & F Pharoah which go for between 8K to 13K and are very musical But so far I am very happy with what I have they probably image best in my room , tonally yes ! very accurate crisp & articulate yes ! you can, not only distinguish between cymbals but even layers of different instrument! providing if you do have the right electronics , Plasticy Bass ??? no way! but true it does lack a bit of bass but when Bass is there in the recording you can feel the vibration right on your sitting position , I for one prefer not to use a subwoofer although own a Dr. Hsu VTF MK11 with a15 " paper woofer I use the Sub for HT which is a totally different system from my two channel listening. Ask to audition the speakers with someone living close to you or call Lou most people seem to like the new 10 " woofer on the Apollo series I for some reason prefer the two 8" woofers I think they are pretty fast tonally accurate and just about the right Bass when I play Mahler Symphony 7 with Ivan Fischer or my favorite test recording of Bach Sonatas & Partitas by Giulano Carmignola the Violin sounds so realistic even the plucking the strings with bow you can feel it and hear the crispy ness I also tend to agree they may not be 97.5 efficient but have no  problem driving them with low power tube amps.

@falconquest

Here's link to partime audipophile's impressions for Daedalus Apollo room

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/11/08/daedalus-audio-lta-lampizator-wywires-vpi-soundsmith-caf-2...

I own the Ulysses V2 after owning the Wilson Sophia 1. I found these both to have very similar characteristics in their sound: balanced, high clarity and transparency, great sound staging. But the Daedalus had a greater "presence" and realism that was immediately apparent. I think that they really deliver on the "holographic" or "3D" aspect of sound that they claim to have. A clear winner for me. 

Thanks facten, see that’s my concern; they demo with their subs and I really don’t want to deal with subs. My biggest concern is low end performance which I can only barely grasp through youtube videos which I know are lacking. I really like the realism of the Daedalus sound though.

Saw the Studio Muse in one of the standard size rooms at CAF. Really sounded good. Not sure what it was paired with. Have to go back and look at my notes. The larger room down stairs which had the Apollo’s in it was not as impressive as the Studio Muse room. Could have been the room for sure. It was a lot of space to pressurize. 

@szelda53 Interesting--the Apollo 11 and the Studio Muse both have the same Daedalus house sound but present the music a little differently due to the driver configurations. The Apollo 11 is meant for larger rooms (obviously--bigger speaker) and will perform very well in open floorplans where a wide sweetspot may be preferred. The Studio Muse (and the larger Apollo with the same driver configuration) offer a different presentation with more focused imaging in a smaller sweet spot. I first heard the original Muse at CAF a few years ago and fell in love with the way the clustered driver array presented such a coherent sound with very realistic image size and location. When Lou came out with the larger Apollo with the same driver array I just had to have them. If I had a large, open space I'd have gone for the Apollo 11's, which present more similar to the way my DA-1.1s did. But with a small room and my listening chair not too far from the speakers the clustered array really is spectacular.

I wrote a detailed review on the Ulysses here on audiogon

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-daedalus-ulysses-v2-speaker?highlight=Daedalus


I love them - they are so natural and just let the music flow.

Lou is currently building me a pair of Apollo 11s.

I flew up to Washington state and Lou spent time with me in his shop and I was very taken with the sound and such a wonderful experience, thank you.

You can visit Fenrdale, WA between Seattle and Vancouver - great place for whale watching

or you can check out the shows Lou does on the Daedalus page on audiocircle and also for the possible opportunity to hear the speakers in someones home.

all the best

I play upright bass - you won’t need subs unless you play very low register movies, synth bass, etc
natural low end.

I have heard only at shows and wasnt impressed.

Recently used a pair of REL T/9i they supposedly go down to 28HZ , I am sending them back to get either REL G 1 MK 2 or a pair of REL S/812 as has been suggested to me I can say this My Poseidon's did sound a bit more ( smidge)fuller  don't know why? I did find the mid's  seem to be more clear ?? even though   I only listen to 2 channel music on this system rest of my equipment being QuickSliver 60 watts mono's with high damping factor , Wywire Daedalus Speaker Cables 2 sets of WYwire Diamond Interconnects,  Don Sach Pre-2, PS audio Directstream DAC with Bridge card, Oppo 205 for transport  For room treatment 1st  reflection points treated  with recently acquired GIK panels other than  that heavy curtains  and strategically placed sofa and furniture I use the Radio Shack SPL meter  consistently to achieve a 75 db level but only listen in at about 68 db at the most 

Interesting thread of comments here. I won't add too much as many of the comments are honestly subjective and I do appreciate the way even those who don't like the speakers relate their comments as personal subjective opinions and not as absolutes. Kudos to all!
I am a bit surprised about the comment on the woofer's sounding "plastic", since these are paper cone/cloth surround high sensitivity designs. Much like the old school pro woofers. I designed the first iteration of these almost thirty years ago for pro use, so they had to be highly efficient and fast. (The original 8" driver clocks in at about 96db sensitivity). I think that where some feel that the systems are not as effective as stated has more to do with tonal balance than actual sensitivity?
The other comment I will make is that the designs have evolved radically.
Especially in the last few years we have made huge leaps forward.
The basic sound signature of musicality, dynamics and lack of fatigue has been maintained, but the level of sonic quality has radically improved. Over the years we have continually refined the design of our proprietary woofers and all the other drivers have evolved. The Eton tweeter we have used for over a decade was replaced with a new model Eton that has much more extension and clarity, to the degree that I feel it is one of the most balanced musical dome tweeters available. We have worked with local metal shops to design mounting rings that further reduce distortion. We are currently fine tuning the crossover changes for a new midrange driver that is more open and phase correct. There have also been numerous crossover, wire harness, and cabinet refinements in the past couple of years. Bottom line is that the Daedalus speaker which you heard a couple years ago may only have the "house sound" but not reflect the sophistication of the current models.