unsound
@georgehifi, Would that in turn mitigate the interconnect capacitance concerns associated with passive analog volume controls, allowing for greater choices and useable lengths for interconnects? Even if the analogue pot was on the output of the dac, if it were a 10kohm, which meets most needs, at the worst position it’s 2.7kohm output impedance. This into 1mt of good interconnect which is at worst 100pF per foot is 300pF for the mt, in conjunction with that 2.7kohm pot at output impedance give a HF roll off of -3db at 196khz which as you can see is no problem. Take it a step further, if the interconnect was 2mts long and poor quality at 200pF per ft then it’s still only -3db at 98khz!! still no problem at all. Cheers George |
@unsound .... I have four pairs. 80db at 4 ohms, 85 db at 8 ohms, 95db at 6 ohms, and 93db at 4 ohms. |
@flaxxer, are they spec’d at 1 Watts @ 1 meter or
2.83 Volts @ 1 meter?
Are those the nominal or minimum impedances?
BTW, the 4 Volt output on the DAC is via it's balanced XLR output, the passive Schitt and buffered First Watt B1 will only accept the 2 Volt RCA output from the DAC. |
There are Antelope Audio offers on Reverb.com for their Zodiac Platinum. At the price offered, I don’t think there is anything else out there that would compete aa a Dac/analogue preamp |
HI, got into this discussion late. I have a Topping D90 and it is a fine DAC. Many say the R2R sound better, but as a Delta Sigma DAC it is right up there. Very neutral sound and very dynamic. It puts out the 2V and 4V(bal). I didn't care for the volume control integrated into the DAC. This left me controlling the volume through my phone and the Bluesound app. I started a thread concerning this a few days ago so this is a very informative thread for me as well. I too have a limit on cost so I looked at the tubes4hifi preamps as well as others but they are above your price point. He makes a preamp that has gain on both channels($1190 on up). He sells lower cost Chinese units as well. So in closing, could buy a 500 preamp with remote. You could do several months same as cash if needed. The preamp tubes would not hurt a thing for your sound. You could go with a lower cost DAC that would still sound good. I know you already got the d90 but my 2Cents.
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@flaxxer Trying to find the perfectly unobtrusive high quality volume control/attenuator/etc solution that doesn’t lose resolution, etc can get expensive quickly. There’s a still a good chance that you may be happy with the Topping D90 on its own (it comes down to how unforgiving your ears are). Hence, you could start there. If you’re happy with it, you wouldn’t need anything else. Like I mentioned, the 750 dollar Topping D90 hit the peak of diminishing returns on DS dacs for my ears. However, there is another budget oriented option, the Topping E30 that sounds pretty good, while costing only a 150 bucks. My daughter who also happens to be a golden ear bat uses it on her desktop hifi setup and is quite happy with it. You can always return it if it didn't cut it for you. https://www.amazon.com/Topping-E30-Optical-Coaxial-Portable/dp/B0865Y9F6R/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=topping+e30&qid=1614442985&s=electronics&sr=1-3 I have some of NPass’s older gear and as you may know, most Class A gear made here can cost an arm and a leg. When a) the wallet is not happy and b) you’re not too picky on the country of origin w.r.t gear, the Chinese Dragon can often offer a rescue package for many golden ear bats out there. You could try to get your hands on a Jungson (Zhongshen) class A preamp on its own (600 to 700ish USD) at a later time. https://www.amazon.com/JUNGSON-Balanced-PREAMP-Standard-JungSon/dp/B086WVXC8T/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=jungson+ja1&qid=1614442572&s=electronics&sr=1-1There are ways to get stuff like this cheaper directly from China. But, amazon's protection could be worth it. One couldn’t even build/DIY gear of this caliber in the US at prices like these, let alone try to sell if for a profit. A couple of vulture pricing companies i know here contract these guys at Jungson to design/make their gear. Once it reaches our shores, it gets a different brand name and a 1500% markup. |
I have already purchased the D90. I guess I can send it back and by an R2R instead. Or I can buy a balanced headphone amplifier with remote control, if one can be had for 400. That would also be the same price. Just add that to my D90. |
I could always control the volume on my keyboard. BUT, when I was doing this about 10 years ago. Once every couple of weeks, I would get an immediate full volume blast of noise, until I could turn it down real fast. Now I'm using 1000 watts per speaker. This would destroy most drivers. THIS is the ONLY reason I am looking for different ways to control the volume. |
Only a few R2R's with the extra bits that Delta Sigma have towards volume attenuation. |
@unsound .... 1 watt one meter. Those are nominal impedance numbers. BUT, none of my speakers dip much lower than 3.7 ohms. I KNOW they can be driven by a single watt. THIS IS WHAT SOME ARE MISSING ... The lower powered boards cost $600+, and were back ordered.... The 1000 watt boards are ON SALE for only $500 per pair, instead of the normal $770 per pair, and in stock. THIS is why I own these very powerful amplifiers. NO other reason.
Headroom is a good thing on digital amps. Huge headroom on Class AB amps can create noise issues (see Pro amps). But digital has a black background. SO I just need a way to control the volume, without degrading the sound quality, to prevent accidentally getting full volume, if my cat crosses my keyboard!
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I’m fairly confident that you won’t have issues with the two lower sensitivity speakers, the higher ones might (?) be a bit more challenging. Still, with a 32 bit DAC you’ll have at least (!) 8 bits to spend without worry of bit stripping and each bit is worth about 12 dB of attenuation; that’s 96 dB worth of attenuation before bit stripping occurs. You might not get silence before bit stripping occurs, but the lowest levels will probably be well below critical listening levels. I say give it a try. The speakers will only draw the power it needs to handle the signal. While balanced certainly has it’s advantages, singled ended will be worth trying. |
That would be awesome if this were so. I'll give it a try and we'll see what happens! Thank you very much |
@flaxxer,
pls don’t go there. You definitely want analogue domain attenuation. |
@antigrunge2 .... really? You can't just say that without leaving your top recommendation for what you're telling me is the best solution. |
I'm looking at the topping pre90 preamp. It has a 40K output impedance. Is this going to be an issue with my 8K impedance amplifiers? If so, what output impedance am I trying to find with a preamp? Thank you |
You mean 40 ohm, not 40k ohm! Generally, you want a the input impedance to be at least 10x higher than the output. So, you should be fine with 40 ohm output impedance into an amp with an 8k input impedance. |
I’m going to sell my Focal Flax speakers I haven’t used in years, and buy something I’ll use now. I think I’ll get the Pre90, and justify it with the knowledge some of it was paid with the sale. What makes this funny is, I just found them in the box yesterday. I spent time wondering what I was going to do with them, now that I can no longer drive a stick, lol. Perfect solution! |
What is really neat about this solution, is that it is the exact same size and look as the topping D90 I just received in the mail yesterday. They even make a two shelf rack that would fit these perfectly. |
Just wanted to thank all the people who have helped so much. I just purchased a topping pre90. We'll see how it works out. |
@flaxxer,
see above: Antelope Zodiac Platinum on Reverb.com |
I suggest trying the DAC direct, you might find the pre superfluous, perhaps even less satisfying than going direct. You might want to confirm return policies and restocking fees for the pre and extra cabling before committing. |
In a recent past post I suggested that one could expect 12 dB attenuation per bit. I posted that in in reference to a recently read report by ESS regarding their “hyper threading” Saber 32 bit DAC. I can’t seem to find that report to offer a hyper-link, This might or might not be specific to that brand’s internal chip algorithm. It might be misleading to suggest this is to be commonly expected. The standard rule of thumb for 16 bit attenuation is 6 dB per bit. Still even with 6 dB of attenuation per bit, with a 32 bit DAC, there will probably be plenty of bits to spare before bit stripping occurs at critical listening levels with standard output and input voltages.
I offer my apologies if any one was previously misled. |
@unsound ... I made my decision to buy a separate preamp, based solely on user reviews which concurred the D90 sounds better when used as a DAC only, bypassing the volume controls. |
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Yes, it sounds better DAC mode. And it sounds better after several hours of use.
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