Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure

Agree, I think the Allnics could be a good match. If/when ready we have both the 10 inch and 8 inch Nenuphar’s you can try at home. Let me know.

Thanks @toetapaudio and thanks for your previous comments and input, maybe after the lockdown ends.

@david_ten and @charles1dad

Thanks for your replies, very much appreciated.

@david_ten - Not decided yet, still trying to make my mind up and and save up some money OR more accurately have the confidence to spend the money in these uncertain times.

And also the confidence to spend a large amount of money on a speaker I haven’t actually heard/demo.

Agree, I think the Allnics could be a good match. If/when ready we have both the 10 inch and 8 inch Nenuphar’s you can try at home. Let me know.

Based on the provided specifications (Modest level of NFB =6 and relatively low damping factor=10 and probably less into the 6 ohm Nenuphar) suggest a favorable match with the Nenuphars. 
Charles 

@yorkshireman Based on gut feel, I believe it will be a great pairing.

You will have to compare with another amp to determine how the negative feedback of -6dB and the -80dB S/N ratio play out for you.

Have you made a choice between the Nenuphar and Nenuphar Mini?

Coincidently, I recently considered a permalloy ’based’ amp. : )

Would the Allnic T1500 integrated 300b SET Amp work well?

Key Features:

• 10 watts per channel of pure class A high power output. The T-1500 MK2 is a single ended, stereo integrated amplifier. Almost all other 300B amplifiers are under, and distortion, driven. This is a result of the use of conventional “Resister-Capacitor” circuits, which give only up to around a 70V swing voltage, with high distortion. This means that an already distorted signal of a lower than optimum swing voltage is directed to the deep biased 300B grid. Allnic’s powerful “Inductor Drive” circuit gives up to a 150V swing voltage, with very low distortion (about 0.3%). It is this drive delivered to the T-1500 MK2 that allows for a higher output (10w) with much less distortion than can be expected from standard 300B circuits.

• Real power drive. The drive tube, 6SN7 is a moderate-mu (about 20) twin triode. We use this to drive the 300B’s via a choke plate inductor. Our choke inductor (100% nickel permalloy PC core) has very low power loss and infinitely high load impedance. This configuration is an ideal drive stage for 300B SET. And as the first tube, a twin triode 6SL7, has a very high-mu (about 70), the T-1500 MK2 has a total gain of +35dB.

• Nickel alloy output transformer. Allnic uses sophisticated ratio mixed nickel permalloy PB cored output transformers. Because of their extremely high initial permeability, it is possible to use fewer turns on the primary winding while retaining very high ‘open circuit inductance”. That means a resulting very wide frequency range and low distortion bass response. This is another reason why the T-1500 MK2 excels over other 300B integrated amplifiers. Allnic also uses a very big nickel core, so as not to be magnetically saturated at a high current level of 100mA.

• Long life and trouble-free operation. Allnic employs a “soft start circuit” to protect the tubes and other parts. It applies the high B+ voltage only after tubes are fully warmed-up.

• Self-bias control grid.

• Analog Power Tube Current Monitors. Allnic uses analog current meters to display the condition of each channel’s power tube. The meters make it exceptionally easy to see the status of each tube at any time and offer a simple, unambiguous indication of each tube’s status compared to conventional LED bias monitors.

• Natural negative feedback. The T-1500 MK2 applies about -6dB of negative feedback. This is a very complimentary amount of negative feedback that differentiates the Allnic 300B single ended amplifier from the standard, which has a very coloured and weak speaker driving force. With this natural feedback, the T-1500 MK2 has a relatively high “damping factor’, very low distortion, and a higher S/N ratio, without losing the signature single ended natural sound quality.

• We use a NEW remote controlled high quality 41 step silver contact attenuator Ver.2 (all resistors non-inductive) instead of a carbon filmed slide potentiometer.

• Beautiful 20KHz square wave response.

Technical Specifications:

• Output Power: 10w + 10w (4, 8 or 16Ω load, at 1KHz)
• Distortion: 0.3% at 1KHz, 2.83V
• Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20KHz Flat
• S/N Ratio: -80dB (CCIR, 1KHz)
• Damping Factor: 10 at 8Ω load at 1KHz
• Voltage gain: +35dB
• Input Impedance: 10KΩ (single-ended, unbalanced)
• Input Sensitivity: 230mV for rated power
• Tubes: 300B X 2 (power triode), 6SL7(6N9P) x 1 (First tube), 6SN7 x 1 (Second tube)
• Fuses:   AC Mains – 3A / 250V (110W) (two supplied – one is a spare). Tubes -0.5A, 250V, 20mm glass type
• Dimensions: (W x D x H) 430mm x 380mm x 240mm (17 x 15 x 9.5 in)
• Weight: 22kg net. 26kg shipping weight.

 https://www.hammertoneaudio.com/product/t-1500-mk2http://

Came across this video explaining damping factor while researching amplifiers. Coincidence(?) or is Google / YouTube keeping track... : )

A primer on damping factor from Hans Beekhuyzen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idxT7VVYyxo

[Note: if someone previously posted this, my apologies. Let me know?] 

I believe in quality parts, monoblocks, and overbuilt power supplies, but also simple, well-known circuits without negative feedback that can be implemented cheaply. Most of those set circuits were fully detailed/explored decades ago and modern flagships are just very careful/thoughtful instantiations. All that's to say that you may find your little tekton hanging right along with much more expensive offerings.

Yes, it is low enough. Quite good, actually.

Is there a number I should be considering as the max for damping? I don't really understand the damping rating in amps so if I had a threshold that you recommend I do not cross that would help.

I'm definitely going to start with the little EL-84 Tektron. It's around 10-15 watts and I'm using it right now with some 99db efficient speakers and it has no problem with output. I'm going to test it with some 85db standmounts that I have just to see how it handles them. Keep in mind I paid $1400 for this amp so I'm curious to see how it scales up with more expensive speakers. But it hits a lot of spots I like.... uses tubes, handmade, good quality parts, quiet (no hum or buzz), small footprint, good imaging and spacious sound, good dynamics and detail, smooth even sound (nothing sounds out of proportion), looks good (happy wife) in an artisan/eclectic kind of way. I plan on using this initially while I search for more a flagship amp and then putting this in my office. I'm curious to try a 300b amp, either SET or PP. But I'm pretty open as long as it has the tube magic I love, looks good, and fits in my space.

The damping factor is rated at 10. Is that low enough for the Nenuphars?

Yes, it is low enough. Quite good, actually.

Thanks for the info, I'm open to all suggestions. In terms of damping factor, I've been reading that I should look for an amp with little to no damping and 0 negative feedback. One amp I am considering is the Canary Audio M-90. It's a push/pull 300b, 24 wpc (which seems like plenty), but the damping factor is rated at 10. Is that low enough for the Nenuphars? I'm definitely not set on this amp, or any, just trying to refine a list of options so trying to determine if this amp should go on the list. Thanks.

I’m looking for something that’s going to maximize the qualities of the speakers

@abd1 I’d start by learning how your system sounds with the Tektron EL-84s driving your Nenuphars. That may (will) help inform next steps...

If you have regrets letting your LTA amp go, I suggest bringing in a new unit to test with the Nenuphars, after the Nenuphars have 200+ hours on them. I’m not encouraging you to do so, but LTA has a generous return policy should you need to use it.

Don Sachs’ preamps are very well regarded, therefore going amplifier only (versus an integrated) is certainly an option. An integrated option is totally fine as well.

The Ayon Audio Crossfire PA Stereo amplifier is one of my own top choices to tease out how a higher power output design (30 watts) compares to my 2A3 amps (3.5 watts).

Member @mikeg used the Ayon Odin III amp in his review and is familiar with the Ayon line. I suggest reaching out to him for insight and advice, if Ayon is an option.

I concur with the entirety of Charles’ preceding post. To reinforce one point, lower output amps do not generate much heat. My solid state class A amps have been the worst offenders, when it comes to heat generation.

Final point: consider your system as a whole (panel box forward through to your room)... not just the amplifier - speaker pairing... to inform and guide your choices.

Based on reading through your posts, it’s clear you know what you are doing. Trust yourself.

Hi abd1,
One thing to keep in mind is you don’t require a lot of power to very effectively drive your Nenuphars. The Line Magnetic 508ia is definitely going to generate heat. The 805 is a high power DHT output tube that demands a very high voltage (1000V) power supply. 48 watts pure class A circuit is by necessity going to create some heat, that’s unavoidable.

Your current el 84 push pull amplifier should be a very good match. If interested in a SET I’d look for a really good quality 2A3, PX 25 or 3000b. The Nenuphar doesn’t require an amplifier with negative feedback (NFB) due to the very damped driver.

Compared to your current amplifier a good SET may likely provide more of the tone and texture you desire. It can possibly be more holographic and tactile in presentation as well.

These lower power DHT SETs don’t generate much heat output either. If ever there’s a good time to explore a SET amplifier you have an excellent opportunity via your Nenuphars. They are designed specifically for these SET amplifiers even though they work well with other amplifier types for certain.  
Charles

@david_ten I guess I'm looking for something that's going to maximize the qualities of the speakers. Sounds like SET amps with zero feedback and great matches with these speakers. I've had Primaluna and Line Magentic tube amps in the past. I liked both. The LM was the LM-508 and it was the best sounding amp I've had. 48wpc Class A SET. However, it was a beast (hot and huge), had a bit of hum that never went away. The Primaluna was the older Dialogue One and it also sounded great, was really silent and was a bargain. I currently have a Tektron EL-84 that I could use. It's a push pull at about 10wpc and sounds really good. I know Tektron shows with Cube often. I also had an LTA Ultralinear and wish I hadn't sold it. It wasn't a good match with my speakers at the time but I wasn't planning on changing speakers so I sold it. Had I known I was going to be able to get these speakers I would've kept it. However, I would still like to try their REF40 amp. I guess I'm looking for anything that has that tube magic (texture, tone, imaging, dynamics), but also good control. Since these speakers are fairly efficient I'm open to whatever is going to deliver. I've also thought about looking for an Ayon Spitfire or Crossfire. I do have a Sachs tube preamp so I could just go with an amp, but if it's an integrated that could be ok too. A couple caveats... it has to look good as it's going in my living room and my wife needs to be happy too, and it can't be a huge monster that's nuclear hot (I have limited space). Some heat is to be expected but I want to be able to use it in the summer too. Anyway, any directions to point me in would be great. Thanks!

@charles1dad Thanks! I like the contrast as well. Regarding the red Solistino, when I first saw it, my reaction was, one must be pretty brave to buy a color like this. But then, looking at it a couple of times by the dealer my mind changed completely. It looks so nice when the light in the room is low or off, and the light from the tubes hits the red color.

@abd1 Thanks! You summarized very well my thoughts. Sorry, but I do have no recommendations regarding other amps. But I have seen, every now and then, a view used Vivas in that price range out there.

@abd1 Can you share more about your needs and goals?

I learned there are far more options than I expected, due to the Nenuphars being easy speakers to drive. I was skeptical that my 2A3 amp would be sufficient, yet it was and is. I would even go so far as to recommend a 45 based SET, though with some caveats. The sweet spot from a power perspective, in my opinion, are the 300B amps.

Since you are looking at tube amps, consider those with zero negative feedback (or those that use low levels of NF).

I recommend reaching out to @charles1dad who is very knowledgeable in this area.

Wow, the grey looks great. Probably doesn't show fingerprints or dust as much as the black and not quite as flashy as the white, but still very sharp and modern looking.

Thanks everyone on the feedback earlier. I'm really excited about getting these speakers. Maybe I'll start another thread but I'm wondering what tube amp you'd recommend up to $5k with these speakers (used options totally ok).

Hi greenhorn20, 
Nice choice of speaker color and it makes an attractive contrast to the color of the driver cone. BTW I really like the rich elegant color of the Viva Solistino. A nice room overall. Absolutes no doubt that your system sounds marvelous.
Charles 

@david_ten :-))...I hear you...sorry to disappoint you, but wasn’t all that brave.

@jayctoy  they certainly are...it’s so much fun!

Greenhorn20 Viva amps are very musical, I have the 300B.

@greenhorn20  What!...you didn't go with Rosso Corsa with the Prancing Horse emblem to enhance the performance synergy with your Solistino? : )

Thanks for sharing the photos of the Nenuphars in the BMW Silver Grey Metallic. They look very sharp as does your room. 

Until we hopefully to get to see the walnut version I can share another custom color. It’s a silver grey metallic. The dealer said it is a BMW color.

https://lichtblicke.smugmug.com/Other/Forum/n-7qvMV/i-vzsmh2q/A

https://lichtblicke.smugmug.com/Other/Forum/n-7qvMV/i-2Gh2BJd/A

https://lichtblicke.smugmug.com/Other/Forum/n-7qvMV/i-hQ8JXCR/A

https://lichtblicke.smugmug.com/Other/Forum/n-7qvMV/i-dBrJVH8/A

The rack and the structure to hold the diffuser is of course only a temporary solution. This year was crazy expensive for my standards. Have to save up a few more bugs. Until then this must be fine. ;-)

Thanks for the warm welcome! @david_ten 

True, it would be very interesting to compare those amps within the own living room. But I was already lucky enough to listen in his room’s to various systems exceeding the price of my setup many times. The only amp I had to compare in my living room against the Solistino was the Jadis DA88S. To my ears and taste I preferred the Solistino. The Solistino had a lot more meat on the bones. The upper bass and the mids where more present. The Solistino had a certain magic which the DA88S couldn’t keep up with. But this is just my personal finding and taste and doesn’t mean anything.

@fjn04 You have to go to the driver pages for cube audio to see the full specs. Here they are for the 10" neo used in the Nens:

Thiele / Small parameters
Fs = 30 Hz
Re = 5.5 ohms
Le = 0.006 m
HQt = 0.43
Qes = 0.44
Qms = 17.8
Cms = 0.76 mm/N
Vas = 127 liters
Sd= 346 cm^2
Bl = 9.7 Tm
Xmax = +- 3 mm*
Xdamage = +- 6 mm
Sensitivity = 92 dB
Impedance = 6 Ohms
* Voice coil remains in 100% of magnetic field.

Hi @abd1 I’m sure you will like vocals on Nenuphar Mini’s, keep us posted.

Just saw the A/V forum video review from Peter B. on this speaker. Looks promising. I confess not having read through this thread, but the Impedance spec is no where to be found on their website. 

Hi Charles,

- Melody I2A3 (Push-Pull 18 watts) integrated amplifier

 and the

- Ayon Spirit II (KT-88 Push-Pull 40/60 watts Triode/Pentode) integrated amplifier

I have fond memories of the Vaughn anchored system. 

Hi David,
At one time I gave serious consideration to Vaughn speakers (RAAL ribbon/Fostex 8" wide range driver) and the Tonian Lab Classic 12.1 (Which utilized the legendary French 12" PHY wide range driver) to pair with my 300b mono blocks. I didn’t know you had a direct listening experience with the Vaughn. Very interesting. David what amplifier were you using with them ?

In my opinion it is very high praise indeed to say you prefer the Nenuphar to the Vaughn with RAAL ribbon tweeter for human voice reproduction. Midrange and vocals were said to be a strength of the Classic 12.1. as well.
Charles

@abd1 I cannot think of a single post from a Nenuphar owner that voices concern over voice! : )

Mike Girardi’s Stereo Times review discusses the performance of Herbie Hancock’s ’Gershwin’s World’ in depth and makes a particular point with Joni Mitchell’s vocals on the recording.

This statement from Mike should allay any concerns you have:

Once you listen to vocals on the Cubes, it’s "Game over" for most multidriver loudspeakers.

My Jim Jordan’s Vaughn Loudspeakers utilized a RAAL ribbon to extend his widebander’s performance. I totally get what you are saying about how RAAL implementations sound. Based on my memory of my own RAAL based speakers (as well as others I have heard), I don’t believe you have anything to be concerned about. BTW, I had the same concern... prior to purchasing the Nenuphars.

My only concern with the Cube’s is how they handle voices. One of my favorite speakers uses a RAAL ribbon tweeter and I love the extension and air without harshness. I know the Nenuphar’s won’t get that extension, but I’m hoping the texture, tone, detail, imaging, dynamics, etc. all make up for it. Has anyone here compared the Nenuphar to a ribbon or berylium tweeter?

@abd1 I agree with your assessment of Peter Brueninger’s reviews. You are spot on.

They are mostly very positive. Which, as with so many reviewers, requires the reader to be familiar with a reviewer’s review history and patterns AND to carefully "read between [and past] the lines." In his reviews of the Nenuphar and the Mini Nenuphar, he was clearly in a very different and very special place. Srajan Ebaen was as well. Add Mike Girardi to that list.

Congratulations on your purchase of the Walnut Nenuphar Minis. Can you share photographs of them? I’d love to see how they look in that particular finish. Thanks.

@greenhorn20  Welcome to the Nenuphar thread, to Audiogon and to the hobby. Thanks for sharing your journey and your system. 

Congratulations on your recent successful audition and acquisition of the Nenuphars. I've been curious about driving my Nenuphars with 845 Output tubes for some time now, and Viva is a top option.

As Charles pointed out in his post, I also expect the Solistino - Nenuphar pairing to be terrific. 

Perhaps your dealer can loan you the appropriate Aries Cerat and Jadis amps, for comparison purposes?

As for getting "carried away," isn't that what this hobby is all about? I hope you continue to be "transported" to happy places with your system! 

I've also read through this thread and watched Youtube reviews and videos about the Nenuphar Mini's. What really got me interested is Peter Breuninger's reviews. Peter sometimes gushes on and on, but I know Peter has listened to almost everything and when he is as enthusiastic about something to the degree he has been about these it says something to me, and his enthusiasm did not seem like typical hyperbole. Not to mention all the glowing reviews from the comments here. I have been extremely fortunate this year, which is odd during such difficult times, but I decided to get a pair of Nenuphar Mini's because life is short and if I'm going to spend more time inside I better make the most of it. I had been wanting a pair of Spatial X5's, but I think they're too big for my space so I decided to get a pair of Nenuphar Mini's. Currently a pair finished in walnut are headed over and I'm putting a deposit on them. I can't wait to get them. I recently picked up a small Tektron EL-84 push pull integrated to start with the Cube's. I've been using it in my office this week and its a sweet little integrated. I plan on playing around with different tube amps and possible some First Watt models over the next couple years.

My only concern with the Cube's is how they handle voices. One of my favorite speakers uses a RAAL ribbon tweeter and I love the extension and air without harshness. I know the Nenuphar's won't get that extension, but I'm hoping the texture, tone, detail, imaging, dynamics, etc. all make up for it. Has anyone here compared the Nenuphar to a ribbon or berylium tweeter? Thank you all for your insights.

Thanks to you both! @charles1dad  @toetapaudio

Thanks @greenhorn for posting your thoughts, sounds like a nice setup.

Hi greenhorn20, 
Congratulations on acquiring the Nenuphars and thanks for sharing your very happy outcome with us here. I have no doubt at all that the Viva Solistino and Nenuphars sound positively Devine. Your have made some excellent purchasing decisions. I can certainly imagine the emotionally engaging music listening experience is fantastic. 
Charles 

Hi to all from Germany!

Just finished the compete Thread. Wow, what a read! Thanks to all for the shared experiences, information's and for the very friendly and respectful conversation.

I'am very new to the hobby, two years, but badly infected with the hifi bug.

I made quite a journey in that short period of time. I'll never thought this would be possible when I started.

My first setup was a new Vincent SV237 MKII paired with a demo Q Acoustics Concept 500. Just used the internal DAC and a Tidal subscription, nothing more. 

I found then a local dealer, since I had tones of fun and I was getting more and more involved and interested. He has brands like Aries Cerat, Jadis, Grandinote, Cube Audio, Viva Audio and so on. I was visiting a couple of  listening events and was instantly hooked.

Today my setup is a Viva Audio Solistino, SOTM Switch with it's power supply, 432evo aeon, Audio Analogue AADAC, the Q Acoustics along with Audioplan Finefilter, PowerStar, 2 PowerPlants and two PSI Audio AVAA's

As a loaner from the mentioned dealer I have since 5 days the Nenuphar in use. I always have been amazed by it at the listening events. I was really happy to find out that they sound equally well in my living room, which has received, right from the beginning, constantly room treatment. 

The lift in emotions, feelings and engagement that the Nenuphar delivers is truly special. The hole week I was happy to come home from work, just to spend the night in front of my stereo. 

Needles to say that I am happily keeping them.

Sorry for all the writing, just got carried away. ;-)

Cheers!
 

 

Charles,
Thanks for chipping in. I’ll look elsewhere for speaker heaven.
In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy my Ohm 5000s.
- Al

Agree with David. It will definitely "work" with the Nenuphar. There’s certainly the possibility that it may do more than merely work and sound good as a pairing. The point is the Coda Technologies # 8 is designed as a high current capable amplifier that doubles its wattage when speaker impedance in halved from  8 to 4 ohms. These kinds of amplifiers usually are low output impedance designs with generous levels of NFB.

It uses 20 transistors per channel to accomplish this. The Nenuphar was designed for a very different type of amplifier topology and circuits. You just never know how these pairings may actually sound. So the obvious key is listening to this match and make a determination.
Best of luck coot,
Charles

Thanks guys. I guess my real question is, Why the max of 40? Does too much power damage the speakers? Tektons are quite sensitive as well, but I know people who are using high-power ss on them without damage. Anyway, thanks.

hard to say without trying and comparing with a known reference that works with the Cubes.

+1

@coot  I believe the damping factor is 200. I could not find anything in a quick search regarding negative feedback. Even though the No. 8 has 18 watts of Class A before going A/B, it's 200+ watts into 6 Ohms far exceeds Cube's recommended max of 40 watts.

Will it work, YES. Is it the best match/pairing???

Yes. Davis Ten. Clement needs to up his editing game. : )

David, very nice review in Stereo Times. Are you the 'Davis' mentioned in the article?

- RWP

@coot, hard to say without trying and comparing with a known reference that works with the Cubes. Perhaps approach the US distributor and see if he can help you out? What are you using at the moment?

Would the Nenuphars work satisfactorily on my Coda #8 amp?

Nenuphar journey, part 5

The next amp to be paired with my Mini Monitors was to be the SIT-3, which needs no introduction here. I had heard the combo at AXPONA, so that when I unexpectedly acquired a SIT-2 from a fellow in Hawaii the new boy jumped to the front of the line.

The SIT-2 made for an overall more refined sound than the previous amps. It was mid-centric which accounts for the 'tube-like' descriptions found in some reviews. There was a large soundstage and the presentation was more forward -- Sinatra had moved to the front of the stage. Lots of bass and no problems listening to beat-heavy music. Beck had swirling swashes of sound, sufficiently psychedelic. Who knew 10 (or 12) watts could make this much music?

It made one wonder what a pair of SIT-1s would sound like (the SIT2 is basically the stereo version of the 1s).

To be continued....

@mac48025  Tom, welcome back!!!  @redwoodaudio had asked, on Page 10 of the thread, for comparisons with his Omegas. I know you haven't heard the Nenuphars but have been thoroughly researching them. Perhaps he and you can connect, since both of you have Omegas?

@yorkshireman  Welcome! Did @toetapaudio 's response answer your question? Can we help with anything else?

@rwpollock  Thanks for your ongoing updates. They are fascinating and informative!  Neat storylines as well!