Jyprez, you exaggerate the issue, don't scare the man off. Just let him figure it out. |
02-07-11: Jyprez
...Second, vinyl is for those who want to collect records from the golden era of vinyl. If you are only going to buy post digital era reissues, then stick with that as they will give you the same sound without the inconvenience. Not in my experience. Yes, my first preference is vinyl with an all-analog chain, but I still like 24/88.2, 24/96, and 24/192 digital recordings made into LPs much better than CDs dithered down to 16/44.1. With the LP of a digital recording, you get an analog conversion at the resolution of the original recording (e.g., 24/96), run through a very expensive pro-quality (think $20K+ or so) DAC to cut the lacquer master. With CD, it's converted to 16/44.1 and you play this lower-resolution approximation through a consumer-grade DAC. Not even close. Also, I have probably 1500 LPs, most of which I collected within a year or two, mostly from dollar bins and thrift shops. I haven't needed an expensive record cleaner (though I admit it would be convenient). I use record cleaning fluid concocted at a local used record store and use those microfiber terry towels with 90,000 fibers per square inch to do the scrubbing and drying. If I need deeper cleaning I use a $25 handheld high pressure steamer. |
For the sake of all those who responded to this post, and for those who find themselves in my position down the road, I figured I would write a followup.
Suffice it to say, my original budget of $1,500 was doubled and then doubled again before I was done, but the end result is astounding! I ended up going with the VPI Classic turntable (new) which came with the JMW 10.5i tonearm. I also purchased the HRX Center weight and the periphery ring clamp. I opted to go with the Dynavector 20x2-H cartridge (to mate with my MM phono input on the KW500).
Then to top it off, I got the dustcover, carbon fiber brush, VPI 16.5 record cleaner, solution, stylus brush and isolpads. I spent about $1,200 on LPs to get the collection jump-started.
NOTE: Due to a mis-communication with my VPI dealer, I did have the 20x2-L mounted for a few days and it sounded a little better, but due to the gain mismatch, I had to crank the amp WAY up to the point where there was too much noise so it was swapped for the HO version)
So, in the end, I have a sound that I never imagined possible without major component upgrades in my digital front-end or speakers (and by major, I mean at least 3-4x what I spent on the analog front-end) . Soundstage is wider and deeper, tonal accuracy is dead-on and imaging is extremely precise. Vocals sing like nothing I've EVER heard in digital before....and all of this is with a moderate Analog setup...not a $25k high-end rig!
Now, I suppose it would be easy to say that my digital front end was inferior, but the Modwright Transporter is considered a pretty decent digital front-end by most standards and this rig flat-out smokes it. I mean, to the point where I'm thinking about going exclusive analog in my main rig and leaving digital for the "convenience" listening elsewhere. The modwright is definitely going up for sale...jury is still out on whether I keep the stock transporter or not...
The record cleaning is a bit time consuming, but I've gotten the hang of it and once I get in the groove, it won't be a big deal at all.
As for background noise, it's a non-issue. For the new LPs I've bought that have been immediately vacuum cleaned on the 16.5 and then brushed before/after every play, they are virtually silent, even between tracks. For the used LPs I've bought, they are a bit noisy between tracks but once cleaned and brushed, the surface noise is virtually inaudible during playback.
Thanks again to EVERYONE who helped me get through this (special thanks to Raquel for the added offline help). I can honestly say to anyone from my generation (I was born in '79) who more-or-less grew up on cassettes and CDs, there is nothing quite like vinyl if you've got the funding and the system to back it up. If you love music and you love good sound, it's not a matter of "if" but rather "when" and "how".
-gh0st |
.
Congrats on your analog acquisitions.
Now that you've taken the analog plunge......let me tell you about reel to reel......
Beware, it never ends.
. |
Congrats. You jumped in waaaay deep first time in. But if you like it that much, you've got something going. Warning - as Mitch4t suggests it is a sickness of sorts. I'd hold off on getting rid of the digital. You have a lot invested in the music and buying it again on vinyl would seem a waste of resources. There is no reason why you cannot enjoy your digital as much as you did a month ago. |
02-20-11: T_bone
Congrats. You jumped in waaaay deep first time in. But if you like it that much, you've got something going. Warning - as Mitch4t suggests it is a sickness of sorts. I'd hold off on getting rid of the digital. You have a lot invested in the music and buying it again on vinyl would seem a waste of resources. There is no reason why you cannot enjoy your digital as much as you did a month ago.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm coming up on my 4th anniversary of getting a turntable after 2 decades of digital only. After I got my turntable I didn't listen to *any* digitally sourced music for 8 months. Four years later the only digital music I listen to is on my iPod Classic at work to drown out office noise. My iPod is filled with Apple Lossless rips of my CD collection, so yeah, I'm glad I didn't get rid of it. But with all my records now, I take little to no pleasure in listening to music from CDs unless my primary attention is focused somewhere else. I'm not saying this is what it'll do to everybody; it just did it to me. |
Fatgh0st,
Congratulations and thanks for the follow up. Yours is a great story. This has been an interesting thread considering the range of early responses. Others are correct when they tell you that it's easy to get hooked and lost in the expense of it all. It sounds like you have a very good analog front end that will give you much listening pleasure. Now, just invite your young friends over for a listen/conversion because this industry needs some young enthusiasts to carry it along.
I say keep the digital for background and don't give up your collection. I play CDs about 5% of the time when I have a party and want background music. You can also demo the system to your friends using their own familiar CDs and then blow them away with the vinyl. Well done. |
. Maineiac, you were dead-on with your prediction: 01-25-11: Maineiac
Anybody want to do a side bet on the total money he has into vinyl playback (not software) in 18 months? I say the over/under is $5K and I would take the over.
The OP is in for $6k to start, after hoping to get in for $1000 - $1500. Now, let's see how long he can stand pat with his initial vinyl rig before an upgrade. . |
Mitch4t: LOL! I had forgotten about the prediction. Maineiac definitely knows the culture I suppose :-)
I've already identified my upgrade, just going to wait a while to do it. The next step will be to upgrade to a mid-grade LOMC cart and a dedicated phono input stage (something considerably better than my KW. I'm expecting I'll need a $4-5k budget for these items. Does that sound about right?
This will likely be a 2012 project, but for now I'm just loving listening to all my new LPs in all their sonic and musical splendor!
I do agree with those who said that new vinyl is definitely hit or miss. What's the general policy on returning new vinyl if it's noisy/defective? For example, I purchased 'The Verve - Urban Hymns' new from Amazon and for the first 15 seconds of 'The Drugs Don't Work' (which happens to be one of my favorite tracks) there is an incredibly loud popping sound at every rotation. It goes for about 10 pops or so and then stops. Not just like a dust particle pop, but one that is substantially louder than the music itself, to the point where it sounds like something is wrong with the system. I don't see any scratches or anything at that position on the record, but I've cleaned it a few times to no avail.
Will most places return/exchange in a situation like this?
-gh0st |
.
'Gh0st......Don't worry about the bread you're spending on equipment. Pretty much all of it is recoverable and you will enjoy the ride along the way. Most of us have taken a similar plunge such as yours. Don't get too hung up on the equipment and upgrades and forget to enjoy the music. Don't over-analyze while listening...just go with it. If you start to over-analyze, you'll wake up $10k-$20k later wondering how you got there. This whole thing is a journey that will never end, if you know that going in, you'll have a blast along the way.
As for your quest for a dedicated phono preamp. Just keep your eye on this forum and continue to post your questions and ideas. You'll continue to get lots of responses that you can sort through that will help you make an informed decision in the direction that you want to take.
$4-5k will get you an outstanding phono preamp, but I believe you can get an excellent phono preamp for half that amount. Buy used if you can, you will be able to try out several units that you can immediately re-sell with little or no loss if you don't like it or if you simply want to try another flavor.
Now start to figure out how to explain to friends how you dropped $6k on a record player. I'm laughing already at their faces of disbelief.
. |
Haha...yea, most of my friends think I'm nuts. Omiting the price, I've mentioned it to a few people who either thought I was loopy or was like "oh, my dad just got a USB turntable that can convert it to DVD!", but said in a way that they're trying to one-up my recent record player since digital is clearly superior to vinyl :-)
I think for a second about explaining how it really is, but then I just feel sorry for them and let it be :-). They are happy in their thoughts and any attempt at explaining the truth is wasted breath.
I have a few others who are eager to come over and hear what a real TT setup actually sounds like, so that should be intersting. Maybe convert a few skeptics???
And then there's one of my co-workers who mutters "snap, crackle, pop" every time I walk past his office. I should also mention that he owns Bose equipment which basically discredits any opinion he has anyway :-) |
Most places will take back new vinyl that has problems, yes, but always pay with a card so you can do a chargeback if your seller tries to make you pay for defective merchandise (the law is on your side in most states, but practically speaking, you're not going enforce rights over a transaction of such small value).
Yeah, you can get a superb phono stage and cartridge for a combined $5k!
Colleagues snickering about the analog rig - take pity on the great unwashed and try to educate. |
Congrats on a fantastic cliff dive into vinyl. My prediction was for 18 months in so, although we already hit the over, it would be fun to know where things will stand come the fall of 2012. As for phono stages, check out the K&K threads. |
Given the current trajectory and level of enthusiasm, no way Fatgh0st makes it to 2012 without upgrading.
The process of "identifying" upgrades is tantamount to deliberating about whether to acquire them. |
02-22-11: Maineiac
"As for phono stages, check out the K&K threads"
AMEN you said a mouthful....
I LOVE happy endings. Fatgh0st
you've just got a VERY GOOD education,....not to discount anything anyone has said...If you take nothing else from this thread Maineiac just gave you and admission to Grad school.
enjoy this part of the hobby it is truly gratifying
-b |
Fatgh0st,
Congrats. Good thing you didn't listen to the digital naysayers. I myself took the vinyl plunge 2 weeks ago. Clearaudio: Performance SE, Satisfy Carbon arm, Talismann V2 MC cart and the Balance Plus Phono Pre. My digital system is top of the line 24 bit playback capacity. I will give digital one advantage over analog...if 24 bit, then the vise like grip on the lowest octaves is tighter in digital. Where digital blows it is in the actual texture of the musical notes whether it be voice, percussion, instrumental. This tangible feel of the music is completely lost in the A/D conversion. I also feel sound stage is much deeper and wider in analog playback.
Vinyl certainly has it's drawbacks in terms of cleanliness, surface noise pops, clicks and crackels but in the end, it doesn't matter. Nothing beats vinyl sound quality save for the studio analog master tapes. I am stilled stunned by the analog experience.
All the best and welcome to the sickness. I'm already looking at future turntable/tonearm/cart upgrades...disturbing as that is... |
02-23-11: Rockitman
... My digital system is top of the line 24 bit playback capacity. I will give digital one advantage over analog...if 24 bit, then the vise like grip on the lowest octaves is tighter in digital. Where digital blows it is in the actual texture of the musical notes whether it be voice, percussion, instrumental. This tangible feel of the music is completely lost in the A/D conversion. I also feel sound stage is much deeper and wider in analog playback. Yes-yes-yes! I've heard high end 24/96 playback at some high end audio store open houses, where 1st generation 24/96 masters are played back through insanely expensive D/A converters, line stages, amps, and speakers. I just heard such playback through a complete chain of ARC Anniversary/Signature components 2 wks ago. I can relax and enjoy 24-bit music in a way that I can't with 16/44.1, but it still only gets me 80% of the way there compared to vinyl, and in the ways you describe--texture, timbre, tangible feel, continuity and smoothness, and soundstage. Basically it comes down to how low level detail is handled, such as room ambience and the ways that sounds coming from instruments and voices start, bloom, fade, and the last room ambience decays. These are the cues that make music musical, lush, rich, and enveloping. |
Rockitman - I couldn't agree with you more. It's the naturalness in the sound that's got me hooked like a drug. Instruments sound like real instruments, not recorded instruments and voices sound like the singer is in the room. Digital could come close on some 24/96 material I have but at the end of the day, there isn't much 24/96 material out there that peaks my interest. On the other hand, just about every album I ever wanted is available in Vinyl and sounds as good or better than a 24/96 digital.
Analog playback = musical nirvana?
-gh0st |
02-23-11: Fatgh0st
Rockitman - I couldn't agree with you more. It's the naturalness in the sound that's got me hooked like a drug.
***********************************************************
It sure is a drug ! I just got my table last friday (CA Performance SE). On sunday, my basic plus phono-pre (Clearaudio) blew it's left channel. I have been w/o vinyl listening as of the writing of this note. I need a fix bad. Hopefully my replacement phono pre arrives by tomorrow. I upgraded to the CA Balance Plus.
To make matters worse, I feel like upgrading my table already. Needle Doctor has a 30 day return policy. I'm thinking of upgrading to the Magnum version (70mm platter) for the Avant Garde Magnum:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Avant-Garde-Magnum-CMB-Turntable-w-Satisfy?sc=2&category=347
or the Master Solution CMB
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Master-Solution-CMB-Turntable?sc=2&category=347
I'm gonna kill my friend for bringing my attention to the analog world...LOL ! |
Fatgh0st: I mean, to the point where I'm thinking about going exclusive analog in my main rig and leaving digital for the "convenience" listening elsewhere.
YES! YES! |
The only time cd's are played in my home is if the kids are there and no one else is. Otherwise its vinyl 95% or ipod/computer 5%. I can get off my fat ass every 20 minutes or so to flip an album and attention deficit disorder hasnt caused me to skip from song to song. |
Jump in...... With both feet! Don't look back. You'll love it. If u don't u can always sell the analog rig. Once u get vinyl in your blood, digital may or may not be tolerable. |
