So it is quite possible both the Technics and NAD M2 use ICEedge at their core, with the Technics having the most advanced correction system.
Cool stuff.
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Speaking of the Technics, seems the NAD M2 is also claiming some exclusive auto-correction features which are similar.
Best,
E
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You know, there are a couple of interesting hybrid Class D which are reminiscent of the carver switching rails designs.
The Yamaha EEEngine and NuPrime. In these cases the voltage rails themselves are Class D which then drive a low wattage linear amplifier sandwiched between them.
Fun times,
E
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@noble100 and @randy-11
I suggest you ignore some of these criticisms before listening. There are like a billion claims, many old or outdated or downright false.
I can tell you I cannot, blindfolded, or sighted distinguish between my current amps based on Class D and my previous, Parasound Halo A23's. The latter are linear, hi bias AB. I've also heard megabuck class A amps and mine sound as good (within their volume / power envelope).
For this reason, I completely discredit anyone who claims Class D must have x or y artifact.
Best,
E
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Ahhh, makes sense, and yes indeed it does. :)
Thanks for the clarification.
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Hi @georgehifi
I'm not sure that feedback in a digital amp works the same way, or has the same consequences as it does in a linear amplifier.
Do you have any data that indicates feedback is anything but a positive in a digital amplifier?
Best,
E
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Modern Op amps are very good implemented correctly. Most music is produced with tens of them in the signal chain at least. There's no way to avoid them entirely.
Almost all DAC's rely on them, if not external, then implemented in the filter chips themselves.
Power supply and supporting part quality matters.
Best,
E
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Was compared against Emotiva and it did not come close to the power and sound.
Emotiva is a brand I had really high hopes for. Best, E |
I guess what I'm saying is:
When I worked in circuit design we just threw a bunch of bypass caps of different types into the power supply without ever measuring their effectiveness or cost/benefits.
If I did this again, I'd take a more rigorous approach to every single power supply bypass cap. Spend money where needed as opposed to a shotgun approach.
Ahhhh, good times back then. :)
Best,
E
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@atmasphere Hah! A recent phrase has made it into the news, I'd like to co-opt as a statement I never want to make: I am being dominated by my loudspeakers
Speakers, like friends and family, should be easy to get along with for me. Not the secret Mistress whose every whim should be catered to. That's what secret mistresses are for. About headphones and power supplies: True, I also think it's a way of checking for checking the effectiveness of power supply filtering. For instance, if you get a lot more HF in your supply, may mean you need less inductive filter/shunt caps. It is also a way of knowing when you have done enough, so if I ever worked in the field again, it is a technique I'd try to apply to see if I could learn about any power supplies I worked on. Best, E |
Well, again, not a big deal, but this from a review on the Krell FBP: The output stage in all FPB amplifiers employs a free-floating feedback arrangement wherein ultra-fast regulators independently monitor the output stage and respond to the smallest drop in current or voltage with regulator response that is all but instantaneous. Bit of useless marketing/design trivia for Krell fans. :) Of course, this is only the output section, but it would be VERY weird to regulate the output but not the inputs, since the latter is much cheaper to do. Best, E |
@h2oaudio - Since I'm not that big a Krell fanboy, it is VERY likely I got the models/series wrong. :)
I only wanted to point interested parties to examples.
I am going to start another thread I think, for people who LIKE class D. :)
Best,
E
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One interesting experiment I read about I've wanted to try is to actually LISTEN to the amplifier power supply lines. The + and - supplies are, in theory, at fixed DC voltages but as the music plays, the current draw will cause the supplies to sag with each note. You can actually attach headphones (carefully, wth appropriate circuits) and hear just how much effect driving speakers has on the power supply.
This technique can be further expanded to analyze the actual frequencies that the supply is worst at isolating, and to add appropriate filtering. A fussy technique I don't know if anyone but one vendor (probably out of business) has ever done. Still, fun idea.
In stereo amps, this effect is probably one of the main reasons for increased cross-talk between channels.
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The points @h2oaudio makes about regulated vs. unregulated are pretty much true. VERY few analog amps are regulated at all. Krell did this with the FPB I believe. Sanders's Magtech is what I would call semi-regulated. Brilliant compromise.
Doing linear for a carefully implemented input section also makes a great deal of sense if you want to get the best you possibly can out of it, without requiring a massive investment in hardware that a fully regulated amp would need.
Best,
E
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Thanks for your kind words, Todd.
It's hard to be level when so many forces on this site want you to be extreme. :)
Best,
E
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Bass and amps is a funny, funny thing. Some speakers are hard to drive in the bass and sometimes that is malicious. A speaker that requires a particularly beefy amp is called "discerning" and sold at twice the price it would be otherwise. :) Some speakers are hard to drive in the treble. This is another area where some amps probably show significant audible differences. Personally I have lost all interest in hard to drive speakers because I find their total cost of ownership just too high for little value.
So while I think globally panning Class D amps as inferior to analog, there may be some truth to some amps performing better with some speakers, a problem shared by all amplifier classes.
Also, ICEPower among others, have optional input sections. This allows vendors to use their own secret sauce to the overall sound. From input transformers, tubes, whatever, so it’s quite possible for two vendors to use the same ICEPower or Hypex modules and get different results.
Best,
E
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I’m not sure if this is clear, but amps are subject to any thing in front of them. Buying an integrated w/ DAC and judging all Class D amps based on that is not going to give you a very good base upon which to judge.
Also, B&O have gone through three major generations, the latest full amp modules are the AS/ASP. There is also now a chip only version, which allows manufacturers to buy the theory, without the rest of the parts. God only knows what each maker will do with that, so it is completely unfair to use this as a basis to judge ICEPower in general as well.
The credible comparisons I have read between ICEPower AS/ASP vs. nCore put them pretty close. I think bigger differences, like in purely linear amps, will be found with amp-killer speakers. "Normal" amplifier friendly speakers may not care very much.
From my listening, I put the ICEPower AS/ASP modules as good as the Parasound A21/A23 series. Both are very modern, clean, open and quiet, and grainless. Based on this, I debunk the idea that class D is in any way inferior to linear amps. Now, if you want to argue your particular tube amp sounds better than that, well go ahead, but it won’t be due to digital vs. analog.
Best,
E
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Kvetching does not equal documentation.
The latest generation of ICEPower (AS or ASP) are wonderful, and to my ears indistinguishable from good A/AB amps.
Any attempt to use them as examples of Class D inferiority is highly suspect to me, based on experience.
I'd be happy to evaluate vs. nCore or Pascal when some one provides me the funds... :)
Best,
E
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Those imaging effects are what happens when you have a mismatched speaker pair. Either drivers or crossover components did not match.
Best,
E
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Having had the chance to hear ICEPower amps the same day as a complete Pass system I have to say I can't concur with the OP, and that the writing style, and omission of specific details has me honestly scratching my head about his / her intentions.
Buy what you like, but the best Class D is very very good. I am a fan of the latest generation B&O amps for many reasons including affordability, size, environmental friendliness.
I do wish I could afford the space for CJ Premiere 8's, which I would probably consider the ICEPower's better for fun and interest, but I cannot, and am quite happy with the compromise.
Best,
E
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