Hi everyone,
So I thought I would let this go, but I can’t baby!
I am now about 2 weeks into this experiment, and I may actually prefer the MR caps to the CMR. While the CMR may appear at first install more lively, after break in, that mostly goes away and I’m left with far less forgiving caps than I was with the MR.
So the question is, do I want caps to reveal every flaw, or do I want caps that will allow me to enjoy more music? This is my dilemma. The CMR is just much less forgiving of recording and source devices. The MR caps however have a consistent mellowness which doesn’t change from recording to recording. They may also seem less lively, at least compared to fresh CMR caps.
Of course, I’ve spent a lot of time listening to speakers, and little changes. I’m not sure anyone but a teenage girl would be able to hear some of what I’m now aware of, but right now, I’m going to see if I can fully salvage my MR caps and go back.
It may help you to understand that these speakers are FLAT past 20kHz. The common roll-off in the top octave many speakers have is absent. As a matter of synergy, the MR caps may just be better for speakers this flat, the CMR for the more common design choices / tweeters.
Best,
E
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Hi Audio,
I think the bass i that sense is really nice. You get a lot of the "surface" sounds of drums, of hands or sticks hitting the skins, and more of the body of acoustic instruments as well like violin's, guitars, etc.
I think the liveliness, open, easy breathing nature of the CMR contributes a great deal.
Best,
E
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Hi Audio,
The only problem I have with the CMR is that lesser sources which have any sort of stridency to them now show more clearly depending on programming. With the Mytek Brooklyn, this is NEVER a problem. With the Oppo 103 sometimes. Depends on what I'm watching.
To my ears the CMR is the cooler of the two.
I have not tried the CMR in the woofer, plus since all those caps are shunts I tend to go cheap and stay with ESA caps.
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And thanks everyone for playing with me regarding these caps. I'm going to leave this project alone for a long time.
Perhaps if I get a sponsor to try some much more expensive copper foil caps I'll come back.
Best,
E
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Hi audio4pass,
I measured and simulated the effects of the bypass caps. There's no perceptible change in phase or amplitude. I can't explain the added ...not necessarily warmth, but liquidity, in the midrange by adding the 0.1uF cap.
I agree, the Mundorf SIO is the coolest cap.
I also think I like CMR better than the Mundorf SIO, but it remains cooler than the MR to my ears.
I'll give you an example. I use a Mytek Brooklyn and Oppo 103 as my sources. With the MR they both sound pretty good. With the CMR at times, the Oppo sounds harder. This was never an issue with the MR.
<< shrug >>
Clarity MR and CMR remain my favorite "affordable" boutique capacitor. I would not trade anything from the Mundorf lines for them. We'll just differ on where we put them in relationship.
Best,
E
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Hi everyone,
So I’m pretty much done listening to the CMR’s, and ready to give a verdict in my system. Oddly, I find the case colors of the MR and CMR line exactly opposite of how they sound. the Red CMR sounds cool, while the blue MR sounds warm.
The CMR’s start of WAY cooler sounding than the MR, but also less congested, more effortless. They break in over time and the coolness wears off, but they remain a little too cool for me, and a little disjoint. Maybe this is a matter of my crossover.
I still have a more open, and cooler cap than before. So overall I think this is an improvement. My original impression that the CMR is a cool cap along the lines of the Mundorf Silver/Oil but without the juiciness/color added remains true for me.
In any event, I did end up going with a very small Audyn TC bypass cap
on the larger CMR cap, which brought back the warmth and also seems to
do a good job of better connecting the midrange to the treble.
I like both the MR and CMR more than I like the Mundorf Silver/Oil caps. The MR is naturally warmest, CMR almost as cool as the Mundorf S/O. I still recommend a bypass cap on larger CMR caps.
Best,
E
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By the way, I do hear the more open and more dynamic aspects of the CMR line. I'm also saying that so far it is significantly cooler.
Imaging is not gelling either, but I have been testing asymmetrically so hopefully as they age together this will improve.
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Hi Dave,
What measurements seem to change with break-in? The Farads seem very stable to me.
Best,
E
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I'm going to mention @dgarretson the US rep to see if he would like to chime in.
So I finally had the health and energy to rebuild my crossovers. Hopefully this trend continues! :) Also I am relying a lot more on barrier strips, so future updates or comparisons won't require as many tools.
As a reminder, the crossover I am using is a 3rd order high-pass filter going to a Mundorf AMT tweeter. My previous caps were clarity MR, the large one bypassed with Audyn TC. My comparisons are the BARE CMR vs. the MR + Audyn. As I mentioned, my health and energy are a factor, so please, no criticisms that I didn't go through a long QA eval process.
Anyway, I find the CMR caps interesting indeed. They are cooler than the MR+Audyn TC caps for certain. From the contact/surface sounds of large drums, to cymbals and top-hat there is noticeably more information there.
In this sense it is definitely moving towards the Mundorf Supreme line, without it's juiciness.
I learned recently the MR caps are still around and honestly I can see why. The difference is bigger than merely more detail, or smoothness, it's a noticeable change in overall temperature.
The full rebuild just happened recently, so I'll see if I adjust. At first listen, it's a mix of pros and cons which I'll have to spend some time getting used to.
Best,
E
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audio4pass
When anyone types very short sentences it can seem like you are giving orders. Please be more considerate, and treat others like your friends who share a fun hobby.
Best,
E
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This is slightly off topic, but I think it’s good for audiophiles to have an idea of what they are listening to. In addition to B&W and Magico, I have found another famous speaker brand that relies on Mundorf, YG. In this article: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/yg_acoustics.htmIt’s hard to see, but there’s a little link which has a set of slides to the crossover: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/pics/yg_16.jpg Mundorf provides a very nice turn-key PCB assembly service for you. I’m not sure if they do the PCB layout as well, but High-end manufacturers get the entire crossover, including driver wiring, fully assembled from Mundorf, so it’s kind of irresistible for them to go with all Mundorf parts including coils and resistors. |
I'm about a week into burning in one side of my CMR caps.
One interesting point, while music from my Mytec DAC sounds brighter and fuller, the Oppo Bluray player (103) is now sounding more and more harsh.
It will be middle of next week before I get all the parts to re-make the filters.
Yeah, I know others like to do things differently. That's fine, but I'm going to do things my way and I hope you appreciate the information as I post it. I'm not going to change my test techniques. I haven't the time / money / energy right now. So, please accept my comments in the context I offer them.
Best,
E
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ESR: At 4.7uF: ~ 0.38 Ohms between 1 to 10kHz for both MR and CMR. Maybe 0.01 Ohms lower for MR. audio4pass - Your typing sometimes comes off as very rude and demanding. I don't get paid by you, so I would appreciate it if you spoke to me a little more politely like I try to for others.
are you sure ?, how many hours are burned the cmr
So, part of the rudeness I sense from you is that you seem to not be reading along in the thread. If you had, you would see that when I typed this it was very early in the burn-in process. I'm not giving my final impressions, but putting in my impressions here as the burn-in continues. I look forward to sharing my experiences with you so long as we treat each other with respect and friendship. Best, E |
Oh, you are right. :) It must be huge and expensive.
If you are looking in that price/size/performance bracket I would love for you to try Jupiter and tell us your own impressions. :)
I wish I could afford an all Jupiter Cu film crossover, but I can't, so I have to rely on my own ears.
Next week I'll try to bypass what I have and I'll see how good the CMR is to the MR.
Best,
E
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Hi Sherod!
FYI, these two caps are not really equivalent. The Audyn is VERY physically large and very expensive for the uF. Also the largest Audyn TC cap is around 2.2uF. For these three reasons it’s much more useful as a bypass cap.
In my case I’m using around 4.7uF and 12uF on my tweeter.
So for instance, if I used 10x 1.2uF Audyn it would cost around $48 x 10 = $480, while Clarity CMR for 1 x 12uF is $130. So Audyn is about 3x more expensive, very much in the range of Jupiter Cu Foil and Duelund equivalents.
As you may have read, I’ve tested MR + 0.1uF Audyn TC and it was a very good improvement with the larger cap only.
Right now, the CMR is beating this combination, by a tiny bit.
Next week or so I’ll be able to tell you if the CMR is worth bypassing as well.
Best,
E
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@timlub
Thanks tim. Letting a thread get off topic is the death knell. The purpose gets lost and those who were interested no longer will be. If I am guilty of this too I apologize.
Threads are free. If you have a cool idea for a topic start a new one. It is rude to the others who are paying attention, and the original poster to hijack it. If you think it's tangentially related, post a message saying:
"Hey, I'm starting a new thread on active crossovers here, please chime in"
Best,
E
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Audio
I am doing the testing I am doing exactly because of the differences. :) That and that I really want to remake the crossovers and need to wait for resistors to come in.
The nature of engineering and testing is not always to build up full prototypes, and then fix what is wrong. Engineering, like science, is built up from smaller tests, small hypothesis that lead us to larger goals.
As part of my own process, I first do this 1-sided capacitor test to prove whether or not there really are any differences at all, as they are most clear this way. It is much harder for the placebo effect to interfere and relies a lot less on aural memory.
The notes I made about imaging support the hypothesis that these two capacitors are NOT equivalent. If I had a rock solid image with two different caps L and R it would support the hypothesis that the two caps are equivalent. On the other hand, this test cannot evaluate the overall difference in imaging of the two caps.
Once this testing is over, and I have strong evidence for the differences in dynamics and tonal balance, then I will rebuild both crossovers and be able to fully assess the overall imaging.
Of course, another approach would be to build two entirely different crossovers. Given how I destroyed the first, that may very well be how I should have gone, but honestly I'm pretty lazy and don't want to switch back and forth for these trials. :)
Best,
E
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I’m at the 48 hour mark. The CMR still sounds brighter and more open / uncongested compared to the Clarity MR + Audyn Cu but it’s definitely getting smoother as time goes on.
Imaging is suffering somewhat. The left (CMR) has a better sense of instrument presence, but the L and R speakers aren’t matching well enough anymore to create a broad sound stage.
Hopefully this all gets fixed when I replace the R with CMR’s too.
I did do a lot of measurements to see if I could find a reason for the difference in sound using Dayton DATS V2.
Honestly no number stood out except precision. The MR caps were about 1% off, so the 0.1 Audyn Cu bypass cap and the Duelund silver foil pushed them up to nearly perfect values. The CMR caps are dead on accurate in value.
Best,
E
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Audio...see the time stamps on my posts..
i wont have a final assessment for a week or su until i rebuild bith sides. |
@audioman58
Good info! I've been lusting after the Jupiter Cu foil, but man, about 5-7x more expensive, far too rich for me even as prototypes.
Best,
E
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What does seem to be consistent in my current listening trials is the CMR breathes a lot better than the MR.
I know it's a weird thing to say, but if you have heard GOOD high efficiency speakers you'll have an idea of what I mean. The top end just sounds like it was slightly congested before and now has completely opened up.
Hopefully this quality lasts through the break-in. :)
Best,
E
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I think it has some features which move the CMR more in that direction, yes.
But that is very general. I don't hear the over-saturation, over colorful treble. It is cooler/brighter. For a while it also sounded grainy, I hope that goes away soon. :)
Best,
E
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That is up to you. Magico and B&W are big fans. I don’t think people
realize at the top end of these ranges how much you are listening to
the caps instead of the speaker drivers. It’s a big deal.
This is also about Mundorf Supreme |
Very smooth, glass like quality to mid and top octaves, but there’s also
a scintillation or over-saturation of colors in the mid to top. It’s
not unpleasant, but it’s NOT natural. Real sounds and instruments don’t
sound like this"
This is the Mundorf Supreme line. |
Hi @grannyring
Thanks!
I meant to say "The most expensive speakers in the Magico and B&W lines rely heavily on Mundorf Supreme's for their sound quality."
Best,
E
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audio4pass
I haven’t heard every Mundorf Supreme but here are the traits I associate with them, in general. (The Mundorf MKP is a completely different animal, dark like the Clarity ESA only with more low level detail).
Very smooth, glass like quality to mid and top octaves, but there’s also a scintillation or over-saturation of colors in the mid to top. It’s not unpleasant, but it’s NOT natural. Real sounds and instruments don’t sound like this.
So, which is better? Clarity MR or Mundorf Supreme (and it’s varieties)??
That is up to you. Magico and B&W are big fans. I don’t think people realize at the top end of these ranges how much you are listening to the caps instead of the speaker drivers. It’s a big deal.
Personally, I wanted more natural sounding instruments. The kind of sound you hear when you walk up to a saxophone or violin busker on the T without an amplifier.
A lot of people do NOT agree with me, which is why I will die penniless and alone. :)
Best,
E
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Also, to anyone doing capacitor comparisons, it is WAY easier to do them by replacing them in only one channel than both.
This actually reminds me a little of Carver's approach to amplifier comparison. http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challengeIt would be really interesting to build a test bed to compare 2 film caps to each other simultaneously, then use that to record the delta between them in terms of performance using actual music. I'm a genius. It needs a catchy name and a sponsor. Best, E
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So less than 24 hours in I really don't like the change. Yes, there's more air, but it's due to an exaggerated treble IMHO. It has the treble hype of the top end Mundorf's without their glass smoothness.
More later.
Erik
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Cymballs sound more prominent now.
I want to wait for a few days before assessing that this is a real difference.
I think there are some fantastic sounding metal dome's. They don't all have the oil-can resonance that characterized so much of the metal domes of the 1980's 1990's. Few of these are in commercial speakers though... ( Zing! ) hahahah> :)
The AMT tweets I am using are superbly open. Measurably flat and lacking of compression of distortion.
Best,
E
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OK, caps are in my left speaker only. And they are hacked in with jumper cables.
I like to change caps on one side only sometimes, it helps me figure out what the real differences are by what now sounds muted.
This will probably change over next 48 hours... but...
First impressions are this cap has a lot more extension, which makes the MR sound dark by comparison, and has tons more air.
Some of this is normal to a new cap. What matters is what happens by Tuesday. :)
When the parts arrive from Parts Connexion (probably Friday) I'll rebuild both sides and give you all an update.
Best,
E
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Hi Audi4Pass,
It wasn’t even that subtle. :)
The big cap sounded more natural and liquid when bypassed. I wouldn’t say it was anything even as nuanced as imaging or dynamic range per se. More about the decay of notes and perception of space. Like the larger cap would "cut off" the notes too soon.
I tried 1 Audyn TC 0.1uF cap on each. The Audyn TC made a huge improvement in this area on the large cap, but no diff on the small cap.
I strongly suspect that building up a big MR cap out of smaller one's would work as well, but Clarity pricing did not make this affordable at all, as you'd pay significantly more in the end.
Best,
E
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More info: The Audyn TC bypass was 0.1uF. The Duelund was 0.047uF. So, proportionately each changed their cap about 1%.
Also, this high pass filter goes to a larger Mundorf AMT. Measurably and sonically the equal or better of most Be and diamond domes. It has the speed and transparency with better dynamic range and linearity. The larger surface area limits dispersion which is exactly what I wanted when I designed the speakers.
OT: Nothing pisses me off more than armchair speaker designers mansplaining why AMT’s won’t work or are inferior because of their dispersion.
Best,
E
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The Audyn bypassed the 12 uF. Good improvement.
The Duelund bypassed the smaller cap. No noticeable change. I also had tried the Audyn. It changed the tone, but not the sound quality, so I chalked it up to simple uF change, not a real sound quality improvement.
Based on a number of tests I had concluded the failing of the MR caps was at the larger end of the spectrum, while smaller caps performed nearly flawlessly.
The CMR line should remove this issue so that is what I am looking for.
Best,
E
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Hi Tim,
Mains were 4 and 12uF Clarity MR caps.
Unfortunately after destroying my first crossover it seems I used way too much hot glue to swap caps out very easily. I'm going to have to order new parts. :(
Best,
E
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I should warn you guys, the big cap is currently bypassed by an Audyn TC, and the small cap by a Duelund silver foil.
Silver foil IMHO did nothing. Audyn is priceless.
So my goal is to see if the new caps by themselves are as good as this combination.
I keep looking at this filter and man, I think I'm going to have to sacrifice one if not both of these caps. << cries >>
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Man I have been slacking. I've been afraid of dismantling my current crossovers to put these in. :) I didn't do a very good job of making them upgradeable. :) I'll try to get to it this weekend.
I'm putting in a pair of caps, 4uF and 12uF
Best,
E
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I just received Clarity CMR caps that will go into my 2-way Mundorf/ScanSpeak system soon.
ESR was normal, around 0.4 Ohms @1kHz for 10uF.
Caps are now puck shaped, instead of cans. About 12% smaller by volume. They also measure really tightly. Like, within 0.2% of each other and of spec. While the MR versions were also pretty tightly controlled, they were about 1% under marked values on my measurements. Still well within the 3% spec.
Going from 1% to 0.2% of marked value speaks to greatly improved manufacturing tolerances. Refinements like this are not at all easy to make.
I’ll add listening impressions much later.
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Sorry DM! I have been short of cash flow of late, but I have a great speaker kit I was going to try to market based on the MR versions.
The hype is exceptional. We'll see!
Erik
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Great to hear. :) Wait for the end of the first 100 hours though. :) Lots of caps and electronics sound extra dynamic at first and mellow out.
Best,
Erik
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@dmhenley Wouldn't that be nice?
I wish there was. I did speak to Norbert Mundorf at a show, promoting the 30th Anniversay edition speaker kits. He was pretty convinced capacitors changed sound quality when new, but we never got into any "why's" about it.
Audio Research has started promoting the idea of taking around 400 hours for their SS gear to break in. I assume most of that is in the caps.
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Hey @dgarretson
Question, do you have any expectations for how the CMR vs. MR compare in terms of ESR? I'm wondering how close they are to drop-in replacements for each other so I can gauge if I'll need to make adjustments to a tweeter filter.
Thanks,
Erik
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Hi @dgarretson
Thanks for backing me up, people usually think I make this stuff up.
Let's say 2uF and 10uF.
Any sort of comparison would be useful. Like "Exactly the same, half" etc. I should stop being so cheap and just buy a set. I just want to order everything I need at once.
Best,
Erik
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Forgot to answer your voltage question. :) Lowest available, so I think that's 400V for CMR?
Thanks,
Erik
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