The Aurender/Dave combo will sound and work great - guaranteed!
Chord Dave or Ayre QX5 Twenty DAC???
Down to two choices in DAC's, the Chord Dave or the Ayre QX-5 Twenty. Comes down to best sound or versatility and cost. Speakers are Wilson Audio Sasha's and amp is T+A 2500R. Love the versatility of the Ayre but the sound of the Chord Dave is phenomenal, not sure if the Ayre could compare. Not sure if the Chord would still sound as good without spending mass amounts on a power regenerator and power cable.
117 responses Add your response
Music, what type of music do you listen to most of the time? Have you listened to the Dave and QX5 yet? If not, you probably want to try and get both into your system. I spoke with a few guys in the last couple of days about this thread. A few own the QX5 and one oned the Dave, but switched to the QX5 for the better bass as well as the flexibility as a digital hub and for Roon end point which I don't think Dave is. I don't think I could ever purchase a product worth more than a couple of thousand without getting it into my own system to audition first, lol. Good luck. Tons of great products to play with, that's for sure. Happy for you no matter what you ultimately end up with. |
ctsooner, thanks for all your input. The Sasha's have plenty of bass. I listen to many types of music, love amazing vocals, lots of jazz, some electronic, love chill music like Thievery Corporation, some 80's music--mostly on vinyl...I have heard the Ayre QX5 Twenty with the Ayre integrated AX5 (?) with smaller speakers than mine at an audio store. I also heard the Dave, but with electronics much more expensive than mine. I am not able to hear either in my system. I really liked both, the Ayre was smooth and natural w stellar vocals. Loved it. The Dave for me was more dynamic, eerie and dramatic. Loved it also. Will buy one of these two DACS in one week. If I get the Dave, I will also get the Aurender A10, which also has MQA and storage that I need. If I think my funds will be too tight, I will get the Ayre. |
Hi everyone, thank you for the kind words. I would just like to caution everyone to not put too much stock into one individuals personal choice. Just last week I loaned out 4 DAC's to a local client in Tampa and he chose the Ayre QX-5 Twenty in his system. The Roon endpoint and the overall relaxed "just right" sonics were what appealed to him. About a month ago, another chose the Chord DAVE. And as others have said, the Berkeley REF2 is also excellent (albeit more than double the price of the Ayre and others). There are so many great digital products on the market and it all comes down to personal preference, music tastes, system synergy, etc. I learned a lot time ago not to guess what I think people might like. Ultimately, keep an open mind, listen and decide for yourself. If any of you are in the Sarasota/Tampa area, I would welcome you for a visit to my store to meet and listen. |
Very well put for sure. To me these shoot outs are nice to read about and if you know the ear of the person posting, you can whittle things down a bit possibly. I'll probably take you up on a visit that first week of April. Have to watch daughter in Daytona for the national collegiate cheer championships the 4th-that Friday or Saturday. I will leave Sarasota airport that Monday afternoon I believe. I"ll let you know the schedule when I get closer. Glad to see a Vandy dealer on the west coast. lol. |
I got no skin in the game but know of and have heard both of these companies fine products, both have some good strengths, we used to sell Chord and do not now sell them so we have no skin in the game nor do we sell Ayre. There is one advantage that the Chord Dave has the Aqua Hifi Dac have that the Ayre doesn't. The Chord is FPGA based and is easy to update, the Forumla is designed on all separate boards and Aqua has shown they can and will offer reasonably priced updates, I haven't heard the Forumla but we have the Lascala and it is excellent I haven't heard the Forumla I will say that the Lascalla is excellent. So one thing I would ask with the Ayre, is how easy would it be to upgrade? Aside from sound quality, ease of upgrading, in the turbulent world of digital is a very good thing. For those on the East Coast we, Audio Doctor have one of the largest collections of digital gear on display: we display: Lumin, Aurender, Mytek, Aqua, EMM Labs, Light Harmonic, Baetis, Cary Audio, T+A, Nad, Naim, Nuprime and a few others. For those who haven't heard the Light Harmonic Davinci is amazing and we have one of these rare dacs! Troy Audio Doctor www.audiodoctor.com old website new one coming soon 877 428 2873 |
Troy, I do not understand your comments above regarding the FGPA. I found two references below that describe Ayre's use of the FGPA. Note #1: "The Ayre QX-5 Twenty DAC uses the ESS ES9038PRO DAC chip which is used for D/A conversion with Ayre's proprietary FPGA-based minimum phase filter. Note #2: "The ES9038PRO used in the Ayre QX-5 DAC, combined with Ayre’s custom minimum-phase digital filter, implemented in a low noise FPGA". What is the difference between the the Chord's FGPA based implementation and Ayre's FPGA-based minimum phase filter implementation? Since both DAC's are using a FGPA, does this mean that both DAC's can be upgraded by re-programing the FGPA? |
Troy is just mistaken as he doesn't sell Ayre and probably isn't up to speed on it like he is the Aqua that he sells. The Ayre is very easy to update. Ayre as a company has one of, if not the best track record of offering fairly cost updates for their products. They have at least a 7 year life cycle and for audio, that's rare as most anyone would agree. They were working with ESS and got the first chips to play with and then to come to market with. As with their twenty upgrades to their amps, they will offer whatever updates they do to the QX5/20. They have one of the larger staff's of engineers and are always working on bettering their products. They have already offered many software upgrades to the QX5/20 that have made the unit more fun to play with and there will be plenty more in the future. Wisnon is dead on in what he calls marketing. I like a bunch of the DAC's that are spoken about in this thread and some that are not. There is not best no matter the cost. There are a couple of 20k plus (one MUCH more), that I wouldn't buy if they were 5k as they are way too dry for my tastes. I've heard both in at least three systems that are worthy of their cost and I never 'got them'. You don't have to spend more than 14k or so to get top digital sound these days. Yes, I got the Ayre and not because I had to or because a friend told it or any of that. I personally got it for their rep as a company and I knew what the Codex was to the under 5k DAC's and I loved the idea of a full function, digital remote front end. I had to have a Roon end point even if I wasn't running Roon yet as I believe that's going to be the future. I wanted a DAC that optimized every input and didn't just talk about all their money being put into only the USB input. I needed something that could remotely control all my digital inputs as I have a few and that list may grown. I wanted to be able to have a top USB, true balanced and ethernet connect as I may or may not network (wasn't sure at the time) and I wanted flexibility. That's not important to many of my friends, but if it's offered in a box that sounds as good or better than other DAC's, then I wanted in. Sound is what kept me in. I can honestly say that I'm in touch off the boards with at least 15 users of the QX5/20 and my system is probably the least expensive of the bunch. Everyone is wildly excited about it. That's rare in audio I believe. This isn't a commercial for the Ayre either as I'm not a dealer and get nothing from sharing thoughts. I know a few Totaldac users and they will also rave about their DAC's. I also have a feeling that the Brinkman will be the same as I heard it and loved it. The only problem is that for me, it's at least 6k more than the QX5/20 and I can't see spending that much more on these DAC's. Even Michael Lavorgna said that his Totaldac isn't that much better sounding than the QX5/20. I know Michael and we talked about what and how we listen so I know where we differ and where we are the same. I personally respect the heck out of him. I've known many a reviewer over the years and some are fair and outstanding even if you don't like the same things they do. There are few folks who listen to as much digital as he does. |
No the difference between the Ayre's FPGA and the Chords are too totally different design concepts, they share one common thing an FPGA can hold a set of programming instructions, like RAM. Ayre is a Chip based Dac, and uses a specific Dac chip, and runs its own programing for filtering. Chord uses an FPGA which runs everything, they do not use an AKM or ESS or Burr Brown dac chip, not a single oneso in terms of upgradability every parameter is instantly unpgradable. |
Yes Troy, Chord uses a PULSE ARRAY Dac withthe WTA filter at increasing tap lengths. The point I think Cstooner was making is that there are many ways to update and the reputation of the manufacturers matter most. I and many others have sent back our Lampis for reasonably priced updates that include both HARDWARE updates and firmware updates. In some cases even digital architecture changes, like going from Delta sigma to R2R ladder, etc. Finally, sometimes you do need hardware upgrades. In my case the superclock additions to the Amanero USB was a most rewarding upgrade and addressed the weakest point of Amanero (great software, but lagging hardware in terms of clocs used). I also had the chipless DSD specs moved up from a 256 max to 512 capabiliy (getting my PC ready for DSD8X/DXD upsampling). There are no Dac chips in my Dac, despite have 2 DSD (chipless) and 1 PCM (ladder array) engines. I have never owned an Ayre, but have spoken with Charlie at length. Stellar reputation. I own a Chord and their Customer service is great. Owned several lampis and have had wonderful Customer service with Lukasz and enjoyed upgrading to get his periodic advances. Everytime my Lampi comes back there is an improvement and he is always making advances. You cant go wrong with any of these top guys, except for personal taste and system synergy. Really! |
Winson, totally agree. Many DAC makers are starting to offer these soft and hardware upgrades. If they didn't, I don't think their sales would be quite as strong. I would not purchase one from a company that wasn't going to do updates and then wouldn't offer them. Makes no business sense as the companies can earn a bit extra cash, but keep their users very happy and content and not wanting to sell off to get the DAC of the day. |
Plus brand loyalty is important to keep your revenue streams going. So many high end purchasers have no problem with a 7-10 years life span for their product. This way we can do a fairly inexpensive refresh around year 5 or so and keep the gear for at least 10 years, sell used and roll that into the NEWEST tech. All I know is that every upgrade Ayre has offered (I went from AX7 to the evolution upgrade and then from the AX5 to the twenty upgrade) has been a game changer for them. Just huge upgrades. I feel the 20 upgrade took the company to the upper crust of high end audio. Just great values. I'm sure many of you feel the same about the products you own. As you basically stated, if and made, they can usually upgrade, but only if they can physically fit it into the box (yes, I had a DAC that wasn't going to fit the box, but eventually he said it would). The only problem I have with the smaller companies at times is that they often are month's to a year or more behind in getting product out, especially if they have life circumstances that get in their way. That's one reason I moved on from my original DAC to the Ayre. I was a great great sounding DAC and I was going to do the upgrade to the new state of the art one he came out with, but it was going to take way too long to get done and he's a one man show with someone helping and if things happen, who's going to work on it etc... again, that's just ME and MY concerns with the smaller companies. We all know what we are getting into when making our purchasing decisions. It's all good as it's pros and cons on each side. |
Personally I think the Chord Dave is overpriced. I heard one through very nice headphones at the recent Bristol exhibition. No doubt it sounded good but so did the new Sony Dac at a fraction of the price. A shame really cos Sony in 2017 has not got the perception of making genuine High End gear but they do. |
Why would anyone use another HP amp with it? It's the best HP amp I've ever used. I've heard it balanced once as I don't personally have balanced cables yet for my IEM's, but I love it though the single ended jack. They took painstaking time and effort to make the amp and they had nearly carte blanch when designing it. It's truly a word class HP amp that eventually should get it's due. The Codex has a really nice HP amp, but this one is leaps and bounds above that. I like it much better than any of the Woo amps, that I feel are very good amps. |
I'm sure you will love the Dave. Been using the headphones with the QX5 as I wait for my speaker to ship this week. Best headphone amp I"ve heard by far and I've heard the TOL Woo amps, I just sold off my STax Lambda's (have a portable amp for them if anyone has interest, lol). Unfolding the first layer of MQA should make a nice difference as I stream a ton of Tidal. Funny as I have a friend who just got the QX5 over the Dave. He spent two weeks with both in his house and felt the QX was just overall better, especially in the bass which is the difference I have heard. We all hear differently so Im' sure you liked the sound of the Dave over the Ayre. Enjoy :) |
I'd never use a digital pre. The Ayre's digital pre is about as good as I've heard and it's still not even close to using the pre on my AX5/20. I've had the Dave in my own system a couple of times and I've listened with borrowed LCD3's and the top Hifiman can's (don't love them like so many do). I like the headphone amp on the Ayre much better. It's just a more coherent sound than the Dave IRT to the bass. I've spoken to a couple of DAC designers now and they feel the same way. I love the Totaldac and if it was money no object and I had a set of Vandersteen 7's with reference amps/pre, then I'd get the Totaldac that is twice the price of the Ayre and much more expensive than the Dave. Again, I think it's a great product and whoever owns one will love it for a long time, but to ME, the Ayre gives me similar great mids and highs along with deeper and just as musical bass. I could have afforded the Dave and that's why it was in the house. It has a certain charm about it that most other just done. Honestly, I like the Ayre, TotalDac, Dave, Trinity ref and a few others better than I like the Rossini. The Rossini to me, like all the DCS DAC's are a tad dry. Accurate as heck and excellent DAC's (better be for that money), but they are not as musical to MY EARS as a Dave or QX5/20 or TotalDac. I know that I"m not the only one who feels this way either. JMHO |
I am an Ayre dealer. One great feature of the QX-5 is the network input. This is the way I demo. I use a high end network extender with a Cardas network cable straight into the back of the QX-5. Then I use Roon from a laptop in the back of the room. I am not sure anyone talked about this important aspect of the Ayre DAC. Oh and all of the spdif inputs are excellent as they use a type of buffer... |
rshad000, I bought the Dave over the Ayre and I am still happy I did. The Ayre is smooth and clean and you can listen for a long time with no fatigue. Excellent DAC for sure. I personally did not like the look of the Ayre and it just does not look as clean and classy as the rest of my equipment. The Dave gives you more of everything...more detail, bigger soundstage, often eerie vocals that I love. It is definitely more engaging. Still love my vinyl set up more, but when I listen to digital, the Dave is special & different than my other DAC's. Not better or worse than vinyl, different. My High Fidelity Reveal magnetic cables also seemed to take it to another level. I also preferred using the Aurender and Aurender App over Roon. Just seems to sound better. The Aurender works flawlessly. I was so tired of MacBook Pro and Amarra issues, especially with every update. |
Glad you are enjoying the Dave. Now that I've upgraded my speakers to the Vandersteen Quatro CT (painted not the wood), I've noticed even more detail and dynamics from the QX5/20. It's still not quite as dynamic as my old Empirical Audio OSDE/SE, but it's much more musical. The bass on it is sick. When I got it, I still had the Treo's and the bass was so much better than I had heard through the Treo's. With the built in subs in the Quatro's, the Ayre is killer. There was one passage of an orchestra (sorry, I have a lot of 24/192 music of all genre's so I just listen, but I don't know who I was listening to) that had tympani. I never heard it through the Treo's as it's really low. It was there in spades (this is the second song I listened to that I heard tympani drums were I either never heard it or it was faint). You could hear each drum and the tone and you could here each head stroke and the sound differences. We were amazed at this. I will be using that passage with other equipment when I try things out. I have heard the Brinkmann once and was very impressed. I think that will also be in the discussion for folks. It's funny as we all like totally different things. I think the Dave sounds great as I've said and I'd own one if I didn't have what I have. I wanted everything the Ayre put into it, but I love the look. It's a perfect match for my AX5/20, lol. I don't think the Dave is ugly by any means, but for me, I like the Ayre look better. I know many who like the look of the Chord products better. Glad that you listened and got what you liked best. That's what it's all about. :) |
@musicfx Any update on your impressions of the DAVE/ Aurender combo? How does DAVE DAC compare to DAC in the A10? thx |
Scott, with the Dave DAC, you can listen to it for hours, wide soundstage, amazing often eerie vocals & detail. When I try the Aurender, I have to go back to the Dave. The Dave is great with all resolutions of music. You do not need MQA with it. I changed the power cable on my amp to a HF Reveal and the Aurender DAC sounds much much better. I have another DAC / music player (more musical, more analog, less analytical, less detail than the Dave) which is more expensive than the Dave by almost double and the Aurender sounds very similar to it in A/B comparisons when using Tidal at low to mid volume levels. The Dave and the Aurender work flawlessly together. |
Scott, I tried a T+A PDP 3000 CD/DAC in my system. SACD’s and CD’s NEVER sounded better. It was alive, crazy, you would forget to breathe when listening to it. It was the sound I wanted. I had problems with using the Aurender with it. I had to power the Aurender down and restart it for the PDP 3000 to recognize it. It worked well with my MacBookPro. After it was gone, I missed that sound. I then changed the DAVE & my CD transport for T+A’s newest music player, the MP 3100hv to match my T+A amp. CD’s, especially SACD’s sound great, but not as great as the PDP 3000, but much better than my previous set up. The MP 3100 works well with the Aurender. With MQA on the Aurender the sound is very similar to the MP3100 with slightly less dynamics. There was a huge difference with the DAVE & I always switched back to the DAVE. DAVE sounded great with every level of resolution. The MP 3100hv has more dynamics, better bass & is more analog sounding than the DAVE. The DAVE has a bigger soundstage, has more detail, is clearer and has a darker background. Also, the Aurender iPad app is superior to T+A’s. I am very happy with my system now, however, I miss the big soundstage, massive detail and more than anything, the almost eerie like vocals of the DAVE (& the great headphone amp on the DAVE). My T+A amp has a headphone amp but the DAVE’s is FAR superior. If I had to do it all over again, I would of kept the DAVE, changed the Aurender to the N10 and tried some different cables. |
I can honestly say the N10 is the best server I've heard to date and that includes some of the mega computer based servers. I have a buddy who is doing a shoot out of servers and has had everything from Boulder down in his room and said the N10 is easily the one to get. I have heard the Dave a few more times with the N10 and it just doesn't have the bass that the Ayre does. It's got a beautiful mid range and the top end is nice too and never fatiguing. I do like the Brinkmann better though as well as a few others. Again, at this price point there are very good DAC's with different flavors. I own an am about to sell the Chord Mojo. I'm also into personal audio. I looked at getting the Hugo 2 and instead went with the Astell n Krell 380copper and amp. Probably just not my cup of tea, but obviously yours which is cool. |
Hi czubero, the PDP3000 to me sounded slightly better than the MP 3100 for SACD & CD playback. Aside from slightly better CD playback, using it as a DAC, they both sounded similar to me. I still prefer the MP 31000 and bought it instead. It is more versatile. Love it. The PDP did not work well with my Aurender A10. The MP 3100 works seamlessly with the Aurender. I sold the A10 and was going to upgrade to the Aurender N10 but Tidal sounds so good using only the MP3100 I do not think I will. My original goal was to have amazing sound from Tidal & I am very happy with the MP 3100HV in achieving this. I am currently debating on whether or not to change my PA 3000HV for the PA 3100 (& one day get the PS 3100) - or - buy demos of the HV separate amp and pre amp. How do you like your PA 3100? Do you think the PS 3100 makes much of a difference adding it? |
Musicfx, Thank you for your post and response. I could only compare the PA3100 with my previously owned Hegel H30. I noticed an improvement over the H30, Blacker background, better soundstage and more tube like sound emerge from the PA3100. It has helped to calm down a bit the tweeters of my Sopras. I also purchased the signal processor module which i set up to minimize the low medium bass emphasis on the Sopras. I have not notice any coloration or soundstage degradation in the sound when the signal processor module is connected. I was also suprised in how good this Amp drive the Big sopras at medium/high volumes, extremely well controlled when compared to the H30. |
Hi czubero I use the PA 3000HV to power Wilson Audio Alexia’s. No problems here, sounds great. Can definitely put cracks in the walls if I wanted. As far as Tidal playback, it is so dynamic & detailed. Really impressive. Excellent recoded SACD’s sound really really good, just different than Tidal. With the Alexia’s I prefer Tidal over most CD’s. With my Sasha’s, they both sounded really good. I believe the Alexia’s are just more revealing. |
Hi Musicfx, Wow, Nice speakers those Alexias. I have heard them about a year ago with Accuphase separates. One of the best sound I have ever heard, very balanced and precise sound from top to bottom, at that time my friend used valhalla 2 speaker cables with the Alexias. The reason I went with Sopras No 3 is because I like them how beautiful they sounded with Hegel and the nice discount I got from the Dealer. Thank You |
Hi Musicfx, this was a response from T+A support I would like to share, in certain way match your findings: "with both devices you have a very good performance. The sound quality of both devices is nearly the same! If you don’t need a streaming client unit for internet radio or/and playing audio files from a USB HDD or NAS server and if a very heavy and high quality CD-tray mechanism is important for you, then I want to recommend PDP3000HV. If the streaming client function is more important for you than a very heavy tray mechanism, then I want to recommend MP3100HV. Of course MP3100HV supports a high quality tray mechanism too, but a bit more light construction than PDP3000HV. I hope, these informations are helpful. If you have some more questions, don’t hesitate to contact me again." |
Congratulations! I connect it through Ethernet. For me this sounds much better. Tidal sounds better through the MP3100HV than using Amarra with my MacBook with an AQ Diamond USB. It also sounded better through the MP3100HV than the Aurender A10, even when using MQA with the Aurender. I sold the Aurender. CD’s sound really really good with the MP3100HV. Have all High Fidelity cables and an HFC MC-6 hemisphere and my system sounds the best ever. Enjoy the MP31000HV. |
@czubero, For the very BEST Tidal Steaming sound quality, you have to connect your MP3100HV to your router using a wired ETHERNET Connection. In addition, several people on Audiogon have reported signal problems when streaming Tidal. In my case, my Linksys router could NOT handle the streaming speed and was dropping packets (not good). In addition, I also discovered I had an out of range cable signal from my ISP and several other ISP related hardware issues that they immediately fixed. My point is your Internet connection might require some fine tuning in order to get a strong Tidal signal. My new Luxul router is working fine and Tidal has no signal related issues. Tidal Steaming offers excellent sound quality and a very good selection of albums. |
@czubero, As you noted, experiencing random signal drop outs with Tidal is an issue when listing to music. I also upgraded my ISP cable speed from 100Mbps to 250Mbps and have had no problems since with Tidal Streaming. I cannot prove this but I wonder if the Apple Airport Extreme Router (my old router) had issues handling the streaming speed used by Tidal. I also believe that the faster cable speed helped. And, of course, my Netflix movies load much faster now. Are most routers capable of handling the streaming speeds used by Tidal (is yours)? I do not know. Successful Tidal Streaming REQUIRES ALL your devices that connect to the Internet to be working perfectly. This include the router, switch boxes, modems and the ISP connection (junction boxes, cable signal range, amplifiers, etc). It seems, unfortunately, I have had issues with most everything down stream. If you are having issues using Tidal Streaming (Random signal dropouts), I suggest you review these many components to ensure they are working okay. And, yes, most likely, you will need to contact your ISP to ensure the cable speed is okay, the cable signal strength is within its required range, etc. My ISP, Wave Broadband, was very helpful ensuring the service was working for me. My Tidal Streaming problems were first identified when I called my ISP and reported the signal dropouts. In less than 5 minutes, he said my cable signal was out of the specified range and need to be adjusted by their Technician. Once he arrived, he identified many more external hardware problems that he repaired by replacing the junction box and signal amplifier. I suggest you call your ISP and request they check your cable signal range and other components as needed. I hope this helps. |
I will soon be using my MP3100HV with the new Antipodes CX. I decided on this for a change than getting an Aurender N10. Want to use Roon. T+A says an update will be available shortly to update the MP3100HV to be Roon Ready. Just updated Ethernet cables to the MP with Transparent high performance Ethernet cables and put the MP3100 on Rollerblocks 2+ on top of a Symposium Acoustics Svelte Plus platform. Really sounds good. |
