Jyprez, my so-called "business" argument (for a TT!) was pretty warped itself. Of course it wasn't quite fair to Teres. They'd replace a bad platter for free, maybe even with an acrylic one! <;^)
You wouldn't have to travel far to hear mine. You're in central CT and I'm in Middletown CT. I believe that gives us a prior claim on "centrality". :) Email me if like.
Dan_ed, as with Jyprez, email me if you're going to be passing through. My schedule is very fully booked but it could work out. |
Hi Doug,
I might take you up on that some day. I think you mentioned your in Conn. I pass that way once or twice a year from N.H on my way to see my son and his better half in N.J. Last time I went to see them I stopped on the way a picked up a BAT vk50SE. My wife never knows what I'll detour for!
As for the Teres, I have been wanting to hear one for sometime. One of their TTs is high on my list of future upgrades but I don't know if I could quite swing the 365. You, Tom and others sure seem happy with them. |
I can't say I'm quite ready to spend $6500 on a TT (notwithstanding your arguements) but I would love to hear a Teres, (even an acrylic base one) and compare it to my Michell Gyro. Where do you live? I am in Central CT, but I get around the country on business from time to time. |
Jyprez,
Will a wood platter last forever? Nobody knows, yet buying decisions have to be made. Let's review what we do know.
NO ONE who's heard a top level Teres has ever claimed they've heard a better table, short of a Walker. MANY who've heard a top level Teres say it whallops every table that sells for less than 2-3X the price. Compare the specs of even an entry-level Teres 135 ($1,500-ish) to anybody else's TT that sells for less than $3,000. The other table will hide its head in shame. SUMMARY: both on paper and in listening tests the entire Teres lineup offers extraordinary value. This is relevant to your concerns, please stay with me...
Assume one wants to buy $10,000 "worth" of TT. One could:
a) buy an acrylic VPI, SME or Clearaudio for that price or,
b) buy a wood-plattered Teres 265 for $3,700.
Musicality and aesthetics aside, it's clearly more prudent to buy the Teres and invest the difference. If the wood platter warps every five years(!) you buy another platter and remain financially well ahead.
Assume one wants to buy $25,000 "worth" of TT. One could:
a) buy an SME 30 or Walker for that price or,
b) buy a Teres 340 for $6,500.
Same approach as above.
BTW, I'd recommend investing one's procurement cost-savings in more LP's, but that's a personal financial decision!
Wow, I just made a business case for buying a $3,700 or $6,500 cocobolo turntable! :) Anyone with WAF issues please copy. Like Twl, I don't work for Teres, but I'd be proud if I did. Better products + lower costs = happy customers.
Yyprez and/or Dan_ed, you're both welcome to come over and listen any time. The LP's can be yours or mine, but the risk will be all yours! |
Yes I realize it works with green (or water logged) wood. You would treat the wood while green then let it dry. I believe it has been used by woodworkers successfully on a wide variety of wood densities. Many turned bowls and vases are made from the exotics you use by just this method. You have to use PEG of the appropriate molecular density - but you have no doubt researched this more than I.
As for MDF, there are newer, moisture resistant varieties that are pretty stable compared to wood when soaked - at least in my experience. I believe they use phenolic resins. But of course, they still will swell some since they are, after all, a wood fiber product |
No TWL does not work for Teres but I clearly appreciate his support. Thanks Tom!
About PEG. PEG only works with wet or green woods and it is not effective with the dense woods we use. Yes kiln dried wood still has some moisture, but not enough to work with PEG.
I can't believe that you are seious about soaking MDF and it didn't change dimensions. MDF has terrible dimensional stability. It swells like a sponge when it gets wet. The advantage of MDF is that is does not warp. I have done a number of projects using painted MDF and you can always see the joints after a short time. It's no worse than solid wood but it certainly is no better. I have tried MDF for a turntable base and it's not bad, but nothing like hardwood. |
One final response to Dan ed ....
I say wet wood because all wood is wet at some level. The cell structure of wood makes it like a sponge, even when kiln dried, the moisture content is only reduced, never eliminated and will still change to be in equilibrium with the surrounding air. |
To each his own. I have no interest in making an argument over this. I don't even have the blasted table. And it is likely that I never will, because I can't afford it anyway.
They made the table that way because they thought it sounded better and felt they could make it stable. Time will tell. |
Actually MDF will not change with temp and humidity. I once soaked a piece of MDF in water for days and could not measure the change with a micrometer. I can't speak for acrylic as I am not sufficiently familiar with the characteristics but perhaps a materials engineer out there can answer this.
You ask how many turntables have MDF bases. I would say a great many starting with the rega. How about speakers as well. Most all are made with MDF and a wood veneer. How many solid hardwood speakers do you know of?
As far as subtle changes in the wood. I am sure that teres has accounted for the most significant changes in their design. I certainly would not expect movement observable to the unaided eye or I would quickly ship my table back. But as you yourself have pointed out to all of us many times in this forum, turntables are exquisitly sensitive devices where tremendous differences in sound quality can be achieved with very subtle changes.
So let's see, should I play my records on a base with random and uneven density that is subject to even subtle expansion and contraction? For my part, I think not. But the ear is king so if it sounds better to you, then I say go for it! |
Jyprez
Wet wood? Are you familiar with the moisture content of the wood before it goes through the process that Teres uses? I know I'm not. I understand from reading the Teres web pages that there is some extensive cabinet making experience at their disposal. I doubt they are going into this blind, and I really doubt they would go to the expense and trouble of this process as just a marketing tool. Some exotic, space-age man-made material would fit that bill and without the headaches of possible future problems. As a part-time woodworker you should appreciate that the exotic woods that are being used here are not your average cherry, or oak, or maple, or mahogany, etc., that are used in furniture making. Teres has stipulated that movement is concern, but I agree with Teres that the movement in question here is much less than what we see with furniture.
Anyway, I would still love to hear the 365 or even the 235. But I fear that if I do I will never feel the same about my current TT. |
Nope. Never had anything to do with Teres. Only own their turntable. And love it.
I use the Teres Cocobolo base. It is not sealed, other than a surface finish. Last time I looked, it was still on my shelf. Hadn't crawled off anywhere. I live in an area with over 90% humidity for much of the year. Smoky Mountain area. I have no air conditioning. I use a wood stove for heat. My TT is right near the glass door and is subjected to near freezing temps in the winter(when the stove goes out during the night), and over 90 degree temps in summer. Finish is still on, and stability is fine. It is not made nearly as stiff as the platter on the 340. I don't know what extremes you feel any TT is going to be subjected to, but I'm certainly right up near the max in that department.
I also work with wood. I make musical instruments, specifically acoustic guitars. I am keenly aware of wood stability characteristics too. I believe that a nearly 4" thick platter of puzzle-fitted hardwoods with a density so high that it will nearly sink in water, and then soaked in an epoxy treatment that is made to withstand permanent immersion in water, will do just fine in the home environment.
Now that you've questioned my motives, maybe I should question yours?
And let's look at the stability issue and its real implications. Let's say that it might even go out a few thou periodically under extreme conditions. What are the potential problems?
1) Let's say it goes out of round by a couple thou. Well the TT has a continuously monitored platter speed that is constantly being read by an optical sensor and feeding a microcontroller that maintains speed to less than a tenth of a percent continuously. Controller takes care of that. And yes, it reads the platter, not the motor.
2) Let's say it goes out of shape like a potato chip by a couple thou. Well, most records are at least a couple thou out anyway. The system handles those quite easily. No problem.
3) Let's say that it squeezes tighter on the bearing shaft. No problem, the bearing shaft is part of the spindle, and is not immersed in the bearing well at the section where the
platter is attached to the spindle. Can't affect anything there.
This is worst case. Please don't tell me that you think it is going to go out by inches.
And how about the many turntables which have MDF platters and bases? They don't change with temp and humidity conditions? How about aluminum? Doesn't it change with temp? How about steel? How about brass? They don't change? Of course they do. Do they change evenly? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on if there were any stress risers in the material when it was made. That's why they cryo treat rifle barrels.
Yes, I think it is good that you make people aware of the characteristics of wood. As you say, buyer beware. |
TWL, Do you work for Teres or have some other vested interest here? Sorry but, your defensiveness to reasonable questioning of this issue leads me to question your motives.
I simply point out to others that they should carefully research the subject of wood stability on the internet and form their own opinion.
Notwithstanding your comments, average homes without humidity control are subject to very extreme variations in humidity, particularly here in the Northeast. Perhaps you live elsewhere. As a part time woodworker (I build 18th century reproductions), I am well acquainted with this problem, but as I said, don't take my word for it, just do your homework before investing. I'm sure Teres has done what they can to minimize this issue although I would still suggest they might think about treatment with PEG to replace all water content rather than just trying to seal wet wood. |
Jypres raises some good questions about wood stability. Questions that we have given a lot of thought. We have done a lot to minimize the risks but wood stability is a tricky thing. The bottom line is there will always be at least some risk no matter what we do.
We rely on a number of techniques for stabilization of the platters. Each technique by itself would probably be inadequate but combined we believe the risk to be very low.
Our primary vapor barrier is formed when the core of the platter is assembled. Many small pieces of wood are saturated in epoxy and then joined under light pressure, leaving an effective vapor barrier between each piece. This is a much more effective barrier than can be obtained with a relatively thin finish. Once the core of the platter has been formed it is completely encased with a layer of cocbolo. The veneer is attached with epoxy to form an additional vapor barrier. We top this off with an epoxy coating. The exterior epoxy coating is fairly effective, but by itself would be inadequate.
Even with the above techniques, some limited moisture exchange is inevitable. Using many small pieces of wood with strong epoxy bonds minimizes movement. The dimensional changes in small piece of wood are small enough that the force can usually be contained by a strong bond. It's what we see with plywood. The bond between thin layers is sufficient to stabilize wood even with significant moisture exchange.
In addition to using a lot of small pieces of wood we construct the platter to expand and contract gracefully. The grain of the core of the platter is oriented such that the inevitable microscopic dimensional changes will be uniform around the platters circumference. This way even if there is some change the platter will retain it's concentricity.
Last of all well selected Jatoba for construction of the platter core because it has a very low moisture/dimension coefficient.
Chris |
Should we start a rumor that Teres is getting into the yacht business?
Seriously, Doug I would love to hear one sometime. Any Teres, that is. |
Please, with all due respect, this is not a boat. In normal temperature and humidity environments that would be encountered in a high end audio home, this is not a problem.
Look, electronic circuits don't last long in salt water immersion tests either. I think we have to be at least semi-realistic about what we are discussing here.
Great care went into the design and manufacture of this turntable. Long term stability was one of the concerns, and it was dealt with in the best way possible. Given a normal environment, this will be quite stable.
I certainly wouldn't recommend this turntable for outdoor patio use in the tropical rain forests of Brazil. For temperature and humidity controlled indoor living room use, this will do just fine. |
I'm sing-in' in the rain,
Just sing-in' in the rain... |
There is lots of information on the internet on the dimensional stability of wood. Here is one quote from http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/waac/wn/wn06/wn06-2/wn06-201.html
"There is no known coating which adheres to wood and is also completely impervious to water vapor. Even the most effective coating will permit the eventual equilibration of a coated wood object to the relative humidity and temperature conditions of its surroundings."
So don't take my word for it. Buyer beware! I don't doubt that wood will sound good at least initially. But you won't have a stable platform and that is trouble. Boats, on the other hand, are made to swell with the absorbtion of water. This is taken into account in their design. The swelling of the joints is what makes them tight. I used to have a wooded lapstrake boat (this is where the hull is made up of overlapping boards rather than one sheet of material) It would leak like heck when first put in the water at the beginning of the season but then tighten right up after a few days. |
Dan_ed,
It's hard to believe it until you hear it. Heck, it's hard to believe it after you hear it, I'm still in rapturous shock nearly every time I spin a record. If my 265 turns into a 60 lb. potato chip in ten years, they'll be the best musical ten years I've ever known. Hey, I'm slowly turning into a 60 lb. potato chip myself, might as well enjoy some tunes along the way. :)
Jyprez,
I'm in Connecticut so I know what you mean about the weather. AC in the summer, humidifier in the winter, de-himidifier in the basement all the year round. The land of steady habits is also the land of a most unsteady climate. |
Jyprez,
I live in New Hampshire, so I completely agree with your assessment of the changes in relative humidity and the effects that has on wood and furniture. However, I would say that the wooden bowl makers that you mention have a restriction of what treatments they can use in that these treatments must be non-toxic. There is no such restriction on boat building, which is where this process comes from. I don't have near the experience in woodworking as 4yanks, but it seems to me that if the process completely soaks the wood in epoxy then the platter may not be subjected to changes in relative humidity at all as would the plinth. Another thing to consider is that not all species of wood change exactly the same way due to humidity. Having said all this, I too am curious to see how these platters hold up.
The possible improvement of sound due to a hardwood base seems plausible to me since many instruments are made from highly selected wood samples and are themselves very susceptible to tuning changes due to weather conditions. But I admit I have never heard a solid hardwood plinth. |
Jyprez, after using many TTs with MDF or acrylic bases, I might agree that they may be stable, but they don't sound anywhere near as good. This was really shown to me in a big way, when I upgraded my Teres from the acrylic base to the lead-shot loaded Cocobolo base. Everything else in the TT remained the same: same bearing, platter, feet, arm, motor. All I did was replace the base on my existing Teres 135 with the base of the 245 model. Even the thickness and shape was the same as the previous acrylic base. The difference was too much to believe. Simply the material choices created such a staggering improvement, that I understood forever how much these materials play a role in the sound. I'll never go back to an acrylic TT. |
I would agree with several others above who have expressed their scepticism about the stability of a wood base over time. Wood is notoriously uneven in density and swells and shrinks tremendously with changes in humidity. In the Northeast, the average home is drier than the Sahara in the winter. Even if treated with chemicals, I don't think you can make wood perfectly stable. Woodworkers who make carved bowls often soak the wood in a chemical called PEG which replaces the water in the cell structure and limits the wood movement but even that can't eliminate it 100%. So why build a base from solid hardwood? It's just marketing hype IMHO. Acrylic or MDF with a pretty wood veneer would be better. |
Doug, I really should have said multi-directional laminating.
Again, I am not questioning the performance of the Teres tables, as I have heard them and they sound great. I do, however, have some concerns for 5-10 years down the road with respect to the platter. Sincerest wishes to all users that my concerns are unfounded. |
In addition to the 4-way (or maybe 6-way?) grain variation, Teres saturates each piece of wood in an epoxy bath before assembling them. The W.E.S.T. process Tom referred to. I'd love to watch them make these too. |
LOL, twice, Fatparrot. One could, of course, spend that same amount on something that looks like it came out of a Star Wars plastic factory. Could you aim that gun a little higher please? |
Ozfly, yes it is beautiful. But the manufacturer states that the platter is "...made from exotic hardwoods and generously loaded with lead shot." I think that most wives, after seeing the price tag of over 6 grand, would "generously load their spouse with lead shot!" Besides, that money would be much wiser spent on a diamond tennis bracelet!!! |
Tom, yes I am of the mind, having done extensive work in nearly all types of furniture, cabinet, and instrument construction that "puzzling" (what I call 4-way lamination, or spiral lamination) is crucial along with the ability to select properly dried wood and a process for controlling "heave-ho" due to vagaries in temp and humidity.
Even in furniture that is carefully constructed to the finest tolerances will vary over time. Granted changes of 1/64 to 1/32 inch in thickness or diameter or changes in DENSITY may not come into issue in furniture or even cabinetry, a platter is a different matter.
Now, I am not by any means claiming, or even inferring, that Teres has not accounted for all of these issues, just that it concerns me. I would REALLY like to visit their shop. |
David, the platter is constructed using the W.E.S.T system of epoxy resin soaking the wood, like is used in modern wood boat construction. The platter is pieced together like a puzzle, with the grains of the pieces oriented for maximum strength and minimum movement. Then it is machined after it is cured.
The stability of the platter was a big concern for Chris when he started this project. He feels it will be fine. It is a very labor intensive process, and this contributes to the higher cost of this table.
It is reported to sound awesome. I haven't heard this model. |
I don't mean to be a skeptic in any way, and I know the Teres models sound great because I've heard 'em. I plan to more closely scrutinize one that a friend now has. I have a very strong background in woodworking and the charateristics of wood. I plan to look carefully at the platter construction (don't think the plinth is as important). I have some concerns as to how the platter will hold up over, say, 10 years. Will give my opinion after I've had a chance for a thorough look see, for what that is worth.
Anyone know of other wood platters that have been around for 5 or 10 years? |
Gorgeous! Visually, much more spouse friendly than most competitors. Gotta trust Twl in analog so if he recommends the sound, need more be said? |
Looks great... might sound a little woody though. Don't invite any tree huggers over! |
Yes, lovely, isn't it?
Unfortunately, they are sold out on the model from pre-production orders, and they may be available again in January. However, I'm sure they will take advance orders on the model, for the next production run.
That 340 will likely give any TT made a tight run for the money. Probably beat most quite easily. And a steal at the price. |
