Carver Raven 350 Amps

I am just using the cords that came with the amplifiers.  No issues, so no reason to change.

ozzy,
Been doing some reading on the DEQX products I and am fairly certain I am going to pick one up.  It will be nice to be able to room correct my own setup and it will do a much better job with subwoofer crossover and also allow the subwoofers to be integrated into stereo listening if I choose (which I can't do now.) 

smokenjo,

I am using the Cerious Matrix power cords 3 meters long each!

ozzy

what  AC cables are you guys using with your carver mono"s

So I am going to keep the Carvers since they allow me to try other "hard to drive" speakers. Quads, Electrostatics, and Planers are on my list to try.

I must say though my Atma-Sphere M-60 3.3’s are very nice sounding amps that I hope I do not regret selling.

I have an ad on the "Gon’" for their sale right now with over 800 views in 4 days!

ozzy

erichgs,

Some equipment does not work well with the inputs shorted.
I am using the DEQX as an electronic crossover and to blend the subs with my main speakers in the room. And it is quite a complicated piece of equipment that can make a big difference.

ozzy

If you have multiple inputs, depending on how they are wired shorting plugs can be a bad idea.

Ozzy,

I had never looked at the DEQX equipment.  Does it really make that big of a diffrence?  Which DAC implementation do they use?

There are shorting plugs that accomplish both.

Actually the caps do help to keep stray RF/EMI out of the signal path.

ozzy

The shorting plug shorts the signal to the ground where the cap just covers and protects from the elements.

what is the diff.  between a RCA cap and  RCA shorting plug

erichgs,

I have moved my jumper and output settings on my DEQX premate to its highest output settings and still no hum. 
I can't tell you how satisfying it is to have discovered the source of the hiss. It was amazing that I missed something so obvious for a week.

smokenjo,

They can be purchased from  many places. I bought mine off of EBay from a guy located in Michigan, they are of  very high quality and with fast delivery. Now remember these are caps not shorting plugs. I have used them on all of my unused rca and xlr input/output throughout my system.

ozzy 

OZZY, where did you buy those rca caps

The Benchmark DAC3 has jumpers to attenuate the XLR output.  I moved the jumpers from the default position (0db) to the middle setting (-10db) and now I am noise free as well.

erichgs,

Yes dead quite. If there is any noise I can't hear it. 
BTW, I also placed rca non shorting caps on the rca inputs. Perhaps that's what took it to zero noise.
Everything matters...

Now to experiment with input tubes...

ozzy

@ozzy 

Good to hear you got it sorted out.  Bob was saying he provides the XLR input for people who only have XLR outs.  Similarly, the 4 and 8 ohm outs are also tied together but when he provided a single for those two he got a lot of questions.  The 2 ohm is separate as it internal requirements differ. 

Like I said, oddly enough connecting via XML makes mine quieter.  Probably, the RCA out on the DAC is generating the little bit of noise.

So yours are dead quiet now?  Even if you put your ear up to the tweeter with nothing playing?

@smokenjo 

I really like those, very nice.  I went with quilted sapele on mine, can't wait to get them.  Also, I have an SS7 center coming in the same finish.  At 23% complete right now so likely still be a few months out.

I went searching for you on audiocircle last night and found your post (assuming it is you) in the thread with the guy who is using the 305s with his SS10s and came from an AVA 600R.  Looks like multiple people are enjoying the pairing of these amplifiers with SoundScapes.  This is good to know.

erichgs, and others.

Well I finally found the reason for the hiss.

I was using the XLR output of the DEQX preamp with a XLR cable into the Carver XLR input.

Since the Carver does not have a true balanced input (but my DEQX preamp does have a true balanced output) you have to use the rca (single ended) output from the preamp into the Carver inputs.

Confusing but it makes sense. Single ended output to single ended input. Simple as that.

That being said the Carver amp really should not have a xlr input connection without it being a true balanced connection. What would be the use?

Anyway, I now have a DEAD silent connection, no hiss or hum etc.

ozzy

So switched to the XLR inputs on mine and it actually reduced my hum (which manifests as a hiss from the tweeter.)  Now have to be inside of an inch to hear it in a fairly quiet room.

Again, I am just going from the benchmark dac3 directly to the amp and can't find anything on whether the XLR outputs on the DAC3 are actually balanced.

Erich

erichgs,

No need to. Bob says the RCA and XLR are wired together as a single ended input. The XLR is there for convenience not for a true balanced connection. So either rca or xlr should perform the same.

ozzy

@ozzy 

Have you tried the RCA inputs?  Maybe it is possible that your balance out to single ended in is causing a ground loop or some kind of feedback issue (not sure what Carver is doing with the unused pin.)  I can try the XLR inputs on mine and see what happens.  It is single ended and I have RCA everywhere else, so I didn't see the point in using it.

Erich

erichgs,

If I connect the output from my Direct Stream Dac directly to the Carver amps there is very little hiss.
But if I connect the Direct Stream output to the input of the BSG QOL or to my DEQX Premate preamp and then to the Carver amps I get the hiss. Either piece of equipment will cause the hiss. 

Bob Carver suggests reducing significantly (50% from full level) the Carver volume control and just turn up the level on the DEQX Preamp. To do this I would be playing the DEQX Preamp at its 85-95% top settings. I'm not sure I like that.

When my Atma-Sphere Amps are used instead of the Carvers there is complete silence.

I don't know what more to do. 

All of my equipment has true balanced connections and quality balanced interconnects are used. The Carver even though it has a XLR input it is still just a single ended connection. I think if the Carver amps had a true balanced input there would be no problem.

ozzy

@smokenjo 

Every speaker I listened to while visiting Bob Carver, the Carver 350 blew away the 600R for soundstage.  On one of the speakers I thought the 600R had a better sound in the highs, but over all I preferred the sound from the Carver amp on every speaker I listened on (even the one I thought the 600R had better highs on.)

What finish do you have on your SoundScapes?

erichgs,  can you guess what speakers i have  SALK SOUNDSCAPE  8, with upgrade on the xovers, mundoff , the amp I have now is AVA 600R FET

I have been using them at full.  Since the knob is impacting both volume and gain, I am not sure how much it impacts the ability to use the full capability of the amplifier.  You will, obviously, have to turn your source up further to get the same output.

You haven't been able to determine which of your sources (or if the preamp itself) is causing the noise?

Erichgs, Dracule 1,

Are you using the volume setting on the Carver at full level?
I can reduce the hiss if I reduce the Carver volume knob to the 12:00-1:00 position, but, by doing that am I reducing the Carver 350 watts per channel capability?

ozzy

@smokenjo

The hum on my Carvers is what I would consider acceptable and not caused by the amplifiers themselves.

As for how they sound, they are a little bright on the speakers I have now. I am currently using the Salk HT-MTM’s I purchased 6 years ago. Though very clean and decent with music they are intended for home theater use. I have Salk SoundScape 8’s being built right now. I have heard the SoundScape 8’s with Carver 305’s and really liked the sound. According to Bob, the 350’s are very similar sonically to the 305’s.

Additionally, I listened to the amplifiers that are in my house for several hours and on several different speakers when I was up visiting Bob and never experienced the brightness. This was computer->DAC->amps->Speakers (in the case of the ALS speakers there is an adjustable crossover as well.)

At any rate I will reserve review on how they sound until I receive my SoundScape 8’s outside of saying I sat and listened to music for 4 hours last night and enjoyed every minute of it.

Even on my current speakers the soundstage is, to me, amazing. Of course, my experience with other amplifiers in my house is fairly limited but the AVA 600r the carvers replaced does not come close in soundstage. I verified this with A/B testing both at Bob’s place and in my home.

I do not plan on running a seperate pre-amp.  Unless I really hear something I don't like, I plan to go directly from my Benchmark DAC3 to the Carver's.  I am of the thought that I got what I wanted for speakers and amplifiers I should avoid anything else impacting the sound.

I hope this answered your questions. I am still learning a lot on a daily basis.

On my Carvers I get a small amount of hum even with the input disconnected.  It goes away when I short the inputs and even when there I have to be within ~3 inches of the speaker to hear it.  This is with the amplifier volume knob at full and is the same on both amplifiers.  I also get some power supply hum from the amplifiers themselves but have to be very close to hear that as well.

10db of gain is a fairly large difference and I would think could easily account for hearing the noise coming from the input on the Carvers while not on your other amps.  LIke I mentioned before, if you pull the inputs and no longer hear the noise it is almost certainly not the amp from everything I have read.

erichgs,

Thanks for your reply. I would not describe the hiss as hum, but it is quite noticeable sitting even 15 feet away from the speakers with no music playing.
The Atma-Sphere are pretty much quiet compared to the Carvers.

I just tried reducing the Carver volume knob and it does reduce the hiss but it probably also reduces the overall volume too, hopefully not too much.

ozzy

@ozzy 

I sent an email to Jordan asking about the volume control and he replied that it is on the input stage.  I believe this would mean it impacts both gain and volume.

Erich

@ozzy 

Are the Atma-Sphere amps entirely quite (put your ear right up next to the tweeter on the driven speaker and see if you can hear any hiss)?   The gain on the Carver 350 is 30db while the gain on the M-60 is 20db.  Do you hear the hiss if you set the carver volume knob to 2/3 (not sure if this knob is volume (output stage) or gain (input stage))?

 I am no expert but did just spend two weeks researching and troubleshooting a hiss/buzz issue in the amp the Carvers are replacing and from everything I read if you remove the inputs (in many cases the recommendation was to short the inputs) and noise goes away it is almost certainly not an issue with the amplifiers.  The trick then is to find the offending electronics.  I didn't know this up front and ended up spending hours of trying different things before finally just isolating the amplifier entirely on a single outlet circuit with all the other breakers in the house turned off and the inputs on the amp shorted only to get the same buzz.

Since you have already determined unplugging the pre-amp stops the hum, maybe start by eliminating the pre-amp and driving the carvers from your sources one at a time and see if one has a buzz while the others don't.

Erich

Question:

I have noticed considerable hiss coming from my speakers with the Carver amps. When I turn off my preamp the hiss goes away.
So, I’m thinking that the hiss is not coming from the amps but from the preamp or other upstream components.

My DEQX preamp has adjustable input/output settings that have not reduced the hiss. There are also internal jumpers to increase/decrease the preamp output but at this time I have not changed them.

I do not hear this hiss when I use my Atma-Sphere amps.

erichgs, dracue 1, or others, any suggestions?

ozzy

jond,

There are many including the Sanders, Magnapan, and the Martin Logan. All are difficult loads to drive.

ozzy

ozzy that's cool so what planars or electrostatics are on your radar? With that much tube wattage you could pretty much drive anything.

jond,

I'm a rebel... 
No, I like the sound of Planar and Electrostatic speakers but I know my current amps wouldn't work with them. It will be hard to part with my Atma-Sphere amps though because they sound so good.

ozzy 

@ozzy I just saw your Atma's up for sale and messaged you on your System. Please disregard as I just saw this thread and got my answer. Congrats on your new amps and just curious, you just spent all the time building your speakers why the decision to change?

Yes, brought them home with me yesterday. Have you received yours?

erichgs,

Did you bring the Carver amps home? 

ozzy

I went up to see Bob Carver yesterday and listen to the 350’s. After extended listening (the 350’s attached to his ALS speakers) I ended up purchasing a set of the Crimson 350 amplifiers. Bob and Jordan were both very gracious with their time and open and honest with the questions I asked. The listening included A/B testing with the amplifier I am replacing. 

Jordan is very knowledgeable about the products and actively involved with Bob in the development of new products, he has obviously spent a large amount of time with Bob learning what he has done and how he has done it.  Jordan was able to answer 90% of the questions I asked as well as help me understand the things I was hearing.

Bob offered to sign the amplifiers and I elected to have him personalize the signature.  I understand the personalization negatively impacts the value of the amplifiers, but it makes them more valuable to me.

This is the first tube amplifier I have owned and look forward to learning and experimenting with it. I hope I have the opportunity to go and talk to Bob and Jordan again after I have a few months under my belt with the amplifiers.

Well it looks like I should get the Carver Raven 350's today.

ozzy

Ozzy, which tap you use depends on the impedance of your speakers.  Unless you have really low impedance speakers like 1-2 ohm Apogees, the 8 ohm tap usually sounds better than 4 ohm tap. Bob's tube amps do have a 1 ohm tap.  But there is no hard rule regarding this, so you can experiment.  

arcticdeth,

I hear ya, cost is always the factor. The units were shipped and then were requested to be returned back to the sender. So, I hope this gets straightened out.

ozzy

would love a pair of these. damn money is always the trouble.
too expensive, by the time im ready for these, company will be no more.
im happy with my sunfire.

let us know how they sound, etc etc, we expect a full report, review on your thoughts the sound with different music, switches, bias, etc etc.

Thanks, interesting. What about the different ohm taps in the back? Should I experiment with these also?

ozzy

Great! First thing you'll need to do after turning on your amp is check the adjustable bias.  Start with withwhat Bob recommends. From there, Increasing bias will make thing sound warmer and more upfront, while decreasing bias will sound leaner with better sound stage and imaging.

Just talked to Bob and he says my Raven 350 amps should be shipping this week.

ozzy

Then I suggest you check out the 2-way stand mounts from Proac and Totem.

Thanks, I’ll check them out.

My present DIY speakers consist of one Aurum Cantus G-1 Ribbon tweeter and one 7" ScanSpeak woofer. I used Mundorf SGO caps, Janzen Inductors and Path Audio resistors. They are crossing over to 2 JL Audio Subs at 80hz.

So, I would like speakers to have enough surface area to reflect a large soundstage but not necessarily deep bass. That’s why I thought of the Magnapan. And... I also want them to look cool or unique.

ozzy

Also Proac speakers are very dynamic speakers.  If you can find a dealer, I'd lug your amplifier over and test the speakers with your amp.  Or the dealer may actually let to audition them at home.