My Linn speakers look very nice (like many other brands) but no doubt use cheap caps.
Steen Duelund (I am impressed with dedication to the hobby a throwback to the past)
"That is really what you get even from the expensive part of the market. No real innovations, none new ways, as if normal methods are the best - but designs and finish are very impressive. Sadly this is for the eyes not for the ears".
"It seems difficult to build loudspeakers, which are more than 2-way, if you search the market. What has been gained, by these simple 2-ways constructions concerning recreation of a convincingly holographic picture of sound is lost, when more ways are chosen. Just consider how much energy has been put into the two way systems, to make them full range. None of them reaches the goal".
"In theory more ways should lead to better results, but practise has shown it otherwise. Normal filters and components are insufficient".
JohnK will like this quote. (Steen seems to be a horn guy)
"With a well-constructed horn and a single loudspeaker, much can be achieved concerning experience, but full range and relaxing to listen to, it will never be. But they can be very spellbinding".
I commonly hear that freq cutoffs should be abrubt from one driver to the other and Steen feels exact opposite.
"In the literature youll find "the perfect filter" described as having linear response until a sudden abrupt cut-off. That is probably correct concerning telecommunication but it cant be more wrong with loudspeakers. There the cut-off must happen in a very gentle manner, so let us see, how this can be achieved".
Steen on caps (I feel somewhat vindicated now saying that the older caps were better. The Klipsch vintage caps when newer would kick the crap out of the cheaper plastic caps. The vintage caps simply no plastic and wayyyyy bigger. That being said the Duelund with no plastic is better than the vintage ever were. Anyone ever try the old Mica caps?)
I also feel somewhat vindicated about comments about the Sonicaps being just too small to do the job.
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)
Interesting on sound our brain uses 4 senses? Wow did not know that?
"The brain in reality uses four of its senses by an acoustical event: hearing, sight, somatic tough for lower frequencies and even the sense of smell simultaneously.
Reproduction of only sound in a room creates problems for the brains treatment of sound missing two stimuli, as Ill rule out the smell".
Steen on loudspeaker cost relative to system.
"The price of the loudspeaker should mirror the price of the rest of your gear as almost equal. The reason is simple the more quality gained from the electronic parts the more handwork must be invested in the mechanic/acoustical unit. A good loudspeaker has no easy way despite the manufacturers advertising of "The simpler- the better". It only for them is better and of course easier and cheaper".
That one is interesting for me as my Klipsch with cheap CD player (vintage Fisher tube amp) outperforms the expensive Linn gear with the cheaper (slightly) Linn speakers. Linn has always said source is the most important and Steen takes issue with that, saying 50% of the system cost should be in the speakers and I tend (even as a Linn fan) agree with Steen. |
Still I feel using such costly parts on the poor old klipsch tweeters is a bit of a waist of funds. Replace it, use a good cap and be done. Trust me the tweeters are a very weak link and with what your spending on crossovers parts you could afford proper replacement tweeters. I disagree with money on caps is better than money spent elsewhere for if your loudspeakers where modern and of proper design changing the caps wouldnt make much diferance. Now your replacing parts that probly where out of spec since you dont have a mint stock klipsch to compare to your voicing these speaker to your own tastes room system keep this in mind. I wonder have you tested the old caps to see if they are realy out of spec? Also with loudspeakers transducer quality realy maters as does crossover, cabinet, finish, dampening etc. Its a total design if done right. I disagree with this statement [I think money on caps may be better money[spent] than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of] I would say treat your system like what it is a system not a colection of gear. Focusing on 1 aspect of a systems performance mostly leads to grief in the long term. |
Volleyguy
"I would like to hear some opinions on this but I think money on caps may be better money than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of???"
Without a shadow of a doubt. |
After buying the Sonicaps a light went off in my head that it is the caps that made the Klipsch special, I always thought it was the horns.
Steen Duelund
"A passive network needs spacing, so use bottom and backside of the loudspeaker box for it the bigger the better. Also do not expect this important part to be cheap. I personally use more money on the dividing network than on the rest of the loudspeaker". |
Trying to put a number value on the cap difference.
I have never been a digital fan. All the tests so far are done on CD because I do not want to log hours on my cartridge. The two CD players I am using is a NAD (20 year old one) and a Linn Karik. (which I never thought was that great compared to vinyl)
Doing just the tweeter caps Duelund/Supreme about $400 both speakers. ($30 for Sonicaps) If it came down to a choice (of money on CD player or caps) the cap difference from Sonicap to Duelund/Supreme is at least 5x the difference from the two CD players. That is just doing the tweeter caps. I can not imagine what it will be when all is done!
It is just HUGE! In fact when the Duelund/Supreme was in it is the 1st time I have ever enjoyed digital. I only have the player for my wife and back ground music.
Money on caps (great caps) also is better money spent in the fact that all sources will be better.
I would like to hear some opinions on this but I think money on caps may be better money than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of??? |
Stormen
Thanks
You have given me something to think about. (inductors) I am ordering the midrange caps Monday and will see how that goes.
That is quite a read on Steen Duelund. Going to take awhile to digest this. |
Thanks Undertow
I was starting to wonder if I had been to harsh on the Sonicaps. They at 40+ hours now.
I still find them very flat. They are not offensive just not that great compared to the others.
I notice their faults even more now after hearing the Duelund/Supreme. At 40 hours they seem even farther behind.
I can say some might find them better than the vintage (worn out) caps if they prefer their "more correct" sound and do not mind their lack of dynamics.
I still find them below the old vintage caps (to me) and for sure the vintage caps were better before worn out.
When I did this with the caps I got what Tony Gee called the start of high end caps at a bargain price. The Sonicaps may be that, I'll take his word but they are NOT in the league of the better caps. (Duelund and the 2 Mundorf's)
From what I understand one can do much worse though some of the expensive caps seem to be rated no better.
I have not tried Cardas or will I at this point. |
First off I will shed a little light.. I have experience with just about every cap, minus the Duelands.. I can say easily Sonicap standard Gen II's are not the end all be all or near it, they do cost very little money though, I mean a 1 uF cap is what 7 bucks? They are decent, but much better in some electronics than speakers from my experience, however even in components will be handed a beating from some of the better caps.. They are very linear, but slightly dry, and are no question flat... But they also seem to exhibit a slight over raw enhancement, much like Dynamicaps, which are even worse in some critical applications if you don't want a lot of added peaks and valleys in your overall sonic soundscape don't use sonicaps or dynamicaps...
This is just my opinion in the limited applications I have tried... The mundorfs are Great, but still slightly overpriced, a more neutral and capable cap to an extent in my opinion is the Cardas golden reference, and the Sonicap platinum, but both in very small values and are pretty pricey... They take about 400 hours to open up, I ran them in a hi power TUbe application for about 2 weeks straight with cheap 2 dollar tubes to burn them in, and WHAT a difference.. Speakers will NEVER burn in a tube like power electronics until probably even 1000 or 2000 hours so get ready :-) |
I put the Sonicaps back in to complete the breakin on them as I have disapointed some people with the test.
I did some measurements for some
Sonicap radius 8mm x31mm long
Supreme radius 13mm x50mm long
SIO radius 20mm x53mm long
So volume of caps are pie x radius2
Sonicaps volume 6230 cubic milimeters
Supreme volume 26533 cubic milimeters
SIO volume 66568 cubic milimeters
My problem has been not the poor sound of the Sonicaps or lack of detail but lack of dynamics.
Upon having them back in I first thought I might have been too critical. They are a BIG step down from my fav's Duelund/Supreme. I may have to move them up from last though.
I would say they are realitively smooth but flat in dynamics. The Supreme's are smoother but more importantly more dynamic. If it was my Linn speakers I may consider them but would likely go with Supreme's. |
Volleyguy
In my mind no chain is stronger than the weakest link. I believe the qualitive leap you get from using a good inductor with your lower range driver is equally important to a capacitor. And why shouldn't it be, an inductor is no more than a reversed capacitor, with a rising impedance versus rising frequencies... |
Stormen
There is no resistors in the "AA" Klipsch network.
There is one large inductor and one small one. Can you describe the changes in inductors. Many people talk about caps but not so much talk on inductors. Is that because old ones do not wear out like caps? With changing caps you can go better and they wear improvement compounds to a huge difference. With inductors (I understand) it would be just the qualitive improvement? |
Hi Raul
I think the results are similiar as Tempoelectric.
Both did not think the expensive v-cap that great. Tempo put the v-cap in Tier "E".
Tempo also put the Sonicaps in Tier "D" above the much more expensive oimp v-cap.
Tempo also said it was close to whether the Mundorf SIO was going down to Tier "C" so that would put it only one Tier above Sonicap. (at much greater cost than Sonicap)
So if you compare Sonicap to some of the Solens that Tempo wondered how a cap could sound that bad it is very good for the $.
I am going to put pics on of all the caps (if I can) so people who have not seen the size difference can understand what I am talking about. I have offended some with not waiting till 200 hours. (some are close to 50 now)
It is the dynamics I am talking about not smoothness. In all honesty not one cap is more dynamic after any hours so far. Yes smoother more open but not more dynamic. (not that I can tell) |
Volleyguy,
I believe so yes.
Why not try their resistors instead if you are wary of the cost of the inductor, do you have a resistor in series with the tweeter? I've seen people describe the resistor as the best bang for the buck upgrade you can get which mimics my thoughts. |
Dear Volleyguy: AS I already posted speak about caps quality performance is not an easy task, here is another caps comparison:
http://www.10audio.com/sonicap_oimp_multicap.htm
which one is the right one?.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Stormen is it the same level of improvement as with the caps and the same kind of improvement? I find the caps to be so much more "real" sounding then other caps.
Piling on the hours now. (leaving on when away)
The best choice is now tough and will take hours to figure out. It is either Duelund/Duelund or Duelund/Supreme.
It may come down to Duelund/Duelund being slightly better but not worth the extra $. For sure going to one Duelund was a revalation going to two in the tweeters is not the jump of the first. |
Volleyguy,
If you find the Duelund caps worthwhile, I'm sure you'll be just as enarmoured with the inductors.
I've tried a lot of other brands and never want to go back.
In the end of course, it's your money. |
Rauliruegas
I once thought I wanted to hear what was the exact recording. I owned a Lp12 for almost 10 years. It was the first source I loved. (then the sound started to go bad)
So I started changing everything. (I found out later/now it was the caps in the Klipsch)
In the process of the change I bought another turntable. (which I will not mention to avoid conflict) I heard so much good on the net about it. To me it killed the music. I loved the Lp12 for years within 3 weeks I did not even listen too (other turntable) I actually disconnected it and put it up for sale. I started listening to CD's. I ended up with another Lp12.
Whatever I buy "has" to make me want to listen more. With the Sonicaps I lost interest in the Klipsch started listing to my Linn speakers. I could hear that the Sonicaps were "more correct" than the vintage caps but lacked the "live" feel. It was the dynamics they lacked not a smooth sound.
For almost 30 years I have owned the Klipsch. Like JohnK says it is only recently that horns have come back. At my Linn dealer they used to chuckle when I told them I had Klipsch. (vintage horns) Yet everytime I heard one of there high powered amp systems I never felt the music the same way.
So I have been through the Klipsch was great era to Klipschorns were a joke era and now back to new and old horns are thought good again. Even my Linn dealer who used to kind of laugh at me about them now somehow thinks horns are Ok almost a respect!
I do think horns are more sensitive to source or crossover caps because of the eff. also I may spend a pile on caps but I do not need some high powered amp or two or three. |
Dgarretson
The original post did say it was a log from start to finish for others to read in the future. So they could know or have an idea of what to expect. The hours are piling on the caps and yes they do become smoother but have not had one cap move up or down in my fav's list. I have not had one cap become more dynamic yet either, smoother yes.
If I did not do one thing more than replace the tweeter caps I know like the Klipsch much more than my other speakers. (Linn) So for a cost of $400 the Klipsch now sound very good. I would have to compare to at least 10k speakers if not more in the speakers I have heard. (except maybe JohnK horns as I have not heard them)
I do think Steen Duelund fit the old mold. (of being a tinker)
Arthur Salvatore on his web site said he would like to hear a all out set of Khorns. (he STILL has the Khorns as one of the best speakers ever) |
Dear Volleyguy: Good. I could not agree totally with you but I respect you in every subject you posted.
Like I told you: at the " end of the day " the important subject is that you be happy because is you who has to live with that audio system, it does not matters what I think about.
There are many " doors " that we can open to discuss on your thread but I think that could be for some other time.
Go on and achieve what you are looking for, good luck!!!.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
As previously stated, I think you're missing the boat in not defering judgment until much further into the break-in process. However it's delightful to hear that the experience has salvaged speakers that you were considering selling after three decades of ownership. Very few on this forum realize that a few hundred spent on mods may avoid tens of thousands in equipment churn. When those Klipsches were manufactured, the hobby was full of tinkerers. No more.
To Raul's point about neutrality: I started with internal mods to my CDP source, and continued modding progressively downstream as best I could with each component. I was first convinced that the source was the most important component, then later the preamp, then later the amp, and so on. Of course they all are! Do the best with each one, and with such high-quality piece parts you will probably find when finished that your system has achieved transparency & neutrality.
PS: I'm still trying to recover an original pair of Altec VOTT that I foolishly sold to my brother in 1977 for $150. |
Stormen
Thanks for the link.
I will be reading up on this. I am very interested now. I will let you know on the 14 days. They sounded excellent right out of the box with the Supreme's. But two Duelund's even more dynamic but could use a little settle down which may happen.
Did you compare their inductors to others? Are they worth the extra cost? Duelund is NOT cheap! |
Rauliruegas
Yes I agree that we each have our own priorities with sound as there would only be one cap, one source, one amp, one speaker and all would agree that they were the best.
Yes I am looking for a cap that is fun. (to me of course)
The vintage caps are very coloured (worn out now) and yes I rank them better than the non defective but boring sounding Sonicaps. That has to do with my perception of their lack of dynamics.
I do know the vintage caps are "colored" but do not hear that with the Duelund's. I would say more like Tony Gee's "super natural" makes instruments sound like the real thing. If that is colored I want a violin to sound like a violin.
What I do not like about the Sonicaps is lack of energy not SPF. I do not dislike Sonicaps they are cheap and are not offensive but not in the league of the better caps (IMHO) in what I am looking for and that is that "live" feel that horns can do.
"A child with new toy".
I did say that I had these speakers for almost 30 years and loved them. I know the caps are going bad and after putting in the Sonicaps I was so disapointed I put them up for sale. When the guy came to buy them he had the old tube amp. I knew there was still problems but enjoyed listening to them again on the tube amp with vintage caps.
Then I got the new caps and it is beyond my wildest expectations. I almost do not listen to my main system. So yes I am like a kid who has his favourite "old" toy back and better than ever!
The two different caps.
I did say I was very early with the second Duelund. What those people did say is even the best caps will leave their sonic signature. You will hear the "cap" as opposed to the music. That does make sense to me. I found the Deulund/Supreme to not leave any signature on the music.
I am still eval'ing two Duelund's. There is another thing even if I like two Duelund's better (which I am not sure) I have to weigh there extreme cost against other improvements. I am now considering Duelund's for inductors.
Raul I do not think two caps introduce "more" distortion. I found the Duelund/Supreme tow work VERY well togther and I could hear stuff in the music I had never heard and could pick out instruments I did not know even there. I can not see that as distortion.
Raul I will agree that the only way to eval this is to di it one's own self. (everyone's ears different) I did not know I was going to like Duelund so much. I only bought them on site recommendation. I thought well why not. |
Volleyguy,
I believe the no plastic may indeed be a key feature. It would certainly explain why they sound different (superior) to all the others I have tested which ofcourse use plastic. This is of course based on my own findings. Others may well choose differently.
Regarding the inductors I found the difference compared to other air cores I've tried to be at least as big as with the caps. I use the CAST inductors, and have nothing to complain about. I once tried putting a powerful magnet against a foil coil I was using previously to the Duelunds, and could feel the inductor being ever so slightly magnetic. I tried the same with the Duelunds and could not feel a thing. May be they use a purer grade of copper?
I've found the caps to benifit of 14 days of full playing time, would be fascinating to know if you experience the same.
Your comment about the drivers being in phase doesn't relate to the components, but Duelund's Synchronous Cross Over I believe it's termed: http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/speak/STEEN.html from Harvey Rosenberg's homepage. |
Dear Volleyguy: Nice thread and a lot of fun you are having.
Speak about caps and caps's quality performance is almost always a relative subject opinion not an absolute one because any one of us have different music sound quality reproduction priorities and likes different kind of " colorations " due to audio system own limitations.
You are looking not for a " neutral " cap but for a " colored /distorted " one: +++++ " I want a warm not overly detailed sound .......they need lush smooth sounding caps " +++++
Nothing wrong with that it is your choice.
Of the passive electronic parts de caps IMHO are the ones that show more colorations/distortion and that you can hear it. Over the time I try several caps looking for the less " colored " one, looking for neutrality and one of the reasons that I was looking for neutrality was that a neutral cap ( in the speaker croosover ) is a way to know if the whole audio system is really right on target, a neutral cap can/could tell me if I have " problems " somewhere in the audio chain.
What happen if I choose a " colored " cap that with is own colorations hide those system quality performance in the audio chain?, well maybe I like it ( like in your case ) but what we are adding is more distortions to the final signal reproduction and ( at least ) for me this is not what I like to have and hear, my quest is to be nearer to the recording and this means: no distortions/colorations/noises/degradation on the signal trying to mantain its original integrity and this means too: accuracy and neutrality ( not analytical, lean or cold performance. ), looking for the less signal degradation in each link in the audio system chain.
Why I give you all this explanation?, well things happen ( and I'm not saying I'm right, it is only my opinion. ) that I already try/test ( over the time ) the Mundorf, Sonicap, V-caps, Duelund and many many other to name it here.
Till today I don't find any less colored/distorted cap that the Sonicaps. The Mundorf, Duelund and the like are not a neutal one items: far from there ( IMHO ).
I know that you don't like the Sonicaps and you know why you don't like it?, because it is telling you that your audio system has several quality performance " problems " in different audio links ( your vintage ones caps are too colored and yes I know the Scala: I owned it. ).
Do you know which is the signature quality difference performance between a distortion audio device ( cable, caps, resistors, inductors, tubes, etc, etc ) and other with less distortion?
well it is exactly what you report from the Sonicaps: " I hear less volume ", NO what you heard was not less SPL what you really heard was less DISTORTION that you " feel " like less SPL, believe me no doubt about.
Merganser already posted that you are not given the time to the different caps to settle down and I agree totally with him and I think that like me he is trying to help you.
In good shape let me to tell you how I'm looking you about this new " toy/game " to you: like a child with new toys that take it one and then other and the other and other: a lot of fun but almost nothing ( IMHO ) that really could help you in the long run, of course that it is your time and money.
Other thing that I'm worried about is that you are taking the opinion of those guys that made several test on 30+ caps ( the link that you posted ) where you don't know its real music/sound priorities and worse than that where you don't know how high or low are the distotions/colorations of their audio systems.
Along that the opinion of them about to " tame " the caps performance mixing different caps tell me that those people are not the best experts to take in count and let me explain about:
what they state and you follow is that you can compensate the distotions/colorations of one cap with the different distortions/colorations of other cap.
So what you have here is an absurd by any standard: that from two different colored/distorted different caps you achieve the right one!!!!!!
I'm sorry not agree with you about: from two distorted/colored caps ( adding its distortions ) you achieve a heavy distorted/colored performance not the inverse. That what you hear like it or not it is other subject but the reality is that you have more distortions. I don't like it but the important subject here is that like to you.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Stormen thanks for the post. Some people have got mad with me for not yet going to full break in. But the results are so astonishing with the Duelund it is amazing.
I wish you would not have told me about the CAST's being even better. I can not imagine and yes am using the VSF's. (just kidding)
I do have to get new inductors and was not even considering Duelund. Are they that good?
I was also trying to get some debate on why they are so good? So real and natural sounding, I suspect the no plastic. I read something about all drivers being in phase as well. (Duelund) |
My first post here, but found the topic very interesting so here goes:
I've done extensive comparisons of quite a lot of different capacitors, and have found the Duelunds to be without equal. Presently I use them in my home system and my car (I compete in pure passive car stereo).
The effect of using the Duelund caps (certainly also their resistors and inductors) has for me been akin to changing the entire system. I know how this sounds, but I am very very pleased with the results I'm getting.
Why they are apparently so much better beats me, it may be a combination of them using pure metal instead of the predominant use of plastic in the metalized designs and their brick like construction, but I don't know. To me anyway, the proof's in the listening.
By the way are you using the VSFs or the CASTs, I've got experience with both and the CASTs are really something.
Pics of my car if anyone's interested: http://www.buwaldahybrids.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2797 |
Volleyguy, what's this jump to Sonicap's and Duelund? We were talking about Sonicap vs Mundorf....remember? You're also choosing to totally ignore the fact that any and all of the caps you're trying out need to burn in before any judgement can be made. Again, 30 hours on the Sonicap's isn't even close to what they will sound like after 300 hours. I guarantee they will sound very different than they do now, they all will. Please try to understand that because so far, you are not listening to the advice you're getting. That said, I'm out of this one. Good luck, have fun and enjoy. |
Just a few hours and still trying to get a handle on the change. The first Duelund was a revalation. I am not hearing anything new and different with 2. Except maybe hands on the violin moving the strings. Somewhat higher noise floor and somewhat more dynamic but the sound is tilted upward but not as high as SIO/Duelund. I am not sure why but I enjoy the Duelund/Supreme combo better than Duelund/Duelund but a little quieter and easier to focus on and more natural. (but this may change as it is close and break in could come into effect)
I am very curious as to what the effect to the mid cap change is going to be? Eleanor Rigby on the vintage caps is almost not the same song! It is all cello (and sloppy cello) and you can almost not even hear the violin. You can not hear the layers from front to back or ANY interaction from the orchestra.
On the Duelund's there is a violin near Paul and 2 or 3 behind him and cello's farther back. On vintage there is no front to back of soundstage no primier violinist and back up ones.
The difference is astonishing from vintage to Duelund's.
There is no going back now. One can not go from knowing all what was happening in the song to hardly even hearing some instruements.
Help (Beatles) There is a playful bass line that does not even show up on the vintage caps!
So far it is
1. Duelund/Supreme
2. Duelund/Duelund
3. Supreme/SIO
4. SIO/Duelund
5. vintage
6. Supreme/Sonicap
7. Sonicap/Sonicap
5-7 could be changed for different reasons. But none of those combo's is near the top 4.
I will be ordering midrange caps and maybe inductors Friday or Monday. I have no idea what will work but will likely stick with some combo of Supreme/Duelund. I am just not sure whether to get inductors fisrt or caps? |
Second Duelund is in.
I will put it in tonight. I am expecting it to be too much and the speakers start to sound like the caps. All will not be lost as I need the Duelund for the other speaker. I just want to know if one Duelund is very good is two better? |
Merganser the difference from Sonicaps and Duelund's is like they are from a different planet. The one Duelund cap (paired with the Supreme) is a bigger differnce than going from my NAD CD player (20 years old) to the Linn Karik which was almost 8x the price. One thing I can say is crossover caps make the most difference of anything I have heard. The effects for the good and bad are HUGE!
Putting in the Duelund was like listening to the song for the first time! If you check back in my posts my WIFE could not believe the difference from Sonicaps and the old film in oil. She thought the one speaker was broken! The only problem was she was pointing to the old caps (as the one she liked) Horns for good or bad let you hear everything. |
Volleyguy, the Tempo rating on the Sonicap's is for use in electronics, not crossovers. In crossovers, I doubt you could tell much, if any difference after they have fully burned in. |
Merganser sorry to be so critical on Sonicaps. I do agree they sound "similiar" to Mundorf Supreme in that both are neutral. What I did notice when the Mundorf went in is that there was less congestion. The Mundorf's had more "life" but the sound was similiar. I think that explains how Tony Gee had the Sonicaps only slightly below Supreme and Tempo had Sonicaps in Class D. We all hear things slightly different.
The thing that shocked me with the Sonicaps is that putting them in made the Klipsch sound like a standard speaker. I never would have thought they could.
So far everything TempoElectric has said to me has been bang on. The Duelund they said was 2 or 3 x as good as Supreme but cost 6x as much and I even think that is likely true. The tough part in this hobby is 2 or 3x better (that is a lot better) and is worth a LOT to some and not so much to others and even what Tempo said on using the Duelund only in expensive speakers that you plan to keep. I agree with that.
If my Linn speakers needed a rebuild I would likely go Supreme. (if at all) The Duelund's would drive the cost up to high in which I could get better Linn speakers at that cost or go Aktiv and not need crossovers at all. |
Merganser.
I have only gave the Sonicaps 30hrs yes. They lacked dynamics (of Mundorf) more than smoothness. After 30hrs I installed one Supreme (in the circuit) and could notice a big improvement in dynamics. Sonicaps are not hard sounding to me just no life. I can not understand where the "life" would come from later. They are very tiny! To me #1 thing in the cap was to match the originals fantastic dynamics "live" feel. My wife did the double blind on the Sonicaps (not knowing which speaker they were installed in) and said Wow! that is a "HUGE" differenece those are wayyyyy better the problem was she was pointing to the vintage caps. I will reinstall the Sonicaps just to confirm feelings on them.
TempoElectric on (they rate Class D Sonicap Gen I)
"While not offensive, this is an inexpensive cap that sounds that way. Bargain hunters would be better served using a Russian Teflon or Mundorf MKP". |
Volleyguy, it's my personal experience that the Sonicap's are very, very close to the Mundorf's in preformance when used in speaker crossovers. I believe you only gave the Sonicap's 30 hours, which isn't anywhere near enough time for them to bloom. Again, you can not judge the sound of any of these caps until they run in as the sound at the end will be very different than at the beginning.
Another cap you may want to consider is Obbligato. I'm impressed with them and for the money, they are a true bargin. |
Johnk is not most tube gear from a lot the same design? How did the Fisher sound before the rebuild? I find that a lot of the rebuild people want to fix the old gear say your 500c that is not worth a lot of money so they put caps is based on the current market value and not the replacement value of product new.
I have found that with the Klipsch crossover rebuilds as well. I can understand why too. If one paid $1k to $1.5k for Lascala's a $200 or $250 crossover rebuild seems economical. What I found tough was I wanted as good as new in every way or better and that is not happening for $250!
I did like that Tempoelectric did rank the vintage caps (Sprague Vitamin Q) and said they were a smooth but somewhat soft sound, not the worst combo for horns.
It also shows that exactly what I found is that it is not that easy to replace the original oil caps that were "voiced" for the Klipsch. Maybe the Supreme with the SIO was better than new and Duelund/Supreme is much better (especially for critical listening) but the Duelund/SIO (at big $) not better than original in all ways.
My Fisher x100d is I believe the same as the 500c without the receiver. My main stuff was/is all Linn. I only bought the Fisher because it sounded so much better with the Lascala's. With the bad caps the Linn would peel your ears off! Before the caps went bad though it sounded very good with the horns.
I will be do some "voicing" with the Linn gear later. |
Thanks Volleyguy. I'm in the process of replacing cheap aluminium dome Vifas with Morel Supreme 110. Now it needs playing time to soften but is already much cleaner (underhung motor). I will decide what to do after break-in and with new interconnects (silver) I just bought. |
Kiljanka I can not say about the Audiocaps. I have never heard them. I also can not say if they work with Solens. I can only say I thought SIO was what I wanted and only bought the Duelund's because of the rave. I "thought" Supreme would be a workhorse cap that was good but boring but found it to be very good "with" the Duelund. My other Duelund will be here on the weekend and I will have a better grip on the effects of one or two Duelund's. I can say that you find a little about caps by what the other person thinks. Often I hear slight tilt with SIO and then when put with Duelund's not good. Of course this is only in my speakers and may not mean anything to any other. There of course is personal taste. I can say the Duelund's to me have a "live" feel like no other I have heard.
Teflon has a better rating in Electronics but I am only doing the crossovers and even then it was only out of necessity. (mine are worn out) |
Volleyguy - I suspected average performance of Solens but I bypassed them (10% of the value) with REL Audiocap PPT Theta. My review says that they are "clinical" "bright" and "forward" sounding - probably the worst possible cap but your link says that they are "sonic bargains" in the Tier B - "top shelf performers". Would you trust any review after that? |
Volleyguy - thanks for the link. I don't want to invest too much money in caps since my speakers are temporary. I would probably leave Solens in place and upgrade bad sounding caps(according to review) Audiocap Theta (I use as a bypass 10% of value). In that case I need just 0.47u and would look for something much better. What about teflon? |
Sorry dont know of any paper oil caps. I owned a 500c had it rebuilt by fischer doc, best tubes you could buy in it was fun. But not close to performance of my modern tube gear. Did ok on my vintage speaker collection. I was able to pick up some altecs off craigslist. Owner didnt know correct model num. So I thought what the heck might as well give them a look over, turned out to be model 19 and hes orignal owner with manual etc. Said he had another old speaker I saw a pair in walnut, grills covered in cat hair. I pulled grills and a near mint model 15 altec was revieled. He said he sent in both sets of woofers to GPA for new surounds. And bought both new in the late 70s. He remembered having to wait for 4 months for delivery back in the 70s but didnt remember much else. Nice set of cornwalls local to me but I have so much kit hard to find a place for it. |
Kijanki I have read that review (very good as well) I read so much cap stuff trying to avoid wasting money.
Kijanki here is a even more complete test with a lot the same results. I find this one even better!
http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm
I likely think this better if only I agree with the slightly different results. Tony Gee had the Sonicaps not much below the Mundorf Supreme I did NOT find this to be the case and agree with Tempoelectric on Class D for Sonicaps. I also agree with Tempo Electric on the Supreme being better than the Silver in Oil in balance and Tempo has the Supreme second only to the Duleund. Believe me I was not expecting that! (for the Supreme to be that good)(or am I trying to get a cap Holy war going)
I like that TempoElectric's tests were over several years and that some cheap caps were near the top and some companies cheaper caps (meaning Mundorf) ranked higher than the more expensive ones. Tempo also has some very expensive caps ranked very low. (meaning not all about $)
Tempoelectric is also says they recommend mixing caps to cancel the caps sound out. I will be trying that likely this weekend with 2 Duelund's on the tweeter. If I hear the effects of the Duelund I will have to say everything Tempo has said is correct to me. I hear NO cap with the Duelund/Supreme.
When this all started (rebuilding crossover) I contacted B&W to ask what they used in their new Nautilus. They said Supreme. I asked them not Silver in Oil and they said, no. They said they auditioned SIO but went with Supreme.
I am just saying Mundorf Supreme is a very good cap for a very reasonable price. I find Tony underrates it and agree with Tempo on the Supreme.
I am very glad though that both have taken the time to do this. |
Volleyguy - if you don't know this already - on the web side www.humblehomemadehifi.com under Main menu there is "Cap test" where they test and describe sonic impressions of about 24 different caps - including Mundorof oil. I got Solen before reading this and will probably change - maybe to Mundorof. Audiocap I used in parallel doesn't have good ratings either (inspite of price). Hope this will help. (If you have problems getting it I have printed copy) |
For the mids I am thinking of ordering in even numbers say increasing the amount of Duleund to Supreme until I have reached the cost benefit point. Does that make sense or is a bigger cap and fewer better? |
Ran another 6 hours on SIO with the Duelund. Impression still the same. I could hear from upstairs (speakers in the basement) the over emphasis on the top end.
I switched back in the Supreme just to listen before bed.
Love the balance. I also ordered another Duelund. Not expecting a improvement or much with two in fact I expect it to get bright. Of course I am just guessing.
Tempoelectric talked about using two differnt kinds of caps to cancel their signature's out. I know you guys say to wait until burn in fully done and I of course am not argueing but as the hours tick on all the caps my fav combo is still the same and by the same amount. I can see caps getting smoother but too much top end to go away???? Can't see why?
The tweeter caps are in series and I find them great together but there is only one 13uf midrange cap. So do two different caps work the same way in parallel??
This I have no idea what to do? How much Supreme how much Duelund? or even if the same thing applies to midrange? |
Put back the SIO with the Duelund's and I know guys wait till break in but I still hear a upward tilt. I hear caps with the Supreme's/Duleund's I could not fault.
I can not even hazard a guess at the best combo for the midrange. Any guesses where to start in % of 13uf Mundorf Supreme and % Duelund?
400 hour break in. Holy smokes I be till Christmas doing this. Someone mentioned how to do this without having to listen or have on for 400 hours.
So far I agree with Tempoelectric. That the SIO has somewhat a top end emphasis. The Supreme SIO combo was good but SIO Duelund is bright washed out and does not have the naturalness as with the Supreme's.
So far the combo is Supreme/Duelund or Duelund/Duelund (which I have not yet tried).
I know I know wait till break in but the Duelund/Supreme sounded awesome at 20 hours. |
I recommend and 2nd the earlier posts from the gentlemen who suggested that you be patient and let the caps form and break in thoroughly before you get too excited about the sound. Not only do these caps require significant time to fully form and flesh out their ultimate sound, but they will probably do the rollercoaster ride of going up and down with their sonic changes. Some of today's better film cap types will do the "one step forward, two steps backwards" sound on you, so try to give each combination of caps enough time of evaluation before you dismiss one or the other and put in another prematurely. Trust me that patience is a virtue regarding this cap break-in thing. I'm glad to see that you're having fun, though, in the meantime. That's what this hobby is all about. (O: |
Anyone know this?
http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm
Tempoelectric recommends mixing caps to cancel each other out. Has anyone tried this? I sure hope it works that way. A Supreme/Duelund combo would cut costs dramatically. If it makes the sound even better that would be excellent! Tempo says that each brand of cap has it's own signature.
May be why my intitial impression was that Duelund/Supreme seemed better the Duelund/SIO? (that combo did sound bright) I will check that more.
Any advice? |
Undertow
I always understood if you run caps in parellal that you get a higher % of performance from the better cap?
That is another question for some cap guys. I will need a 13uf midrange cap and undstood that if I ran say a Mundorf Supreme 10uf and a Duelund 3.3uf you ended up with say a fairly high % of what was capable of the better cap?
Undertow I heard distict improvements going to even one Sonicap and a Mundorf Supreme. (very cost effective too)
I heard improvement again with the SIO and Supreme. Then again with a Duelund and Supreme. So it can not just be the weakest link. (must be some combination of the two)
I will be ordering a second Duelund to see if two are twice as good as one. I expect not but am not sure.
I do not mean to say anything against Mundorf either guys as I thought them VERY good and only upon installing the Duelund's things go to another level. Also I would not consider Duelund's unless one really liked their speakers and were going to hold on to them for life.
I will still be using Mundorf's with the Duelund's for a cost benifet. I just have a itchy trigger finger to start buying more (Duelund's) to get on with this but am going to do the burn in.
I am thrilled with the sound but of course like everyone else if a Supreme would do it for a fraction of the cost and not hear a difference of course that is what I would do. |
A Day in the Life (Beatles) (one of their best in my opinion)
At the part where it goes from John singing to the orchestra to Paul. I always thought it was always violins and drums. There are horns there. Never heard them before!
These caps sort out stuff I did not believe possible! Classical music lovers would go nuts.
If you have read the post from the beginning you would know I had LOVED these speakers for a long time. Like Johnk LOVE the horn dynamics. Everything else was to boring. Then I got frustrated with the poor critical listening there were giving me. I could not tell one singer from another! I would have to go upstairs and listen to other system for when I wanted to crtical listen.
I would love to have a debate on what makes the Duelund so good. The vintage caps in oil always gave a very "live" feel but had reverb (maybe through the can?) that the Duleund's do not? Is it their hard encasing? I read something about cocoon silk all natural ingredients as well. As good as I think the originals I find the sound similiar with the Duelund's but better. A lot less loss of info. |
Well again remember something the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so you are ending up with 50% of this mind blowing sound from the mundorf being a part of the equation as well, meaning the dueland will not enhance information beyond what the mundorf is capable of in the first place, even if you are only running the dueland on the horns and the mundorf on your woofer.. So all in all your mundorf is probably dictating most of your flavor in combination regardless if the dueland is better or not.
In this case both are important contributing factors.. That being said no doubt the duelands are excellent, but I believe the Mundorf silvers are probably as good, but might take a certain application to show it. And yes over time the caps will sound different regardless. |
