Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
Honestly very close. The Duelunds have a very organic bottom end in full range production, the MR is very tight and powerful. It will come down to system synergy. No doubt if your more into tube sounding bass that the duelund will be more like that, the MR is a little more highlighted. Tuff call, however I do ultimately in a speaker application use a MR but then again in a woofer its a parallel cap, and for output caps I do prefer the Duelunds vs. the MR in some ways. So it will be very difficult to say which is totally better for all applications, however for straight out cost effective I can tell you the MR is right there overall. You have to spend A LOT more to do the duelunds. |
So I might be wasting my time here, I will try to collapse my own experimenting over the last yearÂ… However, due to the length of this thread I will get to the point for anybody trying to decipher what works best from the beginning in my opinion now. -Duelund, excellent in Speakers and ElectronicsÂ… I actually find at their cost that the better application is in full range electronic positions as I am currently using. -Mundorfs, hit or miss honestly. Certain applications excel using these some not. -Clarity MR, best all around performer for the money, speakers or electronics. -Jupiter HT new capsÂ… KILLER in electronics, so close to the Duelunds in tone and natural sound its silly and they are very reasonably priced. I have not heard these in speakers. I would choose these over Mundorfs almost always in a full range application especially due to cost. -Finally the best overall cost effective way to handle your Highs, and Mids in a Speaker crossover. Sure if you can go 100% Duelund and the cost is not going to make the project just unreachable go for it. However, bar none so far out of all the Jantzen, Duelund, Clarity cap, Jensen oils, Mundorf oils, and Audiocap Theta's I have heard go with a Base value cap you need from Clarity MR, for example if you need a 1.0 uF go with a Clarity MR, and then BYPASS it with a small Mundorf Silver/OIL no gold needed! The Clarity MR really is right between the Mundorf Silver/oil and Silver-Gold / Oil Fame in my opinion. And this combo really is the best I have heard using a MR with a Mundorf Silver / oil bypass on it. I was shocked when I accidentally did this combo, It actually bettered a Duelund VSF in my application and luckily the Duelund was a perfect value to use in my Phono tube amp and was then transferred to that output cap position saving me a TON of money on the speakers now using the MR / Mundorf silver/oil combo. This cost me something like 20 bucks for the small Mundorf Oils, and around 40 to 80 for the larger Clarity MR's so for under 100 bucks a cap position compared to 200 and 300 for the Duelunds which were not as impressive for the money vs. this combo anyway in my application is the way to go for most. By the way I have used the Vishay bypass caps as well in this application as mentioned on the Humble capacitor shootouts, they do work well, but for sure add a more "Plastic" sound where the Mundorf Oils really disappear and make everything wider, deeper, and warmer when combined with the MR's. I cannot explain it, but it is smooth / magic and musical for the cost projects out there, again easily beats all other combos mentioned above, I would stick to Clarity MR, Duelunds, or JupiterÂ’s for electronics however depending on the cost and size restraints. |
Back testing Jensen vs. Duelund as coupling caps. Looking at just getting complete Duelund in the signal path. I had taken out the amp with the Jensen electrolytic. Not knocking Jensen as the coupling caps are pretty good, but I do not care for the electrolyic cap. No Black Gate WKZ to compare too. Part of me would really like to try a paper in oil for the first cap in the power supply. Just do not want to spend a bucket load of money on a Duelund just to hear a theory. Might just finish off full Duelund signal path and call it a day. (except first cap in power supply) |
Ait I am going to have to do some more reading about this for sure as I am just floored by what the first cap does after the rectifier tube! Just unbelievable! In my opinion this may "the" most important part of the amp? It actually scares me! No one would know I had several $k in coupling caps and wires. I want to end this experiment early. This may be why I thought the vintage ASC amp (had a poly plastic tone to it) was the only bad sounding vintage amp I had with a dead feel to it that is until now. |
Hours on Jensen Electrolytic I would guess 25-30++. When doing the midrange speaker comparison cap test I found the vintage foil in oil to be the second best to Duelund and the difference not huge. (this confused and shocked me) I once said after putting the Duelund tweeter caps in the speaker I could not believe I was listening to digital. When the Jensen is in the amp power supply the sound is digital! The noise level is for sure up. Sound tense and dry. I am of the belief it is the liquid. The vintage electrolytic cap is bigger for the same volume. More liquid? In making caps smaller tighter and no doubt drier is there not a price to pay? If Duelund adds more oil on there wire and claim improvement would not having less electrolytic (goo) make sound drier? At this point this is one of the biggest differences in caps I have heard. (not in the new caps favour either) Yes more bass but much more noise. At the begining of the thread I put in Sonicaps in one speaker and left the other vintage foil and oil. My wife came to listen with absolute no knowledge of which was which and was floored how much better the one was. She said that is amazing! You should be thrilled, problem was she was pointing to the vintage foil in oil not the new caps. (with the hours on them) I think that is why some guy pays $15k for some old amp that may go up in smoke any time. Is it the old electrolytics? http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1291419107&/Marantz-Model--9-(Original)-tu Tempo claims that ASC caps beats all electrolyics PERIOD. I can imagine this. Now what about foil in oil in the power supply? I have already looked at Duelund but too pricey an experiment for me. As it stands now the vintage goooey sounding electrolytic is going back in and Duelund caps and oily wire everywhere. I will put at least 100+ hours on the power supply cap to be sure. |
Yes, in most designs the last PS cap is in the signal path, because the signal path is not isolated from the PS current path. The PS caps are still there in a parafeed type design, but they are isolated from the signal path by the circuit design. For example, a constant current source (CCS) supplying the plate voltage will have an almost infinite AC impedance, meaning that the signal can't get through it (high power supply isolation in other words) - a resistor does not even come close to that, and so a good portion of the signal will pass back through it. What you end up with in the parafeed design is two current loops, one for the signal and another for the power supply, instead of having them commingled. This is a bit of a complex subject, and in order to understand it you will need to read up on CCS theory, plate chokes, parafeed topology, and general amplifier circuit design (as I did). The DIYAudio tube forum is a good place to start. |
Duelund Yes I might be crazy. Like I have mentioned before how did some old tube amp pulverize my new SS amp at the start of this thread started my brain thinking and testing wanting to know why????? One of the things that shocked me the most was the old amp was "dead" quiet. I have 104db efficient speakers and the noise reduction was just astonishing compared to the new SS amp. I am starting to wonder now about new electrolytics. My formerly "dead" quiet amp EL84 has no idle hum (and did not before) at all with the Jensen electrolytic but a white noise at a level vastly higher than the vintage electrolytic cap. I can hardly keep myself from yanking it out! Are the new electrolytics packed tighter to make them so much smaller? The old one I took apart a lot of goo (electrolytic) with the paper kind of a gooey dead mass. Are the new electrolytics too focused on size??? (being small) Is the reason the ASC caps are thought so good (power supply) they have liquid around the cap. Is this causing a dampening? I expect so. On the coupling caps the vintage Vishay's are all dipped in some resin. The Ampohms are not. Is that why the Ampohms are noiser? Is this dampening the resonance? |
Of course you can always convert the amp to a parafeed-type configuation with a CCS or choke on the plate instead of a resistor and eliminate the PS caps from the signal path completely. That's what I did with my preamp and the results were astonishing. Horizontal load lines are a wonderful thing. Might be more mods than you are willing to do, however. |
I am going to start clocking in the hours for break in on the Jensen Electrolytic in power supply. I have some ASC poly caps here to compare in the same amp in the power supply. This will take some time for the Jensen electrolytic caps to break in. Then for the ASC's as well. (some modifications to make work) I even have a Mundorf Silver in Oil still around that could be put in as bypass. From Tempo's site the ASC is ranked higher anyway? Right out of the box aggressive and have a bright glare on the Jensen. (I hope for big improvement with break in) I took out the amp yesterday as I wanted to listen to some music and the Duelund/Jensen coupling cap'ed amp stares at me. Once again it is not as easy as one would think (or at least me) to replace old parts and get some big improvement (at least out of the box) as long as the old parts were working correctly. |
Ampohm Copper Foil vs. Vintage I thought they sounded very similiar till hearing them in direct comparion at the same time. The Vishay ERO FOL II sounds better. The Ampohm has a distinct tilt in to the upper mid range in sound. I do not care for it at all. Might work for you if you wanted that effect? On to compare Jensen Electrolytic vs. vintage. |
Doing the Ampohm vs. vintage comparision now. Ampohm is almost exactly 2x as large in volume. So in theory should have more dynamics. Initial first minutes is like I thought close to vintage. I commented before I did not know if I could tell the difference. It is not like Jensen or Duelund. The Jensen Electrolytic (not yet in) concerns me vs. vintage as the vintage is at least 10x the volume in size. Will the small one sound better? The Black Gate is much larger than Jensen but not as big a vintage. |
Morgan Jones on Capacitors "This can be further generalized that high quality capacitors tend to be physically large for their value of capacitance". I remember noting this a long time ago comparing Sonicap vs. Mundorf Supreme that the Supreme had much more dynamics, of course be much larger in size. This same effect was also noted comparing Duelund VSF vs. CAST. I will be comparing in direct comparison Ampohm Copper Foil in Mylar vs. vintage Vishay Foil in Mylar. (likely Aluminum) I had noted that they sounded extremely alike by memory. If the new (and much larger) Ampohm is better and logic says it should be being new and copper and bigger. I am going to replace all of the smaller value caps with Ampohm. I would love to use Duelund everywhere but everyone knows why not. $$$ |
Jensen Electroltyic caps in. I have a Black Gate to use as comparison. (starting to put in tomorrow) I was talking to Peter Qvortrup about power supply caps. His take Polyester sounds fine 250-450v and polypropylene does not. (can not argue with that) In higher voltage 1kv both fine but polyester better. He did mention that the diodes are very noisy and have a jagged wave form. So not clean power supply. (but suspects this only part of the problem) I do not mean to say the Duelund/Jensen capped amp does not sound excellent, it does! It is the timing is different/natural in the tube rectified amp. I fully expect the tube rectified EL 84 to sound of course excellent with the Duelund caps. |
I have been checking around for a WKZ Black Gate to compare against a VK series that is all that is left at Partsconnexion with the phase out. I contact Audio Note by chance to see if they would sell one and Peter e-mailed back. Peter said (and I asked him if I could quote him) "Hate to say this but it is a waste of a good Black Gate to put it in with a solid state rectifier"! I thought it was too funny. Maybe I was wasting my time (and $$$) trying to get an SS rectified amp to sound as good as an EL84. One can clearly hear that a tube rectified is more musical to me. We know where Peter stands. |
SS vs. Tube rectifier. Looking for info on this. To me there is for sure something natural about the sound tube rectifier. Even the (SS based power supply) amp with all the Duelund and Jensen caps sounds somewhat mechanical (although quieter) compared to all vintage cap EL84. It did before the caps went in as well so no fault of Duelund or Jensen. (the SS rectified sounds wayyy better than it did but still mechanical) SS rectified sounds more mechanical to me. (maybe Black Gates in the power supply solve this problem?) Tube rectified has different timing. The question is why?? Diodes? Big Electrolytic power supply?? Of all the amps from the same company the simplest one with the fewest electrolytic in the power supply sounds best. |
Power supply I bought several vintage tube amps (all same brand) for tests. I started all mods on the worst sounding of them which was my Fisher 500c. The reason for this if I messed something up it was the worst sounding amp anyway. Now after listening to the EL84 (all vintage) the 500c hammers it with all Jensen (copper paper tube) and Duelund VSF caps. So my worst, now my best. (by far) How did they compare to new? I had new SS (pre and amp 10k here) and ALL of the vintage amps sounded better. (wayyyyy quieter) My worst amp (the most $$$) has been long sold. To my ears it was the best SS I could find in my budget. What about a new tube amp? Not a bad idea at all, but I would like Duelund caps all through out. (they are clearly audible over even Jensen) A top notch power supply, Jensen, Black Gate etc. Silver Duelund solid core wire would be nice as well. Problem an amp like this is far from cheap! Hmmmmm No cheap answers. |
Micr0 This is very interesting. I was under the assumption power supply of course affects the amount of reserves and how quickly and quiet the sound. I did not even think it could affect the tone? Part of the reason I did not want to even post it. I just shelved the amp. I remember reading that Leak used a paper in oil power supply in the Leak Stereo 20 (never heard one) and also hearing great things about the Leak's natural tone. I did not want to say it but poly in the power supply sounded the same to me as it did in the speaker crossover. Leak (Quad II's as well Paper in Oil power supply) http://www.bassboy.com.au/getreel/site/classicamps/files/amps/leak/tl12/amp.htm http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/quad2.html I have 2 EL84's same brand. I am going to have to compare Jensen power supply vs. ASC. |
Power Supply I had my tech guy do a partial power supply rebuild on one of my EL84 amps using ASC poly caps in the power supply. He rolled his eyes at me even worrying about the "sound" of something not in the signal path. The amp had a hum after that and he could not hear on his test speakers. I only used it for a few hours or so. I thought he had changed some of the coupling caps to poly as the amp sounded very different than every one of the vintage amps I have. I took off the bottom plate to find out he did not change any coupling caps. The amp had more bass than the old vintage electro caps but sounded slower and had change in tone. I did not like it. Can power supply caps affect sound? Not just smothness and power but tone? |
JohnK posted a long time ago that he felt capacitors were not the most important and transducers were. John makes a good point as it is the transducer that actually makes the sound so of course this part is going to matter! I was only pointing out how big the sound difference is with Duelund caps. I was out listening to the friend who has Khorns. I have been a little hesitant to post as he may see this and I did not want to upset him. He has different (cheaper) driver not the Alnico (Western Electric based) ones in the older Klipsch. His speakers do not even sound anywhere near the same. Is it the Duelund caps, inductors and Silver wire? How much is the transducer and ferrite magnet? I can not say? We used my CD player and he had the same amp less Duelund and Jensen caps. I have not been doing much tests lately as I have been replacing vinyl. I bought Jimi Hendrix albums just released. |
After being not really impressed with the Bealtes Mono CD box set, I just bought Jimi Hendrix on vinyl that just came out (2010) and it seems not bad to me on first listen. A little harshness in the upper freq. I would like to know what equipment they used? Duelund you really need to upgrades to vintage equipment. A vintage tube mixing board with your caps would be awesome. These caps need to be in professional gear. |
Took my old Linn Karik CD player to the friend who bought the Khorns after hearing my system. It has been a long time and many Duelund parts and my speakers sound nothing like original. What I wanted to know was how does an old $4 (I think) Cd player compare to a new $1k player. He has one of those new OPPO SE Blu-ray players. First time I have heard one. It did not sound good to me on CD (forward) but when given a Blu-ray???? Hmmmm? I have asked him to bring it over to hear on my system for better reference. Anyone heard these Blu-ray players? Clearly the format is promising. |
I have done more extensive listening to the Jensen Paper vs. Duelund VSF. often on Mono CD's just to be sure. The differences With Duelund sounds are indentified much easier less random sounds. (this makes music more enjoyable) Duelund has much more natural reverb and tone of each instrument. Duelund has less midrange drone. What causes mid range drone??? Jensen sounds more mechanical. Duelund sounds much more rich liquid and complex. I will in fact not likely be doing any more comparisions except within the Duelund range. (I will leave that to you guys) The thread is starting to sound like an advertisment for Duelund. I can easily hear the difference. I wonder if it is caused by the silk??? It is the same to me since I first put my first Duelund cap in the crossover. Liquid sound. I could not believe it then as I hated my dry CD player before that tweeter cap. It is the same today each time I put in one more of those caps (or wires) the system is more natural with better tone and less random noise. I do not want to be critical of Jensen Copper Paper tube caps as I think them very good capacitors as I have said before. Duelund VSF is just that much better. |
I will be having some more time in the next month for some more tests. I have been digging into the recording process more as it seem there was a huge improvement in the late 40's early 50's. It seems the Neumann U47 mic is credited with much of this. The U47 shares much in common with the "Hitler mic". The early U47 used the same capsule as the Hitler Mic. The so called "Hitler Mic" was a blank cheque government design given to Neumann so they could make a mic so good it would capture emotion not just sound. http://www.wunderaudio.com/CM7sound.html I understand the early U47 capsules were very complex (and costly) to make. Duelund have you ever thought about redoing one of these U47's vintage mics with your Silver wire and Silver CAST caps??? We might actually end up with something better than the world has ever seen/heard! Going back to more regular comparisons here soon and want to start using some Silver in the amps. |
Years ago I had built up ladder type resistor bridges made from the then state of the art Vishay resistors to replace the cheap low quality sand cast resistors in my SC4's. When I told John Dunlavy of what I was about to do he said it would make no difference and I was about to waste $600.00 in greenbacks. I moved forward with the project and the difference was staggering. Much lower noise floor, details I never heard before in the backround.. speed and clariy everywhere. I would love to compare a new resistor bridge made of TX2575's and a new Duelund. The bridge buildup would certainly cost more. Wow something more expensive than a Duelund component! Tom |
A low-TCR resistor like TX2575 sounds detailed, clear & quiet in the manner of a good coupling cap. However it is tricky to compare the effect of a resistor swap to a cap swap, as there are more resistors in path(at least in electronics) and the effect of changes are cumulative. If the electronics are good enough you can hear the sound of a single resistor, particularly around input of phono or coming off DAC and I/V sections. The technology to manufacture a low-noise resistor like TX2575 was simply unavailable in vintage era. |
IMO TX2575 is unsurpassed and make a difference almost everywhere they are used as budget permits. They are clean without a trace of sterility and are warm where they need to be. They are limited to .5W, which in crossover may mean a costly bridge of multiple resistors with degrading solder joints. Texas Components manufactures a bridge version with up to three elements in series. Maximum value per element is 100K. |
Undertow, Texas Components is a manufacturer in Texas which makes their own resistors using the Vishay Z-foil (part # TX2575). I just ordered 4 of them yesterday. Just call them and order whatever you want (1 part minimum!), and they will make any custom value you need for no extra charge. http://www.texascomponents.com/ . |
The Z's I used to replace a few of the Dales's in the Wyred4 Sound preamp volume control.. select values that are in my normal listening range made for a vey nice improvement in noise floor and transparency. Plus there are ones that are always engaged in the signal path those too were swaped out for the Z's. I have also replaced the non inductive wire wounds in my poweramps with the Duelunds making for the same type of improvement as the preamp. Tom |
