Hi Plato,
Good to hear your resting well,
Regards,
Bob
Hi Palewin,
I understand what you are saying about the bikes as my dad was a semi pro racer in Italy before we came here and when we went back to visit did show me the big difference in bikes.
Best,
Bob |
I can't stay away from this thread, since my two largest lists of "favorite URLs" are cycling (lots of years as an amateur racer) and audio (about as many years listening to music). One can get a bicycle for $200 (Walmart), $3K (lots of very good race bikes) and $8K and up (top of the line pro race bikes). There is a huge difference between the $200 and $3K bikes (weight, precision of components, efficiency of the frame) but much less between $3K and $8K. But even between the $3K and $8K bikes, there will be (small) differences in weight due to the quality of the carbon fiber, and aerodynamics due to the carbon fiber wheels. Now lets try and apply this to power cables. First, just as with bikes, there must be a point of diminishing returns, at which point the improvements become very small, possibly insignificant (in the bike case, 99% of the time the same rider would win on either the $3K or $8K bike). So we would love to know where power cable diminishing returns set in. One can buy or make the well-regarded (at least in the AA forum) Audio Asylum PC (shielded Belden wire, Wattgate or P&S connectors) for about $70, and I don't know how much difference there is between that and a $1000 PC (I use the AA cords). Also between the bikes one can measure the differences that money buys in weight, aero drag, and bearing friction; unfortunately with power cables the differences are restricted to what the buyer hears, there is little measurable difference other than wire gauge and resistance (which definitely don't correlate with price). It will always be difficult to compare one case where differences are entirely subjective (power cables) with another where they are largely objective (bicycles and to some extent active electronic components). |
Mb9061, take a walk over to the Bottlehead forum on Audioasylum and search for posts with the word "gin" in them. A couple of gents there infuse their own gin, using cheap vodka as a starter (filter it through a Brita water filter several times and the cheap vodka will improve in quality, or so the story goes).
Samhar, whenever people compare any product or service to something obtainable at Costco or Walmart, the best way to deal with it is just agree with them. Simply by saying that they have demonstrated their argument is irrefutable. Eventually, when all health care in the U.S. comes from the part-timer behind the glass wall at RiteAid, all banking comes from ATMs, and huge numbers of people never venture out because they live off the 'net and 'last-mile' delivery services, people will wake up and wonder what happened. Sometimes I think that the portrayal of American society in the opening chapter of Neal Stephenson's novel 'Snowcrash' is closer to being possible than any of us think. |
Where did you find such a reasonably priced cable!!! Seriously I'm very fortunate that my wife will listen and when she does she can hear the improvements so she knows why I'm spending mo money. When I had an optical shop I was always asked why I charged what I did (more than Costco etc.) and I would say your paying for quality materials and my knowledge and experience. |
Gray Goose goes beyond my expectations. Maybe that's just my imagination since all vodkas should be the same if they're crystal clear and 80 proof. Or maybe the proof is in the hangover.
I think most people are of sane enough mind to determine if what they're spending money on is worth it or not and thankfully most dealers and manufacturers do offer demo periods. I still want to know what's in a BMI cord though (or who this BMI guy is exactly). I'm in the wrong line of work... |
If it does what you want it to do and then goes beyond your expectations and experiences such that you really are floored then it is worth what it costs. If it doesn't do it, it doesn't do it and anything more than free is probably to much.
There will always be better whatevers and worse, we make decisions, we choose our happiness as it is, if a $1,000 cable does it fine, it not look elsewhere |
They also have bikes that cost $200 and probably resemble the $1,000 bike to a large degree. How much different is the technology to make the $200 bike from the $1,000 bike?
Parts aside, can it be that much different? It must be in the ride!
When you move up the ladder from a stock power cord to a $1,000 power cord, the difference in the sound is the advancement and reason for purchasing it. With the cable, the sound is your ride! |
See where a guy has a BMI power cord on here for $15k or so. I doubt any manufacturer will fully divulge the markup on some of these cables, but what is it that goes into a $15k power cord to justify that price? Uranium?
You just answered the question for yourself and others. What could justify that price? Nothing, and there is no amount of anything that could. |
Bikes run the gamut of prices too (google Trek and price one of their Madones). Even water goes from free to expensive (and tap water generally tastes poor). If your friend is getting a chuckle over the power cord, show him a picture of a Trek Madone.
I own a number of Shunyata cords and yeah, they're pricey (I didn't pay full retail and they're still ridiculously expensive). That said, they do make a significant difference (some make as much a difference as switching amplifiers). Even cheap USB cables have noticeable sonic differences.
I see where a guy has a BMI power cord on here for $15k or so. I doubt any manufacturer will fully divulge the markup on some of these cables, but what is it that goes into a $15k power cord to justify that price? Uranium?
Grant Samuelson may weigh in on this thread eventually since it's peppered with Shunyata. From other responses he's posted, he has valid points about R&D, inventory costs, product runs, labor, machinery costs, etc. No manufacturer is doing this to just feel good about themselves and not get a markup out of it, but that said there is a point where you have laugh at some of this stuff (including a $15k power cord). |
Just like all hobbies there are those of us who get obsessive about them, or who get obsessive about having the very best.
Perhaps a better analogy would be if your friend decided to add a $1K campagnelo crank set to improve his Treks performance. |
Yeah, Bobf, this is exactly the kind of thing I think about when I buy a 30-day prescription for a drug that costs $150 and then you see the generic (let's take Ambien for example) that costs $15. But since I take the drug, I can't really lose sleep over not paying the extra $135 for the "intellectual property" of the brand name...
I guess it just bugs me that a lot of drugs cost less than $1 to manufacture but cost big bucks when you buy them.
I stopped taking that stuff as it did bad things for my short term memory. Now I'm sleeping just as well without it. |
I like Dweller's response.I suppose you don't think people making cables don't spend many hours trying to make improvements? Are they supposed to sell that time for free?
This can be said about any audio component unless your from the group that thinks everything sounds the same.Do we all work for free or expect to get paid for our hard work?
Just some thoughts.
Best,
Bob |
Misc. Thoughts:
1. You're buying "Great Sound" not equipment.
2. If you can't hear an improvement, don't buy it.
3. You are paying for someone's talent and inspiration not just for the stuff the thing is made of.
4. If you can build an identical substitute for less -do it.
5. A fool and his money are soon parted.
|
Nasaman:Thanks for starting this. I know that your opening a can of worms, with this topic. And going to receive some flak from the crowd that thinks that there is a great amount of R&D when it comes to this nonsense of ultra expensive power cords and cables.With there large gauged o twisted,curled,braided and dipped in gold with Platinum infused over sized spade lugs with the magic mystery insulated new and improved technology to the solid silver 15-amp IEC. This is an industry{Cable} run by many looking for a quick buck and playing on insecurity's of many thinking that this will deliver the goods. I fell for it to, so I am talking from experience and not immune to the chicanery of this marketing hype with no real science to back up the claim. I don't trust ears of critics telling me as soon as they popped this in or after the so called burn in period their jaw just hit the floor. I would like to be the emergency room doctor attending to all that have had their jaws suddenly hit the floor? Your assessment of the Trek mountain bike is right on target when comparing it's price $1000.00 to 2meters of wire in the same price range. I'm sure you tried with embarrassment and gave it your best with convincing your friend that there is great deal of difference in sound when using the $1000.00 power cord then a lesser one? But in the end you couldn't even convince yourself so finally and sadly you did your own comparison and realized the price does not justify the amount of material and R&D. I am going to get allot of flak over this.But hek who cares this is Audiogon, the greatest place to be. |
